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cueceleches
07-29-2004, 05:30 AM
For those who may not know this special group, it was formed during the Battle of Britain by the Luftwaffe. It was mainly formed of 109s and 110s, and their main purpose was to act as fighter-bombers instead of just fighters. (actually, the 110 could carry at times an even greater load than the 111 and Do 17!! Source: The Most Dangerous Enemy, Stephen Bungay)

The idea was this Gruppe to hit specific targets acting as bombers, but benefiting of the realtive stealth of a smaller number and the fact that, once bombs released, they could protect themselves as fighters.

it seems that they made it really good during that summer, hammering radar stations and bouncing on main RAF airfields. Their loss rate was rather small compared with bomber groups escorted by fighters, and with the accuracy of a stuka.

Does anyone know what happened with this Gruppe after the Battle of Britain? Did it still operate as a separate Gruppe in the Luftwaffe? Did it acomplished more exploits?

Thanks!

cueceleches
07-29-2004, 05:30 AM
For those who may not know this special group, it was formed during the Battle of Britain by the Luftwaffe. It was mainly formed of 109s and 110s, and their main purpose was to act as fighter-bombers instead of just fighters. (actually, the 110 could carry at times an even greater load than the 111 and Do 17!! Source: The Most Dangerous Enemy, Stephen Bungay)

The idea was this Gruppe to hit specific targets acting as bombers, but benefiting of the realtive stealth of a smaller number and the fact that, once bombs released, they could protect themselves as fighters.

it seems that they made it really good during that summer, hammering radar stations and bouncing on main RAF airfields. Their loss rate was rather small compared with bomber groups escorted by fighters, and with the accuracy of a stuka.

Does anyone know what happened with this Gruppe after the Battle of Britain? Did it still operate as a separate Gruppe in the Luftwaffe? Did it acomplished more exploits?

Thanks!

Slush69
07-29-2004, 05:46 AM
Why not try the first google-hit?

/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/lort/Eurotrolls.gif

cueceleches
07-29-2004, 05:50 AM
IÔ┬┤m sorry, but I canÔ┬┤t access any search web from here. (and very limited other sites).Otherwise, I wouldnÔ┬┤t have asked.

butch2k
07-29-2004, 05:52 AM
Check for books from John Vasco http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif he is the best expert on EprGr 210 and ZG 1

cueceleches
07-29-2004, 05:54 AM
Thanks Butch! IÔ┬┤ll have a look into that!

Slush69
07-29-2004, 06:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cueceleches:
IÔ┬┤m sorry, but I canÔ┬┤t access any search web from here. (and very limited other sites).Otherwise, I wouldnÔ┬┤t have asked.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, glad I wasn't as much a smart-*** as I like to be. Anyway, the unit designation changed:

Erprobungsgruppe 210

Gruppenkommandeure:

Hptm Walter Rubensd├┬Ârffer, 7.40 - 15.8.40
Hptm Hans von Boltenstern, 16.8.40 - 4.9.40
Hptm Martin Lutz, 5.9.40 - 27.9.40
Obstlt Otto Hintze, 27.9.40 - 10.40
Maj Wilhelm-Otto Lessmann, 10.40 - 4.41
Formed 1.7.40 in K├┬Âln-Ostheim with:

Stab/Erpr.Gr.210 new
1./Erpr.Gr.210 from 1./ZG1 with Bf 110C
2./Erpr.Gr.210 from 3./St.G.77 with Bf 110D
3./Erpr.Gr.210 from 4./TrGr.186 with Bf 109E

On 24.4.41 redesignated I./SKG210:

Stab/Erpr.Gr.210 became Stab I./SKG210
1./Erpr.Gr.210 became 1./SKG210
2./Erpr.Gr.210 became 2./SKG210
3./Erpr.Gr.210 became 3./SKG210

And then:

I. Gruppe:

Gruppenkommandeure:

Hptm Karl-Heinz Stricker, 24.4.41 - 13.9.41
Maj Ulrich Diesing, 15.9.41 - 1.42
Formed 24.4.41 in Abbeville from Erprobungsgruppe 210 with:

Stab I./SKG210 from Stab/Erprobungsgruppe 210
1./SKG210 from 1./Erprobungsgruppe 210
2./SKG210 from 2./Erprobungsgruppe 210
3./SKG210 from 3./Erprobungsgruppe 210

On 4.1.42 redesignated I./ZG1:

Stab I./SKG210 became Stab I./ZG1
1./SKG210 became 1./ZG1
2./SKG210 became 2./ZG1
3./SKG210 became 3./ZG1

And again:

I. Gruppe:

Gruppenkommandeure:

Maj Joachim-Friederich Huth, 1.5.39 - 13.12.39
Hptm Wolfgang Falck, 14.12.39 - 22.6.40
Maj Ulrich Diesing, 1.1.42 - 2.3.42
Hptm Walther von Poka (acting), 2.3.42 - 7.3.42
Hptm Wolfgang Schenck, 7.3.42 - 20.8.42
Maj Joachim Blechschmidt, 20.8.42 - 12.4.43
Hptm Wilfried Hermann, 4.43 - 14.7.43
Hptm Max Franzisket, 14.7.43 - 19.7.43
Hptm August-Wilhelm Bier, 10.43 - 4.44
Maj Horst Grahl, 4.44 - 12.7.44
Formed 1.5.39 from I./ZG141 at J├╝terbog-Damm with:

Stab I./ZG1 from Stab I./ZG141
1./ZG1 from 1./ZG141
2./ZG1 from 2./ZG141
3./ZG1 from 3./ZG141

On 22.6.40 ordered to D├╝sseldorf and disbanded:

Stab I/ZG1 became Stab I./NJG1
1./ZG1 became 1./Erpr.Gr. 210 (at K├┬Âln-Ostheim)
2./ZG1 became 2./NJG1
3./ZG1 became 3./NJG1

Reformed 4.1.42 at Lechfeld from I./SKG210 with:

Stab I./ZG1 from Stab I./SKG210
1./ZG1 from 1./SKG210
2./ZG1 from 2./SKG210
3./ZG1 from 3./SKG210

On 13.10.43 renamed I./ZG26:

Stab I./ZG1 became Stab I./ZG26
1./ZG1 became 1./ZG26
2./ZG1 became 2./ZG26
3./ZG1 became 3./ZG26

Reformed 10.43 at Lorient from V./KG40 with:

Stab I./ZG1 from Stab V./KG40
1./ZG1 from 13./KG40
2./ZG1 from 14./KG40
3./ZG1 from 15./KG40

In 1.44 3./ZG1 and 7./ZG1 exchanged designations. On 12.7.44 moved to Welzow and was renamed II./JG4:

Stab I./ZG1 became Stab II./JG4
1./ZG1 became 5./JG4
2./ZG1 became 6./JG4
3./ZG1 became 7./JG4

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/lort/Eurotrolls.gif

k5054
07-29-2004, 07:21 AM
I understood their loss rate was not so good in the BoB. Why did they have six commanders in four months? What happened to those guys? The 110 was at a disadvantage when caught low down even by a Hurricane. The bomb racks did not jettison (IIRC) and caused top speeds to be reduced from the fighter variant.

cueceleches
07-29-2004, 08:46 AM
Yes, and IIRC, R├╝nbensdorffer was piloting a 110 when he was shot down.
I guess that later in the war, the Luftwaffe finally understood that the 110 was an excellent night fighter against bombers, but couldnÔ┬┤t fight any of the contemporary allied fighters, even the Hurri. But, the lesson about 109s as fighter-bombers was learnt, and they were very efficient at this task (as the P47 was in the opposite side). And, we also must take account of the fact that Goering was especially fond of this plane, thinking it was kind of long range 109, but he partly neglected its true performance: poor roll rate, poor acceleration, poor maneuverability.
IÔ┬┤ve also read that birtish pilots were not scared at all by the 110 rear gun, protected as they were by a huge engine first, and the windshield. (most attacks to 110s came from their 6 oÔ┬┤clock).

Anyway, thanks a lot Slush for this extensive info. I hope that ths week end IÔ┬┤ll be able to into the web for more.

JohnVasco
11-11-2004, 11:22 AM
To correct information in an earlier post, please note that Otto Hintze was never Gruppenkommandeur of Erprobungsgruppe 210. Following the loss of Martin Lutz on 27/9/40, Oblt. Werner Weymann became acting-Gruppenkommandeur. Weymann was lost in action on 5/10/40. The unit did not receive a new Gruppenkommandeur intil 1/11/40. In that time, Wolfgang Schenck led the Bf 110s of the unit on combat missions. When Lessmann joined the unit on 1/11/40, Lessmann was quite happy to fly as No. 2 to Schenck, as he (Lessmann) had no previous experience of flying fighter-bomber missions.

If anyone wants any further information on Erprobungsgruppe 210, it is all in 'Bombsights Over England', or I can be contacted on JohnVasco27@MSN.COM.

Hope the above helps.

John Vasco

Vipez-
11-11-2004, 03:08 PM
I wouldn't call 110 poor maneuverability, it turned very well for it's size.. it just had poor roll rate, which gave it a disadvantage in turn fights..