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TheGozr
02-28-2004, 05:12 PM
They are so a like... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg <--Uncensored version IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

TheGozr
02-28-2004, 05:12 PM
They are so a like... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg &lt;--Uncensored version IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

faustnik
02-28-2004, 05:22 PM
Good matchup! Also the P-51 vs. Dora is awesome. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com)

robban75
02-28-2004, 05:29 PM
Advantages compared to eachother.

Climb low = La-7
Climb at alt = La-7
Turn low = La-7
Turn at alt = La-7
Rollrate at 450km/h = roughly equal
Rollrate 500+km/h = Dora-9 by far
Dive acceleration = La-7
Divespeed = Dora-9
Manouverability low and mid speed = La-7
Manouverability very high speeds = Dora-9
Max speed down low = Equal
Max speed at alt = Dora-9
Acceleration = La-7 by far
Looks = Dora-9 without a doubt! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

diomedes33
02-28-2004, 05:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGozr:
They are so a like... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please explain yourself further Gozr, i don't see it.

Everytime I get shot down by an La7 [in a dora] its because I get lazy and don't climb to a respectable altitude or worse suckered into a turn fight. If the la7 and dora were equal you would be able to turn fight on the deck. If you average out the strengths and weaknesses of each plane they're on the same playing field. However their tactics are drasticaly different to remain competitive.

Try diving from 5km with an la7 and try to hit something at 800 kph. Last time I tried this my controll surfaces left my plane and it was so bumpy I couldn't hit anything if could stear it.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik
P-51 vs Dora is awesome
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agree with this whole heartedly. 51 and Dora use similiar tactics and fullfill the same mission (Escort and shooting down fighters at high altitudes)

http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

TheGozr
02-28-2004, 05:54 PM
I trythe Dora for quite a longtime reset the joystick and voila..

So easy to fly both.. it's not even funny http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg &lt;--Uncensored version IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

VW-IceFire
02-28-2004, 06:12 PM
Flying the Dora is easy? I'd hardly call it an easy thing...the aircraft requires concentration and quite a bit of thinking. Its fairly easy to manage your speed and altitude as the thing has lots of power and plenty of speed when you pour it on. Overall, manuvering and placing guns on target in the Dora is fairly difficult. Its not the hardest plane to fly but I'd hardly call it an easy one.

The La-7 is definately the easiest...its very forgiving, powerful, fast, good at acceleration although it falls apart in a dive http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

They are a good matchup...but in totally different ways. The P-51's are significantly more even overall...

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RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

diomedes33
02-28-2004, 06:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGozr:
So easy to fly both.. it's not even funny http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ummm ... ok. I changed my joystick settings and it gave me a lot more warning before stalls but I wouldn't say they are both as easy to fly.

Not saying I'm even a good pilot, but ...

I can charge into a furball with an La7 and get one or two kills before I pull out. Then I can usually maneuver my way back to base without getting shot down.

With the dora I have to setup a strategy and most importantly an escape plan if things go bad or else I'm dead. I have a lot more stick time in the dora.

If you can just charge into a fight blindly with the dora into a furball full of yak3s, la7s and friendlies. Fight till you lost the upper hand, then make it home with that La7 on your tail you didn't see.

You're a better pilot than I and I salute you.

http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

FI-Aflak
02-28-2004, 06:19 PM
The Dora is in my opinion a forgiving aircraft. Like every aircraft, you have to know what to do with it. In the La-7's case, this means turnfighting, which is any person's natural tendency to do in a dogfight, hence it has been labeled the noob plane. The Dora's element is B&Z and energy fighting. At these it excells. Great climb, ridiculous roll rate, good high alt performance, good armament, amazing speed.

The thing that makes the dora forgiving are its high climb rate and its high top speed. If you find yourself in a bad position, you can usually dive past the enemy's redline, fly level until he drops off behind you. A shallow climb for effect. if you are assailed by a plane with a lesser climb rate (most of them), just slimb until they fall behind. Maybe drop down on them for good measure.

The Dora can take a good deal of damage, and its only real weak point is its poor forward view. If you now how to energy fight and B&Z, the Dora is a great performer and therefore I do not consider it to be a difficult plane to fly.

AFJ_Locust
02-28-2004, 06:23 PM
Doras rule la7 has nothing

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TheGozr
02-28-2004, 06:37 PM
I agree with FI-Aflak i was pretty much surprise and it is a really good plane for sure i like it.
And it is an extreme dangerous plane. I find my self always vs Dora's so i wanted to see how the plane would react infact i'm studying my enemy's planes.
That way i can make some strategics attack or deffenses.

diomedes33 i would love to do a good 1 vs 1 with you , ZEn and stickslic.

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg &lt;--Uncensored version IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

JG7_Rall
02-28-2004, 06:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diomedes33:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGozr:
So easy to fly both.. it's not even funny http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
ummm ... ok. I changed my joystick settings and it gave me a lot more warning before stalls but I wouldn't say they are both as easy to fly.

Not saying I'm even a good pilot, but ...

I can charge into a furball with an La7 and get one or two kills before I pull out. Then I can usually maneuver my way back to base without getting shot down.

With the dora I have to setup a strategy and most importantly an escape plan if things go bad or else I'm dead. I have a lot more stick time in the dora.

If you can just charge into a fight blindly with the dora into a furball full of yak3s, la7s and friendlies. Fight till you lost the upper hand, then make it home with that La7 on your tail you didn't see.

You're a better pilot than I and I salute you.

http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. The La-7 requires little thinking just because you can really do so much in it, but with the Dora, you really gotta know what you're doing and have to be able to accuratly size up your enemy (skill, alt, e state, etc) and use the proper strategy in order to be successful. The Dora is in no way easy to fly, Gozr, but the La-7 is. Not to disrespect those pilots, because I've seen some great Lavochkin jocks out there, but the powerful armament, low e bleed, and great turning capabilities and excelleration make it a great fighter, but easy at the same time. The Dora is great just because it's SO good at E fighting, but that doesn't mean it's easy. It accells at some things like the La-7 does in other areas, but the difference is that the Lavochkins abilities make it easy, but the Doras abilitie make it deadly in the right hands.

S! Regards,

Hutch

PS- Robban, a while back I showed Zen a Dora paintscheme and said "wow, I wish I could skin that plane" He told me that you might half already done it! So after running over to il2skin.com I didn't come across your name as an artist there...so I'm basically wondering if you've got skins that you've made that aren't uploaded, or if you're registered under a different name over there? Thanks a bunch, would love to see/dl your skins. S!

http://home.comcast.net/~nate.r/sig.jpg

TheGozr
02-28-2004, 06:45 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif yes totally agree JG7_Rall
I'm trying to piss off some dora pilots to get a good 1 vs 1 fight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Doing fights 1 vs 1 is a great way to get some good experiences ..
2 vs 1 also is good. then on

But for sure i'll be very worry to have a dora on my shadow... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg &lt;--Uncensored version IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

Mispunt
02-28-2004, 06:47 PM
Personally I find the KI-84 much more like the LA-7 than the Dora. I love the Dora, I just die every time I run into Yak's and LA's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.tmeier.org/LockOn_Upload/store/MisSig.jpg

diomedes33
02-28-2004, 07:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGozr:
diomedes33 i would love to do a good 1 vs 1 with <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thing is if I'm flying the Dora you'll never see me coming. I've only started flying the dora the past couple weeks. Still learning what to do and what not to do.

If my memory serves me, I've already been in a 1v1 with you. You were flying a yak3 and I bf109-g6/as. We went into a rolling scissors to the point where we were on the deck and at ~150 kph. Misjudgement, wind gust, or something mad you stall and crashed. It was a very good fight.

If you wanted to go 1v1 all you had do was ask, not rile me up like that ... sheesh Don't expect to much though, still learning probably sucker me into making some bad mistakes.

I'm usually on War-Clouds Medium. Depending if I go out tonight, I may be on around 9-10 MST time (3-4 hours from now).

http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

Bamatt
02-28-2004, 07:28 PM
La's are for girls. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

TheGozr
02-28-2004, 07:34 PM
diomedes33 lol

http://french.themotorhead.com/images/smilies/bounce.gif http://french.themotorhead.com/images/smilies/icon26.gif

I'll try to be around 10 since we having dinner with friends this evening.. but not sure yet..

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg &lt;--Uncensored version IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

Zen--
02-28-2004, 07:44 PM
I'd say the La7 is easily the most dangerous opponent for the D9, at least in my experience. Properly flown with an eye on E management, the D9 can outclimb most everything in the VVS inventory except the La7, which effectively means that a well flown La7 can deny the D9 operating altitude.

Without being able to gain a significant altitude advantage, the D9 pilot is not faced with many good choices against the La7. He can't stall fight it, can't outclimb it and must be very careful to avoid squandering whatever energy he does have.

There are tactics though, and so the situtation is not hopeless. Being denied altitude advantage means that the engagement will be an exciting one for sure...and thats what we play the game for right? This is where 190 pilots must be able to step out of their tradional BnZ shoes and experience the other world that the Dora belongs to and one that it does quite well in.

I operate from what I call an aggressive defense or an offensive defense, if that makes any sense. In other words when being attacked I operate from an attitude that it is only a matter of time before I shake him loose and begin to get shooting at him. Only a matter of time, conceptually it's that simple.

You cannot consistently outrun an La7 nor outclimb it and because of it's generous E retention, any protracted TnB against it will usually result in a higher E loss for the D9 and an overall worsening of the situation. Limted and calculated TnB is part of E fighting though, don't let limited turning dismay you. So what options do you have? You can always dive, but that is not preferable for me personally, I don't like to give up anything I have. If I do dive, I will almost always try and recover to as near as my starting altitude as I can, again because I don't like to give anything away. I'm cheap like that.

Patience is the key to being engaged by an La7, patience and being resolved to being shot at. Most pilots do not like taking gunfire from an adversary close aboard, but it is in this arena that a D9 pilot can earn his paycheck and then some. It's in this arena, with the La7 close at hand and firing, that the D9 can reverse the tables completely, as long as one is resolved to doing what needs to be done. And it's in this arena that the magic of FB really stands out because this is where the quality of the FM's really shine.

It is risky indeed to have any fighter shooting at you, you are inherently at a disadvantage ofcourse. With bullets flying anything can go wrong, but that shouldn't concern you, it's a fact of life in a sim based on air to air combat. A famous P47 pilot whom I don't recall at the moment once said that when being attacked by surprise, the important thing to do is something, anything. Doing nothing is certain doom but by doing anything other than nothing, some chance of survival can be gained. It may fail and you may get shot down anyway, but it's far better to die trying than to just die without doing anything. I totally agree with that statement, but with the D9 rather than doing just anything or just any old something, it's better to do a specific 'something' or a series of moves calculated to generate a disadvantageous angles situation for the La7. This is aggressive defense.


For my style, best practice I've found if caught by an La7 with a superior E state is to bring him in close. I mean really close, like within firing range. Let him shoot, he wants to anyway and you can't avoid it either. During this time you must do some form of guns defense like rolling rapidly or rudder spoofing, something to confuse his aim. When he is close enough to you, your roll rate becomes a significant factor because his reaction time is reduced due to proximity. The intent is to generate more and more 'lag response' by conducting manuevers that allow you to take advantage of his reduced reaction time in order to get him off your 6.

It's hard to say what these manuevers are, this is where I am not a good teacher. I flow with the engagement and every movement is based on what I see happening at the moment, but I can describe the general trend at least. For guns defense I do what is called the negative knife, which is where you roll wings vertical but instead of pulling on the stick to make a turn, you push down on the stick to go the other way. It has the tendency to make your plane fly straight but with wings vertical instead of horizontal. Add in some rudder and you have a target view that is somewhat difficult to determine which direction you are going to go and typically throws off the attackers aim. Timing is important, this is why you want him to be in guns range, so to avoid him shooting early I tend to do some light weaving and dips to help keep his aim unsteady and encourage him to come in closer for the prime shot. While he is correcting for your rather strange flight path (after you typically see his first burst go wide) you can then pull hard on the stick to make an actual turn...the trick here is be gentle for the first split second but then go hard at it immediately after, this makes the plane snap out of his newly aquired aim on your just abandoned negative knife posture. It's rather like what TnB fighters do to avoid the BnZ shot...slow and steady movement than a massive turn to create a huge change in AoA vs the BnZ fighter which takes advantage of the BnZ fighters limited firing time. This is why you want him close, the closer he is the less time he has to react to the sudden change in direction.

As you pass out of his first shot, the attacker must inevitably roll to change direction and follow you. Turn only long enough to get him to commit, then do a nose low or nose high snap pullup. Add in negative knife manuevers if you can't shake him during this process and you end up with a constantly changing target profile that is difficult to hit. Use your roll rate like your life depended on it because this is the single attribute that you are superior to the La7 in other than dive rate.

During this type of enagement two things are critical...you must keep your eyes on the bandit at suitable times and you need to use combat flaps to help control the stall. Combat flaps generate additional turn rate which helps you in the angles game and have a nice little effect as well, they tend to bleed just a bit more energy. I do these manuevers at full power but depending on the angles I see generated I may drop to 95% power /no wep to help him overshoot. The loss of E works in your favor here because if he ends up above you or to one side you have prevented him from putting rounds on target. Step one is completed, so the price you pay in a drop in E may very well be the price of the survival ticket. The point is to first avoid being shot down which hopefully you have done. While he is higher or off to one side, make an efficient climb to gain altitude. Being fast at this point is not really important to me, only that I get higher. But getting higher is not the solution, it's only a goal if possible. The solution is to generate a combination of angles and E state advantage to where the La7 is no longer saddled up and is no longer in firing range, but keep in mind this can be a lengthy engagement and so again, I say that patience is the key as well as understanding what the long term goal is.

There are often times when I will turn back hard at the La7 and do a heavy pullup to get back to my starting altitude, or as near to it as I can. The reason for the turn is because if done in the right circumstance, you will generate large angular differences that the La7 has to correct for, so it might be a good description to say that I turn hard enough to generate angles then climb again while he is turning back into me.

When he comes back, part of his problem is already compounded, he is no longer saddled on your 6 and so is at an angles disadvantage of some sort. He must turn back into you which means that there is a good chance that he may lose E advantage while you are sedately climbing but if not, he must still latch onto you again. The whole time he is coming back at you, you are regaining E...remember that you started in at a disadvantage but if flown properly you are hopefully breaking even after the first one or two of these episodes. I've found that 2, 3, 4 or even more will do the trick and allow me to end up at an altitude where the La7 cannot catch me without a long sustained climb duel. I'm not one to climb away just to get out of trouble and then not come back, I climb until I feel I have a superior E state, roughly a distance where I can turn around with enough time for a head to head shot and continue from there. With this aggressive defense, I feel as though time is on my side and I have patience to fly with this La7 for as long as it takes to get the decisive edge. Careful engine management is important as well as taking enough fuel...the sacrifices I make during a fight by throttling down to cool the engine and the slight hit on performance by taking more fuel are worth it, they can make the difference and often do in the long run.

I do not say that this aggressive defense will bring you victory every time, there are lots of better pilots out there than me and I am not always successful. Sometimes you do get hit despite your moves and sometimes he is just plain better than you. I will say that I am extremely happy with my success rate under tough circumstances like these, though I do wish I could spell it out move for move instead of talk about the concept, which can leave the impression of contradictions or omitted information. Any condractions are because it's very difficult for me to visualize a text book engagement against the perfect pilot, everything for me comes down to what happens at that moment. Anything omitted is for the same reason, I can't explain this to perfection.

-Zen-

TheGozr
02-28-2004, 07:57 PM
Nice writing Z. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif helpful

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg &lt;--Uncensored version IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

diomedes33
02-28-2004, 08:44 PM
Very informative zen.

Biggest problem I have with the dora right now, is dealing with that la7 or yak3 on my tail. Gives me a few more things to try.

btw from experience, that negative knife really confuses your aim.

http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

VW-IceFire
02-28-2004, 10:40 PM
I tend to do these things...but I never really considered it. A negative knife edge would be something I haven't done much of...I tend to use the USAAF heavy rudder slide which also bleeds speed and makes you a hard target....but this sounds like it would work better.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

HarryVoyager
02-29-2004, 02:24 AM
What you really need is just a wingman to clear your six. La-7's and Yaks are quite vulnerable to even short bursts. If one saddles up, just drag him to your wingman, and do some nice simple evasions, so you don't drag your tail around to much.

Chances are, if you'e got a wingman worth half his salt (even AI wingman can pull it off), you'll have a ball of flying kindling behind you, rather than an La-7.

I fly P-47's just so people know.

Harry Voyager

CARBONFREEZE
02-29-2004, 02:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Flying the Dora is easy? I'd hardly call it an easy thing...the aircraft requires concentration and quite a bit of thinking. Its fairly easy to manage your speed and altitude as the thing has lots of power and plenty of speed when you pour it on. Overall, manuvering and placing guns on target in the Dora is fairly difficult. Its not the hardest plane to fly but I'd hardly call it an easy one.

The La-7 is definately the easiest...its very forgiving, powerful, fast, good at acceleration although it falls apart in a dive http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

They are a good matchup...but in totally different ways. The P-51's are significantly more even overall...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fw-190 D-9 is the n00b plane of Fw-190s.. Very easy for getting kills, especially against any P series below 8000m. La-7 can't keep up with it above ~7500m; but they can still turn inside you up to 9500m.

Russian aircraft require skill to fly.
German aircraft require ten times that skill, and one hundred times the patience!

If guns are responsible for crime, my keyboard must be responsible for my spelling!

WUAF_CO_CRBNFRZ on HyperLobby

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P-38 "Little Butch" Shemya, Alaska

robban75
02-29-2004, 03:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
PS- Robban, a while back I showed Zen a Dora paintscheme and said "wow, I wish I could skin that plane" He told me that you might half already done it! So after running over to il2skin.com I didn't come across your name as an artist there...so I'm basically wondering if you've got skins that you've made that aren't uploaded, or if you're registered under a different name over there? Thanks a bunch, would love to see/dl your skins. S!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, there must have benn some mistake here. I'm no skinner(unfortunatelly), perhaps Zen ment Cpt Farrel or CanonUK. Both have recently made some very nice D-9 skins! Canon can be found at IL2skins, and you can find CptFarrel's skins here! http://www.cptfarrels.com/

Enjoy! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!