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View Full Version : oleg, online collisions are buggy



p1ngu666
02-22-2004, 10:07 PM
could u please look into the collisions online, between planes because atm its all over the place.
for example, i just downed baldiejr online with colision, apart from in my view we missed by a fair amount, and he lost a wing on his own i think
also planes will pass, then explode a few seconds later
its been worse since 1.22 i think.
hope other players can add to this, thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

p1ngu666
02-22-2004, 10:07 PM
could u please look into the collisions online, between planes because atm its all over the place.
for example, i just downed baldiejr online with colision, apart from in my view we missed by a fair amount, and he lost a wing on his own i think
also planes will pass, then explode a few seconds later
its been worse since 1.22 i think.
hope other players can add to this, thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

clint-ruin
02-23-2004, 12:16 AM
There isn't too much Oleg can do to kill latency between two clients and the server, which seems to be exactly what you are describing :<

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

[This message was edited by clint-ruin on Mon February 23 2004 at 03:48 AM.]

WUAF_Badsight
02-23-2004, 03:46 AM
thats a lag collision

if on your view you missed thats lag

on the other hand their is collisions that both see & still one party can fly away from

Aztek_Eagle
02-23-2004, 04:40 AM
on ur screen u did not collide, but in the others player's screen i am sure it was hell on earth, so he collided wiht u, and even that u did not collide in ur view, u die, lag collision, get cable

BaldieJr
02-23-2004, 08:00 AM
Its not lag. There really is something screwy about collisions online. It may just be the B-239 since this wierdness didn't occur when everyone was flying I-153's.

p1ngu666 lost a wing in one collision, while I was untouched, and later I lost a wing while he was untouched.

Its very odd.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

clint-ruin
02-23-2004, 08:37 AM
You're welcome to that as an opinion, but I'd recommend reading an introduction to how internet gaming works before we start qualifying it as a "bug".

Something like, say, http://www.firingsquad.com/guides/netconnect/default.asp

edit: or http://www.stuartcheshire.org/rants/Latency.html and associated links from.

second edit - now I think about it, your mention of it not occuring when "everyone was flying the I-153" certainly sounds indicative of lag as well. Max speeds, and therefore the distance a plane is going to travel between data transmissions, are going to be much lower with the slower planes.


http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

[This message was edited by clint-ruin on Mon February 23 2004 at 07:51 AM.]

p1ngu666
02-23-2004, 08:56 AM
true, but me and baldiejr where alone on the server, and i spotted no lag from him at all
there IS something fishy with the code

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

clint-ruin
02-23-2004, 09:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
true, but me and baldiejr where alone on the server, and i spotted no lag from him at all
there IS something fishy with the code

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh well, nevermind then. I am sure that with the plethora of information - both clients network settings, server ini, connection type of host and client, traceroute statistics, etc, Oleg will have no problem figuring out what the problem is. Along with those track files of the 'bug' occuring.

Now, if only one of you had thought to actually do any of that..

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

BaldieJr
02-23-2004, 10:08 AM
FighterJerks is on HL right now clint-ruin. Feel free to test out our claims.

You'll come to two conclusions:
1. FighterJerks is the smoothest server on HL.
2. The B239 does WIERD things, colision-wise. Its climb/roll rate are suspect, but what doesn't have a suspect FM since the last patch?

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

p1ngu666
02-23-2004, 10:57 AM
its not just the b239, its any plane as far as i can tell, if u play online a fair amount, its bound to have happened to u
guess i should record everything i do, but sods law it wont happen then

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

clint-ruin
02-23-2004, 11:20 AM
Look, it is obvious that I am not getting through here, so I'll leave you guys with three questions and we'll see if you can puzzle it out.

Question one:

For a collision online that involves two aircraft, which of the two options listed below is required for both aircraft to suffer damage?

a) one client agrees with its own received position data
b) two clients agree with their received position data at the same time

Question two:

Take into account your answer for question one.

Given two 3d objects appearing to collide, which of the two given aircraft are more likely to give a valid collision on both clients, taking into account the size of the collision model?

a) I-153
b) B-239

Question three:

Take your answers for question two and question one into account.

Given two objects appearing to intersect with each other, which of the two aircraft speeds listed is more likely to produce a 'collision' that both sides agree upon?

a) collision occuring at 300-400kmh
b) collision occuring at 200-300kmh

Why don't you ask Oleg to pop along to your server? I am sure that he will be as able to appreciate your lag-free smooth riding server from Moscow as I am from Brisbane. After a few minutes there I'm sure he'll have no problem with taking a couple of weeks to pour through the FB network code on a whim. Nevermind those tracks and sustained pings and traceroute logs, boys, it's going to be far easier for him to debug code looking for nothing in particular.

Note that I am not even saying that this 'bug' does not happen, just that the way it has been reported is very easy to dismiss.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

p1ngu666
02-23-2004, 12:13 PM
For a collision online that involves two aircraft, which of the two options listed below is required for both aircraft to suffer damage?

a) one client agrees with its own received position data
b) two clients agree with their received position data at the same time

often u get both ppl going wtf?
so perhaps theres a C)what server sees on its own?

its more likely to happen with a bigger plane, cos theres more to hit. but most fighters are roughly same size

its more likely to happen at high speeds. happens at low speed too i think
im in the uk, play on american servers ok http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

its happening more since 1.22, so looking over whats changed..
its also random, so times u get really close and its fine, othertimes .1-2 away and bang

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

ZG77_Lignite
02-23-2004, 12:21 PM
For BaldieJr. and Pingu: I don't think Clint mentioned that this has been covered from every aspect many dozens of times now, Oleg HAS looked into it. However, Clint is right, in that there is nothing to look into; online latency/packet loss is a fact of life (we're all playing over a system originally designed to send 'emails').

You are welcome to complain about it all you want, but there is nothing that can be done, short of re-writing the entire net-code, and that is not a solution because then some other aspect would prove to be problematic (look at any online game, none are 'perfect' nor will they be until a more modern 'internet infrastructure' is constructed).

All 'net-codes' require trade-offs between fidelity and usefullness. Even on a 'LAN', it is useless to send EVERY single bit of information with 10x redundancy because anything short of text messages would be so far out of sync with what you (the operator) see; on the other hand, if you send only critical information without 10x redundancy then some information may be lost, missed or simply not sent. Thus you don't see the rudder moving on Pingu's airplane, and sometimes his collision with you doesn't register for him.

Rest assured that this has been discussed fully and completely already, and there isn't a solution. It is merely an extension of the age-old 'hardware problem'.

Agamemnon22
02-23-2004, 12:22 PM
"its also random, so times u get really close and its fine, othertimes .1-2 away and bang"

That's more indication that its a lag issue. The code is constant, the latency on the network fluctuates. Therefore, the most likely explanation is lag.

BaldieJr
02-23-2004, 01:02 PM
Its obviuosly not worth getting into.

I smell something fishy in this discussion.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

WUAF_Badsight
02-23-2004, 03:45 PM
its not just the B239

i have LOST COUNT of the collisions that i have been in where the other A/C just flies away & has another DF turning at max G

oleg has posted about this in this forum

offline shows things that are correct so there is no problem in his opinion

the stupid 'was shot down by" message also suxors after a collision

WUAF_Badsight
02-23-2004, 03:47 PM
& ill be at figher jerks more often now Baldie

hope to mix it up with ya soon

BaldieJr
02-24-2004, 04:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
& ill be at figher jerks more often now Baldie

hope to mix it up with ya soon<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh no. Another one to shoot me down!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The more the merrier, I say. I've learned a lot in my humility!

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

XyZspineZyX
02-24-2004, 05:34 PM
Get it through your thick skulls: it IS lag.

It doesn't MATTER that your connection "appears" to be rock solid.

It doesn't matter what your plane type or your enemy's plane type is (other than size offering a bigger object to hit).

It also doesn't matter if the collision code is "right" or "fair" (it isn't either).

But, it IS lag; and if your software says you hit the guy, you pay the price, even if the other guys's software says you didn't. That's why he can fly off like nothing happened.

Incidentally, I feel if they can't code in some kind of retroactive collision checking they should just disable collisions altogether and let the planes decide the issue. But, you're "pissing into the wind" trying to explain this lag issue in any other way.

That's just how it IS. It doesn't make it *right*, but that's how it IS.

tttiger
02-24-2004, 06:17 PM
Geeze I hate it when I agree with Stig http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Read my lips: It's LAG.

I've seen it in every online sim I've flown. It's actually much less common in FB than in massively muliplayers like WarBirds or Aces High that depend on one huge server.

One plane flies apart, the other flies away undamaged.

Just do a Google search and you'll find a jillion articles written about the technical aspects of it (none of which I can understandhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

Now, Baldie, and Ping, you each go to the blackboard and write LAG 100 times http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It ain't a bug and it ain't endemic to FB.

Aloha,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

BaldieJr
02-25-2004, 10:17 AM
Busted.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

Aztek_Eagle
02-26-2004, 11:19 PM
since i fly always at greater green, every one has nice pings, and no more strange collisions, yes we fly bufallos to some times, i fly as Merciless Fat Boy if any one wants to give me a shoot