PDA

View Full Version : Is it right?



darkhorizon11
01-27-2004, 11:55 PM
Hi I've played IL2 for awhile now and I've had many posts in here. The other day something was brought to my attention that I never really thought about. My girlfriend who is also a pilot (non flight sim) was watching me play IL2 and was quite disgusted as she watched me blow up an enemy aircraft obviously killing the pilot. I immediately pointed out that there are far more violent games that are FAR more graphic. Both IL2 games are bloodless.
She on the other hand is a very smart girl and said it wasn't the fire or death but the theme of the game. She quickly said that IL2FB simulates what happened graphicly to hundreds of thousand of men and ruthlessly. She made me think... What are we really doing? War is generally thought of as the closest thing on Earth to hell. And we simulate it with glee. How would you explain this game to someone that died in one of these conflicts in real life (hypothetically of course) what were doing? I mean in 30 years will there be a 9/11 sim? Or a Gulf War sim? My grandfather fought in the PTO and saw much combat. Like most, he rarely talks about it but I know for a fact he was in Guadancanal Bougainville and Iwo Jima. In a way I would be ashamed if he knew I played a game like this... The other thing my gf pointed out was the way people so freely use the swastika. People claim its for historically accuracy, Oleg did the right thing by omitting it. Certain historical aspects such as bigotry and rasicm are best left unsimulated. Especially, when in most cases the symbol itself was not a reflection of the pilots themselves.

Don't get the wrong idea. I don't hate IL2, FB or any of these games. I will still play it and enjoy it like everyone else. I'm not trying to make everyone else stop playing it, as Oleg and his crew worked very hard to make it. Furthurmore I'm not trying be anyone's mom or sound high or mighty! These are just a few thoughts that went through my head... How do you guys feel? Be honest... am I the only one that feels this way sometimes? Any war vets who want to chime in?

darkhorizon11
01-27-2004, 11:55 PM
Hi I've played IL2 for awhile now and I've had many posts in here. The other day something was brought to my attention that I never really thought about. My girlfriend who is also a pilot (non flight sim) was watching me play IL2 and was quite disgusted as she watched me blow up an enemy aircraft obviously killing the pilot. I immediately pointed out that there are far more violent games that are FAR more graphic. Both IL2 games are bloodless.
She on the other hand is a very smart girl and said it wasn't the fire or death but the theme of the game. She quickly said that IL2FB simulates what happened graphicly to hundreds of thousand of men and ruthlessly. She made me think... What are we really doing? War is generally thought of as the closest thing on Earth to hell. And we simulate it with glee. How would you explain this game to someone that died in one of these conflicts in real life (hypothetically of course) what were doing? I mean in 30 years will there be a 9/11 sim? Or a Gulf War sim? My grandfather fought in the PTO and saw much combat. Like most, he rarely talks about it but I know for a fact he was in Guadancanal Bougainville and Iwo Jima. In a way I would be ashamed if he knew I played a game like this... The other thing my gf pointed out was the way people so freely use the swastika. People claim its for historically accuracy, Oleg did the right thing by omitting it. Certain historical aspects such as bigotry and rasicm are best left unsimulated. Especially, when in most cases the symbol itself was not a reflection of the pilots themselves.

Don't get the wrong idea. I don't hate IL2, FB or any of these games. I will still play it and enjoy it like everyone else. I'm not trying to make everyone else stop playing it, as Oleg and his crew worked very hard to make it. Furthurmore I'm not trying be anyone's mom or sound high or mighty! These are just a few thoughts that went through my head... How do you guys feel? Be honest... am I the only one that feels this way sometimes? Any war vets who want to chime in?

Slammin_
01-28-2004, 12:04 AM
You need a new girlfriend! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I dunno, one more tree hugging thread and I'm going to go knit a quilt or something! j/k

Actually, in a way I'd always thought I was honoring the fighting men and women of wars past and present with my interests in combat simulations. But, no matter how good I'd ever think I was at this stuff, I know it's nothing like the real deal (thank goodness) and the worst injury I'll walk away with is a sore arm or a blister on my trigger finger.

Dude, flip it around on her and tell her this is your way of trying to see what it might have been like, but don't tell her it's fun!

Dr. Slam Ruth

ElfunkoI
01-28-2004, 12:09 AM
Sure, to her it seems like it recreates real life. But obviously she hasn't ever dealt with the ai (friendly or foe)! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AirBot
01-28-2004, 12:30 AM
In a way, I think FB is one of the best ways of seeing what it was really like. I think it gives us a far greater understanding of, and consequently more respect towards the brave men and women that fought that bloody war and the sacrifices they made.
Making the game fun is just a way of keeping you playing. Then, after you've been playing for a few weeks or months, you suddenly come to the realization that the plane you just blew up would contain a living person in real life. It probably won't make you stop playing, but hopefully it will dowse any enthusiasm you might have for real war.

Ask your girlfriend what she thinks about war films like "Saving Private Ryan" or "Band of Brothers". I doubt she will say she finds them offensive.
Now what's the difference between FB and a war film? A movie, no matter what genre, is still made for entertainment in the end.

As for the swastika, when I play FB I don't see the swastika on an aircraft as a symbol of an ideology. As far as I know, most German pilots weren't Nazis and didn't have anything to do with what the Nazis did. Just as I don't see the red star on Soviet aircraft as the symbol of a regime which killed millions of it's own people, but rather as a show of patriotism towards one's country. (As opposed to that country's government - you don't have to like the government to be a patriot.)
Furthermore, the Finnish Von Rosen's Cross (which was omitted from the game as well), for example, does not represent a support of the Nazis. In fact, it was in use even before the Nazi's rise to power, and I, for one, like having it on my aircraft.

Incidentally, it seems somewhat strange to me that most people are disgusted even by the sight of a swastika, no matter if it is in the context of the symbol of the Nazi party or not, but have no problems with the red star. Certainly, the Nazis did many horrible things, as did the Russians, but that does not mean the swastika or the red star represent genocide no matter the context in which they are displayed.

carguy_
01-28-2004, 12:37 AM
You should find all the answers in the "Should we stop?" thread.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

SodBuster43
01-28-2004, 01:46 AM
A few things to consider here...

First of all you need to stand back take a good look at what we are killing here, PIXELS !!!! This is not real life although many of these games like IL-2 are depicting historical events. As I see it, it is a good healthy way of letting off some steam once in a while. This especially true for the male gender, who for reasons beyond their control, are biologically programmed with the willingness to take part in combat.

On the other hand, playing combat simulation games like IL-2 can give you a greater appreciation of what it might have been like to actually be there on the battlefield, at sea or in the air. Of course if this were real life, I for one would be dead a thousand times over by now. This in itself is rather a sobering thought as millions of people lost their lives in WWII. You can see how easily it would have been to lose your life in the face of enemy fire.

I am not about to break down in tears or feel ashamed because I am playing this game. I will save the tears for movies like "Saving Private Ryan", "Enemy At The Gates", "We Were Soldiers" or "Memphis Belle" or maybe a trip to Arlington National Cemetary here in the States.

I will admit that on a few occasions I did feel sadness while playing PC combat games. The games I was playing portrayed events in several of the afformentioned movies. The D-Day landings at normandy (Medal Of Honor/Saving Private Ryan), the Battle Of Stalingrad (Call Of Duty/Enemy At The Gates), Vietnam warfare (Vietcong/We Were Soldiers) and serving on a B-17 bomber crew over France (B-17 The Mighty Eighth/Memphis Belle).

As far as worrying over what real veterans of WWII, Korea, Vietnam, The Persian Gulf, etc. might be thinking about us playing these games, why don't you ask some of them in this community. I'm sure they exist here happily playing this game with the rest of us. I know of, have talked with or have been personal friends with a few of these people myself. Some of them even play combat games like IL-2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[This message was edited by SodBuster43 on Wed January 28 2004 at 02:30 PM.]

T_O_A_D
01-28-2004, 02:14 AM
Ask a WW2 Airman. We have had interviews with them (not me but other forum members) They have even been supplied the game and a machine to play on. No where was it mentioned we should not do this. I think these old timers get a bit misty just thinking of back then and that we a much younger generation has the knowledge, let alone take the time to play a rememberence of their time gone by. It lets them know in their final days if not hours, that what they did for the world then, and for us now has not been forgotten or invain, but again eternaly marked in our future generations, by a game.

There was a time though back when I was Medal of Honor every living minute. I walked away from it for two full days. I had just viewed "We were Soldiers" That movie was bang on as the UK gents say. It really hit me hard. I have then since purchased it, and have had trouble watching it even still with out suling up with pridefull tears of camraderie. That our service men and famlies endure for all of us world wide.

Oh as for your GF its just a reverse pycology thing to get you to swat her on the bum and fondle her neather areas. And make her feel like she is the object of your obsession.
My advice go rip her clothes off and and have a bang of a time and when she falls asleep. Slip out of bed and come play with us mate! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
131st_Toad's Squad link (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
2.11 drivers (http://home.mchsi.com/~131st-vfw/NaturalPoint_trackIR_2_11.exe)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

SpremeCommander
01-28-2004, 02:19 AM
Jesus Christ, dude. Send her packing.

AJRobson
01-28-2004, 02:19 AM
My girlfriend (as well as her 14 yr old daughter) enjoy playing both IL2 AND Ghost Recon.

They know its just a game.

Even chess simulates "battle". Does your girlfriend also disprove of that?

http://home.comcast.net/~ajrobson/screens/sig1.jpg

pettera
01-28-2004, 02:25 AM
"As far as I know, most German pilots weren't Nazis and didn't have anything to do with what the Nazis did." What were they then? Gentlemen slaughtering millions of Soviet civilian citizens by mishappenings? Get a grip! You can't be that cruel without big doses of sick ideology. The German warfare on the Eastern front is probably the most brutal happening mankind have ever seen. It was a slaughter of millions where civilians were the most common victims. It would be pretty stupid to assume that German pilots didn't know what was happening on the ground. The airwar was nothing but support for the ground activities.

My father was in Norway during WWII carrying a gun in the Norwegian resistance. He also dislikes IL2 quite strongly even though he has a fascination with WWII planes. So I think darkhorizon (and his girlfriend) has a point. War is disgusting and the Eastern front even more so. Mimicking it is not very nice. The trouble is that it is very fascinating and fun...

Petter ***

Tully__
01-28-2004, 04:12 AM
There are (at least)two ways to view a game like this, MOHAA and others in these genres.

1. They glorify war and should be banned

OR

2. They help to emphasise the horrors of war to those who have never personally experienced it, thus helping swing public opinion towards avoiding war where is not essential (as in national defence).

While in individual cases you can validly argue either point depending on the individual, across the population as a whole I think the two balance out.

Putting those issues aside, for those that are interested in historical aircraft IL2:FB is IMHO excellent entertainment.

=================================================

http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/Corsair.jpg (http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm)

IL2 Forums Moderator
Forum Terms of Use (http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm)


Salut
Tully

AirBot
01-28-2004, 04:19 AM
I've never heard of a German airman taking part in, or even witnessing, such slaughter. I would think a pilot would be quite detached from such happenings, as he is rarely present on the front on the ground. Also, I know the treatment of German civilians by Russians often wasn't much better.
I'm not trying to say they were all free from guilt mind you, but AFAIK German airmen (if not the ground troops) mostly did not participate in such activities.
Of course, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. It might cast the people who we admire around here in a somewhat different light (Hartmann, for example?).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pettera:
"As far as I know, most German pilots weren't Nazis and didn't have anything to do with what the Nazis did." What were they then? Gentlemen slaughtering millions of Soviet civilian citizens by mishappenings? Get a grip! You can't be that cruel without big doses of sick ideology. The German warfare on the Eastern front is probably the most brutal happening mankind have ever seen. It was a slaughter of millions where civilians were the most common victims. It would be pretty stupid to assume that German pilots didn't know what was happening on the ground. The airwar was nothing but support for the ground activities.

My father was in Norway during WWII carrying a gun in the Norwegian resistance. He also dislikes IL2 quite strongly even though he has a fascination with WWII planes. So I think darkhorizon (and his girlfriend) has a point. War is disgusting and the Eastern front even more so. Mimicking it is not very nice. The trouble is that it is very fascinating and fun...

Petter ***<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fillmore
01-28-2004, 05:10 AM
I agree that it is no different in principal from chess (or soccer for that matter). The focul point of the game is the simulation of machines, not people or events (though the simulation of warplanes obviously entails some degree of simulating other aspects of war).

Chess is certainly more abstract, but I see no point in trying to differentiate between levels of abstractions, to say that very abstract representations of warfare are ok but less abstract representations are bad (like IL2FB).

Many team sports are abstractions of warfare (soccer evolved from a game played cross-country between villages, baseball evolved from a game called rounders which represented castle siege) and I see them as no different in principal from computer games. Perhaps the games depict warefare more graphically, but sports depict them more physically (don't think many people get seriously injured playing video games), and involve physical violence, which video games do not have (they may depict physical violence graphically, but in football you actually participate in physical violence). So in some senses I would say that football, rugby et. al. are worse than video games, because while video games abstractly *represent* violence (and its effects) graphically, these sports actually *involve* violence (and the players are subjected to its effects, such as death, paralysis etc. Even spectators can suffer the effects of the violence that takes place in these games).

arcadeace
01-28-2004, 05:13 AM
Your girlfriend certainly has a right to her opinion, hopefully she understands you have a right to your entertainment. Its been expressed well here and in other threads, it can be viewed both ways. As long as people who are offended by a sim with this level of 'violence' don't seek to have PC politicians ban it, being objective to acknowledg their personal feelings, there won't be a problem. I'm in agreement that it simply balances out. Unfortunately, I also suspect there's becoming less tolerance.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_222_1073167658.jpg

pettera
01-28-2004, 05:18 AM
The Luftwaffe had three main purposes on the Eastern front: Transport, ground attack and attack Soviet bombers. Dogfights is not a purpose in itself and is essentially the result of attacking escorts or protecting bombers. You are probably right that Luftwaffe pilots hardly ever witnessed the slaughtering on the ground but they sure added to the terrors by dropping bombs. They must have been aware of the tremendous slaughter going on.

Most of what we read and hear about Luftwaffe is about the few aces. The vanity within Luftwaffe was probably quite significant boosting efforts to obtain kills. According to Nikolay Gerasimovitch Golodnikov, this could have the effect of abondoning bombers to obtain a kill. See http://airforce.users.ru/lend-lease/english/articles/golodnikov/index.htm
So you are probably right about them feeling somewhat detached from the Wehrmacht and SS doing the "dirty work."

Also, you are correct about German civilians being treated terrible by the Soviet Army. But that was only at the end of the war when the Red Army entered Germany. Then, it became an army of rapists and looters. Reading "Berlin, The Downfall, 1945" by Anthony Beevor sure doesn't paint a very nice picture of the revenging Red Army. However, one can understand the rage but that can never justify the cruelty towards the civilians.

Petter ***

tsisqua
01-28-2004, 09:32 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: From what I can see, FB honors the pilots from every nation, and the dead on all sides. That is why some of us fly as Yanks, some as Germans, some as Finns . . . etc. When we fly our game, we pay tribute to those that fought for their homelands, countries, and to protect their families. We that are from the USA have learned about parts of the war that our history teachers didn't bother to tell us because they didn't think that Russian history was all that important, or whatever. I had never seen an I-16, or an I-153 before this game. And before I saw the original game on the shelf at the store, I had no idea what an IL2 Sturmovik was. With the proper attitude, this game is guilt-free, and very fun.

Oh, and TOAD may have been a bit direct, but I think that his point is that our lady friends need attention. I know that my wife will criticize my game if I never spend any time with her, its just human nature. Don't let this, or any other game come before your personal relationships. Nothing is that important.

Oh, yeah, tell your GF that we love her.

Tsisqua

http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChristie.jpg
Tsalagi Asgaya Galvladi

Indianer.
01-28-2004, 09:53 AM
Get a new girlfriend and dont think too much. A job would probably take ur mind off it.

"durch wehrwillen zur wehrkraft"

perioikos
01-28-2004, 10:24 AM
All things considered, simulated and pixelated WWII air combat is a much less disturbing voyeristic trip than much of what passes for entertainment on tv.

Oh, to ponder the dark recesses of the human psyche ...

AirBot
01-28-2004, 11:43 AM
You're undoubtedly right about the fact that they added to the slaughter by dropping bombs. But every side did the same - see the firebombing of Dresden for example. From what I know, it seems Luftwaffe airmen weren't any better or worse than any other nation's pilots, and it seems you agree with me.
I hope it doesn't seem like I'm trying to defend what the Germans did, because that's not what I'm trying to do.

Also, I'd just like to emphasize that I wasn't trying to besmirch the name of Russian soldiers by what I said.
I was born in Russia, and my grandfather fought in the Soviet army during the Great Patriotic War. I am indeed very proud of him and all the other Soviet soldiers who fought back the German Blitzkrieg and freed their motherland, despite largely incompetent leadership.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pettera:
The Luftwaffe had three main purposes on the Eastern front: Transport, ground attack and attack Soviet bombers. Dogfights is not a purpose in itself and is essentially the result of attacking escorts or protecting bombers. You are probably right that Luftwaffe pilots hardly ever witnessed the slaughtering on the ground but they sure added to the terrors by dropping bombs. They must have been aware of the tremendous slaughter going on.

Most of what we read and hear about Luftwaffe is about the few aces. The vanity within Luftwaffe was probably quite significant boosting efforts to obtain kills. According to Nikolay Gerasimovitch Golodnikov, this could have the effect of abondoning bombers to obtain a kill. See http://airforce.users.ru/lend-lease/english/articles/golodnikov/index.htm
So you are probably right about them feeling somewhat detached from the Wehrmacht and SS doing the "dirty work."

Also, you are correct about German civilians being treated terrible by the Soviet Army. But that was only at the end of the war when the Red Army entered Germany. Then, it became an army of rapists and looters. Reading "Berlin, The Downfall, 1945" by Anthony Beevor sure doesn't paint a very nice picture of the revenging Red Army. However, one can understand the rage but that can never justify the cruelty towards the civilians.

Petter ***<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JG7_Rall
01-28-2004, 12:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"As far as I know, most German pilots weren't Nazis and didn't have anything to do with what the Nazis did." What were they then? Gentlemen slaughtering millions of Soviet civilian citizens by mishappenings? Get a grip! You can't be that cruel without big doses of sick ideology. The German warfare on the Eastern front is probably the most brutal happening mankind have ever seen. It was a slaughter of millions where civilians were the most common victims. It would be pretty stupid to assume that German pilots didn't know what was happening on the ground. The airwar was nothing but support for the ground activities.

My father was in Norway during WWII carrying a gun in the Norwegian resistance. He also dislikes IL2 quite strongly even though he has a fascination with WWII planes. So I think darkhorizon (and his girlfriend) has a point. War is disgusting and the Eastern front even more so. Mimicking it is not very nice. The trouble is that it is very fascinating and fun...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pilots are generally reffered to men only seperated by the flag under which they fly. If you had any idea what you are talking about, you would know that the majority of the luftwaffe pilots where true gentlemen, as are most pilots. Most Luftwaffe pilots disagreed strongly with Hitlers ideals and only fought because they where ordered to and because they loved their country. While you are indeed entitled to your opinion, I am also entitled to mine.

SeaFireLIV
01-28-2004, 12:57 PM
Look just because your girlfriend`s a pilot and smart doesn`t mean she`s right on whatever she talks about.

For me I`m honouring the brave souls who fought for our liberty. FB has sent me scouring WWII books, understanding not just the Russian Air war, but the War in general. Its meaning and consequences.

I have learned more about the evil called war in WWII than any in other other time in my life (and I`m 37), because of IL2. It`s also one of the reasons I insist on full real settings.

Far from belittling war it has increased my wisdom and knowledge on it. A friend of mine I spoke to about the Russian air war once said, "They had aircraft?"

That`s about how much I knew before I purchsed FB. Battlefield 1942 belittles war, Silent Storm belittles war. Not FB.

Whatever. Maybe you should ask her to have a flight or two and not play the high n mighty aloof Judge.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Dark.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
01-28-2004, 01:04 PM
From Herman Goering, in Nuremburg Trial...

"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

---&gt; http://www.bettyelders.com/backsteps-part15.htm
This gives me problems, but over the FB I insist on German skins with swastika if I fly German or Soviet or USA planes (history). But I love teh FB. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Soviet Union suffered the most casualties of WW2, about 20 million military and civilian combined, and Oleg loves the FB too (well he better http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif ). And Oleg's favorite is Fb109, and the Emil cockpit is my fave cockpit after I-16 pit.



__________________
RUSSIAN lexx website http://www.lexx.ufo.ru/members.shtml
Stanly is a moron, kai is a walking dead beet, Xev just want sex.
:
you will still have FB , you will lose nothing ~WUAF_Badsight

BaldieJr
01-28-2004, 01:16 PM
This thread proves that women need us men to keep them busy, otherwise they start thinking, and thats not good.

Like 'war' is going to 'rub off' onto you or something. Jeez.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

tttiger
01-28-2004, 01:46 PM
When we get into this topic in threads -- and we have before and we will again -- it would be interesting if everyone posted their birth year by their signatures.

I really believe the attitude of flight sim players toward the war they are simulating is a generational thing. The further removed you are from the war (chronologically), the less personal it becomes.

BTW, I was born in 1946 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm initially stunned when someone in here posts their only contact with a WWII pilot is through an interview done by someone else. But then I realize this must be someone very young.

When I was growing up, my favorite uncle was a vet of the 406th FG (P-47s and I knew many of his squadrom mates), his next door neighbor had been a B-17 pilot. A good friend of my parents' had been Gen. Claire Chennault's personal C-47 pilot in the AVG. And one of his best friends, who was often over at his house, was Greg Boyington.

Now, most of them are dead. I went to a 406 reunion 10 years ago and it was a major effort to get a group of those retired colonels together to go to a restaurant http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But, the point is, most of us in my generation grew up around WWII vets. Hell, I even knew the airborne captain Ike is talking to in the famous picture taken the day before D-Day. It was all around us. It wasn't unusual. And, man, did they hate Germans...those guys sure didn't think the Nazis were "just like Republicans or Democrats."

I think to many younger people, WWII is as remote as the Civil War or the Spanish-American War are for me. There are no emotional ties to the sim.

I also think there are also many, many players who have never been in a war (I've been in two) or in the military at all. So, while they may see virtual wars and dogfight arenas as realistic, that's not the way battles are fought at all. But we're coming at it from different places.

I think it's a matter of perspective and since we have such a broad community in both age and nationality, there will always be disagreement. Even the losing side needs its heroes and it is no secret that many US pilots liked and admired Galland, who became a major figure in NATO, for example.

Your girl friend comes from a different perspective too (the fact that she has a pilot's license is one factor). Nice you're able to talk about these things.

Just some rambling...

Aloha,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

Callemangan
01-28-2004, 01:54 PM
Goering was spot on. But it doesn't stop there (rant ON); some people. like a typical American patriot, don't even has to be persuaded or coerced. They convince themselves about the righfullness about their wars. It's like they are brainwashing themselves (who needs orbital mind control lasers?).
Often they fall to tears when they see sentimental war movies http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif and talk about honoring the people who fought etc.
(Today I wouldn't dream of doing either.)
I have been interested in military stuff all my life, but since it actually is about blood letting and domination I have finally been fed up. I wish I never had got my interest and does my best to get some other hobbies*.
(rant off)
Sorry if I hurt somebody, but I had to get that out of the system as you say.
All I really want is for patriots to disable knee-jerk(w?) reactions and think twice before
they line for the recruiters office.

*Why I am here? Because I DREAMT of really good sims when I was younger. But the Amiga 500 couldn't offer much in that wayhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
And it IS only a SIM. Playing sims, FPS and such games is OK in my book because I will never participate or give support to any real world violence.

Ah, yes almost forgot the Swastika issue.
I guess the Russian legislation(w?) is the real reason behind the abscence of it.
Personaly I think the symbol looks good.
But I also like the Russian star.
Does that make me a Commie-Nazi?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

F19_Ob
01-28-2004, 01:59 PM
Seems people have given this matter some thought. thats good.

It is good to be seriousminded and to criticize events around us...and when doing it its good also to have some perspective, a part often forgotten and to have perspective is also quite rare and partly an agething.


Fb simulates a historical event and can give some clues of the nature of aircombat and many things related to it. but it is also a game and sport and a source of enjoyment for gamers, historically interrested and others. and I bet most of these can tell fiction and reality apart.



Another very interresting thing is the difference of male and female thinking and many females are not into war or actionrelated things at all.


So a suggestion is , if u get bad vibes for any reason when plaing a game ( fb for example)
Dont play it.
If u get something positive from it, then go ahead and play.


cheers

tttiger
01-28-2004, 02:07 PM
Symbolism is a very powerful thing and that Swastika is universally recognized as a sign of unmitigated evil.

To me, the only real LW hero was Molders, the first pilot, of any nationality, to acheive 100 kills.

Molders refused to wear any Nazi insignia on his uniform. He was Catholic and, in addition to 6 million Jews, Hitler gassed 2 million Catholics. Molders made his atatement by the way he wore his uniform and if you find a picture of him you'll see it is devoid of any insignia. Molders was killed while flying as a passenger in a Heinkel on his way to a meeting he was summoned to. The stories conflict whether the plane crashed or he was pushed out.

Symbols -- or removing symbols -- are very powerful.

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

JG7_Rall
01-28-2004, 02:47 PM
Do you think what was going on in the concentration camps was common knowledge to the Luftwaffe pilots? I doubt it. Yes, Molders was a great man IMO, but there where a lot of good and honest pilots in the LW. If you read anything about any one of the luftwaffe (easier to find info on the experten) then you will know what I'm talking about. Most people see them as evil, they where far from it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>like a typical American patriot, don't even has to be persuaded or coerced. They convince themselves about the righfullness about their wars. It's like they are brainwashing themselves (who needs orbital mind control lasers?).
Often they fall to tears when they see sentimental war movies and talk about honoring the people who fought etc.
(Today I wouldn't dream of doing either.)
I have been interested in military stuff all my life, but since it actually is about blood letting and domination I have finally been fed up. I wish I never had got my interest and does my best to get some other hobbies*.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad to see that you feel comfortable about letting off steam here, but please don't make the mistake of thinking that all of us Americans are like that. And btw, anyone crying over the loss of life is fine, you don't have to be American to do it.

VW-IceFire
01-28-2004, 02:58 PM
All I know is that this game has given me the impetus to learn even more than I knew about historical events ranging from the way people dressed during WWII to what the prevailing social attitudes were to how economics were working then and onto what the average person felt about the war, how they experienced it, how my own family members experienced it...so on and so forth.

I would hope that by recreation through various media we are providing the ability for generations to come to begin to understand what has happened before. Wars are terrible but at the same time wars should not be forgotten for what they are. In this form of entertainment we can see at face level perhaps a form of simulated violence but on another entirely more interesting level is the fact that it opens the interest to the sacrifices made before. I know I appreciate more about the history of my nation (Canada was in many ways shaped by WWII as was many other nations) and my own family history now that I am more immersed into it and if that means its through a game then so be it.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
The New IL2 Database is Coming Soon!

darkhorizon11
01-28-2004, 03:22 PM
Its all true I was just curious I hadn't seen a thread addressing these things. I didn't tell my gf about this thread because if she saw what some people wrote (specifically the stuff about the nocturnal sadamization, followed by some FB) I don't think I'd get any for a year. I'm still keepin' her, because well... I like boobies, but thats another topic for another forum. Thanks for your input. Were all entitled to our own opinions.

SeaFireLIV
01-28-2004, 03:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
I'm still keepin' her, because well... I like boobies,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, that`s a good reason to keep her. Just keep control of your mind too! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Udidtoo
01-28-2004, 03:56 PM
Darkhorizen, here's to thinking and questioning. Both you and your squeeze were given functioning brains for a good reason.

While I'm at it here's a big S' to two pages of reasoned and level headed posting without a single flame breakin out yet.

Oh ya, another S' to boobies....hooray boobies!

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

maverick7614
01-28-2004, 04:01 PM
Dude........ we are just Simulating a game that depicts the "feeling" of war. On a plus, we are all from different countries and what not. So the............ I lost what i was going to say.... bye

Slammin_
01-28-2004, 05:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Udidtoo:
Darkhorizen, here's to thinking and questioning. Both you and your squeeze were given functioning brains for a good reason.

While I'm at it here's a big S' to two pages of reasoned and level headed posting without a single flame breakin out yet.

Oh ya, another S' to boobies....hooray boobies!

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I can't let this one go by so.....


Whipped! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I'll post my more serious thoughts leter :-)

LEXX_Luthor
01-28-2004, 08:57 PM
Don't take a hard line with her.

Just "accidently" leave a printout of this on your desk at home...

---&gt; http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/litvak/litvak.htm

and this...

---&gt; http://www2.faa.gov/avr/afs/news/archive/mayjune2002/Flyers.htm


Who knows, it might get gf into letting you do FB, and you into simimng VVS planes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



__________________
RUSSIAN lexx website http://www.lexx.ufo.ru/members.shtml
Stanly is a moron, kai is a walking dead beet, Xev just want sex.
:
you will still have FB , you will lose nothing ~WUAF_Badsight

Bearcat99
01-28-2004, 10:47 PM
Im not going to say dump your girl...but I will say that that is partly a control issue. I will say that if you enjoy FB dont stop playing on her account...and if she cant accept that without giving you grief then that is something to think about. As far as her opinion, she is entitled to it but where are YOU coming from..that is what is most important. It would be different if this were something where the objective was to see how many Jews you could gas, or you were trying to catch and lynch folks of color, or you got points for running over old ladies or extra points for every pilot you shot in his chute.... (do we get that...??? I never looked to see.... I hope not..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif) It is a simulation of war which is not pretty.... I can understand somewhat where she is coming from. I still have a hard time with FPS because of that. But here..... when I stop the plane I back off... if the pilot bails..then great...as long as he cant come back to get me. Sorta like in RL.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://www.mudmovers.com/)

AJRobson
01-28-2004, 11:18 PM
Bearcat... I think you are right. Except this isn't "partly" a control issue.

It's ALL a control issue.

Darkhorizon: If YOU want to play the game.. then fine. Play it. It's JUST a freaking game. That happens to be pretty accurate.

But if you feel guilty about the game.. then stop.

Just remember that is it very important that a person always maintain their sense of "self".. or "differentiation" in a relationship. If one person can't accept the other person for who they are or what they like to do and then starts to control them.. you both start down a slippery slope. Sure.. maybe giving up a video game seems like a small thing.

But if you think it is ONLY a game and she DOESN'T.. then you have a rather fundamental difference in philosophy that might cause problems later.

True.. a relationship is also about compromise. But you should only compromise if you decide that is what you truely want to do.

So you get to chose... Forgotten Battles or boobies.

I will admit that I do like boobies.

But there a lot of other boobies out there.

http://home.comcast.net/~ajrobson/screens/sig1.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
01-28-2004, 11:59 PM
Yep, Bear is right as always.

I was thinking, you say she is pilot, then here is her chance to appreciate some real History. I pass that Lilya article out to USA school girls I tutor. They ~love~ Lilya. Nobody bothered to tell them about her.

Yes, it "is right"



__________________
RUSSIAN lexx website http://www.lexx.ufo.ru/members.shtml
Stanly is a moron, kai is a walking dead beet, Xev just want sex.
:
you will still have FB , you will lose nothing ~WUAF_Badsight

WUAF_Badsight
01-29-2004, 02:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by darkhorizon11:

She on the other hand is a very smart girl and said it wasn't the fire or death but the theme of the game. She quickly said that IL2FB simulates what happened graphicly to hundreds of thousand of men and ruthlessly.
War is generally thought of as the closest thing on Earth to hell. And we simulate it with glee <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes we enjoy shooting other people down online

i got to laugh at SeaFireLIV tho , boy when someone gets told what their doing is wrong man-o-man do they defend it if they enjoy it (even if it is a wrong thing to do)

which brings me to the point of my reply

if a person is right , does it make them Less right if their being right means that you should stop doing something that you enjoy ?

of course it doesnt

then again people dont like being told what to do

we all want the things that we enjoy

being told to not do something that we enjoy doing brings out the rationalsing abilitys like nothing else in humans

Slush69
01-29-2004, 02:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you had any idea what you are talking about, you would know that the majority of the luftwaffe pilots where true gentlemen, as are most pilots. Most Luftwaffe pilots disagreed strongly with Hitlers ideals and only fought because they where ordered to and because they loved their country. While you are indeed entitled to your opinion, I am also entitled to mine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif Most Luftwaffe pilots where true gentlemen? Did you meet/talk/live with them 1939-45, or how have you developed this intriguing insight to Luftwaffe psyche?

The Luftwaffe was by far the most nazified of the 3 combat arms: Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine. Here you had the most ardent followers of Hitler, typified by the blond, Arian fighter pilot as an example of the Nazi Supermensch.

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif

Slush69
01-29-2004, 02:30 AM
Oh, and regarding the whole point of this thread, here are my two Kavorkas worth:

I enjoy war games, be they simulations or strategy games, but in the end I have to admit that winning in those games comes from simulated kills on human beings. Fine, I got no problem with that once I think it through.

What I do have a problem with though, is the unreflected acceptance of such games, and what little thought there's given to it. One example to illustrate, what I mean: Not long ago we had a thread here, where a father complained that there was cursing in FB, so he couldn't let his children play it.

He couldn't let his children enjoy themselves with simulated killing, because there was cursing involved? That's truly bizarre.

As I said: My opinion, feel free to ignore.

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif

SeaFireLIV
01-29-2004, 02:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
i got to laugh at SeaFireLIV tho , boy when someone gets told what their doing is wrong man-o-man do they defend it if they enjoy it (even if it is a wrong thing to do)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks. glad to entertain you.
The real point of my slightly angry response is about control (just as Bearcat99 and a couple of others have said). I was more angry about the obvious worship going on here and the point to where it seemed this guy was in danger of not having his own thoughts and opinions.

Also, it seems to me a boy/girl thing. Most girls simply aren`t into war (unless they actually MUST fight it, and are allowed to- like on the Eastern front) and that is partly reflected in the guy`s gf`s opinion.

In a relationship if your very simple entertainment (that harms noone) is going to be controlled , what next?

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/greypilots.jpg

[This message was edited by SeaFireLIV on Thu January 29 2004 at 05:34 AM.]

bakkan
01-29-2004, 09:55 AM
IMO, i think people are violent by nature, because Nature is violent itself. You just have to watch any Animal Planet progam to see what i mean.
I remember once, when i was an Air Force Cadet here in my country (Chile), there was a Captain that told us:"If people call you killers or assasin on the street, don't worry, because that is exactly what you are... you are here to learn how to kill people in a more efficient way and you will become in a well trained Assasin..."
at first, i thought... WTF? but then i realized that he was right thou, because i was, in fact, learning how to kill, also, it was my decision being there.
don't get me wrong, I really respect soldiers, because they have to deal with things that regular people don't even dream off.
I think that video games like FB, MOHAA or any other "violent" game, allow us to satisfy that hidden need of violence, without, actually, having to kill someone and deal with the moral issue that comes with that.

just my two cents

Chuck_Older
01-29-2004, 10:39 AM
Robert E. Lee- "it is well that war is so terrible, else we should become too fond of it"



Bottom line: Human beings are agressive, competitive, violent creatures.

We like action movies that contain violence
We have made pro wrestling a spectacle of simulated violence
We like violent sports
We find that when in war, men often enjoy shooting at one another

How about we look at soccer (or football if you like http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ). Fans get killed sometimes at matches.

So is a soccer computer game glorifying senseless destruction of human life?

Let's face it, we like exciting things, and many elements of war attract us. A simulation about farming would be boring, but an aerial combat sim is exciting.

This comes up every so often and you know what? Violence in games and TV do not carry over into people's personal lives unless there is already a factor that invites violence, such as a person who is pre-disposed to that anyway. If that weren't the case, I'd be a mass murderer by now, having seen almost every action, horror, and war movie ever made. All that glorification of violence should have rubbed off by now.

bye bye, have to go run down some pedestrians because I have a game on a computer where it's fun to do. Must be OK in the real world http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

PS

there's nothing wrong with your girlfriend, she just has a different opinion than you do.

*****************************
do I hear the echoes of the days of '39? ~Clash

tagert
01-29-2004, 10:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakkan:
IMO, i think people are violent by nature, because Nature is violent itself. You just have to watch any Animal Planet progam to see what i mean.
I remember once, when i was an Air Force Cadet here in my country (Chile), there was a Captain that told us:"If people call you killers or assasin on the street, don't worry, because that is exactly what you are... you are here to learn how to kill people in a more efficient way and you will become in a well trained Assasin..."
at first, i thought... WTF? but then i realized that he was right thou, because i was, in fact, learning how to kill, also, it was my decision being there.
don't get me wrong, I really respect soldiers, because they have to deal with things that regular people don't even dream off.
I think that video games like FB, MOHAA or any other "violent" game, allow us to satisfy that hidden need of violence, without, actually, having to kill someone and deal with the moral issue that comes with that.

just my two cents<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is alot of truth in what you say! Problem is you will catch alot of flack for saying it! Because people dont want to belive the truth about people.. But I agree with you 100%

TAGERT

LEXX_Luthor
01-29-2004, 10:46 AM
lol yes take her to Pro Wrestling. Lots of girls there shaking fist.

If she is a fundamentalist Trekkie, for you, No FB. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif



__________________
RUSSIAN lexx website http://www.lexx.ufo.ru/members.shtml
Stanly is a moron, kai is a walking dead beet, Xev just want sex.
:
you will still have FB , you will lose nothing ~WUAF_Badsight

bakkan
01-29-2004, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tagert:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakkan:
IMO, i think people are violent by nature, because Nature is violent itself. You just have to watch any Animal Planet progam to see what i mean.
I remember once, when i was an Air Force Cadet here in my country (Chile), there was a Captain that told us:"If people call you killers or assasin on the street, don't worry, because that is exactly what you are... you are here to learn how to kill people in a more efficient way and you will become in a well trained Assasin..."
at first, i thought... WTF? but then i realized that he was right thou, because i was, in fact, learning how to kill, also, it was my decision being there.
don't get me wrong, I really respect soldiers, because they have to deal with things that regular people don't even dream off.
I think that video games like FB, MOHAA or any other "violent" game, allow us to satisfy that hidden need of violence, without, actually, having to kill someone and deal with the moral issue that comes with that.

just my two cents<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is alot of truth in what you say! Problem is you will catch alot of flack for saying it! Because people dont want to belive the truth about people.. But I agree with you 100%

TAGERT<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
thanx for your support...

Bakkan

Skullin
01-29-2004, 11:37 AM
i put the swastika in the game so i could kill those crazy nazis. I like the historically correct aspect of this game very much. (you wouldn't believe how much i watch Discovery Wings these days).

Last week i was talking to my g/f's grandfather who is from England, and come to find out he was in the RAF. well, my jaw dropped i was so impressed. He was a mechanic and did the electrical work on the Lancaster's.

Anyways, we talked for awhile and the thing he said that stuck with me the most was ... that at the end of the war, when stationed in Germany, he was so discusted with all the death and destruction that they'd done to the Germans. Can you believe that? To me, that is the most honorable, un-hateful thing i've ever heard. Since then, i don't shoot at people's parachutes !!
LOL

AirBot
01-29-2004, 11:48 AM
"Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe", by two well respected American authors, certainly creates the impression that many of the German airmen were very fair and chivalrous.
The authors spent much of their lives talking with pilots on both sides, and they certainly aren't the kind of people you would dare call Nazis, so I tend to have faith in what they say.

Anyway, I don't see how the fact that German pilots were picked according to the traits of the Aryan race makes them Nazis. If Erich Hartmann was blond with blue eyes, does that automatically make him a Nazi? Maybe they were picked by the physical description of the Aryan man, but that doesn't necessarily mean they bore the corresponding ideology.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slush69:
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif Most Luftwaffe pilots where true gentlemen? Did you meet/talk/live with them 1939-45, or how have you developed this intriguing insight to Luftwaffe psyche?

The Luftwaffe was by far the most nazified of the 3 combat arms: Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine. Here you had the most ardent followers of Hitler, typified by the blond, Arian fighter pilot as an example of the Nazi Supermensch.

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Slush69
01-30-2004, 03:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AirBot:
"Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe", by two well respected American authors, certainly creates the impression that many of the German airmen were very fair and chivalrous.
The authors spent much of their lives talking with pilots on both sides, and they certainly aren't the kind of people you would dare call Nazis, so I tend to have faith in what they say.

Anyway, I don't see how the fact that German pilots were picked according to the traits of the Aryan race makes them Nazis. If Erich Hartmann was blond with blue eyes, does that automatically make him a Nazi? Maybe they were picked by the physical description of the Aryan man, but that doesn't necessarily mean they bore the corresponding ideology.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course not. That's why I didn't say that. What I did say was, that the Luftwaffe was the most "nazified" of the 3 combat arms. Next to the SS it was here, you would find the most ardent followers of Hitler.

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif

AirBot
01-30-2004, 05:35 AM
Well it seemed you were trying to say the Luftwaffe was the most "nazified" of the combat arms because many of it's pilots fit the description of the Aryan man. That may be true, but that doesn't mean they supported the ideology.

I'm genuinely interested: why are you so certain so many Luftwaffe pilots were Hitler's ardent followers?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slush69:
Of course not. That's why I didn't say that. What I did say was, that the Luftwaffe was the most "nazified" of the 3 combat arms. Next to the SS it was here, you would find the most ardent followers of Hitler.

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Slush69
01-30-2004, 06:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AirBot:
Well it seemed you were trying to say the Luftwaffe was the most "nazified" of the combat arms because many of it's pilots fit the description of the Aryan man. That may be true, but that doesn't mean they supported the ideology.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I pointed out in my earlier post, that's not what I was "trying" to say.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I'm genuinely interested: why are you so certain so many Luftwaffe pilots were Hitler's ardent followers? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I wrote in my previous two posts, and now write again, was, that the Luftwaffe was the most "Nazified" of the 3 combat arms. That's what I've read in every account of the rise of the Third Reich that mention the Nazi influence in the German state. It might of course be wrong, but I've never heard otherwise. Have you?

It's not surprising either. First of all the Luftwaffe owed its existence to Hitler and the Nazi party, secondly it was the combat arm that fitted most with the Nazi ideology and its roots in 1920's futurism.

Let me end this by pointing out that I do not claim that every Luftwaffe pilot was a Nazi. Of course not. My one and only point is, and has been throughout all this, that the Nazi influence was greater in the Luftwaffe than in the Heer or Kriegsmarine.

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif

TacticalSkirmsh
01-30-2004, 06:35 AM
This question always generates a lot of debate. Probably a great question to think about. Now to actually answer the question http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

I can only imagine that a veteran who lived through the horrors of war, seeing his friends killed, and human life wasted before him, most likely wouldn't appreciate the memories that this game would invoke.

Some others, perhaps, that might have escaped much of the "gruesomeness" of war might be intrigued by this realistic flight combat of the WW2 era.

The one thing I certainly do like about this game is its seriousness to detail and accuracy, and despite its "topic," its complete lack of gore. There is no "over-the-top" war fantasy portrayed here.

Further, I would tend to only imagine that combat pilots were somewhat spared the inhumanity of war as compared to army soldiers, as these were men were mainly in machines that never made the same type of personal contact as those that who fought in much closer proximity to each other.

That is not to say for a moment, however, that flight combat wasn't any less stressful, and that it didn't take an incredible toll on the person. I cannot possibly relate to what these men must have went through.

In the end it IS a war game. If one decides that no war game is suitable then it would include this game. However, for others, degree does matter, and what isn't found in this game compared to other types of war games matters.

As I suggested in a similar thread, once you figure out why little boys play cowboys and Indians in the first place, maybe then you'll have the answer to this question.

P.S. Keep the girlfriend and make her your wife. She makes you think; that's a good thing lad http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

AirBot
01-30-2004, 07:24 AM
Well, I think I'm being a bit slow today http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif, because I don't really understand what you mean when you say that the Nazi influence was greater in the Luftwaffe.
Are you saying the Nazis picked only these they considered true Aryans for the Luftwaffe?
Or are you saying that the Nazis tried hardest to instill the Nazi ideology in their Luftwaffe airmen?
Or are you saying that Luftwaffe pilots were Nazis, more often so than the other combat arms?
Or, or, or.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif I think I'm losing it, I better go lie down. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slush69:
What I wrote in my previous two posts, and now write again, was, that the Luftwaffe was the most "Nazified" of the 3 combat arms. That's what I've read in every account of the rise of the Third Reich that mention the Nazi influence in the German state. It might of course be wrong, but I've never heard otherwise. Have you?

It's not surprising either. First of all the Luftwaffe owed its existence to Hitler and the Nazi party, secondly it was the combat arm that fitted most with the Nazi ideology and its roots in 1920's futurism.

Let me end this by pointing out that I do not claim that every Luftwaffe pilot was a Nazi. Of course not. My one and only point is, and has been throughout all this, that the Nazi influence was greater in the Luftwaffe than in the Heer or Kriegsmarine.

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Slush69
01-30-2004, 08:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AirBot:
Well, I think I'm being a bit slow today http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif, because I don't really understand what you mean when you say that the Nazi influence was greater in the Luftwaffe.
Are you saying the Nazis picked only these they considered true Aryans for the Luftwaffe?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. Not as far as I know, and certainly not in the later years of the war.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Or are you saying that the Nazis tried hardest to instill the Nazi ideology in their Luftwaffe airmen?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not as far as I know. It might have been the case though, and it would have made sense.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Or are you saying that Luftwaffe pilots were Nazis, more often so than the other combat arms?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of: I'm talking 'personnel', not necessarily 'pilots'. But the answer is "yes", that's been my point throughout this.

cheers/slush
(About to log off and call it weekend)

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif

AirBot
01-30-2004, 09:22 AM
Strange, in all the reading I've done about German pilots I never encountered one who was described as a Nazi.

Anyway, if you're right, that's very sad. I liked seeing them as knights of the sky, but them being Nazis obviously puts a damper on that view. Of course, I realize that doesn't mean they were all like that, but still...

Have a nice weekend. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slush69:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Or are you saying that Luftwaffe pilots were Nazis, more often so than the other combat arms?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of: I'm talking 'personnel', not necessarily 'pilots'. But the answer is "yes", that's been my point throughout this.

cheers/slush
(About to log off and call it weekend)

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

watteville
01-30-2004, 11:53 AM
War is hell,

watch this quasy pornographic video that starts with an Iraqi farmer on his tractor and ends when wounded are finished off with high explosive 30mm shells. http://hraunfjord.com/Articles/ApacheWarCrime/Apache_Killing.htm

Skullin
01-30-2004, 12:09 PM
wow, nice video... is his site off a bit? or just me? either way he accommodated for it nicely.

SeaFireLIV
01-30-2004, 12:22 PM
I do not know the exact circumstances around that video( which is quite disturbing, be warned. But the death of any Human is one NOT to rejoice in.

[This message was edited by SeaFireLIV on Tue February 03 2004 at 10:29 AM.]

Insuber
01-30-2004, 12:31 PM
Darkhorizon11,

Tell to your girlfriend that I enjoy also WWII movies, especially the air war ones. Is this too politically uncorrect?

Regards,
Insuber

AirBot
01-30-2004, 03:21 PM
This video has been already posted in another thread, which promptly turned into a flame-fest because of it. Now either you're genuinely new, or you're a troll. Any way, the death of human beings isn't something to be taken as lightly as you do, and I don't see any reason to spoil this so far civilized thread with this disturbing yet completely off-topic video.

Please, would you be so kind as to remove this link before this thread goes down the drain?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by watteville:
War is hell,

watch this quasy pornographic video that starts with an Iraqi farmer on his tractor and ends when wounded are finished off with high explosive 30mm shells. http://hraunfjord.com/Articles/ApacheWarCrime/Apache_Killing.htm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fehler
01-30-2004, 03:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slammin_:
You need a new girlfriend! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, I was thinking the EXACT same thing when I read this!

But, before you get rid of this girl, you might want to get your ()()'s back before you dismiss her.

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

pettera
02-03-2004, 07:42 AM
I'm slightly puzzled by

"Strange, in all the reading I've done about German pilots I never encountered one who was described as a Nazi."

So what were they then? Maybe not all had the party book but they sure were a crucial part of the nazi war and propaganda machinery. Remember that Hitlers regime wasn't only supported by a handful criminals. The vast majority was in favor of Hitler and the Luftwaffe pilots were probably not an exception. In most historic literature on the war the language is quite sober and concentrate on the acts rather than the motives. That doesn't mean their motives were hounourable.

Petter

Huxley_S
02-03-2004, 08:08 AM
One of the main lessons of FB for me is that if I had to do this for real I would soil my pants.

It has given me massive respect for WWII pilots because I realise just how good _and_ lucky you had to be to survive.

As to the politics behind the war, this element is thankfully omitted from the game as are missions to destroy civilian targets. I don't think anyone wants to be reminded of that too much.

Is it ok to glorify war? No. Is it right to honour the brave? I think so.

For me this is the essence of FB.

HansKnappstick
02-03-2004, 08:19 AM
@AirBot:
For the reasons as to why the Luftwaffe was hosting a statistically important ammount of nazi followers you might consider the following:
On November 11th, 1918 Germany signed a cease fire, the Great War was lost. There were two branches of German miltary who considered the War as won: artillery and air force. Especially the airforce felt that the war should be fought further and that only some internal weaklings and traitors caused the loss. You can imagine that the nazi propaganda of the 20th was able to influence those people more than an average infantry officer who _saw_ the Great War lost on the ground.

@Pettera:
You are accusing the whole nation which produced Mozart, Koch (the one from tuberculosis), Goethe and Schopenhauer, you are doing this without a single proof. There is no way today to check the Germans' state of mind in the period in question. The last polls, and fre elections, were held in early 30s and then the nazi party hardly won 1/3 of votes. Thus your reasoning that "all Germans were nazis" is fauled, please do some reading beyond the war-time propaganda before you post on this topic again.

Huxley_S
02-03-2004, 08:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>War is hell, watch this quasy pornographic video that starts with an Iraqi farmer on his tractor and ends when wounded are finished off with high explosive 30mm shells. http://hraunfjord.com/Articles/ApacheWarCrime/Apache_Killing.htm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just checked out that video that watteville posted and I can say that if FB was anything like that I would not be playing it.

That video shows cold blooded murder as far as I'm concerned.

Funny how our favourite game is a simulation of War and her we see the reality of modern warfare _is_ a computer game.

Sick. Sick. Sick. That has just ruined my day.

bazzaah2
02-03-2004, 10:08 AM
The thing is if you have moral objections to a game then don't play it. But really it's much easier for people to object to a game that recreates events from 60 years ago than it is to get angry and DO something about all the issues on our current state, like environment, HIV/AIDS in Africa etc, which are of course more immediate.

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_05.gif

Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

LEXX_Luthor
02-03-2004, 11:05 AM
Oh please don't even go there. We all know "Environment" is from the Nazi bible Mein Kamph, which was influenced by USA and UK Eugenics Societies and psychiatry ("Mental Health").

Thomas Ferguson, US State Department, Latin American Desk, some 1981 interview:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Once population is out of control, it requires authoritarian government, even fascism, to reduce it. The professionals are not interested in lowering population for humanitarian reasons.

~ http://www.bettyelders.com/backsteps-part15.htm
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



__________________
RUSSIAN lexx website http://www.lexx.ufo.ru/members.shtml
Stanly is a moron, kai is a walking dead beet, Xev just want sex.
:
you will still have FB , you will lose nothing ~WUAF_Badsight

SeaFireLIV
02-03-2004, 11:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Huxley_S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>War is hell, watch this quasy pornographic video that starts with an Iraqi farmer on his tractor and ends when wounded are finished off with high explosive 30mm shells. http://hraunfjord.com/Articles/ApacheWarCrime/Apache_Killing.htm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just checked out that video that watteville posted and I can say that if FB was anything like that I would not be playing it.

That video shows cold blooded murder as far as I'm concerned.

Funny how our favourite game is a simulation of War and her we see the reality of modern warfare _is_ a computer game.

Sick. Sick. Sick. That has just ruined my day.&lt;HR&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;

Actually that video`s ruined my day for a few days now. It is indeed quite cold bloodied. The circumstances are difficult to tell exactly, but that was defintely a wounded, helpless man there. I know these things happen, but it`s still tough to stomache.

LEXX_Luthor
02-03-2004, 11:44 AM
A better one:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"The biggest problems are the damn national sectors of these developing countries. These countries think that they have the right to develop their resources as they see fit. They want to become powers."

~ Thomas Lovejoy, vice president, World Wildlife Fund USA, 1984 ...(interview I dunno?)
~ http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/malthsay.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Today, Lovejoy is chief Bio-Diversity advisor to World Bank president James Wolfensohn. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



__________________
RUSSIAN lexx website http://www.lexx.ufo.ru/members.shtml
Stanly is a moron, kai is a walking dead beet, Xev just want sex.
:
you will still have FB , you will lose nothing ~WUAF_Badsight

AirBot
02-03-2004, 11:50 AM
Do keep in mind that most Luftwaffe pilots weren't leftovers from the WWI era, but rather young men who had just enlisted.

Incidentally, I always thought the whole idea of the war being lost because of "backstabbers from within" was post-war propoganda?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansKnappstick:
@AirBot:
For the reasons as to why the Luftwaffe was hosting a statistically important ammount of nazi followers you might consider the following:
On November 11th, 1918 Germany signed a cease fire, the Great War was lost. There were two branches of German miltary who considered the War as won: artillery and air force. Especially the airforce felt that the war should be fought further and that only some internal weaklings and traitors caused the loss. You can imagine that the nazi propaganda of the 20th was able to influence those people more than an average infantry officer who _saw_ the Great War lost on the ground.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Old_Canuck
02-03-2004, 03:01 PM
Yes it sooo right. Smoked an He-111 today in Virtual Pilots at HL and got my bird parked with the gas gauge showing just over the empty mark. A few laughs with good friends on Teamspeak ... a few more shattered pixels but nobody really got hurt. What's not right is the pain we inflict on others in real life IMO.

What our wives and girlfriends watch on those TV soap operas is a much closer-to-home simulation of the real-life pain that people inflict on one another.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."