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pRaX85
06-16-2015, 12:33 AM
Please don't add ranged combat to this... for once.

Exicutionz
06-16-2015, 12:38 AM
Please don't add ranged combat to this... for once.

Im sure they will... If you watched the after show they said that you will have several different classes for each faction.

EmperorxZurg
06-16-2015, 12:42 AM
the samurai was featured in a gameplay trailer on the sight and it looked he had some throwing knives as a secondary. With something like this, I can accept it as long as its more to interrupt an enemy attack or finish someone off. But I'd be heartbroken if they made a class dedicated to ranged combat in a game so skewed to melee.

Yggdrasil_67
06-16-2015, 04:33 AM
Agreed. This looks like one of the best if not the best melee combat focused game I've seen yet. An archer player would just always take avcantage of his range and fire at people having a duel I bet. People will come back here complaining about the balancing and such.

Like I said, For Honor strikes me as an amazing sword fighting/melee combat game. Maybe have archer units but not archer player characters please.

WindyWindmill
06-16-2015, 10:53 AM
Maybe as a secondary, like someone said, throwing knives for Samurai's, maybe throwing axes for Vikings, javelins for Knights?

Sauroctone
06-16-2015, 02:36 PM
The secondary seems like a good idea, being some kind of attack interruption. Otherwise, if they reallly put playable archers in the game, there should be different ways to counter them - parrying arrows, dodging, and a realistic rate of fire from the archer for example. But yeah, overall it seems like having a full archer playable class would be terrible to handle in terms of balance.

dremlOnd
06-16-2015, 04:11 PM
Maybe have archer units but not archer player characters please.

Gotta agree, this sounds like the best way to do it, combined with possible secondary throwable items such as throwing axes/knives :rolleyes:

TheLight-Boogey
06-16-2015, 06:18 PM
I totally agree.

Range combat will totally disrupt the overall melee-centric gameplay. They already showed two instances of range combat, but both looked like clever mechanics that weren't too unblanced.

1.) The arrow storm "feat"
- This looks basically like the For Honor version of killstreaks which I think looks awesome

2.) The "assassin" class throwing projectiles.
-The assassin Samurai class was able to throw some sort of projectile at a Knight. This makes sense for a class specific trait so long as it does not overly detract from the melee combat system.


There should not be a Range class at all. What makes this game stand out to me is that it is a melee focused multiplayer game with the 3 most bad-*** type of Warriors in history.

MisterWillow
06-16-2015, 07:46 PM
Maybe have archer units but not archer player characters please.

Seems like the best idea.

Bernard_Mars
06-16-2015, 10:11 PM
I think the range npcs are needed or a range class. But the arrows, javalins or throwing knives shoud act as in real life. Hard to aim, not good on close quaters and irrelevant in some cases do to armor o shields. I think that without range characters the game will lose some immersion and difficulty inn the fights or large encounters. :nonchalance:

Kimarous
06-17-2015, 12:06 AM
The inclusion of ranged attacks worsens the melee experience. An occasional feat where one player summons a small volley to soften the opponent up is one thing, but giving players the ability to attack with ranged weapons themselves... well, three things:

1) It lacks honor, and in a game called "For Honor", that's a big no-no.
2) It's super anti-climactic to be running around the battlefield, only to abruptly fall to a surprise arrow in the face.
3) "We were fighting like men! We were locked in honorable combat and you came in and ****ed it all up!" (http://angryjoeshow.com/2010/08/the-dd-freakout/)

Oakmantle
06-17-2015, 01:27 AM
Upon first thought, Archery in this game does not seem like it would add anything special to the experience. With such a robust and visceral melee system in place, it's still hard for me to imagine anything more than aim/release archery play, which really isn't very fun for anyone. However, if the devs believe that they really want to try to add a class based on archery or ranged combat into the game, they have the right to do so, and the pre-release events to experiment with. I simply believe that these topics should be approached with level heads and an unbiased drive towards making the game better.

Also, I do not believe that the duel-sniping will cease regardless of the presence of archers in the game. And for the objective-based gametypes, I think it is good to go in with the mindset that you will not be dueling, but fighting multiple adversaries and that you should not only rely on, but also offer your support to your team. Your shield does not belong to yourself, but to the man standing on your left. Just some food for thought before we see the in-game chats ignite with displeased groans at being outnumbered ^^

slicknick99
06-17-2015, 04:06 AM
If they are going the route of having each faction have a secondary ranged weapon are they going to implement a way to parry the projectile? it would be badass to be a samurai dodging/blocking a throwing axe or javelin.

Jabberwockxeno
06-17-2015, 11:18 PM
I don't think there's a problem with ranged combat so long as it's implemented well.

I don't think a dedicated range only class would be a good idea, but most classes having a ranged tool to use and maybe a class that has more of a focus on ranged tools then others, but not 100% dedicated to ranged combat.

ElctrcAntartica
06-18-2015, 01:39 AM
You can deflect or cut arrows in flight it is totally possible. Also most archers were armed with short swords or arming swords and could only get off two or three volleys before having to retreat. So it might would be okay, but don't give the ridiculous draw time like what they do in other games.

Here is a possibility I just thought off. Say they do have an archer class, they can make it so the character draws, then has starts to align the shot, with bad accuracy and they have to hold their aim for a bit as it gets more accurate and then they get tired and it starts to get less accurate in an exponential so they have only say a second or less for their most and powerful accurate shot otherwise they arrow has say a spread of a foot at 30 ft after .75 seconds after peak accuracy making it really easy to miss their target, not to mention a deflection or cut of the arrow they fired at a moving target. So to reach maximum power takes say a second and a half to get that pinpoint aim and then they have half a second (can be extended at higher levels maybe to a max of a second) to fire before losing accuracy and power. They need to make archery really really really hard to be a good archer like a boss battle in Dark Souls/Demon Souls. Also they only get 12 arrows max 18 so they can't spam all day.

Erfa100
06-18-2015, 10:30 AM
The samurai used a throwing knife.
But by the look and title of the game it seems extremely unlikely that they'll make ranged combat a key aspect of the game.
I'm fine with using a knife or something to disorient and cause a little damage, they'll probably be in very limited supply anyway and just a possible tactical weapon than anything else.
I'm more interested to find out how they use those special moves of the characters(hail of arrows); can they kill a person with full health? Because that would be more disappointing because players are likely to abuse those to gang up on the competition.

Arashitora
06-18-2015, 10:36 AM
The samurai used a throwing knife.
But by the look and title of the game it seems extremely unlikely that they'll make ranged combat a key aspect of the game.
I'm fine with using a knife or something to disorient and cause a little damage, they'll probably be in very limited supply anyway and just a possible tactical weapon than anything else.
I'm more interested to find out how they use those special moves of the characters(hail of arrows); can they kill a person with full health? Because that would be more disappointing because players are likely to abuse those to gang up on the competition.

In the video it looked like the arrow storm was more disorienting than anything else. I don't think LadyAnn or Jeff were at full health when it started, and neither of them died.

Erfa100
06-18-2015, 10:46 AM
In the video it looked like the arrow storm was more disorienting than anything else. I don't think LadyAnn or Jeff were at full health when it started, and neither of them died.

That's a relief, this is the game I'm looking forward to most in E3, it's the war game we all wanted :P

Makeshyft_Man
06-18-2015, 11:42 AM
I think the range npcs are needed or a range class. But the arrows, javalins or throwing knives shoud act as in real life. Hard to aim, not good on close quaters and irrelevant in some cases do to armor o shields. I think that without range characters the game will lose some immersion and difficulty inn the fights or large encounters. :nonchalance:

This doesn't really fall within the design parameters laid out at E3. Big, heavy, chunky combat. I doubt we'll see a dedicated ranged class.

The_Hellbender
06-18-2015, 12:10 PM
First of all it should be a chosen perk as a 'kill-streak' (say 3 player kills and can return to the battlefield with 3 arrows and a bow or course). There could be other kill-streaks too.
But i also believe it should be used as a quick-deal-damage tactic, where it being very hard to aim and just used for dealing body shots.
On the rare occasions where a head shot occurs, it should be an instant kill, that being next to impossible to connect.
All this being said it would take away from an all close combat game and i bet my life that gamers will get way too good at shooting from the bow.

spaff_meister
06-18-2015, 02:28 PM
I have a few ideas for balancing (I have some experience with this in designing tabletop games).

I'm basing these ideas on the notion that projectiles/projectile classes are a supplementary force to the staple melee units.


Archery
. Armour and Evasion:
For purposes of realism and balance, a hardy knight's armour should deflect arrows with relative ease and minimal damage (except on critical to exposed areas), where the Samurai and Vikings receive moderate damage to most areas depending on location hit (and how complex the game's hit detection is). Though those factions with less armour should have their own counter.

Smaurai could have the ability to dodge or deflect arrows (yes, for the most expert warriors, this is possible, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzhs1Z8Rwnk)). These abilities could come as feats, in that a certain feat would give a passive percentile chance to dodge arrows, where another may provide the opportunity to press a button moments before being hit to knock the arrow aside, though the logistics of this second suggestion may be complicated.

As for Vikings, aside from passive feats as mentioned above, it may be that Vikings have to employ shields against an archer-heavy enemy. This rock-aper-scissor effect is fine. - that Vikings may be weak to archers compared to other factions.


. Ammunition and Fire Rate:
To suggest a refined number of arrows per archer would require me to know more about the game (maps, arrow damage etc.) though I would start by suggesting around 16-20, certainly not akin to an FPS where you'd be given 30, but also as low as 14 seems too few to me.

Fire Rate will affect this too. I believe the time taken to notch and draw the bow should take around 1.5-2.5 seconds. It shouldn't be as fast as we see in other titles, but not so slow as to undermine that these heroes are masters of their craft.
A longer time spent in full-draw should reduce accuracy too, and to quite a significant degree. Though the following video is a joke, it's a good example of how mainstream entertainment directors/devs often skip over the fundamentals of medieval weapon logistics - something it seems that this game has promised to implement (Art of War mechanic).
Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtoBFXSvD6Y)

. Additional Effects:
A warrior stuck with arrows might not take too much damage depending on their armour, but being hit with such a force can leave deep bruises, broken bones and concussions. Maybe, to counter the suggestion that arrows inflict lesser-moderate damage, they also induce debuffs such as reduced stamina/speed, reduced attack damage, possibly even a blurred vision amongst the edges of the screen upon taking and surviving a headshot (which could dissipate over time - like 15 seconds or so).

An arrow might also stun a warrior's charge, or provide an opening for an ally locked in combat.

tl;dr, an archer could be an interesting support class if balanced well, and mechanics invented to provide dynamic, non-lethal offensive capabilities.



Javelins
. Armour and Evasion:
I do not think the javelin has much on the arrow in terms of armour penetration, except that getting hit by a javelin will produce more force and knockback, thus disorientation and reduced speed ect.
At close range, a Javelin's stopping power will normally be around 2 times that of the average longbow. The damage dealt by these weapons should be more than the arrow by about that degree. Though if evasion is an option (passive or active), then it should be easier to evade a javelin than an arrow.

. Ammunition and Fire Rate:
Two javelins per warrior seems about fair for a maximum amount; these weapons should be used to offset/weaken an opponent, not kill them outright. It would be nice if they were retrievable though.
Depending on how the weapon is fixed (to shield, to back), the user should first sheathe their weapon, then I would suggest a draw/throw time of around 2.5 seconds.

. Additional Effects:
Similar to the bow&arrow, except to a more significant degree. Would be nice to see shield's force-dropped or rendered almost useless when stuck with javelins.

tl;dr, A stronger, slower, shorter-ranged than the bow&arrow. quite self-explanatory.

Eiddard
06-18-2015, 04:40 PM
No ranged pls, I am fine with the ranged perks such as "rain of arrows" or the "throwing knife" that we saw from the Samurai, which had a huge cooldown.

But pls, I hate when dueling someone and then an arrow appear from nowhere to end an epic duel.

TheS4dNesS
06-18-2015, 04:56 PM
Archers are part of the game. They are the snipers in shooters game. So its impossible the devs wont include them.

Eiddard
06-18-2015, 06:11 PM
Archers are part of the game. They are the snipers in shooters game. So its impossible the devs wont include them.

I dont see how you see it as impossible when the game emphazises so much the melee duels. I think the only ranged things the game should have are perks as shown in the gameplays released.

Even in the trailer they show only melee combat as main focus, the only range combat is from the Rain of Arrows that we saw as a perk in the gameplay video.

There is a lot of melee weapons to add to the game to fit everyones combat style, I dont want archers ruinning the duel experience.

Kimarous
06-18-2015, 07:19 PM
Okay, people. It looks like some ranged attacks are confirmed. Gameplay Trailer #1 @ 3:34: "Samurai Assassin" throws shuriken at knight, dealing one "blip" of damage.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgvXnDuvj-g

McEspada
06-18-2015, 09:04 PM
Please no range, maybe just a slow ability thing, but no damg pls :D
Thanks ;D Greetz from austria

King.Philip.II
06-18-2015, 10:40 PM
Range attacks are fine, as long as there are not range classes! And the reason why range attacks are fine is because it would be nice instead of chasing a person all over the map i will be able to just throw a javelin or a star and kill him.

TheS4dNesS
06-19-2015, 04:09 AM
Will this is video game, don't expect that range class will be shooting targets at far distance as we can see in real life. But yea i think its very difficult to add range classes because of the Art of Battle system.

NaturalFarmer808
06-19-2015, 11:11 AM
A Samurai always had his bow. Most of all the ancient drawings and pictures are samurais with their sword and bow. That was a big part of the Samurai. Knights had cross bows, and vikings had throwing axes pretty bad ***!

MarkLIVE333
06-19-2015, 08:57 PM
IF they do range, let's hope it's VERY skilled shot and not auto shot per say in a 'zone' when aiming. We're talking 100% accuracy, power indicator, etc.

Deadshot.
06-19-2015, 11:39 PM
I seriously doubt there will be ranged classes at all.
As mentioned already, the ranged attacks will be feats that one can accrue while battling other NPCs/players.
They won't be able to use them rapidly multiple times in a row (even if they've built up enough points), each feat has a cool-down.
It's unfortunate that the gameplay wasn't able to show an example of the Vikings (nor did the premiere trailer), but I'm sure they have a 'projectile' feat-attack as well.
Legion - hail of arrows
Chosen - shuriken
Warborn - hard to say - small throwing axe, perhaps?

LilTurel
06-20-2015, 05:57 AM
according to what all the interviews seemed to imply they designed the combat system from the ground up for melee. as people in this thread have already mentioned the shuriken only dealt one segment of damage but helped the Oni deal a 2 strike kill. i think all rage will be utility like this. the way they have been pitching this game at E3 has been as a duel based melee focused game.

TL;DR? i doubt a ranged class will be implemented and i am glad for that.

Ag-Ego
06-20-2015, 08:40 AM
i think ranged classes could work but only if you make it feel real being confident enough to walk out on the battle field with a bow and dagger takes way more courage in this games type of setting that a shield and long sword, an archer might have ranged attack capabilities but that could be balenced by a lack of options once an opponent closes in on you. there is also room as others have said for ways to counter ranged attacks. if the use of the bow was difficult, limits defensive and close-combat options, and was possible to counter then i think it could prove very interesting addition. the game may be built ground up for duels but limiting a game to one mechanic could seriously hinder the potential of the game.

LilTurel
06-20-2015, 08:59 AM
i think ranged classes could work but only if you make it feel real being confident enough to walk out on the battle field with a bow and dagger takes way more courage in this games type of setting that a shield and long sword, an archer might have ranged attack capabilities but that could be balenced by a lack of options once an opponent closes in on you. there is also room as others have said for ways to counter ranged attacks. if the use of the bow was difficult, limits defensive and close-combat options, and was possible to counter then i think it could prove very interesting addition. the game may be built ground up for duels but limiting a game to one mechanic could seriously hinder the potential of the game.
I don't agree with it limiting the game as there are ranged tools in the game to mix things up. the game is meant to be a dueling game it makes no sense for them to add dedicated ranged. A shooter like COD or counter strike has melee but its meant to be situational and that's where ranged belongs. think of it as a flip in roles. no one gets tired of a shooter for not having dedicated melee and if you are the type to get tired of melee obviously this game isn't for you.

KALUHS
06-20-2015, 09:39 AM
team damage needs to be on so players don't abuse arrow shower/ catapult.
There needs to be away to avoid/ block the shuriken

LilTurel
06-20-2015, 09:41 AM
team damage needs to be on so players don't abuse arrow shower/ catapult.
There need to be away to avoid/ block the projectile attacks.

friendly fire is already confirmed. forget witch video might be the gameplay trailer #1 or one of the interviews. you can dodge with X/A/whatever key for PC and im sure that works for shuriken.

nickzx81
06-21-2015, 11:16 AM
the question is whether this is a game system flavoured with history or a game simulating real history in which case there should be ranged weapons, friendly fire and i hope it will be the latter as the combat looks excellent i hope it wont be scaled up with too many levels and fancy gamming rubbish a short sword is a short sword and leave it at that. add a bit more realality like viking swords breaking unless you have a better quality one made from iron imported from far east . also if we have to collect stuff no bottomless bags so back to archery there should be a limit on the number of arrows carried and when used up no more bowfire till you make / buy more / resupply

Fatal-horizon
06-21-2015, 07:18 PM
Ranged would take too long to try a balance , focus more on gameplay modes , and extra features .

Add ranged character as dlc maybe in the future ? But I don't want time spent on working out , how to balance a character most don't care about right now

MisterWillow
06-21-2015, 08:23 PM
friendly fire is already confirmed. forget witch video might be the gameplay trailer #1 or one of the interviews..

Really? I hadn't noticed before (or maybe missed that interview). Interesting.

Makes sense, I guess. Prevents three people charging a single person and wailing till their dead. Good decision.

Solid_Altair
06-21-2015, 11:46 PM
The throwing knife is a Feat. It has a cooldown and must be recharged. To recharge it you gotta kill an enemy or do some other stuff. I think capturing a zone also counts. It seems balanced.

Solid_Altair
06-21-2015, 11:49 PM
Any word on whether friendly fire will apply to melee, or just special ranged attacks?

Applying it to melee would be good to nerf ganking. But there would also be the problem of noobs or trolls team killing people and generating a lot of frustration.

Warphorntek
06-29-2015, 06:07 PM
There will be definetly some kind of range combat (throw shuriken already in) but if you dont want it incluaded what about put in some filter to server option and everyone can live long and prosper

Sombra997
06-29-2015, 07:31 PM
Knights had cross bows

No they hadnt, the crossbow was forbidden for the chivalry, being an unhonorable weapon.

Dienekes12
06-30-2015, 12:20 PM
No they hadnt, the crossbow was forbidden for the chivalry, being an unhonorable weapon.

This was attempted. the art of the time suggests that this was not really followed. Hell, if you read Tolhoffer's fechtbuch there's a section on how to deal with cavalry wielding crossbows.

And that's not even getting into the period where it was considered a normal practice for knights to use guns. Ride toward the enemy lines, fire near point blank, then ride back to reload and repeat until the enemy was broken enough to successfully charge with lances.

Sombra997
06-30-2015, 03:05 PM
This was attempted. the art of the time suggests that this was not really followed. Hell, if you read Tolhoffer's fechtbuch there's a section on how to deal with cavalry wielding crossbows.

And that's not even getting into the period where it was considered a normal practice for knights to use guns. Ride toward the enemy lines, fire near point blank, then ride back to reload and repeat until the enemy was broken enough to successfully charge with lances.

You are completly right (i supose they prefered to win wars towards being honorable in that times) but you know, that was with the concept of "For Honor", like somebody said before. Knights with crossbows in a game called that, well ^^

Havemercy87
07-05-2015, 10:30 PM
I am in agreement with most everyone, ranged perks such as shurikan and arrow storm are fine and great ways to implement range offense and the only way they should be in For Honor

WYRDB0Y
07-05-2015, 11:58 PM
Any word on whether friendly fire will apply to melee, or just special ranged attacks?

Applying it to melee would be good to nerf ganking. But there would also be the problem of noobs or trolls team killing people and generating a lot of frustration.

You're spot on, melee is confirmed friendly fire AFAIK and it's to prevent spamming the attack in 1v2, 2v3 and such scenarios. I don't think it's a problem, it's more stuff to learn. Wouldn't think this kind of combat lends itself to trolling, I mean why would you tk for your own loss.

Arcamedies
07-06-2015, 06:28 AM
You're spot on, melee is confirmed friendly fire AFAIK and it's to prevent spamming the attack in 1v2, 2v3 and such scenarios. I don't think it's a problem, it's more stuff to learn. Wouldn't think this kind of combat lends itself to trolling, I mean why would you tk for your own loss.

Because trolls like to TK...

WYRDB0Y
07-06-2015, 11:04 PM
https://youtu.be/H52rACMIi5Q?t=6m36s

You can see melee friendly fire in action here, the knight on the right strikes and makes the other stumble plus you see some red flashes on the screen.

Weiss_M
07-19-2015, 04:15 AM
I love long ranged combat. I mainly choose archers and snipers everywhere I can, so I apologize for ruining your honorful duels.

I was willing to buy and play the melee-only game I think For Honor is going to be, but hearing you guys, with all that hate for ranged combat and archers, I hope they do include archery.

I wish I could be an archer and troll you all, but being fair, developers should include real war archery, not be the archers we're used to see in other games and movies (and obviously not like Lars Andersen), with bows with draw weights between 120 and 150 pounds, arrows flying at no more than 180 feet per second (if you see the archer drawing the bow, you can easily dodge it, there's no need to cut it in half) and limited arrows.

You will say: It's not balanced if I'm running against an archer and they can shoot all of their arrows before I can fight them.
As an archer, you have to grab the arrow, nock it correctly, draw the bow (remember we're talking about war bows, 120~150lbs), aim and shoot a moving target.
This could easily take about 5 seconds!

English longbowmen could shoot about 10 or 12 arrows in a minute, crossbowmen even less:
https://youtu.be/HagCuGXJgUs?t=2m22s

And for the ones who claim that one shot kills would ruin the game there you go:
https://youtu.be/CULmGfvYlso?t=1m25s
--EDIT----
I originally posted this video, but the bow has only 45lbs draw weight: https://youtu.be/qsAUKRbaZ9E?t=4m10s
This is more accurate (110lbs): https://youtu.be/KCE40J93m5c?t=39s
Anyway, full plate armour users probably wore a gambeson underneath so it doesn't matter.
-----------


And then, after a long heroic race, dodging arrows, deflecting them with your shiled or your godly-made Katana, and even surviving two or three hits, you finally get near the archer:
You already have your longsword (or spear, or one handed weapon and shield or whatever) on your hands. The archer has to drop the bow, unsheathe their arming sword (which is shorter) and they do not have a shield. You could easily defeat them and take their bow with you if you want to.
And remember: limited arrows. No more than 15~20 arrows in the quiver? Once they shoot them all, they simply become swordsman without plate armour and no shield.

Archers could be totally possible and balanced here and any other game if developers wanted to, so don't rage.

MisterWillow
07-19-2015, 07:06 AM
I love long ranged combat. I mainly choose archers and snipers everywhere I can, so I apologize for ruining your honorful duels.

The word 'honor' is literally in the title. Trying to belittle the way people are construing that into fighting honorably is a bit tactless, especially since the devs seem to want people to choose a faction based on their own battle-philosophy, and the factions are all bound by some honor-driven code (at least from a mythological point of view).


I was willing to buy and play the melee-only game I think For Honor is going to be, but hearing you guys, with all that hate for ranged combat and archers, I hope they do include archery.

I don't think anyone here hates archers or ranged combat; they just recognise the focus in this game is melee---the central mechanic revolves around weapon position as it relates to duels---and therefore think a class dedicated to ranged combat would be out of place.

Personally, I think that including an archer class would either cripple a team---because the archers would either sit in a corner sniping or getting killed once they are engaged in melee---exist merely as an annoyance---because people engaged in duels would all of a sudden die from said guy sitting in a corner---turn the game into sniping matches---because if they included an archer and it behaved in a way that makes it effective (i.e. one or two shot kills and short draw time), then people will take advantage of that to murder the enemy team from a distance, forcing that team to respond in kind, and all of a sudden, everyone's ignoring the game's aforementioned central mechanic that made the game unique, effectively rendering it Call of Duty: Medieval Warfare---or a combination of the three.


I wish I could be an archer and troll you all, but being fair, developers should include real war archery, not be the archers we're used to see in other games and movies (and obviously not like Lars Andersen), with bows with draw weights between 120 and 150 pounds, arrows flying at no more than 180 feet per second (if you see the archer drawing the bow, you can easily dodge it, there's no need to cut it in half) and limited arrows.

You will say: It's not balanced if I'm running against an archer and they can shoot all of their arrows before I can fight them.
As an archer, you have to grab the arrow, nock it correctly, draw the bow (remember we're talking about war bows, 120~150lbs), aim and shoot a moving target.
This could easily take about 5 seconds!

English longbowmen could shoot about 10 or 12 arrows in a minute, crossbowmen even less:
https://youtu.be/HagCuGXJgUs?t=2m22s[\QUOTE]

And for the ones who claim that one shot kills would ruin the game there you go:
https://youtu.be/CULmGfvYlso?t=1m25s
https://youtu.be/qsAUKRbaZ9E?t=4m10s

And then, after a long heroic race, dodging arrows, deflecting them with your shiled or your godly-made Katana, and even surviving two or three hits, you finally get near the archer:
You already have your longsword (or spear, or one handed weapon and shield or whatever) on your hands. The archer has to drop the bow, unsheathe their arming sword (which is shorter) and they do not have a shield. You could easily defeat them and take their bow with you if you want to.
And remember: limited arrows. No more than 15~20 arrows in the quiver? Once they shoot them all, they simply become swordsman without plate armour and no shield.

Archers could be totally possible and balanced here and any other game if developers wanted to, so don't rage.

So... why would anyone want to be an archer, again?

With the time it takes to actually ready your weapon, for a single shot, an enemy can easily close the 180 foot range (like seriously, watch the gameplay again, they can move really fast), and if they're aware of you, they can dodge the arrow, and even if they do hit (thanks to the two vids you linked regarding penetration), they suffer no more than a flesh wound, if that (meaning a single segment of health), so you would have to hit the same person multiple times, exhausting your proposed limited arrow supply rather quickly (20 arrows means you can wipe the enemy team alone once, since, from what we've seen, people have five segments and then abandon your bow, assuming you connect every time and they don't find you between shots), at which point, you essentially become a buffed up member of the AI mobs, since the lack of armour would have to be reflected in your stats, dropping your life segments from five to two or three.

That sounds absolutely miserable, both for the player, and the team they're on, since they'll need to spend all match away from skirmishes, meaning they would barely be helpful at capturing points, since that's where most skirmishes would occur.

Weiss_M
07-19-2015, 09:01 AM
I totally agree with you. Archers were useful in large numbers, a single archer is mostly useless. This is a melee-based game, that's why I assumed that there wouldn't be archers from the very beginning. It's only I hate whenever people start acusing long range players of ruining their game and tagging archers as dishonorable cowards (in any game, not only this one). This is war: If you don't like being killed, don't be out in the open. By the way, by no means I'm defending quickscopers.

Like you said, choosing to be an archer would be a strategic positioning in Dominion. Normally, once you've captured a position, you move on to the next one and leave that one unprotected. For example, in Dominion in CoD, I play as a quick stealthy short ranged soldier instead of a sniper, and the majority of the time I run from one point to another without encountering enemies protecting them. As an archer you could stay in that place shooting the enemies in the field and still be there to defend if they come, at the expense of having a worse defence and damage output. In team deathmatch, not so useful.

Havemercy87
07-19-2015, 10:40 AM
The word 'honor' is literally in the title. Trying to belittle the way people are construing that into fighting honorably is a bit tactless, especially since the devs seem to want people to choose a faction based on their own battle-philosophy, and the factions are all bound by some honor-driven code (at least from a mythological point of view).



I don't think anyone here hates archers or ranged combat; they just recognise the focus in this game is melee---the central mechanic revolves around weapon position as it relates to duels---and therefore think a class dedicated to ranged combat would be out of place.

Personally, I think that including an archer class would either cripple a team---because the archers would either sit in a corner sniping or getting killed once they are engaged in melee---exist merely as an annoyance---because people engaged in duels would all of a sudden die from said guy sitting in a corner---turn the game into sniping matches---because if they included an archer and it behaved in a way that makes it effective (i.e. one or two shot kills and short draw time), then people will take advantage of that to murder the enemy team from a distance, forcing that team to respond in kind, and all of a sudden, everyone's ignoring the game's aforementioned central mechanic that made the game unique, effectively rendering it Call of Duty: Medieval Warfare---or a combination of the three.



So... why would anyone want to be an archer, again?

With the time it takes to actually ready your weapon, for a single shot, an enemy can easily close the 180 foot range (like seriously, watch the gameplay again, they can move really fast), and if they're aware of you, they can dodge the arrow, and even if they do hit (thanks to the two vids you linked regarding penetration), they suffer no more than a flesh wound, if that (meaning a single segment of health), so you would have to hit the same person multiple times, exhausting your proposed limited arrow supply rather quickly (20 arrows means you can wipe the enemy team alone once, since, from what we've seen, people have five segments and then abandon your bow, assuming you connect every time and they don't find you between shots), at which point, you essentially become a buffed up member of the AI mobs, since the lack of armour would have to be reflected in your stats, dropping your life segments from five to two or three.

That sounds absolutely miserable, both for the player, and the team they're on, since they'll need to spend all match away from skirmishes, meaning they would barely be helpful at capturing points, since that's where most skirmishes would occur.
Thanks for saving me the time to write that Willow, your a pal lol

Dead1y-Derri
07-19-2015, 02:33 PM
I think if they implemented it well so it was balanced and true to the game then I don't see a problem. unfortunately like others have said this would be difficult, at least from the gameplay we've seen so far. Who knows, maybe ranged combat could happen in some way or shape.

Havemercy87
07-19-2015, 03:39 PM
Here's a possibility I could live with. They already have the oni's shurikan as a feat. It's not that far more to get a feat something like "Bow Shot" that could be used at range. A 3 sec fire time, add in a chance of missing and the extreme vulnerability of the hero using it, not to mention putting it in a 3rd or 4th slot and giving it a full 60sec CD. Sounds pretty fair and balanced to me.

Edit: Yes, to balance the "Bow Shot" it would need to deal considerable damage.. Maybe 3 bars when hitting a samurai, fully upgraded of course(if they have feat upgrades)
Edit: imo CD increase to 90sec

Weiss_M
07-19-2015, 03:43 PM
I think if they implemented it well so it was balanced and true to the game then I don't see a problem. unfortunately like others have said this would be difficult, at least from the gameplay we've seen so far. Who knows, maybe ranged combat could happen in some way or shape.


That's why I propose, in case they include it (which I doubt), to make it far from overpowered. Like the Oni (high damage, low defence, short ranged attack), archers (or crossbowmen) should be somewhat frail units (low melee damage, low defence, long ranged attack), so only people who truly like archery would be interested in choosing them.

And yes, it could be a feat, but firing only an arrow? Maybe 5, or maybe a 2nd slot feat like the shuriken. I'm talking about a low-damage low-defence hero specialized in ranged combat.
And for the damage, it would depend on your target's defence, of course, but I think between 1 and 2 bars would be OK.

EDIT: I've been thinking about the Bow feat Havemercy87 said, and I'm really liking the idea. Way more than having an archer who can switch between sword and bow, as For Honor is a melee centered game. Shuriken reminds me of the throwing knife in Assassin's Creed online mode, so the bow could be like the hidden gun, a slow longer ranged attack, only it should be aimed manually.

MisterWillow
07-19-2015, 11:26 PM
Thanks for saving me the time to write that Willow, your a pal lol

No problem :D


Here's a possibility I could live with. They already have the oni's shurikan as a feat. It's not that far more to get a feat something like "Bow Shot" that could be used at range. A 3 sec fire time, add in a chance of missing and the extreme vulnerability of the hero using it, not to mention putting it in a 3rd or 4th slot and giving it a full 60sec CD. Sounds pretty fair and balanced to me.

Edit: Yes, to balance the "Bow Shot" it would need to deal considerable damage.. Maybe 3 bars when hitting a samurai, fully upgraded of course(if they have feat upgrades)
Edit: imo CD increase to 90sec

I don't think it was in this thread, but I've mentioned something like this somewhere. People seem fine with ranged feats, since they can't be spammed. My suggestion was for the knights to have a crossbow, a single, quick shot, to give an analogue to the shuriken. But i've also mentioned that I like the idea of different classes having different feats (something I think the devs are doing anyway), so it wouldn't be unreasonable to have a class to have a single-use bow feat that would require aiming.

Havemercy87
07-20-2015, 01:38 AM
I've read that, can't remember what thread now lol, anyway that's where I got the idea to begin with. Would probably be a crossbow for knights, a longbow for samurai, and a recurve(just for variation, I believe vikings used the longbows) for the vikings.

Yes I was thinking of a manual aim when I wrote it, but that would cause a sight system/animation to take over, obscuring vision, etc.. Wasn't to sure about that myself. Thought more about picking a target from a distance and letting the system work the numbers game on hit/miss/friendly fire(if there happen to be a friendly in combat with said target. Also, a manual aim would open that vulnerability window more than a few seconds while you lined up your shot... I'm not against it though, just considering the variables..

Weiss_M
07-20-2015, 02:04 AM
Knights having crossbows sounds fitting, but crossbows had way less range than bows. If there was a long range Knight Hero, it should have an English longbow.
Viking also had longbows, like the English ones.
And for the Samurai, they should have a Daikyu, or "large bow", the asymetrical Japanese longbow.
LINK: (SPOILER ALERT: Male nipple XD) http://sinwakai.up.n.seesaa.net/sinwakai/asida/P2040066.JPG?d=a0

Havemercy87
07-20-2015, 02:14 AM
I agree with the historicals on it. But I'm not trying to be all accurate as the game isn't exactly accurate and provide some variety in there.

MisterWillow
07-20-2015, 08:19 PM
I've read that, can't remember what thread now lol, anyway that's where I got the idea to begin with. Would probably be a crossbow for knights, a longbow for samurai, and a recurve(just for variation, I believe vikings used the longbows) for the vikings.

Yes I was thinking of a manual aim when I wrote it, but that would cause a sight system/animation to take over, obscuring vision, etc.. Wasn't to sure about that myself. Thought more about picking a target from a distance and letting the system work the numbers game on hit/miss/friendly fire(if there happen to be a friendly in combat with said target. Also, a manual aim would open that vulnerability window more than a few seconds while you lined up your shot... I'm not against it though, just considering the variables..

Oh. I was think you meant that once you activate your feat, the camera zooms to an over-the-shoulder view and a reticle appears for aiming. A Resident Evil 4 sort of set-up. Something like that could be useful for certain situations, like, you see a teammate engaged in a duel, you can tell they're about to loose, but you can't get there in time, so you activate your feat, draw, fire, take out the opponent, and then continue your advance to give some added support.

Or you see a teammate engaged in a duel, but notice a second opponent approaching them from the rear with, again, no way for you to reach them in time to help out, so you activate the feat, draw, fire, and if you don't kill the second opponent (since they might be injured already), you at least wound them enough to slow them, and require them only to be melee'd once.

That's all assuming you hit, of course. And since you would only have one shot, you'd have to make it count. On think this over, two shots would be acceptable, provided you had to use both arrows before you could melee again, so it would leave you completely vulnerable, so, in the situations noted above, you would be able to kill an opponent with full health (if we're going by your three bars of life suggestion), and therefore save said teammate.

Also, the shuriken was the second feat the samurai got; maybe, since this is a bit more powerful, in terms of application and damage, it should be the third.


Knights having crossbows sounds fitting, but crossbows had way less range than bows. If there was a long range Knight Hero, it should have an English longbow.
Viking also had longbows, like the English ones.
And for the Samurai, they should have a Daikyu, or "large bow", the asymetrical Japanese longbow.
LINK: (SPOILER ALERT: Male nipple XD) http://sinwakai.up.n.seesaa.net/sinwakai/asida/P2040066.JPG?d=a0

They don't need to have incredible range for the application I'm talking about. To use another Ubisoft property, Ezio's one-handed crossbow---when you gain the feat, you have one shot, a real quick, point-and-shoot sort of thing---or think of the initial trailer of Assassin's Creed 1, where Altair is approaching the stage, and to kill a guard quickly, he pulls the crossbow and fires, but then forgets about it (he even discards it, taking out another guard). That would be more suitable for this sort of game, where ranged combat is not the focus, and it would be very analogous to the shuriken we saw; a quick flash to catch your opponent off-guard, and do a bit of damage.

Weiss_M
07-20-2015, 11:22 PM
I think they're using the same engine (or a variation) they use in Assassin's Creed games. Whenever I see the Knights, they strongly remind me of Templars from AC I (I freaking love that game). Whether it is the Ezio's crossbow or Connor's bow, every ranged weapon in the series has been aimed in a third person view.
In fact, if you look closely to any of the gameplays (or maybe only the one in which the HUD in ON, the one in which two developers comment the gameplay), you can see a dot or an upside down triangle in the middle of the screen. That may be to aim and lock distant enemies, who knows.


When I started writing in this thread I was thinking of having a bow as a secondary weapon, thus having more arrows, but now that I'm more into that being a feat I think a single arrow per... activation?... would be just fine. But 1 shot kill? That would cause way too much hate. No more than 2 segments. 3 or maybe 4 in the head if they were to include headshots which I doubt (they should, because the helmet were less protective than the rest of the armor: There's lots of skeletons from middle ages with wounds in the skull).
About the bow feat being a third feat... Well, it would be more powerful than the shuriken, but also more risky, so I'm more into that being a second slot feat. The crossbow, on the other hand, in case of being a quick shot like the shuriken, it definitely should be a 3rd slot feat, because crossbows bolts had more penetration than the arrows and would do more damage than the shuriken.

Havemercy87
07-21-2015, 12:10 AM
I'm not against a manual aim, I think it's do-able. I guess you would have some hint if someone was coming up, the position tags on hud. Also an over-the-shoulder aim is better than the fps I had thought into it. Good idea right therr..

The 3 bars of damage would be a full upgraded feat, imo. How many levels of upgrade is anyone's guess, I'm leaving that to the devs. I'm not against the 2 arrows per feat, but think on this.

1 shot per feat, but you can apply it to 2 feat slots. One possibility is that a level 1 or 2 "Bow Shot" can be applied to slots 1 or 2, any higher and they have to be applied to 3-4. Allowing you to apply it too slot 2 and 3, one to hammer and one to finish him/her. That's suggesting that some feats get locked in a higher slot after a certain level and they can be used multiple times. Another possibility is that some feats are locked at any level to slots 3-4 and you can use them in multiple slots.

If multiple slot uses isn't in the plan I have another possibility. You have a limited time of use with the bow, say 20secs to get off as many shots as possible. With this idea, I'd like to up the cd to 2min, starting after your 20secs.

One more and I'm done.. This is following my 2nd possibility with the time limit. I'm not a fan of this one, just throwing it out there. The longer you hold a shot the more powerful it is. An upgrade to the feat would increase your "Bow time" and your cd. A full upgrade would give you 20secs with a 2min cd... Ok that's all I got for now

Edit: Personally, I'd like to see a throwing knife as the knights equivalent to the shurikan, same with the Vikings.

Even if it was a 3rd slot feat, it seams fairly quick getting to the 3rd feat.

Weiss_M
07-21-2015, 01:06 AM
Well, we do not even know if feats can be upgraded. Or maybe I have missed some info about them. But well, assuming perks in Assassin's Creed can be upgraded, we can expect it.

I've just timed the cooldown of the shuriken feat: 25 seconds. Maybe the bow should have between 50 and 75 seconds? (in the case of shooting only one arrow)
Imagine you use the Bow feat and an enemy is closer than you expected, or he surprises you. You didn't manage shoot the arrow before you switched to your sword, but the cooldown still counts down.

In the case of multiple arrows yes, it should have a longer cooldown and a higher score requirement (probably like the Arrow storm), but I don't like the idea of having to shoot them in a limited amount of time.
This leads me to two scenarios:
-Having to shoot them all (between 6 and 10) and losing the arrows we didn't fire before we switch to the sword, making the cooldown start the moment we grab the sword again.
-Having from 3 to 6 arrows to shoot and the ability to switch weapons whenever we want before the cooldown starts (and having a really longer cooldown). In that case, we end up with the idea of having a secondary weapon again. (But I like this one more)

About having to draw the bow to maximum length (I don't know if I said it right...) in order to gain full power it's kind of obvious, as it is like this in real life (and videogames).

Note that my suggestions ignore the fact the we may be able upgrade our feats. In that case, we could change the damage or range (in the form of different arrowheads), more arrows (longer quiver), whatever.


EDIT: We do not even know how feats are unlocked. Look at the lower right corner of the screen, above the feat slots:
LINK: https://youtu.be/sp3NKQlJPuo?t=1m45s
It seems a log/record/table (no idea of its name) of the progress of the player(s).

Havemercy87
07-21-2015, 01:13 AM
I believe I heard JV say offhanded like in one of the interviews that feats would upgrade, but I could be mistaken and I can't remember which one it was.. I'll look into it here shortly. Gotta get kids around for bed.

Havemercy87
07-21-2015, 02:31 AM
Yeah it looks like a log of some kind, like a notification.. We know the feat slots are unlocked with kills and capture points, but how the feats themselves are unlocked, your right we don't.. Its all hypothesis right now unfortunately

MisterWillow
07-21-2015, 05:06 AM
When I started writing in this thread I was thinking of having a bow as a secondary weapon, thus having more arrows, but now that I'm more into that being a feat I think a single arrow per... activation?... would be just fine. But 1 shot kill? That would cause way too much hate. No more than 2 segments. 3 or maybe 4 in the head if they were to include headshots which I doubt (they should, because the helmet were less protective than the rest of the armor: There's lots of skeletons from middle ages with wounds in the skull).
About the bow feat being a third feat... Well, it would be more powerful than the shuriken, but also more risky, so I'm more into that being a second slot feat. The crossbow, on the other hand, in case of being a quick shot like the shuriken, it definitely should be a 3rd slot feat, because crossbows bolts had more penetration than the arrows and would do more damage than the shuriken.

Did I imply 1 shot kills? I didn't mean to if I did. I was going by Havemercy's three-segment damage suggestion, so you would need two shots, unless the person was already wounded. Don't know if headshots would be taken into consideration. I would be fine with it either way.

I understand your point about longbow damage vs crossbow damage vs shuriken damage; although, it would depend on how much damage the different feats do. The shuriken, from what we know, does one segment of life worth of damage. Assuming both longbow and crossbow feats are present, the crossbow would be the most powerful, dealing three segments of life worth, and the longbow would be somewhere in between, at two segments, so it could go either way. But, if the longbow has an aiming mechanic, such as the one described before, it would theoretically be more accurate, and could potentially have a greater range than the others, so I still think it should be a third slot feat.


I'm not against a manual aim, I think it's do-able. I guess you would have some hint if someone was coming up, the position tags on hud. Also an over-the-shoulder aim is better than the fps I had thought into it. Good idea right therr..

The 3 bars of damage would be a full upgraded feat, imo. How many levels of upgrade is anyone's guess, I'm leaving that to the devs. I'm not against the 2 arrows per feat, but think on this.

1 shot per feat, but you can apply it to 2 feat slots. One possibility is that a level 1 or 2 "Bow Shot" can be applied to slots 1 or 2, any higher and they have to be applied to 3-4. Allowing you to apply it too slot 2 and 3, one to hammer and one to finish him/her. That's suggesting that some feats get locked in a higher slot after a certain level and they can be used multiple times. Another possibility is that some feats are locked at any level to slots 3-4 and you can use them in multiple slots.

I thought that each Hero/class had a specific pre-defined set of feats, so that your choice of Hero/class would not only be tied to their weapon, but also their feats. If they're as defined as people seem to think they are, it would make sense that each would have a specific set of skills.


If multiple slot uses isn't in the plan I have another possibility. You have a limited time of use with the bow, say 20secs to get off as many shots as possible. With this idea, I'd like to up the cd to 2min, starting after your 20secs.

Honestly not a fan of this. It could easily lead to people wiping a team fairly easily. Better it be a one-shot affair.


The longer you hold a shot the more powerful it is

That could be interesting, though, could be seen draw distance. So, when you activate the feat and pull out the bow, the moment you push the 'draw' button, it starts at quarter-draw, and if just pulled and released, it would deal a single segment of life, but if you hold 'draw', you increase to half-draw, which would do two segments, and finally to full-draw, which would do three segments. For balance, they would have to make the draw time at least four or five seconds for a full-draw, and maybe slow your movement, or root you to the spot for the duration.

The sort of variation something like that could provide would make for some real clench moments.


Edit: Personally, I'd like to see a throwing knife as the knights equivalent to the shurikan, same with the Vikings.

Meh. I don't associate throwing knives with knights, for some reason. I think the crossbow fits more thematically. Of course, I associate throwing axes more with vikings than knives as well. Maybe if the shield-bearing classes had knives, since it would seem burdensome to carry a main weapon, shield, and a larger ranged weapon all at once (and again, that's assuming each Hero/class has indivdualised feats).


Even if it was a 3rd slot feat, it seams fairly quick getting to the 3rd feat.

Maybe, but then it's one shot and then it's either done, or you have to wait for a cooldown.


've just timed the cooldown of the shuriken feat: 25 seconds. Maybe the bow should have between 50 and 75 seconds? (in the case of shooting only one arrow)
Imagine you use the Bow feat and an enemy is closer than you expected, or he surprises you. You didn't manage shoot the arrow before you switched to your sword, but the cooldown still counts down.

Something like that sounds about right.

Maybe have it to where you don't switch until you use the bow, so you have to fire the arrow before engaging in melee again, or if you get melee'd while the feat is active, you drop the bow. Either way, the cooldown would apply.


EDIT: We do not even know how feats are unlocked. Look at the lower right corner of the screen, above the feat slots:
LINK: https://youtu.be/sp3NKQlJPuo?t=1m45s
It seems a log/record/table (no idea of its name) of the progress of the player(s).

Isn't that just a representation of a D-Pad, showing which button the player needs to push to activate the feat?

http://static9.cdn.ubi.com/resource/en-US/game/forhonor/game/aob_controller_image_article_208796.jpg

So, in the case of the samurai later in the video:

http://i59.tinypic.com/ogvpyq.jpg

first slot = got a kill/captured a point (which seems to be the standard, since the knight has that as well, meaning, to me, that each class would really only have three real feats, the first 'slot' just being a sort of buffer (for lack of a better word).

second slot (left on the D-Pad) = shuriken

third slot (right on the D-Pad) = no idea; symbol indicates three uses of some sort of a poison skill (maybe apply poison to your weapon?)

fourth slot (down on the D-Pad) = arrow storm

Weiss_M
07-21-2015, 07:20 PM
But, if the longbow has an aiming mechanic, such as the one described before, it would theoretically be more accurate, and could potentially have a greater range than the others, so I still think it should be a third slot feat.
Remember the drawbacks: longer preparation time, higher probability of failure and less damage than the crossbow. I'd prefer it in a second slot. But well, we will see, there's no need to focus in this topic.


So, when you activate the feat and pull out the bow, the moment you push the 'draw' button, it starts at quarter-draw, and if just pulled and released, it would deal a single segment of life, but if you hold 'draw', you increase to half-draw, which would do two segments, and finally to full-draw, which would do three segments. For balance, they would have to make the draw time at least four or five seconds for a full-draw, and maybe slow your movement, or root you to the spot for the duration.
I don't like this. In order to use a war bow, you have to full-draw it, otherwise it's not sufficiently powerful to do some damage to the enemy. Or you do a full-length draw, or you fail. I love being an archer, but this is how it goes, specially in a game like this.
Did you see this two videos?
LINK: https://youtu.be/CULmGfvYlso?t=1m25s
--EDIT------
I originally posted this video, LINK: https://youtu.be/qsAUKRbaZ9E?t=4m10s, but I didn't quite liked it because the bow they use has a smaller draw weight. This is about 110lbs: LINK: https://youtu.be/KCE40J93m5c?t=39s
-------------
It takes ~5 seconds from the moment you grab the arrow and you fire it. No problem with that.
LINK: https://youtu.be/HagCuGXJgUs?t=2m22s



Isn't that just a representation of a D-Pad, showing which button the player needs to push to activate the feat?
No, not that. Look again, above de D-Pad symbols.
LINK: https://youtu.be/sp3NKQlJPuo?t=1m45s

It says:
"Kill (Alaliberte) +7 points
Feat Level 1!"
and then...
"Captured a zone
Feat Level 2!" (which gives you 150 points)

It seems that Dominion mode encourages to capture and defend bases, not killing, at least in the defending team.
When LadyAnn falls and dies this message doesn't appear. It must count as a suicide.

Maybe there's no score requirement to unlock feats, and it's just a pointstreak like in the Call of Duty series. But this discussion would fit another thread better.

MisterWillow
07-21-2015, 08:12 PM
Remember the drawbacks: longer preparation time, higher probability of failure and less damage than the crossbow. I'd prefer it in a second slot. But well, we will see, there's no need to focus in this topic.

Potentially, but it has a much greater range and tactical application. I think I'd be fine with it being in either.

You're right, though. We'll just have to wait.


I don't like this. In order to fire use a war bow, you have to full-draw it, otherwise it's not sufficiently powerful to do some damage to the enemy. Or you do a full-length draw, or you fail. I love being an archer, but this is how it goes, specially in a game like this.
Did you see this two videos?
LINK: https://youtu.be/CULmGfvYlso?t=1m25s
LINK: https://youtu.be/qsAUKRbaZ9E?t=4m10s

It takes ~5 seconds from the moment you grab the arrow and you fire it. No problem with that.
LINK: https://youtu.be/HagCuGXJgUs?t=2m22s

Realism doesn't have to be followed where it isn't needed in order to balance a gameplay mechanic, which is all I'm describing.

I was thinking of the bow in the last Tomb Raider. You could barely tap the fire button, she would quarter-draw and release---no hope of killing anything (unless it was a headshot, I think), and it had weak range, but it could be used to stagger an enemy so you could get away, or you if you had a supply of arrows, you could pump arrows into a guy as you approach him for a melee kill---all the way up to full-draw---which had much better range, stopping power, etc. etc. The draw time in that was a couple seconds, which I think would be too quick for its application here, hence the suggestion that it be four or five seconds.

A system like that could lead to a variety of applications. It could function like the shuriken, a quick strike to wound an approaching enemy, all the way up to a long-range support feat. A single shot could help tremendously if a teammate is outnumbered, and one of them is already injured.


No, not that. Look again, above de D-Pad symbols.
LINK: https://youtu.be/sp3NKQlJPuo?t=1m45s

It says:
"Kill (Alaliberte) +7 points
Feat Level 1!"
and then...
"Captured a zone
Feat Level 2!" (which gives you 150 points)

It seems that Dominion mode encourages to capture and defend bases, not killing, at least in the defending team.
When LadyAnn falls and dies this message doesn't appear. It must count as a suicide.

I see it now. *blind, apparently*

I think its just their naming convention for the different slots---Feat Level 1 - killed a dude; Feat level 2 - shuriken, etc. etc.---so your feats don't level up, but your Hero/class has four (technically three) feats assigned to them, and the 'level' indicates their power or usefulness, and therefore how many kills/objectives completed you need to use them. Arrow Storm being a Level 4 feat fits that sort of design choice, since it is both extremely powerful and pretty useful.

Havemercy87
07-21-2015, 09:15 PM
Don't know if headshots would be taken into consideration. I would be fine with it either way.
I also would be fine with headhsots(thats considering there is aiming)




I thought that each Hero/class had a specific pre-defined set of feats, so that your choice of Hero/class would not only be tied to their weapon, but also their feats. If they're as defined as people seem to think they are, it would make sense that each would have a specific set of skills.
Masterclass, at 29:00 they discuss the feats/abilities. Each hero will have will have some class specific feats and then general feats and some will be upgradable.
https://youtu.be/UlU_6bgA0po


Honestly not a fan of this. It could easily lead to people wiping a team fairly easily. Better it be a one-shot affair.
I'm not a fan of this system either and I agree with your assessment..




For balance, they would have to make the draw time at least four or five seconds for a full-draw, and maybe slow your movement, or root you to the spot for the duration.
That is a good idea. While the feat is being used, your rooted to that spot. I like it.



Meh. I don't associate throwing knives with knights, for some reason. I think the crossbow fits more thematically. Of course, I associate throwing axes more with vikings than knives as well. Maybe if the shield-bearing classes had knives, since it would seem burdensome to carry a main weapon, shield, and a larger ranged weapon all at once (and again, that's assuming each Hero/class has indivdualised feats).

I'm ok with the hand crossbow, knives just seam more practical since that's what they used back then, but a crossbow one shot and drop like you mentioned would be nice thematically. I agree with you on the vikings, a throwing hatchet/axe would be more appropriate.



I've just timed the cooldown of the shuriken feat: 25 seconds. Maybe the bow should have between 50 and 75 seconds? (in the case of shooting only one arrow)
Imagine you use the Bow feat and an enemy is closer than you expected, or he surprises you. You didn't manage shoot the arrow before you switched to your sword, but the cooldown still counts down.
I see your point here, I'd go with this, I also agree with what Willow suggested here.


I don't like the idea of having to shoot them in a limited amount of time.
This leads me to two scenarios:
-Having to shoot them all (between 6 and 10) and losing the arrows we didn't fire before we switch to the sword, making the cooldown start the moment we grab the sword again.
-Having from 3 to 6 arrows to shoot and the ability to switch weapons whenever we want before the cooldown starts (and having a really longer cooldown). In that case, we end up with the idea of having a secondary weapon again. (But I like this one more)
Your right, it does lead to basically having a secondary weapon again and that's what we're trying to stay away from right. Ok so that idea is out.



About having to draw the bow to maximum length (I don't know if I said it right...) in order to gain full power it's kind of obvious, as it is like this in real life (and videogames).
I would suggest if this were the way it went, maybe a 4sec draw time. Of course you can hold it longer if needed.


Note that my suggestions ignore the fact the we may be able upgrade our feats. In that case, we could change the damage or range (in the form of different arrowheads), more arrows (longer quiver), whatever.
It's very likely possible that this feat wouldn't be upgradable. As for upgrading feats, see above video at 29:00


Also remember, we're not trying to make this a secondary-ish weapon. Just a feat to help in a moment of desperation. This is a melee game afterall and where's the honor in killing a guy across the map with arrows just because you can. I like to think of it more as a defensive feat personally.

PS. It's true, we won't know until the alpha is up and we get some feedback( please let us be in it!). Who knows, they might not even put a Bow feat in there, but I really don't see that.

EDIT: FIXED THE QUOTES (facepalm)

Solid_Altair
07-21-2015, 10:38 PM
I didn't get the upgradeable thing. But I could listen to Jason in one particular part (when he is talking about how some feats will be generic). From what you heard and interpreted, will only the generic feats be upgradeable?

For me it realy doesn't seem like they said that. And I hope the feats won't be upgradeable. Just unlock and that's it. Ability Levels are usually a terrible thing. They're not about choices, they're about giving veterans more raw power. So, they're unfair and unbalanced.

MisterWillow
07-21-2015, 11:09 PM
Masterclass, at 29:00 they discuss the feats/abilities. Each hero will have will have some class specific feats and then general feats and some will be upgradable.
https://youtu.be/UlU_6bgA0po

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm... okay. I watched the masterclass live, and I honestly don't remember that part. I guess it would just depend on whether a feat like this would be upgradeable or not. If it has a variable draw-length system like I described before, I don't think it would be necessary.

Interesting bit of information nonetheless. Jason saying "there's a big long list" makes me curious what sort of feats are going to exist.

EDIT: I listened again, and it sounds like he starts to say 'upgrade' (you only hear 'up') and stops himself and says 'unlock', so I don't know if it was a slip of the tongue and he was correcting himself, or he actually meant upgrade. Also, Solid_Altair posted while I was writing this, and I actually agree with their stance---that feats should just be unlocks without upgrades. So an effective use of a feat would depend more on a player's skill (when and how they use it) and not on the time they've put in to upgrade something (an upgrade of the hypothetical feat we're discussing, could involve a shorter draw time, an extra arrow, or something similar). In the long run, it could get very unbalanced.


I'm ok with the hand crossbow, knives just seam more practical since that's what they used back then, but a crossbow one shot and drop like you mentioned would be nice thematically. I agree with you on the vikings, a throwing hatchet/axe would be more appropriate.

Like I said, it would be cool if Hero/classes with shields had throwing knives, just to add a bit of realism, since it would be cumbersome to have a sword, shield, and crossbow/axe. Just seems like too much equipment.


Also remember, we're not trying to make this a secondary-ish weapon. Just a feat to help in a moment of desperation. This is a melee game afterall and where's the honor in killing a guy across the map with arrows just because you can. I like to think of it more as a defensive feat personally.

Yep, yep. A feat like this would be fairly situational (I think). Like, you're on one end of a bridge, and you see two opponents approaching from the other end, notice one is injured (either via health bar, or that they're limping), you activate feat, draw to what you're able before they reach you (say, you only have time to manage a half-draw), fire, and take out one of your potential opponents. Or, you notice a teammate outnumbered and want to damage/distract/draw away one opponent. Things like that. It wouldn't suddenly turn you into a sniper (and even if it did, you'd only have one shot, so its potential for abuse would be negligible).

Havemercy87
07-22-2015, 02:44 AM
I'm with you guys on feats not upgrading, but as Willow pointed out, I was thinking he says "up" and has a "hiccup"(for lack of a better word) and continued on. Also their talk about progression, given they could just be talking about the customizing your look and loadout. Now after hearing so many ppl dislike that, they may change it up(if that was their idea for part of progression), which I would be happy with.

Your part on the Bow shot is exactly what I'm thinking. I'm huge into archery btw, I'm a bower, more like a hack bower really...


Anyway, your theory on the shield bearers and the knives is good and realistic. I'd be ok with that or shield bearers don't even have a projectile. Which would be feasible also, they do have shields after all, be a bit awkward switching a sword or flail to your shield hand and grab a knife or anything for that matter and throw it. I'm gonna stand on no projectiles for shield bearers.

MisterWillow
07-22-2015, 04:48 AM
I'm with you guys on feats not upgrading, but as Willow pointed out, I was thinking he says "up" and has a "hiccup"(for lack of a better word) and continued on. Also their talk about progression, given they could just be talking about the customizing your look and loadout. Now after hearing so many ppl dislike that, they may change it up(if that was their idea for part of progression), which I would be happy with.

Progression, I think, should just be unlocking customisable weapons and armour. Re-hearing that there's a bunch of feats, those could easily be included as well. Uncharted's multiplayer had a 'perk' system, where you got to equip two passive enhancements to your character (faster climbing, extra grenade, etc.), which you unlocked as you increased in rank, and there were a bunch of those, so they could do something similar with feats. For example, you have access to a few 'stock' feats at the beginning, which you could equip and swap out how you want (these would all be the 'generic' feats, of course), and as you increase in rank, you unlock more 'generic' feats, so you can vary your gameplay.


Anyway, your theory on the shield bearers and the knives is good and realistic. I'd be ok with that or shield bearers don't even have a projectile. Which would be feasible also, they do have shields after all, be a bit awkward switching a sword or flail to your shield hand and grab a knife or anything for that matter and throw it. I'm gonna stand on no projectiles for shield bearers.

That's a very good point. I agree completely.

Solid_Altair
07-22-2015, 05:46 PM
Thanks for listening in and coming up with the "up..." theory. It fits. I think he was gonna say "upgrade", but stopped because it was really upgrade.

Besides generating "raw power" balance problems, upgradeable abilities can generate "behavioral" problems, if they're upgraded through use. Killzone Shadowfall was pretty much ruined by this.The game had an excelent spawn system, but it relied of having a couple of players placing spawn beacons. That's fine. The problem was that after fully upgrading the beacon ability, most players didn't wanna use it anymore, as they wanted to spend their time upgrading the other abilities. They didn't want to gimp themselves. This crumbled the whole balance of the game.
________

Another topic. That lady speaking around 29 minutes gave me an indirect impression that the equipment options will be only cosmetic. She said: "(by choosing feats...) You can also customize the gameplay of the character, not only the awesome visual of that armor". This evidence is far from conclusive, but it's an optimistic clue.

Havemercy87
07-23-2015, 12:47 AM
Thanks for listening in and coming up with the "up..." theory. It fits. I think he was gonna say "upgrade", but stopped because it was really upgrade.

Besides generating "raw power" balance problems, upgradeable abilities can generate "behavioral" problems, if they're upgraded through use. Killzone Shadowfall was pretty much ruined by this.The game had an excelent spawn system, but it relied of having a couple of players placing spawn beacons. That's fine. The problem was that after fully upgrading the beacon ability, most players didn't wanna use it anymore, as they wanted to spend their time upgrading the other abilities. They didn't want to gimp themselves. This crumbled the whole balance of the game.
________

Another topic. That lady speaking around 29 minutes gave me an indirect impression that the equipment options will be only cosmetic. She said: "(by choosing feats...) You can also customize the gameplay of the character, not only the awesome visual of that armor". This evidence is far from conclusive, but it's an optimistic clue.

My friend and I we're just talking about this and he agrees with you on Killzone, I've never played it, but he says it got crappy really quick for this reason and we're both hoping that your right

Dead1y-Derri
07-23-2015, 01:24 AM
Thanks for listening in and coming up with the "up..." theory. It fits. I think he was gonna say "upgrade", but stopped because it was really upgrade.

Besides generating "raw power" balance problems, upgradeable abilities can generate "behavioral" problems, if they're upgraded through use. Killzone Shadowfall was pretty much ruined by this.The game had an excelent spawn system, but it relied of having a couple of players placing spawn beacons. That's fine. The problem was that after fully upgrading the beacon ability, most players didn't wanna use it anymore, as they wanted to spend their time upgrading the other abilities. They didn't want to gimp themselves. This crumbled the whole balance of the game.
________

Another topic. That lady speaking around 29 minutes gave me an indirect impression that the equipment options will be only cosmetic. She said: "(by choosing feats...) You can also customize the gameplay of the character, not only the awesome visual of that armor". This evidence is far from conclusive, but it's an optimistic clue.

I agree with everything you've said on this subject.

Killzone MP was quite good but like you said it relied on a system where people were placing down spawn beacons otherwise you could easily end up being spawn killed..well to be fair you could never actually truly be spawn killed because you spawned in a safe area but people would just sit outside said area and wait on you.

Deadshot.
07-24-2015, 04:18 AM
So, in the case of the samurai later in the video:

http://i59.tinypic.com/ogvpyq.jpg

first slot = got a kill/captured a point (which seems to be the standard, since the knight has that as well, meaning, to me, that each class would really only have three real feats, the first 'slot' just being a sort of buffer (for lack of a better word).

second slot (left on the D-Pad) = shuriken

third slot (right on the D-Pad) = no idea; symbol indicates three uses of some sort of a poison skill (maybe apply poison to your weapon?)

fourth slot (down on the D-Pad) = arrow storm

I think that - from this picture, the points mechanics simply go towards team points (and maybe something else for the individual, like bragging rights at the end of the session), but that the STARS are what make the feats accessible. No clue as to whether or not you lose them upon death (most likely, however) - but it seems that you only need to do four impressive things to get to the max leveled feat. The picture shows that Geoff has all four (apparent by the fact that all his feats aren't greyed out....except the first one...he must've used it recently... and that he has the four stars above his name).

Watching one of the vids where the knight does an execution (he has three stars) it says "Feat unlocked" - and he attains his fourth star. Likewise, when fighting, you can see how many stars your opponent has - reminding you that he has some tricks up his sleeve.


My thought is that the knight may not have a ranged weapon like the shuriken at all, but have the "quick-heal" feat instead. Sounds more suited to the knight to have a defensive feat over an offensive one. Mind you...I haven't watched this vid for a while, so I may be forgetting something important.

Edit: Had a chance to look at a blog from someone who actually got to play. Some good tidbits of info there...
http://blog.ubi.com/for-honor-dominion-mode/
The Knights' Warden has:
* morale boost (pretty sure I saw this elsewhere, and it gives you a bunch of minions to help out - might be a different class though)
** health regen
*** catapult
**** hail of arrows

Interesting to see that standing in a control point that you 'control' rewards you with health regeneration (without having to use the feat).

AkenoKobayashi
09-09-2016, 10:48 PM
It would be more realistic to have archers. I can understand how it would be a game ruining thing. Try to attack an archer, but you get gunned down by rapid fire arrow that negate armor entirely. Perhaps reduced damage if arrows hit your armor, but standard damage if it hits an unarmored part. Aiming for the neck or for the eyes on a moving target would require skill, which would ultimately be a turn off for archers.

Demoraliz3
09-16-2016, 04:15 PM
ranged should be a special and never deal crippling damage ,, plz dont add dedicated archers to the game ubi