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View Full Version : Immersion vs Gameplay



Zodjin
06-17-2015, 02:16 PM
Hi,

First of all the game looks great! Not only the characters are very detailed but the movements are very realistic too. Mostly :D! Since the DEV-Team did a great job in resaerching all kinds of different sword figthing styles, we should look for things that are not very likely :D.

Starting with the minions: All minions are smaller and have the same size. It s a great way to keep the overview over the battelfield and doesnt effect the immersion to much.

Ladders: The magical glued swords and sliding characters ;). Well i think, everybody has seen it so often, that it doesnt effect the immersion.

Rolling over characters during the fight: Well i dont believe that this move is teached in fighting sports ( i did Bujinkan, Kendo, Medival sword fighting), but it looks pretty cool and is great way to switch position, considering the gameplay. The movement looks good and possible though i dont believe that it was used. The possibility of falling on the ground is to high and if you fall you are pretty dead. Great way to change position and great animation - its ok i guess :).

Arrows: I cant see where the arrows and other ballistics are coming from. They seem to be generated in the sky. Well we only have one video and its the alpha footage but still. In my opinion the ballistics should be generated on point of firing, if it doesnt effect the performance. You can argue that you cant the see the arrows beforhand, but big rocks? It s disturbing me more than it shoud be and breaks my immersion :).

Arrowstrike: It s a cool ability, but why does he has archers always looking at him, waiting for his command? If he would light a signal fire or something, that would be great. But its a cool skill and breaks immersion only a bit :).

Rotation: You normally wouldnt show your back to the enemy. Never ever.

Swinging: In Kendo your movement ends where the body of your enemy ends. You dont swing your sword from left to right you cut trough them :). Knights do though :D. But no rotations :).

Glowing swords: Saw it in an other post. Yes its somehow disturbing. Cant tell the purpose yet.


Please write your opinion on immersion breaking features, how much you get kicked out of the medieval setting and how much it effects the gameplay :D.

Gavaroth
06-17-2015, 04:19 PM
If we're counting unrealistic things as breaking the immersion (Well, they do for me) I have few. Although I warn you that these things are hard to delete without breaking balance anyway.

Everything's about knights, maybe because we saw them played most.

1. Their armor is like butter. In medieval times it was actually hard to defeat a heavy armored knight just by swinging sword at them, axes and heavy maces were preferred (Eventually halberds to get them from horse, crossbows etc.). It was possible to slash mail in less protected places (Some joints) but... damn... we clearly see on the gameplay that the samurai has no actual problem in just piercing through heavy plate or slashing it. I know that it cannot be fixed while maintaining game balance but... damn... also arrows damaging knight for 50% HP while they shouldn't even pierce the armor.

2. Finishers made only to ,,look cool". Knight killing enemies with the damn hilt while holding it by a blade? I know that it won't hurt him through armored gauntlet but c'mon, I think it's just stupid, finisher showing him just chopping part of the enemy body off will be in same way pleasant to eye while less silly.

That's just my opinion, I don't think it will help anyone but I wanted to point that out when there's a thread specifically for this.

SnorriUlversson
06-17-2015, 04:37 PM
I'm not a swordmanship's expert, but here's my two cents: immersion is cool, makes you say "wow, well made very evoking etc." but whats make the difference from a good game to a great game is gameplay.
To me immersion is important, but if what I see is plausible (more or less) it's fine as long as the gameplay gets enhanced from it.
For istance the roll on the back is quite hard to perform in a real fight, but in this game adds more tactical options (change facing quickly) so more than welcomed

Zodjin
06-17-2015, 05:03 PM
If we're counting unrealistic things as breaking the immersion (Well, they do for me) I have few. Although I warn you that these things are hard to delete without breaking balance anyway.

Everything's about knights, maybe because we saw them played most.

1. Their armor is like butter. In medieval times it was actually hard to defeat a heavy armored knight just by swinging sword at them, axes and heavy maces were preferred (Eventually halberds to get them from horse, crossbows etc.). It was possible to slash mail in less protected places (Some joints) but... damn... we clearly see on the gameplay that the samurai has no actual problem in just piercing through heavy plate or slashing it. I know that it cannot be fixed while maintaining game balance but... damn... also arrows damaging knight for 50% HP while they shouldn't even pierce the armor..

Yeah thats true, but longbows and crossbows could penetrate the armor of knights. The english longbow archers were the reason heavy armored knights werent used anymore, if i remember correctly. But a sword against heavy plate armor...


2. Finishers made only to ,,look cool". Knight killing enemies with the damn hilt while holding it by a blade? I know that it won't hurt him through armored gauntlet but c'mon, I think it's just stupid, finisher showing him just chopping part of the enemy body off will be in same way pleasant to eye while less silly.

That's just my opinion, I don't think it will help anyone but I wanted to point that out when there's a thread specifically for this.

This technique to grab your sword by the edge and use it as a hammer actually exists :).


I'm not a swordmanship's expert, but here's my two cents: immersion is cool, makes you say "wow, well made very evoking etc." but whats make the difference from a good game to a great game is gameplay.
To me immersion is important, but if what I see is plausible (more or less) it's fine as long as the gameplay gets enhanced from it.
For istance the roll on the back is quite hard to perform in a real fight, but in this game adds more tactical options (change facing quickly) so more than welcomed

Yes totally right. Thats why i made this thread. To discuss how much the gameplay effects the immersion and what could be changed without ruining the gameplay.

Gavaroth
06-17-2015, 07:10 PM
Sure, longbows could do when they were high-quality, wielded by trained archer and when arrow were going straight, not on a curve like in arrow rain skill. Crossbows also were able to penetrate plate armor, although that it still depends on armor quality and the distance of course.

About using sword as a hammer... I know, but it wasn't popular, it was rather something like line of hope against armored oponnents, not very succesful in duels, more like a surprise type of thing. Meanwhile some characters of For Honor seem to really like using it often.

Anyway, yeah, gameplay is more important than realism. I'm just a person that hates lack of that second thing. But even that's not stopping me from playing this game, I just love giant, armored knights. I hope that there will be a heavily defensive character with strong attack capabilities, but slow, heavy or even having problem with going through some spaces. As something brought often in terms of this game, "like Mountain from Game of Thrones".

SnorriUlversson
06-17-2015, 07:16 PM
Probably there will be something like this (sword and board knight?) and on the other side a fast glass cannon (the samurai assassin?) as the two extremes

Gavaroth
06-17-2015, 07:21 PM
To be honest I don't like that tanks are often portrayed as massive, armored monsters with heavy weapons while for the sake of balance doing barely any damage, only maintaining defense capability. Maybe they could introduce something like weight system? You know, harder for you to stop from running, more damage from falls or maybe even making character unable to go through specific places, like wooden catwalks.

Oh! And for our discussion about realism/gameplay I found an interesting video. I haven't watched the entire one yet, but I see already that it covers the topic of speed, rolls of armored people and even fighting with a sword like a hammer.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xh5lw2_ngc-medieval-fight-book-part-3-3_shortfilms

SnorriUlversson
06-17-2015, 08:44 PM
Just amazing!

spaff_meister
06-17-2015, 10:59 PM
To be honest I don't like that tanks are often portrayed as massive, armored monsters with heavy weapons while for the sake of balance doing barely any damage, only maintaining defense capability. Maybe they could introduce something like weight system? You know, harder for you to stop from running, more damage from falls or maybe even making character unable to go through specific places, like wooden catwalks.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xh5lw2_ngc-medieval-fight-book-part-3-3_shortfilms

I'm a big fan of this weight-based system idea.

It would also be nice to see more HP/Armour effectiveness on PCs and NPCs - maybe exclusive to a "realism" mode, along with the subtraction of combat directional markers etc, for more experienced/serious players.

Health and armour would be better, which wouuld mean that a person and their team would have to use tactics such as specific weaponry and strategy (faking map areas and singling out opponents in 2v1) to take down a hero. Maybe also then, heroes would have a small number of lives per game (3?). I can see a mode like this taking off well within the eSports community, should this game get that far, otherwise I worry that it may be too casual for such a hardcore crowd.

Gavaroth
06-18-2015, 01:09 PM
I'm a big fan of this weight-based system idea.

It would also be nice to see more HP/Armour effectiveness on PCs and NPCs - maybe exclusive to a "realism" mode, along with the subtraction of combat directional markers etc, for more experienced/serious players.

Health and armour would be better, which would mean that a person and their team would have to use tactics such as specific weaponry and strategy (faking map areas and singling out opponents in 2v1) to take down a hero. Maybe also then, heroes would have a small number of lives per game (3?). I can see a mode like this taking off well within the eSports community, should this game get that far, otherwise I worry that it may be too casual for such a hardcore crowd.

I'm glad someone likes my idea. You're saying about armor and specific weapons, and that's a pretty good idea. To deal significant damage to heavily armored opponent you'll need some heavy crushing/piercing weapon, otherwise you just scratch him. To get over the tower shield you need a good strategy, flanking and fast movement. Limited number of lives is also a very good thing for such a realism mode we're talking about.

About weight system... I guess that it would make possible balancing tank with heavy hits. I mean... he's very hard to kill, he's killing easily. But what about that when he cannot chase you, squeeze through small spaces (Heavier character would probably be bigger too) or for biggest, heaviest, baddest warriors even impossible to go down using ladder (Must go around, by the stairs). It would make character like that superior in combat situations but very depending on teamplay when it'll come to actually killing enemies, because most of them will probably run.

It will put some balance when it comes to the nations too. Samurai won't be a giant, armored freak with heavy axe or tower shield, that's for sure, but instead they will have skills making them really flexible nation on the battlefield. Plus almost all of them will be rather lightweight, making them very mobile.

But in this case I don't know what about vikings. Knights will have really strong combat characters but practiccally no lightweight ones, thus making them less mobile than samurais. The Chosen will have skills and mobility and vikings? I really don't know, I won't give them offence and defence over knights, nor mobility and skills of The Chosen. I guess they could be medium ones in this case. Most characters medium weight, medium combat stats and few skills. But they're vikings, dammit, they should have a heavy, musclebound class as well. But that's possible to do.

If someone wants, comment my ideas. I would be happy if we could cut this into something fitting into game, mostly realism mode if something like this will exist. If it will be good, maybe developers will take some of it? :)

Assassin_M
06-18-2015, 03:18 PM
When you start conceptualizing the game, whatever you come up with has to stick, it has to be fun, for lack of a better word. Sure, immersion must stay in things like world consistency in animation, feedback..etc. Lets take for example what you said about rolling over characters. It's not completely realistic and it is indeed not taught (I do European fencing) but it's fun and, as you said, it looks cool. Video games are a fantasy, first and foremost and fantasies are almost always power plays. Such a move makes players feel cool because we see it in movies and cool trailers, so they have a decision: Keep it completely realistic or break the rules sometimes to offer a better experience. I think they it was the choice.

Beas7ie
07-04-2015, 08:46 AM
If we're counting unrealistic things as breaking the immersion (Well, they do for me) I have few. Although I warn you that these things are hard to delete without breaking balance anyway.

Everything's about knights, maybe because we saw them played most.

1. Their armor is like butter. In medieval times it was actually hard to defeat a heavy armored knight just by swinging sword at them, axes and heavy maces were preferred (Eventually halberds to get them from horse, crossbows etc.). It was possible to slash mail in less protected places (Some joints) but... damn... we clearly see on the gameplay that the samurai has no actual problem in just piercing through heavy plate or slashing it. I know that it cannot be fixed while maintaining game balance but... damn... also arrows damaging knight for 50% HP while they shouldn't even pierce the armor.

2. Finishers made only to ,,look cool". Knight killing enemies with the damn hilt while holding it by a blade? I know that it won't hurt him through armored gauntlet but c'mon, I think it's just stupid, finisher showing him just chopping part of the enemy body off will be in same way pleasant to eye while less silly.

That's just my opinion, I don't think it will help anyone but I wanted to point that out when there's a thread specifically for this.


Actually hitting people with the hilts of swords was a realistic and very effective technique. It wasn't uncommon for a knight to reverse his sword so it becomes a bit like an ax to penetrate armor. Also if you notice, that is combined with "half swording" which is a very effective fighting style in which the knight uses his sword with more of a spear like stance. You can see it in action when he fights the minions and while it is a bit flashier than what it would have been in real life, it's not unrealistic. This is what got my attention the most as not a single game that I know of has had this type of combat before.


The armor part you mentioned is accurate, but keep in mind it's hard video games to accurately utilize armor as most armor especially heavy armor like what knights used weren't to "decrease" damage when you got hit. They negated it completely so they could only be hurt by certain techniques or weapons that were designed to penetrate armor. Depending on the armor, you could hit someone all day and not do a darn thing except put a few dents in their armor and cause some minor aesthetic damage.

Of course that's pretty much impossible to accurately depict in games as no game I know of has ever managed it. Also a lot of things are meant to be flashy and cool in order to draw the crowds so to say, and then you have to make other adjustments and changes for balance and gameplay purposes so everything runs and smooth and no faction is overpowered or underpowered.


As for arrows, most won't penetrate a knight's armor, BUT if one does get the force to penetrate or the archer is good(or lucky) and hits a weak spot then that arrow is gonna ruin the knight's day. If you want to be super immersive with that then arrows need to be changed so your character takes a lot of damage, possibly is killed outright, and if he or she survives that then probably dies a few days later from infection. I don't know about you, but I personally don't think that would make for a very fun game.

WYRDB0Y
07-04-2015, 12:38 PM
Asking for realistic armor behavior is pointless and is never ever ever ever gonna happen, because balance > immersion. They are not gonna redo animations because you don't like gamey damage system. You should be glad the animations are real techniques mocapped and look high quality and fluid as it is. As for the arrows, they could add some arrows stuck in your amor, but that's it, it's going to do the same damage no matter what, because it's a AOE skill in a combat game not armor simulator 2016.

ze_topazio
07-04-2015, 02:39 PM
When did "Immersion" and "Realism" became synonymous with each other?

Havemercy87
07-04-2015, 04:02 PM
Hey all, just read through this thread and some brilliant thoughts are going around. I'm sure the devs will consider these if they haven't already. I'm excited to see the stats on gear as they will probably answer slot of these questions.

Willaguy2010
07-05-2015, 05:38 AM
The idea of grabbing the sword by the blade was used very commonly by Knights, especially when facing other Knights, I'm not sure about the hammer thing but grabbing the blade is called half-swording. And I think that the Legions would be too OP if they were realistic Knights. Despite their armor they had considerable maneuverability and excellent protection.

MisterWillow
07-05-2015, 06:51 AM
When you start conceptualizing the game, whatever you come up with has to stick, it has to be fun, for lack of a better word. Sure, immersion must stay in things like world consistency in animation, feedback..etc. Lets take for example what you said about rolling over characters. It's not completely realistic and it is indeed not taught (I do European fencing) but it's fun and, as you said, it looks cool. Video games are a fantasy, first and foremost and fantasies are almost always power plays. Such a move makes players feel cool because we see it in movies and cool trailers, so they have a decision: Keep it completely realistic or break the rules sometimes to offer a better experience. I think they it was the choice.


Asking for realistic armor behavior is pointless and is never ever ever ever gonna happen, because balance > immersion. They are not gonna redo animations because you don't like gamey damage system. You should be glad the animations are real techniques mocapped and look high quality and fluid as it is. As for the arrows, they could add some arrows stuck in your amor, but that's it, it's going to do the same damage no matter what, because it's a AOE skill in a combat game not armor simulator 2016.


Basically this (though the second one is a bit harsh).

They're making it as realistic as it needs to be to give you the thrill of a duel while retaining the spectacle of a film fight. It's not trying to be a mediŠval simulation, despite the realistic sword techniques on display.

If you want something closer to a simulation, check out Kingdom Come: Deliverance (https://www.kingdomcomerpg.com/).

pacmanate
07-05-2015, 12:37 PM
Gameplay and Immersion/Realism need a careful balance, you can't have one dominating the other.

I wouldn't want my Knight doing backflips off walls just because gameplay wise it looks cool, but neither would I like him to be really slow and clunky in battle.

abexuro
07-05-2015, 06:44 PM
From what I understand there's light attack and heavy attack in the three different directions. What about adding a "switch mode" button so you could choose to change to halfswording or even the hilt-hammer thing? Right now they only use these techniques randomly in the animations, it could be a game-mechanic instead. You could change to halfswording when facing heavily armored opponents or even during a duel to surprise an enemy.
Though to be fair this is taking it a bit far, seeing what they have done with the game so far I don't really expect this to be considered. Just fun to think about.