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KIMURA
07-12-2004, 04:41 AM
How's about the HVAR 5" warhead? It seems like to be a British RB-3 warhead, and while search my Corsair lib I did only find Corsairs fitted with the smaller HVAR warhead, which had the same warhead diameter as the rocked body had.

http://www.il2sturmovik.com/forgotten_battles/090704/F4U-1D_Corsair1.jpg

Kimura

KIMURA
07-12-2004, 04:41 AM
How's about the HVAR 5" warhead? It seems like to be a British RB-3 warhead, and while search my Corsair lib I did only find Corsairs fitted with the smaller HVAR warhead, which had the same warhead diameter as the rocked body had.

http://www.il2sturmovik.com/forgotten_battles/090704/F4U-1D_Corsair1.jpg

Kimura

Waldo.Pepper
07-12-2004, 04:51 AM
http://www.vectorsite.net/avf4u.html


In the last months of the conflict, the F4U also carried the oversized 29.8 centimeter (11.75 inch) "Tiny Tim" unguided rocket on the wingroot pylons for cracking Japanese strongpoints. Experiments were performed in 1944 with an old F4U-1 with "jet assisted take-off (JATO)" gear, featuring a small solid-fuel rocket attached on the fuselage just behind each wingroot, to allow the Corsair to get off the ground more easily with heavy loads, but it appears that JATO was rarely, if ever, used in service with the Corsair.

KIMURA
07-12-2004, 05:22 AM
I was not asking about the Tiny Tim. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

My question was about the HVAR warhead...........

Here, the HVAR 5" has the same diameter as the rocket fuselage - here to see attached on a TBF.

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/hvar.jpg

Kimura

[This message was edited by KIMURA on Mon July 12 2004 at 04:39 AM.]

[This message was edited by KIMURA on Mon July 12 2004 at 04:39 AM.]

LeadSpitter_
07-12-2004, 05:58 PM
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/NARG/images/corsair9.jpg http://www.ww2guide.com/5inrock.jpg
http://www.ww2guide.com/tinytim.jpg
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/f4u/f4u-5.jpg


both look way to big and out of scale, the tiny tim "larger bottom fuselage mounted" should not come past the exhaust pipe of the corsair which is well behind the cowl flaps. PF seems to have it coming past the cowlflaps.
The hvars dont seem to be lined up correctly either having the inner wing one offcenetered. They are just beta shots but im sure ubi will over look theses things like the wrong bombplacement on the p47s

the jug could only carry a max of 500lb or drop tank on the centerline and the wings can hold 250 500 or 1000 lb.

I gave oleg the data many many times back in 1.0. We also dont have the ability to jettison the rocket tubes in flight nor does the p51b and c carry the tubes which they used in europe

Good payloads site
http://www.ww2guide.com/bombs.shtml

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Mon July 12 2004 at 05:15 PM.]

heywooood
07-12-2004, 06:24 PM
Leadspitter - the scale on the rockets is off.

Maybe we shall see an adjustment before release.. these images may be WIP...



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

Gibbage1
07-12-2004, 06:33 PM
Hay LS. What do you care anyways? Arnt you banning PF from your hard drive? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WereSnowleopard
07-12-2004, 08:18 PM
Can't help but Tiny Tim rocket look like moderm anti-ship missile Harpoon without front canards!

I feel bad for Japan in PF as they don't have much deadly bomb/rockets but just drop smaller bombs. (Is it huge out of balance?)

Cheers
Snowleopard

heywooood
07-12-2004, 08:26 PM
The most competitive portion of the PTO is definately the early years '39 '40 '41 and early 1942 - after that ist gets very one sided. Same holds true for the entire war.. the fate of the world hung in the balance. ...(Then the US got serious and singlehandedly kicked arsenal http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

So the early years for the realistic simmers will be important and the later years for the what iffers.



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

KIMURA
07-14-2004, 04:12 AM
thx LS for sharing the good pictures.

Kimura

BigKahuna_GS
07-14-2004, 11:23 AM
S!

P47N with HVARS
http://www.web-birds.com/7th/318/318th.htm

http://www.web-birds.com/7th/318/P-47.JPG

http://home.att.net/~historyzone/PreCradleP-47N.JPG

__________


P51D
From Zenos Warbirds site :
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-51.html

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-51/P-51ROCKETLAUNCH.gif
WW2 P51D Weapons Loadout of HVARS


____

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Gibbage1
07-14-2004, 02:58 PM
Kahuna. Can you verify that those are from WWII and not Korea? Oleg's position (from previous HVAR threads in the OR) is that all pics of P-51 and P-47 with HVAR is from Korea, not WWII and the two aircraft were not armed with HVAR till after the war.

I personally would love HVAR on the P-51, but we need to prove its historical for Oleg to change it.

RiesenSchnauzer
07-14-2004, 10:35 PM
Gib,

If that is true then why doesn't the P-51 also have a bazooka tube load-out. Personally I think Oleg need proof and then has to feel like doing it, which he may not. I do agree that finding proof of HVAR use on Mustangs in WWII would at least help the issue.

VW-IceFire
07-14-2004, 10:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Kahuna. Can you verify that those are from WWII and not Korea? Oleg's position (from previous HVAR threads in the OR) is that all pics of P-51 and P-47 with HVAR is from Korea, not WWII and the two aircraft were not armed with HVAR till after the war.

I personally would love HVAR on the P-51, but we need to prove its historical for Oleg to change it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The top one is definately from WWII. Its a "pineapple" airforce P-47N. You'll notice the markings are definately WWII timeperiod (no red bands). I've read an article posted sometime ago about the P-47N. Having HVAR rockets (starting with the P-47D-30) was part of what it was able to do. Before the war ended...they were used against Japanese shipping and targets on the mainland.

The P-51D and HVAR's is a different thing. I'm not 100% sure and I haven't seen enough proof to suggest it was capable of HVAR carrying during WWII. HOWEVER, all versions should have Bazooka tubes.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Gibbage1
07-14-2004, 11:15 PM
OK. Lets hope for a P-47N then? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But I would like the tubes on the P-51. Plenty of proof of that. But I dont find the tubes very useful. Not nearly as much as the 5" HVAR on the p-38! Those things pack a good punch!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Kahuna. Can you verify that those are from WWII and not Korea? Oleg's position (from previous HVAR threads in the OR) is that all pics of P-51 and P-47 with HVAR is from Korea, not WWII and the two aircraft were not armed with HVAR till after the war.

I personally would love HVAR on the P-51, but we need to prove its historical for Oleg to change it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The top one is definately from WWII. Its a "pineapple" airforce P-47N. You'll notice the markings are definately WWII timeperiod (no red bands). I've read an article posted sometime ago about the P-47N. Having HVAR rockets (starting with the P-47D-30) was part of what it was able to do. Before the war ended...they were used against Japanese shipping and targets on the mainland.

The P-51D and HVAR's is a different thing. I'm not 100% sure and I haven't seen enough proof to suggest it was capable of HVAR carrying during WWII. HOWEVER, all versions should have Bazooka tubes.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

biggs222
07-15-2004, 01:32 AM
HA, those rockets on the Corsair DO look like the kind that were used by the british, the RB-3.

i have a pic here that shows the seafire mkIIIc carrying 4 of those RB-3 rockets (two on each wing).

id post the pic but i dont have a scanner

BigKahuna_GS
07-15-2004, 07:05 AM
S!
__________________________________________________ _________________________
Gibbage1 posted 14-07-04 13:58
Kahuna. Can you verify that those are from WWII and not Korea? Oleg's position (from previous HVAR threads in the OR) is that all pics of P-51 and P-47 with HVAR is from Korea, not WWII and the two aircraft were not armed with HVAR till after the war.
I personally would love HVAR on the P-51, but we need to prove its historical for Oleg to change it.
__________________________________________________ __________________________

Rgr that Gib ! Click on the link and scroll down to the bottom for the P47N with HVARS pic. The P47s also used napalm. Someone posted a link of P51Ds attacking japanese factories in Taiwan or mainland Japan-not sure. But it was clear the P51 were using HVARS.

P47N with HVARS
http://www.web-birds.com/7th/318/318th.htm
http://www.web-birds.com/7th/318/318_history.htm

Veterans of the War with Japan, the 318th Fighter Group was in the 7th Fighter Command, known as the Pineapple Air Force. The 7th Fighter Command was the first American Fighters to engage the enemy and the last to engage the enemy during WW 11. The 7th Fighter Command was composed, during the attack on Pearl Harbor, of the 15th Fighter Group and the 18th Fighter Group. The 19th, 44th, 72nd, and 73rd Fighter Squadrons that later served in the 318th were in those two groups.

Army fighter planes flew off of aircraft carriers no less than seven times in the Pacific. P36s to Hawaii in February 1941, the 73rd F.S. to Midway in P40s in June 1942, the 45th F. S. to Canton and 72nd F. S. to Makin in P39s in December 1943, the 19th, 73rd and 333rd F.S. to Saipan in P47s in June 1944. The Makin and Saipan operations were catapult shots.

Instead of for high altitude aerial combat, the Thunderbolts were desperately needed for ground support and neutralization. So, they fought on the deck with machine guns, rockets and 500-pound bombs. Worn by sleepless nights and continuous flying, pilots bored in at tree-top height to blast pillboxes, caves and troop concentrations at the front. They worked so close to the fluctuating battle line that empty brass cartridges from their guns showered down on the heads of American troops.

On the afternoon of July 23rd, men crowded on top of the old block house or perched on rod earth bunkers to watch the group's P-47's bomb Tinian with wing and belly tanks which, for the first time in the war, were filled with the new mixture called Napalm.

Sparked by two pilots who jumped 30 Zekes and shot down eight in four minutes near Amani Ie Shima, twenty pilots of the group scored confirmed victories May 25. Their total bag of 34 enemy planes in four hours broke up a large-scale Kamikaze attack and set a new kill record for a single fighter group in a single action.

Another two-man show over Southern Kyushu May 28 squared off against 28 Zekes, shot down six, probably shot down two more, damaged a ninth and scared hell out of the rest to highlight a day which saw the Group score 17 confirmed kills and four probables.

It went on like that in the days that followed. With its insolent handful of P-47's the 318th was outfighting the enemy from Okinawa to Central Kyushu, goading him into the all-out defensive effort which came on June 10. When 35 Thunderbolts flew north that morning to protect Navy photographic Liberators, they found a reception party of 134 Zekes, Jacks, Tonys, Tojos and Georges. Few Thunderbolts were free to carry the battle to the Japs. Most held their defensive screen to discourage any major attack on the photoplanes.

___

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

BigKahuna_GS
07-15-2004, 09:36 AM
S!

Heres another P47N pic at Ie Shima :
http://home.earthlink.net/~atdouble/~318thFighterGroup.IeShima.html

http://home.earthlink.net/~atdouble/GGalalt.JPG
Glory Gal (73rd) Loaded for bear


http://home.earthlink.net/~atdouble/Wolfe.JPG
Judge Wolfe (9 kills)

Judge Wolfe (333rd) became the first Army Air Force pilot
to shoot down an enemy fighter with a rocket on June 6th, 1945.
He spotted two "Zekes" with a 4,000 feet advantage, and didn't want to jettison two 5 inch rockets under his wings. He got into a head on attack position and tried them as air to air weapons. Said Wolfe later, "I don't know who was more surprised, him or me!" The Zeke just disintegrated. Wolfe's T-Bolt carried him through the debris cloud for kill number 6. A minute later, he had kill number 7. Four other pilots scored that day including Harry E. McAfee, the first army pilot to land on Saipan and Tinian. He got a bomber.

On June 8th, the 318th shot down 13 Japanese planes.
Their combat kill/loss ratio at Ie Shima was now 79 to 1.

http://daimyo.org/text/japanese_fighters.txt
code names for japanese fighters/bombers

SOME INTERESTING FACTS AND FIGURES

For those of you who are statistically inclined, the following figures should be of interest and may Prove useful in arguments that are sure to arise in later years with individuals of other units from other theaters of war. In case you don't already know it, the 318th has dropped a hell of a lot of bombs and fired several million rounds of ammunition in addition to flying an unbelievable number of hours and destroying a sizeable number of enemy planes. Here are the facts.


MARIANAS
RYUKYUS
TOTAL

Total Combat Sorties
5,102
2,759
7,861

CAP Sorties Flown
14,944
2,139
17,083

Total Hours Flown
47,600
20,494
68,094

Total Bomb Tonnage
(Including Fire Bombs)
1,1112
784
1,926

Total Rounds .50 Caliber
Expanded on Combat Missions
2,475,904
715,003
3,190,907

Rockets Expended
1,591
830
2,421


http://home.earthlink.net/~atdouble/Dauro_Score.jpg

They flew 7,861 combat missions and 17,083 patrol sorties.
Dropped 1,926 tons of bombs and fired 3,190,907 rounds of .50 caliber ammunition.
Destroyed 44 vessels under 100 feet long and damaged 135 more, including
1 light cruiser (CL) and 2 destroyers (DD).
Total flying time was 68,094 hours.
They got the record for most kills in a single action.
And they produced some Aces.

_________

Heres what happened to the P47N's in the Pacific after WW2 and probably why they were not used in Korea :

"The planes did not come home. Many WW2 planes were discarded like empty beer cans. The 318th's P-47Ns were lined up and bulldozed off a cliff, like the wrecks back on Wheeler Field in '41. But they would be missed! 5 short years later on the nearby Korean peninsula, US ground troops desperately needed close air support, and the more fragile, less heavily armed P-51 Mustangs had to carry the load. P-51 losses would be high.
But that's another story."

___



What is interesting is that Oleg has added features of other aircraft to the current FB/AEP models we have now for various reasons. For example, Oleg gave the P47D-27 the roll rate of a P47D-30 -because of a lack of flight model info and this looked to be the closest match.

If these new models cannot be added that carried HVARs because of workload, time, PF etc. I say field mod them like the aircraft that did. There is virtually no difference between the P47D-27 & D30 varients or the P51D-20NA and P51D-25 (externally).

The P47D-30 carried HVARs so give the P47D-27 that capability :

P-47D at war (ETO)

The P-47D-30 was improved with a "bubble" canopy and cut-down rear fuselage. This version became also able to launch HVAR rockets.
830 P-47D were delivered to the RAF. In RAF service, the "razorback" P-47D was known as the Thunderbolt I and the "bubble canopy" P-47D was known as Thunderbolt II. 446 P-47Ds were delivered to the Free French forces, and about 200 to USSR.

The "P-47D-40" was the final P-47D subvariant, and was a more significant update. Cutting down the rear fuselage to accommodate the bubble canopy had led to yaw instability in the aircraft's flight, so the P-47D-40 had a neat dorsal fin extension in the form of a narrow triangle running from the vertical tailplane to the radio aerial. The dorsal fin extension was retrofitted in the field to earlier P-47D bubble-top variants.

The P-47D-40 also featured provisions for ten "zero length" stub launchers for 12.7 centimeter (5 inch) "High Velocity Air Rockets (HVARs)", as well as the new "K-14" computing gunsight. This was a license-built copy of the British Ferranti GGS Mark IID computing gyro sight, which allowed a pilot to dial in target wingspan and range, and would then tell the pilot when he had a good shot at the target. The K-14 was a great assistance in deflection shooting.

[edit]

____

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/stokes/stokes-turkeyshoot.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

Gibbage1
07-15-2004, 02:14 PM
So I hope we can get HVAR's on PF, but I doubt they will be in IL2. It looks like HVAR's were on P-51 late in the Pacific and not in time for VE day.

VW-IceFire
07-15-2004, 02:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
So I hope we can get HVAR's on PF, but I doubt they will be in IL2. It looks like HVAR's were on P-51 late in the Pacific and not in time for VE day.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats probably the most realistic scenario. And yes, the HVAR's do pack quite a punch. Last night on a dogfight server with ground targets a few of us were unleashing the HVAR's against concentrated targets...lots of damage caused.

Still doesn't mean we can't ask for Bazooka tubes on the P-51's in FB. Those were used plenty around D-Day (and before) and its always nice to back your bombs up with rockets (I've got P-51A pictures with bombs on racks and rocket tubes on the wings so I presume that nothing really changed there).

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Gibbage1
07-15-2004, 03:13 PM
I have a lot of fun mud-moving in P-38's. I will pick the 2 1000lb with 5 seconds and HVAR loadout. I typically drop the bombs in the middle of a group of targets, and then pick of tanks with the HVAR's. Almost any tank goes down with a good hit on the sides or back with HVAR but the big Tigers. Those need 2 volly's! I have gotten very good with the HVAR's online. I can nail 4 out of 5 tanks. I fly lots of aircraft (110, Ju-87, He-111, IL2) and I cant find ANYTHING that can reak so much havoc on tanks as a loaded P-38. On War Clouds I often fly with a group of P-38's and we constantly clear each others tails of 109's and still mud move! I dont think a IL2 can even contend with a 109G6. A well flown P-38 can! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I also have been jumped on my way to the target, ditched the bombs and HVAR's and shot down my attacker who was in a 109, and later shot down a 190 who attacked me as a killed the 109! Try THAT in a Ju-87 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

One of the best mud moovers in IL2 and I am DAMN proud of it. Just need to fix them damn shotguns in the nose.

SkyChimp
07-16-2004, 09:50 PM
Kimura:

IMO those rockets on that Corsair do not represent the British aerial rocket, but rather the US 5-inch FFAR (Forward Firing Aerial Rocket).

The first air-launched 5-inch rocket of the U.S. Navy was a derivative of an earlier 3.5-inch rocket, which was developed by the Navy from June 1943 as an aircraft-launched ASW (Anti-Submarine Warfare) rocket. Rocket-armed ASW aircraft would greatly reduce the warning time for surfaced subs before an attack. A Caltech 3.5-inch solid-fueled rocket motor was fitted with a 3.5-in solid steel warhead. The rocket, simply known as 3.5-Inch FFAR (Forward-Firing Aircraft Rocket), achieved a velocity of about 1300 km/h (800 mph) and could penetrate a submarine's pressure hull even after travelling through 40 m (130 ft) of water. The first submarine kill with the 3.5-inch FFAR occurred in January 1944.

The 3.5-inch FFAR was considered accurate enough for use against surface ships and land targets, but needed an explosive warhead for these missions. A 5-inch anti-aircraft shell was modified as a warhead for the 3.5-inch rocket motor. The resulting rocket was the 5-Inch FFAR, which entered service in December 1943. Because of the increased weight, the speed of the 5-inch FFAR was only 780 km/h (485 mph).

Here is a clearer picture:

http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/rockets.jpg

====

And the notion that HVARs were carried and used only after WWII is absurd.

Interestingly, the HVAR was actually used in the ETO before the M-8/M-10 was. The M-8 bazooka tube rockets were first used in August 1944. In July 1944 the American HVAR was first used in the ETO.

On July 17, 1944 several P-47Ds of the 513th Squadron of the 406th FG attacked the marshalling yards at Nevers, France with HVARs. A flak tower was destroyed first, then the planes fired 48 rockets, 38 of them hitting 25 locomotives. 3 repair shops and a roadhouse were damaged. That's pretty impressive for the 1st use.

On July 26 the first American rocket attacks against tanks was made with 4 tanks destroyed by HVAR rockets.

On the 27th, the German aerodrome at Coulommiers was attacked with HVARs resulting in moderate damage (1 large hangar, 4 small hangars, a fuel dump and 1 Me-110 were hit).

On August 13 the 513th attacked, with HVARs, 4 heavy tanks (Mark V Panthers) and 1 light tank moving along a road near Marignym, France and destroyed all five.

Despite the effectiveness of the HVAR (and the M-8/M-10), rockets were never widely used in the ETO by USAAF FGs. During the entire war in the ETO, the 9th AF expended just 13,959 rockets. Compare that to the PTO, where Navy and Marine aircraft alone, from August 1943 to August 1945, expended 210,056 rockets.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/signature.jpg

Sabre51
07-17-2004, 04:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Kahuna. Can you verify that those are from WWII and not Korea? Oleg's position (from previous HVAR threads in the OR) is that all pics of P-51 and P-47 with HVAR is from Korea, not WWII and the two aircraft were not armed with HVAR till after the war.

I personally would love HVAR on the P-51, but we need to prove its historical for Oleg to change it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gibbage, on page 146 of "Mustang at War" by Roger A Freeman there is a photo of a 78th FS P-51 being armed with 5in HVAR's in May 1945 prior to a mission against Japanese strongholds in the Boni Island group, so they were used.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~ash4/index/P51HVAR.jpg

Edit to add: The 78th was deployed to England during the Korean War so it can't be a wrongly labled photo.

[This message was edited by Sabre51 on Sat July 17 2004 at 03:55 AM.]

[This message was edited by Sabre51 on Sat July 17 2004 at 03:55 AM.]