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sentrixmorane
06-25-2015, 02:03 AM
Guys this game looks AMAZING which is why I’m making this post. I wouldn’t bother with a game I have no interest in. I want to see this game become as unbelievably awesome as it has the potential to be.

First major problem.
The sword seems to appear as the primary weapon of choice in the game. Its certainly featured most prominently. Guys, apart from the viking period, the sword was NEVER a primary battlefield weapon (and in the case with vikings swords were very rare, hard to craft, and valuable). The sword was a sidearm, a backup weapon.
https://youtu.be/VA9PfiNcI0s?t=473
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Afv2slSIs
So to fix this, keep the swords, don’t get rid of them, but PLEASE put them in their correct combative context. Every character in the game should be carrying a sword (either arming sword or longsword) as a backup. the primary weapons used on actual battlefields are polearms, bows, spears, pikes, and specialized armor fighting weapons like the warhammer and mace. This means to game needs a disarming and sundering mechanic, so if the character loses their weapon they would then whip out there sword and keep on fighting. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE fix this as it would make this awesome looking game SO much better.

Second major problem
The armor in the game looks amazing, if only the game let it actually function the way armor is supposed to. Seriously, like every attack that connects in this game shows weapons chopping through hardened steel armor like it was butter. It’s like they’re not even wearing it!
The game shows people's heads being cut off through mail. this NEVER happens. contrary to popular belief, mail is actually very effective armor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtJS1MziI98
There’s a really easy and awesome way to fix this. Get rid of hit points or health, I mean realistically one solid hit from any medieval weapon will kill a person, and transfer it to the armor. So every hit that lands doesn’t injure the opponent but does increasing damage to their armor so when it eventually fails the next hit will be an instant kill, while critical hits represent an attack than lands in the gaps and openings in the armor.
This would work well enough though realistically there’s no hope for a sword to chop through hardened steel plate.

Also I hope you are using the correct names and terminology. A LONGSWORD IS NOT A ONE HANDED SWORD!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb2Cvd_amEc

Solid_Altair
06-25-2015, 08:10 AM
Your suggestions towards realism are very good. But you're basically asking them to do a whole different game. I'm pretty sure the animations they got so far were quite expensive. Although the game is remarkably realistic, I don't think they mean to push towards full realism.

Are you familiar with Sui Generis? It's Kickstarter PC game that seems to consider some of your points.

Frane89
06-25-2015, 09:37 AM
No.
For Honor is build around certain mechanics and gimmicks.
It's not trying to be a historically accurate war simulator. More like a sport, like kendo, for example.

They're making their own thing. Changing the core mechanics for the sake of realism doesn't make sense here.

TrikRisk
06-25-2015, 10:14 AM
Dude, this game is not trying to be historically accurate otherwise it wouldn't even have vikings and samurais in the same game. It's a fantasy world, they said it themselves. But off course it's a fantasy world with no extreme fantasy like spitting fire or something. It's a reimagine of what the world could have been, they are not trying to be historically nor "armoury" accurate. They just want to show that the more armor one class has the more defense he has, thats just it. and about the swords, there wont be primary ranged combat, this game is a duel based game, by up-close ranged weapons

sentrixmorane
06-25-2015, 02:39 PM
There’s no question this is a fantasy but it's CLEAR the devs are trying to be very accurate within each cultural setting, which is very important. Even though it’s fantasy it needs to come across as realistic and thereby immersive. Why do we hate that Legolas walked on air in the last hobbit movie even though the movie was a fantasy? because it destroyed the fragile realism and immersion the movie was trying to create. Internal consistency is even more important in fantasy because you’re dealing with ultimately an unrealistic foundation.
From what I’ve seen the armor designs in ‘For Honor’ look incredible and with the knight combat they actually have sword attacks with the crossguard, using the longsword like a hammer. This is actually a very historically accurate and AWESOME use and function of that sword, one that is largely unknown, BUT THEY’VE INCLUDED IT IN THE GAME! I have NEVER seen any other game incorporate such accurate sword combat so this really says something about how accurate the devs want this game to be.

If they’ve gone THIS FAR for accuracy, which has added a level of awesome to this game that I find hard to express, missing some of the more glaring facts about medieval combat (mentioned in the initial post) does the developers of this game and the game itself a tremendous disservice.

I don’t think they would need to change any animation, keep them all they’re INCREDIBLE, just add some more for the primary battlefield weapons. Come on, don’t we all want to see halberds in this game? BRING ON THE HALBERDS!

Eiddard
06-25-2015, 03:21 PM
There’s no question this is a fantasy but it's CLEAR the devs are trying to be very accurate within each cultural setting, which is very important. Even though it’s fantasy it needs to come across as realistic and thereby immersive. Why do we hate that Legolas walked on air in the last hobbit movie even though the movie was a fantasy? because it destroyed the fragile realism and immersion the movie was trying to create. Internal consistency is even more important in fantasy because you’re dealing with ultimately an unrealistic foundation.
From what I’ve seen the armor designs in ‘For Honor’ look incredible and with the knight combat they actually have sword attacks with the crossguard, using the longsword like a hammer. This is actually a very historically accurate and AWESOME use and function of that sword, one that is largely unknown, BUT THEY’VE INCLUDED IT IN THE GAME! I have NEVER seen any other game incorporate such accurate sword combat so this really says something about how accurate the devs want this game to be.

If they’ve gone THIS FAR for accuracy, which has added a level of awesome to this game that I find hard to express, missing some of the more glaring facts about medieval combat (mentioned in the initial post) does the developers of this game and the game itself a tremendous disservice.

I don’t think they would need to change any animation, keep them all they’re INCREDIBLE, just add some more for the primary battlefield weapons. Come on, don’t we all want to see halberds in this game? BRING ON THE HALBERDS!

Man, there will be halberds, just check this image.

http://static9.cdn.ubi.com/resource/es-ES/game/forhonor/game/helmet-iron-legion.png

Frane89
06-25-2015, 03:32 PM
Come on, don’t we all want to see halberds in this game? BRING ON THE HALBERDS!
Yes, I would very much like to see halberds in the game.
I'm just against making swords mainly a sidearm and ranged weapons being a primary weapon.

MisterWillow
06-25-2015, 08:38 PM
There’s no question this is a fantasy but it's CLEAR the devs are trying to be very accurate within each cultural setting, which is very important. Even though it’s fantasy it needs to come across as realistic and thereby immersive. Why do we hate that Legolas walked on air in the last hobbit movie even though the movie was a fantasy? because it destroyed the fragile realism and immersion the movie was trying to create. Internal consistency is even more important in fantasy because you’re dealing with ultimately an unrealistic foundation.

From what I’ve seen the armor designs in ‘For Honor’ look incredible and with the knight combat they actually have sword attacks with the crossguard, using the longsword like a hammer. This is actually a very historically accurate and AWESOME use and function of that sword, one that is largely unknown, BUT THEY’VE INCLUDED IT IN THE GAME! I have NEVER seen any other game incorporate such accurate sword combat so this really says something about how accurate the devs want this game to be.

If they’ve gone THIS FAR for accuracy, which has added a level of awesome to this game that I find hard to express, missing some of the more glaring facts about medieval combat (mentioned in the initial post) does the developers of this game and the game itself a tremendous disservice.

I don’t think they would need to change any animation, keep them all they’re INCREDIBLE, just add some more for the primary battlefield weapons. Come on, don’t we all want to see halberds in this game? BRING ON THE HALBERDS!

That's a false equivalency. There is absolutely no indication that you can walk on air, or surf on a shield, or do a spinning flip, or any of the other flashy nonsense that Legolas does in the Middle Earth movies. If your sense of realism is so fragile that it can be shattered by the fact that swords are primary weapons, then I think you need to reassess your priorities.

It's as realistic as it needs to be to do the job that it wants to, and the job it wants to do is give you the thrill of dueling someone in a way that is strategic, engaging, and most importantly fun. Having not played it, I can not honestly tell you if they succeeded, but from the gameplay shown and the various testimonials of people who have gives me a boat-load of confidence.

They're trying to exist in a space between history and legend, and legend has always romanticised the sword, so to not have knights, vikings, and samurai brandishing what could be an Excalibur would be silly.

That's not to say, of course, that they shouldn't put in other weapons---I'm pretty sure, given that there are various classes, that there will be a variety, including halberds, maces, axes, and whatnot---but getting so bogged down in historical accuracy that you relegate swords to a back-up is daft.

If you would like something that's more 1-to-1 mediæval simulation, check out Kingdom Come: Deliverance (https://www.kingdomcomerpg.com/), which I'm excited for as well. But that's a very different game.



The armor in the game looks amazing, if only the game let it actually function the way armor is supposed to. Seriously, like every attack that connects in this game shows weapons chopping through hardened steel armor like it was butter. It’s like they’re not even wearing it!
The game shows people's heads being cut off through mail. this NEVER happens. contrary to popular belief, mail is actually very effective armor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtJS1MziI98
There’s a really easy and awesome way to fix this. Get rid of hit points or health, I mean realistically one solid hit from any medieval weapon will kill a person, and transfer it to the armor. So every hit that lands doesn’t injure the opponent but does increasing damage to their armor so when it eventually fails the next hit will be an instant kill, while critical hits represent an attack than lands in the gaps and openings in the armor.
This would work well enough though realistically there’s no hope for a sword to chop through hardened steel plate.

This, however, I do like. It would be really cool to have pieces of armour physically chip, dent, and break off as you get hit. I imagine something like this isn't present because, again, they're going for fun over realism. You could always just view your life bar as armour durability?

They could always have a trade-off, like, each striking/defend position has its own durability bar, so if you get hit on the left a set number of times, then your pauldron breaks and if you get hit there again, you're dead, but you can still take hits on the top and right. That might add another layer of strategy to combat, say, if your opponent wants to focus on one area, it will kill quickly, but will also make them more predictable. On the other hand, a system like that might slow down combat too much, because instead of one life bar, there are three.

Still an intriguing idea.

Barred
06-25-2015, 08:38 PM
Guys this game looks AMAZING which is why I’m making this post. I wouldn’t bother with a game I have no interest in. I want to see this game become as unbelievably awesome as it has the potential to be.

First major problem.
The sword seems to appear as the primary weapon of choice in the game. Its certainly featured most prominently. Guys, apart from the viking period, the sword was NEVER a primary battlefield weapon (and in the case with vikings swords were very rare, hard to craft, and valuable). The sword was a sidearm, a backup weapon.
https://youtu.be/VA9PfiNcI0s?t=473
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Afv2slSIs
So to fix this, keep the swords, don’t get rid of them, but PLEASE put them in their correct combative context. Every character in the game should be carrying a sword (either arming sword or longsword) as a backup. the primary weapons used on actual battlefields are polearms, bows, spears, pikes, and specialized armor fighting weapons like the warhammer and mace. This means to game needs a disarming and sundering mechanic, so if the character loses their weapon they would then whip out there sword and keep on fighting. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE fix this as it would make this awesome looking game SO much better.

Second major problem
The armor in the game looks amazing, if only the game let it actually function the way armor is supposed to. Seriously, like every attack that connects in this game shows weapons chopping through hardened steel armor like it was butter. It’s like they’re not even wearing it!
The game shows people's heads being cut off through mail. this NEVER happens. contrary to popular belief, mail is actually very effective armor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtJS1MziI98
There’s a really easy and awesome way to fix this. Get rid of hit points or health, I mean realistically one solid hit from any medieval weapon will kill a person, and transfer it to the armor. So every hit that lands doesn’t injure the opponent but does increasing damage to their armor so when it eventually fails the next hit will be an instant kill, while critical hits represent an attack than lands in the gaps and openings in the armor.
This would work well enough though realistically there’s no hope for a sword to chop through hardened steel plate.

Also I hope you are using the correct names and terminology. A LONGSWORD IS NOT A ONE HANDED SWORD!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb2Cvd_amEc

I agree with this poster totally.
Agains 'tanks' knights in full plate swords would not be used unless you were pushing it through eye slits ect as a coup de grate. The main 'English' weapon was a war hammer, the hammer was used to damage joints therefore restricting movement or causing concussion. Once immobile the reverse of the hammer was used, this was a spike designed to go through plate, mail, gambechon then flesh. Though normally Knights were ransomed not killed outright.

Vikings primary weapon, was fear! They used a nasty reputation before a shield wall was formed (this I would love to see in the game.) the primary weapon when one was used was an axe, these ranged between throwing axes and boarding axes, though most just used the same one that they used on wood.
Swords were fairly rare, high status weapons some were even late Roman!

I can't say as much about Samuri as I have not used their bows and armour.

I spent over 10 years making and using weaponry and armour for various combat society's in the UK.

Barred
06-25-2015, 08:42 PM
I agree, this IP if done right has so much promise.

If anyone thinks I am anti For Honor, far from it I already have a pre-order in.

Warphorntek
06-29-2015, 06:02 PM
You are asking (as was said) for throw a lot of stuff away and remake it. There are things i d like to see and things i disagree with. I think armor duration can be ment like HP bar. You ll survive few hits. About penetration ...... You just want too much stuff ... I think they wont make up this post. I would try to play game like this but at same time i am saying to myself isnt it better as it is ? I mean this is going take a lot of time . Maybe its too much realistic for my taste. I dont know. I would try .

FrostFire404
07-05-2015, 04:27 PM
Dont forget that its a game which is crossing 3 type of warrior legacy. Did you even read in historic book that knights fight samurai or vikings? They have not the same temporal history, so i think that what the developpers are researching for is to have this 3 great warrior leggacy clash each other for make the most epic battle game ever (my opinion). If you are researching for realistic gameplay, forget it, remember what i said : knights, vikings and samurai have never met on history (maybe they had few contact for vikings and knights, but not as an invasion like we saw on the video presentation of E3 2015, and nothing for samurai). Its only to made an epic game with a realistic gameplay "art of battle", i guess. And i like that !!! :D

Havemercy87
07-05-2015, 05:32 PM
Hey guys, all the posts are well said. I think the ideas of armor depletion and disintegration is awesome, but honestly I don't plan on seeing the second part, to much animation for that and I'd cus up a storm if they postponed the game just to get that in there. Armor depletion would be an excellent idea and something the devs might want to consider using. Admittedly I'd be happy to play as is if it makes the release sooner as all of you would be, don't lie we all know it :)

abexuro
07-05-2015, 05:41 PM
I see your point with sword realism, but as others have said your suggestion goes a bit too far in the context of this game. Hell, they have killstreak rewards, or something similar to that. Lets remove that and a lot of the hud before we start talking about the right use of a sword.
I do however think you make a good point about the armor, though again imo you're going a bit far in the other direction. Maybe just change the animations slightly so they don't cut through solid metal anymore or something similar so the strikes are more believable.

Anawer
07-05-2015, 06:02 PM
I agree, this IP if done right has so much promise.

If anyone thinks I am anti For Honor, far from it I already have a pre-order in.

OK... how... where... when... and for how much did you pre-ordered this game if even devs did not tell us anything? I would say this game will not be on market sooner than Holidays 2016...