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View Full Version : OT: The new superiority Benchmark



I3ollox
02-27-2004, 10:21 AM
It'll probably start a flame war with any yanks out there but its interesting none the less (and it is true).

Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the
undisputed king of air
> superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer.
> It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake
District.
> Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation
training flight
> from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock
by a couple
> of F-15Es belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most
formidable and
> experienced combat unit in the European theatre.
> The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid
counters
> ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who
was in full
> afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.
> It is fair to expect that the most surprised by this first encounter
result
> would be the F15 crew, used to dominate the skies since the
mid-seventies and with an
> exchange ratio record of 101 wins to zero losses, and a bunch of
die-hard Eurofighter
> critics without much knowledge of the new fighter air combat
capabilities.
> It is understandable if the RAF rookies would also show their
surprise at the outcome,
> as one does not expect to win an air engagement on the first training
sortie with a
> brand new machine against one of the best combat units in the world,
riding what up
> to now has been the best fighter in history.
> But that is history now!
> Those definitely not surprised by what the events over the Lake
District skies signify
> are the top echelon in the Air Combat Command, the Chief of Staff and
the RAND
> Corp. analysts and boffins. They have been saying for years that the
F-15 is no
> match to the new generation of European fighters and even to the
Su-35 Flanker.
> They know what they say: their operational analyses studies and other
simulated
> evaluations-as indeed have ours, both at the industry and government
> level-have shown that the F-15 is unable to gain air superiority
against Eurofighter
> Typhoon.
> Now they have the first real indication that their worries were not
unjustified and that
> the F/A-22 was the right choice, if they want to maintain the air
superiority also in the
> future.
> Let me quote some of their concerns over the years:
> The current USAF Chief of Staff, Gen. John P. Jumper, when was the
head of Air
> Combat Command in 2001, said, "We 've had a chance to look at this
latest generation of airplanes,">
> and when US pilots flying real or simulated threat airplanes go
against US pilots in current US fighters, "our guys flying their airplanes
beat our guys flying our airplanes....And that airplane we 're flying is
the F-15."
> "I 've got 2,000 hours in the F-15," noted Brig. Gen. Daniel P. Leaf,
the head of operational requirements. "It is a fabulous airplane. It is
the undefeated heavy-weight champion of air superiority." Even so, he
said, "it 's still a 1970s-designed airplane, updated to the max. [It is
] nonstealthy, non super-cruise. And you can only make it do so
much....You have to build a new airplane. So we are."
> Lt. Gen. Bruce A. Carlson, then director of operational requirements
for the Air Force, said that "if we run the F-15 against the Rafale, or
Typhoon, or Su-35, we would probably lose those fights."
> "Typhoon will easily outstrip the capabilities of the Su-35 /-37, as
well as the F-15, and in fact is onsidered second only to the F-22 in
capability. Typhoon is more maneuverable and has better radar detection
capability than the F-15 and is harder to detect on radar."
> (All the citations are from the AIR FORCE Magazine, the USAF monthly
publication)
> The Air Forces of Germany, Italy, Spain and the United Kingdom have
known for a long time through the operational analysis studies conducted
in defining the project, in re-evaluating it after the Cold War defence
re-orientation phase that Eurofighter Typhoon is second only to the
vastly more expensive F/A-22 and that it will assure overwhelming
superiority over any current and future air threat.
> Export customers in Austria, Greece and Norway have expressed their
confidence in Eurofighter Typhoon's capabilities by either procuring,
selecting or seriously considering it for their air power needs in the
21st century. Many other leading edge Air Forces are looking with great
interest at Eurofighter Typhoon as it enters service and demonstrates
its unparalleled capabilities. We do not think that there is much of a
debate about the need for air superiority, but there is a lack of
appreciation for where air superiority comes from. There is a general feeling
that it just happens or it belongs to us. Nothing could be further from
the truth. We have air superiority because we had four Air Forces that
paid attention to the lessons of history, specified and developed the
appropriate weapon systems and move them forward. They know that "if we
lose the war in the air, we lose the war and we lose it quickly" and
that whoever controls the air generally controls the surface.
> Eurofighter Typhoon, designed as a multirole fighter with air
superiority as its key driver, is now ready to move forward and add
significant new air-to-surface capabilities and further extend its air-to-air
ominance.
> O. Fabbro - Eurofighter GmbH - Market Analysis Hallbergmoos, 23
February 2004
>

I3ollox
02-27-2004, 10:21 AM
It'll probably start a flame war with any yanks out there but its interesting none the less (and it is true).

Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the
undisputed king of air
> superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer.
> It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake
District.
> Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation
training flight
> from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock
by a couple
> of F-15Es belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most
formidable and
> experienced combat unit in the European theatre.
> The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid
counters
> ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who
was in full
> afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.
> It is fair to expect that the most surprised by this first encounter
result
> would be the F15 crew, used to dominate the skies since the
mid-seventies and with an
> exchange ratio record of 101 wins to zero losses, and a bunch of
die-hard Eurofighter
> critics without much knowledge of the new fighter air combat
capabilities.
> It is understandable if the RAF rookies would also show their
surprise at the outcome,
> as one does not expect to win an air engagement on the first training
sortie with a
> brand new machine against one of the best combat units in the world,
riding what up
> to now has been the best fighter in history.
> But that is history now!
> Those definitely not surprised by what the events over the Lake
District skies signify
> are the top echelon in the Air Combat Command, the Chief of Staff and
the RAND
> Corp. analysts and boffins. They have been saying for years that the
F-15 is no
> match to the new generation of European fighters and even to the
Su-35 Flanker.
> They know what they say: their operational analyses studies and other
simulated
> evaluations-as indeed have ours, both at the industry and government
> level-have shown that the F-15 is unable to gain air superiority
against Eurofighter
> Typhoon.
> Now they have the first real indication that their worries were not
unjustified and that
> the F/A-22 was the right choice, if they want to maintain the air
superiority also in the
> future.
> Let me quote some of their concerns over the years:
> The current USAF Chief of Staff, Gen. John P. Jumper, when was the
head of Air
> Combat Command in 2001, said, "We 've had a chance to look at this
latest generation of airplanes,">
> and when US pilots flying real or simulated threat airplanes go
against US pilots in current US fighters, "our guys flying their airplanes
beat our guys flying our airplanes....And that airplane we 're flying is
the F-15."
> "I 've got 2,000 hours in the F-15," noted Brig. Gen. Daniel P. Leaf,
the head of operational requirements. "It is a fabulous airplane. It is
the undefeated heavy-weight champion of air superiority." Even so, he
said, "it 's still a 1970s-designed airplane, updated to the max. [It is
] nonstealthy, non super-cruise. And you can only make it do so
much....You have to build a new airplane. So we are."
> Lt. Gen. Bruce A. Carlson, then director of operational requirements
for the Air Force, said that "if we run the F-15 against the Rafale, or
Typhoon, or Su-35, we would probably lose those fights."
> "Typhoon will easily outstrip the capabilities of the Su-35 /-37, as
well as the F-15, and in fact is onsidered second only to the F-22 in
capability. Typhoon is more maneuverable and has better radar detection
capability than the F-15 and is harder to detect on radar."
> (All the citations are from the AIR FORCE Magazine, the USAF monthly
publication)
> The Air Forces of Germany, Italy, Spain and the United Kingdom have
known for a long time through the operational analysis studies conducted
in defining the project, in re-evaluating it after the Cold War defence
re-orientation phase that Eurofighter Typhoon is second only to the
vastly more expensive F/A-22 and that it will assure overwhelming
superiority over any current and future air threat.
> Export customers in Austria, Greece and Norway have expressed their
confidence in Eurofighter Typhoon's capabilities by either procuring,
selecting or seriously considering it for their air power needs in the
21st century. Many other leading edge Air Forces are looking with great
interest at Eurofighter Typhoon as it enters service and demonstrates
its unparalleled capabilities. We do not think that there is much of a
debate about the need for air superiority, but there is a lack of
appreciation for where air superiority comes from. There is a general feeling
that it just happens or it belongs to us. Nothing could be further from
the truth. We have air superiority because we had four Air Forces that
paid attention to the lessons of history, specified and developed the
appropriate weapon systems and move them forward. They know that "if we
lose the war in the air, we lose the war and we lose it quickly" and
that whoever controls the air generally controls the surface.
> Eurofighter Typhoon, designed as a multirole fighter with air
superiority as its key driver, is now ready to move forward and add
significant new air-to-surface capabilities and further extend its air-to-air
ominance.
> O. Fabbro - Eurofighter GmbH - Market Analysis Hallbergmoos, 23
February 2004
>

Panelboy
02-27-2004, 10:33 AM
"Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the
undisputed king of air
> superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer."

Ahhh....

No.

The F15E is a ground attack aircraft, and as such it's crews are not going to be masters of air-to-air/BFM like a pure F15 unit's pilots would be. And who was flying the Typhoon during that mock attack? The "rookie" student (?) or the "instructor". I don't think any point can be made here, other than there is very little information, and some false assumptions are made.

BaldieJr
02-27-2004, 10:36 AM
Haha.

Bounced at 8 o'clock = dead. We're talking about fire/forget jets, not missed-due-to-lag games.

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BpGemini
02-27-2004, 10:37 AM
The F-22 will reign supreme once in production.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.blitzpigs.com/images/P-39_BlitzPig_Sig_01.jpg
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

BfHeFwMe
02-27-2004, 12:45 PM
Lets see what happens when they actually come across some fighters. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

WUAF_Badsight
02-27-2004, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panelboy:
"Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the
undisputed king of air
&gt; superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer."

Ahhh....

No . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Har Har the Eurofighters were 2 seaters too

its great to see the American jet fanboys come out

the Eurofighter is so underrated , bet actual jet pilots dont underrate the latest technology

& i have heard good & bad stuff about the F22 Raptor like it isnt allowed to pull over 6G in maneuvers ?!?!?!

thats plain odd

Gibbage1
02-27-2004, 12:57 PM
Lol. Beating a 30 year old jet is nothing to boast about http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Lets see them stick with an F-16! I dont know about the F-18, but I doubt they would see a F-22 or F-32 before its too late.

All I have to say is "It took them 30 years?"

Gibbage1
02-27-2004, 12:58 PM
I doubt the F-22 was designed with high-g dogfighting in mind http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panelboy:
"Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the
undisputed king of air
&gt; superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer."

Ahhh....

No . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Har Har the Eurofighters were 2 seaters too

its great to see the American jet fanboys come out

the Eurofighter is so underrated , bet actual jet pilots dont underrate the latest technology

& i have heard good & bad stuff about the F22 Raptor like it isnt allowed to pull over 6G in maneuvers ?!?!?!

thats plain odd<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

jung0l
02-27-2004, 01:00 PM
Wow, a brand new advanced canard equipped lightweight fighter outmaneuvered a 2-seat heavy ground attack version of revolutionary aircraft designed TWENTYFIVE years ago. As long as it took to finally make this project a reality it SHOULD dominate an F15E, so update us when they jump some F16's or F22's....

Scen
02-27-2004, 02:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I doubt the F-22 was designed with high-g dogfighting in mind http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panelboy:
"Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the
undisputed king of air
&gt; superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer."

Ahhh....

No . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Har Har the Eurofighters were 2 seaters too

its great to see the American jet fanboys come out

the Eurofighter is so underrated , bet actual jet pilots dont underrate the latest technology

& i have heard good & bad stuff about the F22 Raptor like it isnt allowed to pull over 6G in maneuvers ?!?!?!

thats plain odd<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

F-22 wasn't meant to be a high g aircraft??? Silly to add all that thrust vectoring stuff isnt it?