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crogall
01-23-2004, 03:29 AM
Sorry i'm looking for some advice: if you are engaged in a one on one dogfight with an enemy plane faster and with higher turning performances, which is the best way to behave, in order to hold on as long as possible or to even try to damage your dangerous opponent? Thanks for your help.

crogall
01-23-2004, 03:29 AM
Sorry i'm looking for some advice: if you are engaged in a one on one dogfight with an enemy plane faster and with higher turning performances, which is the best way to behave, in order to hold on as long as possible or to even try to damage your dangerous opponent? Thanks for your help.

HansKnappstick
01-23-2004, 03:36 AM
Go to a cloud, lose him, go home, and take a better aircraft...

More seriously, you may count on your homebase Flak to punch some holes in his aircraft. This is what I am constantly doing since I tend to lose most DF I enter.

Slush69
01-23-2004, 03:45 AM
Look for any advantage you might have: Can you roll faster? Dive or climb faster? Have a higher sustained turning speed? Anything. And then try to make the enemy fight YOUR battle. That's easy to write, but difficult to do. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

cheers/slush

http://www.wilcks.dk/crap/Eurotrolls.gif

WUAF_Badsight
01-23-2004, 03:59 AM
relying on a performance of your plane to win the DF is a backwards way to approach a DF

the plane isnt going to win a DF

its YOU YOURSELF that has to get the guns on the Bandit & its YOU YOURSELF that has to make the neccessary hits on the bandits plane

sadly this question has only one answer

. . PRACTICE . . .

remember more DogFights are lost than won

MORE OFTEN THAN NOT IT IS : . . .

one person making the mistakes that give the other the opportunity to try for a kill

RATHER THAN

one person out-flying the other with succesive move after move that was performed better than the other

more dogfights are given away than won

piloting skills come from NO OTHER source than PRACTICE

AirBot
01-23-2004, 05:03 AM
Look for any advantages you might have and try to use them against him. For example, if his plane falls apart in a dive, try to dive away from him.

You can also count on clouds or friendly AAA to get a bandit off your six.

When all else fails and you feel you're truly outclassed, try giving him as hard a time as possible. Break every time he gets a good firing solution, and try to go for headons. Since headons are like rolling dice to see who wins, he either gives up much of his advantage and gives you a chance to down him, or he breaks off the headon, possibly giving you a chance to meneuver behind him.

Aimosika
01-23-2004, 05:27 AM
Keep your energy! Speed and altitude is life=energy. Always try to maintain altitude advantage. After any attack try to take that alt loss back. When the battle starts usually plane that has more energy (alt) wins...
This naturally needs boom&zoom fighting tactics.

AlGroover
01-23-2004, 05:28 AM
Stay near your buddies. Never surrender altitude or speed. Try and get him to bleed energy by forcing him to turn tighter than you, this will negate his speed advantage. A very difficult situation.

Yum_Yum
01-23-2004, 06:42 AM
Hello http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am not an expert http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You don't say what aircraft you are using and different aircraft have different attibutes!.

For me ...
If the enemy aircraft is faster and can turn tighter, it may be becuse they is using an aircraft which performs better at "high speed" but may have poor "low speed" handeling http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
If this is so, you could try to bring the fight speed down to slower speed better suited to the aircraft you are using.
To do this may put you at greater risk of being shot down ... but at times of desperation ... doing anything is better than nothing.

Player experience is more effective than the aircraft they fly, maybe the aircraft attacking you is flown by a player with more experience.

Using lots of rudder while being chased is good because it is deceptive to the shooter .. and gives them a false impression of what your plane is actuly doing, causing them to miss more

Remember ..
If all is lost it does not matter how you lose ... so trying anything is better than doing nothing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.... and it may even work!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

F19_Ob
01-23-2004, 09:25 AM
This is only a suggestion.

If u feel that your enemy is gaining on u. He turns better and is faster.
My guess is that when this happens U are already on low altitude and u have lost most of Ur speed in evasion maneuvers.

In Evasion Against a better turning enemy it is often best to try doing S-turns instead of turns in one direction. If u dont see any friendlies nearby try continuing the s-turns but not to hard, instead go below the horison in one direction and above to the other. This way u also get a vertical movement wich makes it harder to hit and target u and u will also be able to keep your speed up a bit better in s-turning.
( they dont have to be sharp turns )



This is a very unfavorable situation to be in, but depending on what plane u and your enemy fly, all is not lost.

Many times I have been able to evade an enemy until help arrives.

Another move (depending on ac) is also occasionally to push the stick diagonally forward or when in a turn push forward and then pull again. the result is that u do both horisontal and vertical moves, and even if they are not hard it can be enough for the enemy to miss. By just going in one direction in a turn makes u a very stable and predictable target.


Ofcourse there is an agressive alternative that can turn the battle. In some situations it is possible to force an enemy into a scissoring fight, but it demands high skill of the pilot u have to be able to fly to the limit.

It is totally useless to explain in only words u have to see it.

Im about to post a series of tactical suggestions with online tracks and explanations.
But at the moment the tracks doesnt work well(latest patch issue) but as soon as they are fixed I'll post the next part. in these post u can see similar situations and get suggestions on how to deal with them.


hope this was some help too U

[This message was edited by ob_swe on Fri January 23 2004 at 08:48 AM.]

Aimosika
01-23-2004, 11:02 AM
In my opinion, if you have to do some evasive actions, a lot of things have already gone wrong... Burning all E allmost certainly kills you.

Here is lectures from Hasse Winds, number one Brewster ace in the world, second highest scoring Finnish pilot

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-CaptainWindsAirCombatTacticsLecture.html

crogall
01-23-2004, 11:27 AM
thanks for your help guys, but regarding one message above i wish to ask you what exactly is a s turn.

Stalker58
01-23-2004, 11:29 AM
Aimosika, good reading and is nice that we can use the same tactics in FB!

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!

Aimosika
01-23-2004, 01:13 PM
Well S-turn in rapid ways is an combat maneuver(Scissors) where your burn your E (speed) so fast that your 6 attack will fly ahead of you 'cos he has greater speed... Difficult to explain but look at this:

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_054a.html


Also if anyone interested about Fighter Tactics:
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/

Aimosika
01-23-2004, 01:26 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aimosika:
Well S-turn in rapid ways is an combat maneuver(Scissors) where your burn your E (speed) so fast that your 6 attack will fly ahead of you 'cos he has greater speed... Difficult to explain but look at this:

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_054a.html


Also if anyone interested about Fighter Tactics:
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/

Also from those pages:
Ilmari Juutilainen - Finland's Ace of Aces
Interview by Jon Guttman, Military History
In two wars, Ilmari Juutilainen and his fellow pilots helped preserve their country's independence and taught the Soviet Union a lesson: "If you threaten Finns, they do not become frightened--they become angry. And they never surrender."

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/finace01.htm

(In this part there is some good explanations how to shoot russian plane down or how it did actually happen..)

tttiger
01-23-2004, 01:46 PM
A Defensive S-Turn is NOT the same as scissors and I can't believe how many posters in these threads don't know that.

A defensive S turn is a maneuver designed to force an overshoot. I thkink that's what you're asking about.

Scissors (flat or rolling) is what both planes do AFTER an overshoot to try to regain an advantage.

Flat scissors favors the more agile plane (T&B planes) at low speeds. Rolling scissors favors the plane that is faster but less agile (B&Z planes) (This why the roll rate on B&Z planes is so critical and why the P-47 was hopeless until they improved its roll rate -- but still not enough).

I agree with Badsight (hate it when that happens http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif): When I started learning this sim I spent most of my time in QMB in the planes I was going to fly versus different enemy planes one-on-one. Set the AI to Average for starters, then move it up to Veteran as you get better. The AI at Veteran setting generally use the actual doctrinal tactics for each plane. Switch sidfes and watch what the AI does with your plane of choice; it's usualy the best way to fly it yourself. Don't use Ace because no one can fly shoot that well. All you'll do is get frustrated.

Even after you've been flying for awhile, stop in at QMB regularly for one-on-one practice. It really sharpens your skills.

Also, do some homework.

"THE BIBLE" is FIGHTER COMBAT Tactics and Maneuvers by Robert L. Shaw, available at Amazon,.com or lots of other places. Pricey and a bit technical, but excellent.

Less pricey but with lots of good stuff: There are lots of great web sites on fighter tactics. The best set of links to them is on Tailspin's page (bless, you Tailspin http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif):

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Tailspin/index.htm

Read and re-read, practice and then practice some more.

Aloha,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

F19_Ob
01-23-2004, 05:49 PM
Hi there !

What "I" ment with s-turns was that instead of going in the same direction in the turn with the enemy hanging after,
U alter the direction constantly left and right = s-turns
These dont have to be hard turns but a suggestion is to also go up just above the horison in one direction and descend a little in the other, since this makes it a bit more difficult to hit U.


The point with this s-turn is that u actually can keep your speed up against a better turning ac, and that would be close to impossible if only going in the same direction with the better turner.

this s-turn also can be combined with short dives to get more speed and u can fly level a few seconds and then push the stick diagonally forward then left turn-roll - right- dive- level-diagonally down- roll. this way it becomes much more difficult to hit U than if u make a clean level turn. ( be unpredictable)

This dont make u immune to hits but its much better than just turn.

If u use this teqnique online, remeber to make a quick recording ( a track) and review it later.
look from the enemy outside view and see how u move. Compare this with doing normal turns. remember that u can cycle through all the other players to see how they do it. ( very informative).

practice on it for a while before u go into combat.



-----------------------------------------------



There is also a basic vertical maneuver called the "split S" but thats a totally different thing.


Someone also refered to another tactic called the "scissors" or scissoring fight. This is an agressive tactic to fight a better turning enemy and sometimes u can force an enemy into scissoring. but u have to be quite skilled to pull it off.

in this tactic both ac is turning in s-turns against eachother trying to get head on passes and snapshots .
its actually very difficult to describe well in text but most sites with basic fighting maneuvers and tactics have pictures describing this.



Later when the track bug is fixed I will post articles and onlinetracs showing all these tactics and it will become much easier to understand.

F19_Ob
01-23-2004, 05:58 PM
tttiger has pointed out a thing i missed.

that a "hard" s-turn can be very effective when u try to get an enemy to overshoot = fly past u .

Thnx tttiger



I must dissagree a little with that scissoring, even if the better turner tries to do it flat, is in favor "only" for the better turner.

Most turnfighters are good or better in turning hard turns and most maneuvers in slow speeds, for example in scissoring than most BnZ like the fw190. But the great rolling speed of fw190 enables it to alter direction faster than many turnfighters wich means the fight can go either way. and a fw can also sometimes disengage a little easier bcause of its roll rate.

another example is bf109 vs p39 . the p39 turns better than the 109 , but due to its unpleasent stall and spinn characteristics it is very difficult to alter direction in slow speeds without flipping over. so in the p39 its wiser to turn in one direction. the 109 on the other hand actually have a good turn but for very limited time. since it also have pleasent stall, altering direction works quite well so it actually does well in a scissor against the p39.
In my opinion the bf 109 and p39 are the most equal ac in fb bcause of their disadvantages.

So scissoring good or bad depends alot on wich ac is involved.

and in all cases the BnZ ac should choose scissoring before turning in one direction, even if the Bnz cant win it buys U time.

just some thoughts.

[This message was edited by ob_swe on Fri January 23 2004 at 05:30 PM.]

tttiger
01-23-2004, 06:02 PM
LOL, my favorite defensive tactic when I find myself with a bad guy on my 6 is to go as fast I can, spiral dives, jinking as much as I can, anything to spoil his target solution and wait til he runs out of bullets, especially cannon.

Then I turn my very rugged Jug around and try to kill him. Most often, I do.

Most of us (including me and any AI below Ace level) are lousy shots and it really doesn't take long before it's all gone.

Unless you are in a very agile plane like a Yak or a Brewster, don't try to force an overshoot with S-turns. I had a Zero behind my P-40 today and tried S-turns just to see what would happen. I died. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

GoodKn1ght
01-23-2004, 06:04 PM
i wish someone would post a track of "rolling scissors" i still dont get it. im only good at shooting im not very good at flying.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

F19_Ob
01-23-2004, 06:43 PM
well it will be hard to find a long rolling scissor.it usually ends quiqkly unless they are equal in turnperformance.

but it would be interresting to see one.

Aimosika
01-24-2004, 02:26 AM
You're right ttiger, my mistake. About Robert Shaw, here is link to his article about winter war if you are interested: http://www.sci.fi/~fta/winter-w.htm

zugfuhrer
01-24-2004, 04:35 AM
Fly a late WW2 russian plane and you are the one with a faster plane wich can take more damgage, have better guns and turns better and climbes equal under 5000 m.

crogall
01-24-2004, 06:45 AM
tiger, can you explain a bit better which kind of defensive movement are you referring to? You hinted at forcing an overshooting, but how, with a very close and slow turn?