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Flyby_99
06-29-2004, 02:49 PM
As the subject title says, how does one find his way home after flying from the carrier to the target area and back again? Imagine settings as in Greatergreen. Will there be comms with the carrier for requesting a vector back home? Lots of water in the Pacific! Inquiring minds want to know.
Flyby out

my gun convergence is set to harmonize on your @ss, so hold very still. this won't hurt long!

Flyby_99
06-29-2004, 02:49 PM
As the subject title says, how does one find his way home after flying from the carrier to the target area and back again? Imagine settings as in Greatergreen. Will there be comms with the carrier for requesting a vector back home? Lots of water in the Pacific! Inquiring minds want to know.
Flyby out

my gun convergence is set to harmonize on your @ss, so hold very still. this won't hurt long!

Chuck_Older
06-29-2004, 03:00 PM
Well, a real pilot would have a radio and an emergency might dictate a call home http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif So that would help, of course you would get a bearing, and you may be 180* off...

In a combat scenario, when radio silence is enforced let's say, a real pilot might get breifed on where his ship was when he took off, and then where it should be when he is scheduled to land. To quote a real navy pilot:
"The worst thing about Naval Aviation is that they keep moving my airfeild" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

A real pilot would have to take and pass a real life course in Navigation. Have you ever seen the map table in a plane like a Grumman Wildcat? A shelf pulls out, right over the control stick. So, how does a ship Pilot naviagte? Latitude, longitude, and time. "Five minutes at heading three two zero" sort of stuff. Get that wrong, and it's dead reckoning time.

Pull out yer maps, gents, it's time we headed home...

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

faustnik
06-29-2004, 04:05 PM
Give your AI wingman the RTB command. Follow him.

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Latico
06-29-2004, 04:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Give your AI wingman the RTB command. Follow him.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
_http://www.7jg77.com is recruiting_
_http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=31_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THAT"S CHEATING!!!!!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

And besides that, if you don't have any wingmen left, what are ya gonna do, Huh?

Atomic_Marten
06-29-2004, 04:36 PM
The real question that u should ask yourself is: when I took off from my carrier will I be able to find my target in the Greatergreen... that is the issue (if not problem http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) in the IL-2 already.

Finding a good path to target is way tougher job than going home after mission. When u get a high rank and took command of your flight you gonna ask yourself this question a lot, especially if the navigation remains the same as in IL-2. You have no map route in IL-2 (in-game) and often u are forced to find your way by recognizing land-marks, using compass, and clock of course. That is, if u are not using autopilot. Those landmarks in PF will not exists(or will rarely be seen). IMO finding way back home in PF will be easier than in IL-2 'cause you will be able to recognize better objects on the sea than on land. Carriers often have trails behind them.

You will be in big trouble only if your compass gets screwed, otherwise get use to your A/C, then practice=no problems with navigation back home without autopilot... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

faustnik
06-29-2004, 05:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Latico:

THAT"S CHEATING!!!!!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

And besides that, if you don't have any wingmen left, what are ya gonna do, Huh?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a thought. Don't get upset.

How this. Remember the sector you left from, check the heading of your carrier on the way out. Fly back to where you think the carrier will be. Fly around until you run out of gas or find the carrier.

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Fliger747
06-29-2004, 05:33 PM
A whilst back I posted a photo of a (WWI)USN MK II plotting board that I have. During the brief "Point Option", the location (lat-lon) where the carrier was SUPPOSED to be a the approximate time of recovery was revealed. using geometry and the distance scales, rotating wheel and scales one could plot the whole set of courses and distances of the legs on the board. One "popular" method was to put point option in the middle and work backwards. What remained was to calculate the time each leg would take at the forcast speed, and then fly the whole thing, course ,speed and time as closely as possible. Then there is the issue of magnetic vrs. true heading etc.

So now and then enough REAL naval aviators got lost. There was a YE beacon on the ship (already explained as well) which had enough range to perhaps help one find the ship when pretty close, depending on altitude, maybe 40 miles. Due to combat variables, the ship if still afloat) might not be at point option, or even near. Sometimes clues, like spotting the wake of an escort, returning enemy strike, AA bursts etc were valuable.

heywooood
06-29-2004, 05:50 PM
this article (http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/articles/wildcat/wildcat_1.asp) describes alot of this stuff.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/3tbm_avenger.jpg
Goin'fishin'

Flyby_99
06-29-2004, 06:29 PM
hi guys,
thanks for the replies. Sorry I wasn't clearer,but I wanted to ask about how finding the carrier would be accomplished in PF. Does anyone know? Maybe I overlooked that somewhere.
thanks,
Flyby out

my gun convergence is set to harmonize on your @ss, so hold very still. this won't hurt long!

heywooood
06-29-2004, 07:38 PM
I posted the article only to illustrate how it was actually done...as how PF will simulate this aspect of PTO navigation? I have seen no update or illustrations as yet from any of the developers.

Personally - what I would like to see in carrier campaigns is a plotting table replace the map for briefing that we have in FB... along with waypoints for both the mission aircraft AND the carrier.. and maybe a DF signal like the article I posted refers to.
At least in the higher realism settings - I suppose if you select 'easy' settings - the carrier would be represented in the pilots onboard map.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/3tbm_avenger.jpg
Goin'fishin'

Fliger747
06-29-2004, 08:59 PM
The YE/ZB system broke the compass rose around the ship into 15 degree segments, transmitting a different letter pair in Morse code for each segment. It is not clear from his discription, but this is not a DF system, which would have a directional ambiguity as to the direction of the ship, but gives you your bearing (within 15 degrees) from the ship depending on the coded letters recieved (changed every day). The main disadvantage is that the range was limited, and varied with altitude such that at 800' it would be quite limited in Range, maybe only 10 miles!

A good story illuminating some of the real problems faced by Naval Aviators of the era!

heywooood
06-29-2004, 09:03 PM
Right Fliger - I use the reference DF as meaning a form of 'direction finding' not as the DF beacon - sorry.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/3tbm_avenger.jpg
Goin'fishin'

IV_JG51_Razor
06-29-2004, 09:55 PM
Let's start off with an assumption. Let's assume that PF will not be any different than FB as far as the levels of navigation difficulty, depending on the realism settings. If you're in a "full real" server with minimap path turned off, I would think that a friendly field (CV) would show up on your map. The same goes for an unfriendly field http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It just won't show you where you are on the map. In a DF server, the ship isn't going anywhere, so your navigation problem is going to be pretty simple. Just keep track of your time, distance, and heading, and you shouldn't have too much trouble getting back home.

In a Coop, on the other hand, things could be a bit different for PF. I would expect that your carrier would have it's position, course and waypoints laid out on the briefing map (which, of course, would only be seen by the ones who click on that carrier's aircraft). You would have to take some pretty hastey notes to plot, not only your course to your target, but also the course to the carrier from the target. To do this you will have to make some pretty basic assumptions (such as I have in this post), such as the speed of the carrier, the time it's going to take you to get to your target, and hence, the distance the carrier will have traveled in that time. Based on those assumptions, and knowing what the course and waypoints of the carrier are, you should be able to make a pretty good guess at what direction you're going to need to go, and for how long, in order to get back home.

This is called "Dead reconing", or "Time, Distance, and Heading" I don't think it will be easy to do without keeping a note pad and stopwatch close by. A plotter is also a handy tool to have, as well as an E-6B whiz wheel! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I can't wait to see how Luthier deals with this. I'm sure it will be cool, regardles of how he does it.

EDIT: DOH!! I just realized that in a coop, if you follow your own waypoints, you'll always have a compass pointer telling you which way to go. If the mission is designed with just a takeoff and landing waypoint, you'll always have the pointer showing you the way home - again assuming that PF is done just like FB. It would be like the "escort" waypoint you get for a bomber formation. You needle always points to the bombers, whererver they are. In this case, the landing waypoint is moving, so the needle would follow it.

Razor
IV/JG51 Intelligence Officer
www.jg51.net (http://www.jg51.net)

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"

[This message was edited by IV_JG51_Razor on Tue June 29 2004 at 09:03 PM.]

RAAF_Edin
06-29-2004, 10:34 PM
Not every aircraft has got that compas needle showing him the heading to the next waypoint.

The thing that people will have to start learning and memorising are distances traveled at certain speed... but according to time. This will mean you will have to memorise all your headings... speed at which you should fly, altitude and heading...and keep them that way during the whole flight. You will have to keep track of time every couple of minutes (in case you get unexpected things like enemy aircraft) and convert that to distance traveled... and so on.

Most certainly... this will add highly to realism of flying a WWII aircraft as from that point on everyone will have to start to learn to navigate.

--------------------------------------
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Edin "Kuky" Kulelija
No1 Squadron RAAF

Pentallion
06-30-2004, 12:28 AM
We've been doing this a lot already in our Iron Skies Malta online war. (www.ironskies.net/ (http://www.ironskies.net/)) In fact, we have briefings that are vague as to the actual location of the target so that you only know within a grid or so where the naval targets might be. There is no minimap allowed you have to use navigational skills to find your target and get back home. At least Malta and Sicily don't move!

And for the North Africa ground battles we have expanded the MT map so far that you basically don't even have to fly onto the actual map at all. For example, this week the British pilots start 100km off the east end of the MT map and have to find targets ranging from 10km to 90 km south of the MT map, plus hidden targets 40-70 km southwest of the MT map. So all we will see is flat expanses of desert the whole way with a long flight to target to boot.

It gets to where you can navigate quite easily. I find having no landmarks makes no difference to me anymore. When I fly on other maps with land on them, I hardly ever look anymore. "60 km north, 30 km northeast, got it." Off I go.

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg

Tully__
06-30-2004, 04:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAAF_Edin:
Not every aircraft has got that compas needle showing him the heading to the next waypoint.

The thing that people will have to start learning and memorising are distances traveled at certain speed... but according to time. This will mean you will have to memorise all your headings... speed at which you should fly, altitude and heading...and keep them that way during the whole flight. You will have to keep track of time every couple of minutes (in case you get unexpected things like enemy aircraft) and convert that to distance traveled... and so on.

Most certainly... this will add highly to realism of flying a WWII aircraft as from that point on everyone will have to start to learn to navigate.

--------------------------------------
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
Edin "Kuky" Kulelija
No1 Squadron RAAF<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To make matters more complex, you'll also have to keep track of altitude to have some idea of how much difference there is between the speed shown on your instrument panel (Indicated Air Speed) and the speed you're actually flying (True Air Speed). The higher you fly, the bigger the discrepancy.

For a mission flown entirely at one altitude it's not so bad, 20 minutes out = 20 minutes back, but start varying altitudes and it's going to get real complex.

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Flyby_99
06-30-2004, 06:16 AM
once again, thanks for the replies. I'm just starting to feel comfortable navigating with no map icons (ala greatergreen), and I'm lousy at math! I'd like to see one of the developers respond to this thread, and give us a head's up on navigating over the open seas. It is certainly remarkable that in rl Navy fliers were able to fly several hundred miles, engage enemy ships then find (a moving)home plate again. Absolutely impressive. Young men going off to battle knowing that to get it wrong (not to mention the life-or-death action with the enemy)would mean ditching in the Pacific. Many never heard from again.
Flyby out

my gun convergence is set to harmonize on your @ss, so hold very still. this won't hurt long!

Nug01
06-30-2004, 06:42 AM
Very carefully.

Fliger747
06-30-2004, 10:37 AM
In the pre mission brief, the pilots would work out their courses on their plotting boards. For each leg one had to calculate the true course and distance, the speed and altitude and apply corrections for magnetic deviation, true airspeed, winds aloft (as well as known) and come out with a time, and magnetic heading for each leg. A lot of work, somewhat based on a plan that would probably fall apart, a hopefull "point option" where the carrier would be and winds aloft that might or might not be based on recent data.

Being "lucky" was always considered to be a valuable trait, and highly prized!

TheJoyStick
06-30-2004, 01:04 PM
It's simple, really....

The way to find the carrier, or any place on a map that you're interested in only takes about 20 seconds (for me, but I use maps quite often in real life)

So, say, your carrier is out in the middle of the ocean. It's the grid shows that it's in C4 sector.

Your mission is in H5.

So, you make note of the direction you're flying in via the compass on your plane, and fly to H5, blow stuff up, and want to go home.. What do you do?


Look at your map, find C4, look at your compass, and make sure you're going (should be) South west.

If you look at the map closely, you can see certain land markers that stand out on the map. When you fly over them, you will know that you are in the sector on the map.

So, just keep on flying. However, when you get over water, things get a bit trick, so just keep flying southwest til you see it.


That's how I do it.

james8325
06-30-2004, 01:06 PM
dont forget that carriers are not able to move in multiplayer servers. so u wont have to worry about your carrier moving in greatergreen.

Tully__
07-01-2004, 04:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheJoyStick:

....you can see certain land markers that stand out on the map. When you fly over them, you will know that you are in the sector on the map....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh look, there's that wave that's marked on the map http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif....hang on, there's another one just like it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif...and another http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif ....oh dear...



http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


We're talking about open ocean navigation here remember.....

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Flyby_99
07-01-2004, 06:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by james8325:
dont forget that carriers are not able to move in multiplayer servers. so u wont have to worry about your carrier moving in greatergreen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are you saying that in a PF multiplayer scenario the carriers will be static? Please tell me how you know this. It's not that I doubt you, but as the old saw goes: in God we trust; all others bring data.
thanks!
Flyby out

my gun convergence is set to harmonize on your @ss, so hold very still. this won't hurt long!

Baco-ECV56
07-01-2004, 04:13 PM
Well PF is based on FB, and in FBs Dogfight maps you cant have anithing moving or it will go north (I think) till it exits the map.

So Since I don´t belive that the code is being re-written for PF, we can asume that we can´t have any moving objetcs in a DF map.

But it is just an educated guess after all.
Maybe they are re-writting the code http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DivGlad
07-02-2004, 07:41 PM
Forgive me if I go slightly OT with this post, but the subject is very interesting (at least for me), but when we are talking about this stuff, we must know exactly how real ww2 airmen do this kind of stuff... not guessing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. Then we may compare it to our game to see if it is correctly shown in-game.

Another thing, could someone explain navigating in IL-2(on "Realistic" settings)? You can at every time ask your base for correct heading and match that number with your number on compass http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.... About IL-2 navigation;
1.How they do it (your base gives you correct heading at all times...?),
2.Is it how it was done during WW2?

heywooood
07-02-2004, 08:07 PM
go to page one of this thread and read the article I posted there... It is an interesting read about the way pilots found their way back to the boat.

Ready for Action
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg

Flyby_99
07-03-2004, 07:29 AM
Hmmmm...
I suppose the carrier could be given a " patrol route" to follow. This would at least insure that a pilot had a known search area for locating the carrier. One can set a ship up to follow waypoints in FB now. I can see one waypoint being a take-off point, and of course another being marked "recovery" (though I think there would be quite a few marked as such). That way there could be a tighter grouping of waypoints that overlap closely so as to represent an extended recovery pattern.
Well, that's my guess. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Flyby out

my gun convergence is set to harmonize on your @ss, so hold very still. this won't hurt long!

Fliger747
07-03-2004, 11:52 PM
An overriding consideation in carier tactics was the direction of the prevailing winds. Having to steam into the wind to launch and recover planes might not coincide with the desired tactical track to be in the best position for attack, recovery or to avoid detection.In the trade winds, the velocity and direction are fairly constant. This was often not to the advantage of the Americans.

Pentallion
07-04-2004, 11:55 AM
That brings up a good question Fliger:

The carriers would turn into the wind during takeoffs and landings but then they'd follow a more tactically advantageous route the rest of the time.

In coops, we have to route out the carrier paths the whole way. Obviously, we will have to know the wind direction for takeoffs so the carrier is oriented into the wind. But assuming we know this. Then we will have to know exactly when to reorientate the carrier back into the wind when the planes come back. Otherwise, the carrier will have to continue tracking into the wind the whole time which would be a bad thing in many circumstances.

I wonder if wind is modelled in takeoffs and if so, how coop builders will know which way to orientate the carrer?

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg

Latico
07-04-2004, 01:36 PM
I would think that if we have wind as part of the weather settings in the mission builder mission authors would be able to set the wind direction and speed for each mission, thereby know what heading to set for the carrier at the beginning of the mission for takeoffs and for recoveries.

For historical accuracy we'll probably have to do some research to get the weather conditions. The CV6.org site has the action reports and logs for the Enterprise and the weather conditions are always included in the ships reports. since the Enterprise was involved in almost all of the major carrier engagments we can probably use the CV6 records for any carriers that were also in the area at the same time. That would go for land bases as well.

Fliger747
07-04-2004, 02:05 PM
Indeed the need to steam into the wind for launch and recovery was complicated by various needs, such as anti-sub patrol, scouts, CAP etc, not just strike aicraft. And then manuvering whilst under attack. It helps one to understand that "point option", the forcast location of the carier at the return of a mission, might be off by a fair margin!

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2004, 02:35 AM
Most missions were flown to known land postitions. A lot of missions were flown to known sea positions, then the hunt would start for the enemy ships. The Pacific is full of islands big/ small/ quays, etc. When leaving the carrier the course (of course) is noted and nav skills used to find the target, time, speed, altitude, etc also the rough pick up position of the carrier was known.
After finding and engaging the target, initial position finding, in relation to the land target, was used to begin the trek home. Those same nav skills were employed to find the approximate area of the carrier and then visual/ radio location of the carrier for landing, did the rest. (not that disimilar to FB land maps, at the moment) In the case of a sea target.......dead reckoning, and using any available visual aid would be employed.
"If I flew for two hours at heading 275, at speed 350, to get home I should fly the opposite @ hdg 90 and speed 350. That'll get me pretty close."

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2004, 02:36 AM
Basically, basic waypoint navigation

Flyby_99
07-05-2004, 06:34 AM
Well these sure are some interesting and informational replies. I suppose we'll see, but it would be nice to know that up front.

I wonder how the AI carrier Catain will conduct launch-and-recovery operations? On a larger scale, I wonder how the AI ships will respond the qmb, and especially the fmb, and online coops? Speaking of the fmb, does anyone know if ships will be available as carrier groups? Perhaps they have already been addressed elsewhere.
thanks!
Flyby out

my gun convergence is set to harmonize on your @ss, so hold very still. this won't hurt long!

IV_JG51_Razor
07-05-2004, 04:34 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion that the only wind we'll see modeled in the game will be that which you see over the deck.....regardless of what the heading of the carrier is. This is the easiest thing for the developers to do at this point, and given the scope of their project, it's probably the right choice as well. The cross wind we experience while taking off in the stormy weather in FB could just as easily be made to blow right down the centerline of the ships. This will help facilitate the use of carriers (which will be static) in a DF server.

So, to sum it up, I think that the only wind we'll have in a coop, or single player mission, will be that generated by the carrier's speed, and the only wind we'll see in a DF server is that which is permanately blowing down the centerline of the ship.

Maybe we'll see something more dynamic in BoB, but for now, I'll be quite happy with this scenerio. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Razor
IV/JG51 11/12 Staffelkapitan
www.jg51.net (http://www.jg51.net)

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"

Zayets
07-06-2004, 01:27 AM
I ask myself , is this option still present in PF:
Tab-&gt;8-&gt;1 ?
Ask tower for vector to home.Online is ok , afterall we are a bunch to drown together http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg