PDA

View Full Version : Mustangs outrunning ME262's?



XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:20 AM
I setup a co-op mission with P51's flying escort for PE-8's simulating B17's. After my initial attack on the bomber formation I circled around for another head on attack and had a P-51 start chasing me. I was doing 650 kph true airspeed and the P-51 rapidly caught up to me in level flight with my throttle set to 100%. I am used to them outdiving my 262, and am not sure how realistic that is, but outrunning a 262 in level flight when the 262 is at max speed is a bit much.
Has this been noted about A.I. P51's in another thread?

http://www.blarg.net/~Pete/IL2
http://www.blarg.net/~Pete/redbaron.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:20 AM
I setup a co-op mission with P51's flying escort for PE-8's simulating B17's. After my initial attack on the bomber formation I circled around for another head on attack and had a P-51 start chasing me. I was doing 650 kph true airspeed and the P-51 rapidly caught up to me in level flight with my throttle set to 100%. I am used to them outdiving my 262, and am not sure how realistic that is, but outrunning a 262 in level flight when the 262 is at max speed is a bit much.
Has this been noted about A.I. P51's in another thread?

http://www.blarg.net/~Pete/IL2
http://www.blarg.net/~Pete/redbaron.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:29 AM
It's all in the circumstances, friend.

The max speed of a 262 at alt should be something like at least 890km/h. 650km/h TAS is 400mph, well within a range of a normal mid-war plane to catch up with a little dive advantage.

Your 262 was going too slow.





-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:29 AM
It's not the ponies.
It's the 262.
She got her wings clipped in v1.11.
We're probably living with it.

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/WAR-08.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:25 AM
did you happen to be above 7500m? 262 is useless right now, cant even keep altitude when it gets up there, and as for being outdove, the 262 had some slippery aerodynamics and I think was heavier than the P51, so I dont think that should be right

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:33 AM
I was at 5k meters and both of us were flying level in the first post. That P51 is amazingly fast most of the time I try to fight it, although in fighter dogfights the AI has a tendency to enter a slow speed turn and allow me to catch up when it has already outpaced me.

http://www.blarg.net/~Pete/IL2
http://www.blarg.net/~Pete/redbaron.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:05 AM
DOG-SneakyPete wrote:
- After my initial attack on
- the bomber formation I circled around for another
- head on attack and had a P-51 start chasing me.

What was your speed before you circled around? How well did you manage your energy in the turn?

262s have poor acceleration.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 12:18 PM
I had a v similar experience, except I had la7s escorting the Pe8s.

After engaging them, the La7s turned on me so I went into a shallow dive, got down to below 1000 m at more than 700kph. The La7s followed, kept up with me for several minutes and then fired continuously until they got a long distance (400-500m) hit.

I doesn't seem plausible that the La7 could sustain >700 kph for several minutes.

McN

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 12:39 PM
Different circumstances, always the same. P51s caught up with the Me262. For instance, chase was at a 5k, Me262 on full throttle, after several minutes, mustangs caught up with me and shot me down.
Also, I have read that a Me262 had a unsurpasable climbing vector (going 450, vector formed by distance and height gained). It seems it have problems reaching max speed (which is much greater than max speed of the Mustang, on sea level and on 7000m), ceiling and declared climb rate.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:09 PM
Glad to see I am not the only one experiencing this. With the engines on this bird so susceptible to fire from the smallest hits not being able to outrun your enemies is a drag. I am also wondering about the engine fire modeling. I am an aircraft mechanic and it seems strange that engine fires continually religh even once the engine has been shut down. Now I can understand that air going through the turbine of a damaged engine could cause friction to increase to fire causing levels if the oil system is shot, but if the engine is shut down the fuel supply to the engine should also be shutoff. I don't want to gripe to much becasue I know how much work goes into coding a game like this, but I guess I just wish there was more randomness to the ME262's engine fires. They light up, you dive and they go out, and when you try to fly level again they light off, it follows a very predictable pattern. I do like that now an engine will sometimes just shut down when hit and the yaw drag that used to be horrendous on a shut down engine is gone.

ANYWAYS THANKS OLEG AND CREW, best sim ever, keep up the good work! I can't wait to buy the add-ons. Drooling in anticipation for Pacific theater with IL2 fidelity.

http://www.blarg.net/~Pete/IL2
http://www.blarg.net/~Pete/redbaron.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:16 PM
I tried the P-51D AI via externals and got awesome ~780km/h TAS at 7000m with her... I read the IAS value and then I took a flyable K-4 and dived with exactly that IAS speed and read the TAS value while passing 7000m. No wonder they catched you. They would even have gotten up if you had almost full speed.


<hr>

<p align=center style="width:100%; filter:glow[color=#33CCFF, strength=2)">

<img src=http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/willey110.jpg border=0 alt="Hier geht's zur I/JG78"> (http://www.jg78.de)

</p><font color=59626B>

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:43 PM
If I have to run away from an enemy plane, I ususally just dive until I have exceeded the enemy's Vmax (usually 800km/h IAS or so), then cruise for a bit and do a shallow climb.

It might not accelerate good, level, dive or otherwise, but it will stay in one piece up to 1000km/h IAS. Nothing else can.

I am now accepting donations to buy the smilies a new home.
http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb06894.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb57471.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb11726.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb75733.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb80477.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb64472.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb59442.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb80347.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb73057.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb48642.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb24962.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb72600.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb72327.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb10373.gif http://www.smiliedb.de/s/sdb70750.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:45 PM
i read something about the recon/bomber with same engines, they used to haveto turn off the fuel if engine failed

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 11:23 PM
The Arado Ar 234 Blitz, was it?

Now that would be a real interesting rig for FB...

***************************************

"Oh no, the V-1 Doodlebug is heading for our bunghole!" ---David

"...I possess the wings of faith. Though heavy on my shoulder (no measurement can prove their weight), still a burden are they not to me. I am the challenger of gravity." ---Emperor

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 11:29 PM
It may sound offtopic, but I pretty much feel a paralell here.

Or Im the lausiest pilot rather P39N model is rocketed. I got in a long speed-dive from ca. 2000m with a 109K (MW50, 110%, rad2, Manual prop.) and got speed to 850 and started to slightly climb. The cobras started about 50 meters higher than me (in the beggining of the dive). Result was that one cobra could not only follow me, but get in shooting range, and of course some bullets catched me, so ailerons where damaged. Shortly after P39N was out of range to shoot, but he could get me in time before. I would imagine that MW50 would make really a power that cant be reached by a famously underpowered '42 cobra... Aswell as I would imagine 262 outspeeding ALL prop planes in any alt in level flight. Or the expression by Galland of "like angels were pushing" is more true for P51 and La7?

I think maybe AI has advantages, or FM is weird.
This topic confirms this 2 possibilities too.

Or maybe we (pilots of FW-planes) are all lausy, paranoic, and ungifted pilots. Or maybe: you is wrong?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://membres.lycos.fr/messzer/avatar/mahgar8.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 12:07 AM
Re the 262 I'm afraid to say I disagree. I just took 2 Me-262 (me and AI wingman) up vs 8 Mustangs and 8 Pe-8. I killed 4 Pe-8 and damaged 2 before being forced to bail by bomber defensive fire. At no time were the Mustangs a threat. The trick is to start higher and attain 700kmh (yellow needle) before attacking. In dives away after firing I was reaching 950+ and on level runs back to the bomber over 700. That's plenty at 8000m.

_____________
Ian Boys
=38=Tatarenko
Kapitan - 38. OIAE

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 05:07 AM
S! All,

My CO, Erax, has been putting together a (semi-historical) mini-campaign for our squad involving the 262. One test mission was a massed Pe-8 swarm attacking Sevastopol with P-51 escorts. Airfield defence was provided by Doras. We have flown it several times, against varied AI skills. In the 262 I have never taken a P-51 bullet, although I have been chased several times. You can usually bank on something like 6-8 Pe-8 kills easily by using the climbing attack method, often without any damage at all from the gunners.

As ianboys wrote, always stay FAST. Like in the 190s, never use sudden stick movements. Take your time in turns. Treat it like a Rolls-Royce. If you line up on a fighter and it turns, just fly by, extend and choose your next attack run at leisure. Stay in control. When you are FAST no-one can touch you.

I also flew the Doras against the P-51s in the same mission. This is quite a bit tougher, but you can still survive and get kills. But if the P-51s had human pilots it would be a real challenge.

Remember to have FUN!
IV/JG7_4Shades


PS: Climbing attack method is where you dive to extreme speed, approach the bomber from low 6 (say 500 m low) and pull up into a steep climb. You should get a perfect belly shot at close range as you climb near vertically, passing just behind the bomber's tail at high speed. Accurate return gunner fire is very rare and you can just peel off to one side as you climb away to set up for the next dive-and-climb attack.

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 08:22 AM
I was not talking about mustangs diving on me. We had the same starting altitude. Mustangs didn't use yoyos in their chase. Chase was perfectly level and straight, and still they outpaced me.
In version 1.0 this was impossible. It was very hard (if not impossible) for them to catch me even when I was using very gentle turns. This isn't the case anymore. It's like Me262 cannot reach it's max speed in level flight. Also, it seems Me262 doesn't climb as it used to. In version 1.0 they couldn't catch me when I was gently climbing at high speed. In reverse, when I was chasing them, I could keep their pace and climb rate till the height of approx 9k, when the mustang's higher ceiling would prevail.

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 10:10 AM
You realise that the AI planes don't overheat, suffer gun-firing shakes, turbulence, or any other advanced FM effects, right? The flight models for non-flyable AI planes are also somewhat rough around the edges.

Wait til we get a flyable P-51 before you make any judgements about the way it behaves in FB. Comparisons between two human flown planes on the same server on the same settings are valid. Human vs AI comparisons are never valid, they simply don't use the same flight model.


http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_parasite.jpg

Need help with NewView? Read this thread. (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj)

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 10:35 AM
Ian,

I know what you tell. And yes, in the actual game 1.11 thats the way to do it. But do you really think that in level flight a jet could be reached by piston planes? Thats ok?

http://membres.lycos.fr/messzer/avatar/mahgar8.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 01:00 PM
So, prop-planes are supposed to lose all speed and immediately revert to their max level speed the moment they hit level altitude?



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 01:12 PM
"I was not talking about mustangs diving on me. We had the same starting altitude. Mustangs didn't use yoyos in their chase. Chase was perfectly level and straight, and still they outpaced me."

Excuse me. That's not what you said in your initial post.

You said:

"I circled around for another head on attack and had a P-51 start chasing me. I was doing 650 kph true airspeed and the P-51 rapidly caught up to me in level flight with my throttle set to 100%."

650km/h TAS, is definately not the 262's max speed. It is still about 200km/h to its max speed, and to reach it it'll take a lot of time.

Where were the P-51s before you circled? How hard did you pull? How fast were the P-51s initially? All of these matter very much in the incident you describe.

Actually, you stating that the P-51 caught up quickly, sort of proves that it makes sense. Whatever speeds the P-51 was in, it was definately a lot faster than you thought. Besides, the management of flightpath to enter a 'shortcut' to the enemy is also very important - ace pilots in slow planes use that technique all the time.

If the P-51 had caught up with you in a long chase, that would not have made any sense. They caught up with you because; 1) their initial speed was most probably a lot higher than yours, whereas you circled around(180d turn) once, and had to reaccelerate, or 2) they 'cut you off' with some bright flight path management, or 3) a combination of 1) and 2).

..

By anychance, you have a track file of this mission you went through? If it really is as you say, where you made no mistakes and the 51s still caught up, then I believe you. However, you'll have to prove it with a track first.



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:15 PM
LOL!
Sneaky Pete you play that game?!?!
"Sopwith" right? from around 1980!

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 08:39 PM
The 262's ASI reads IAS = TAS above 400kph.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/west-battleline.jpg



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 06:32 AM
clint-ruin wrote:
- You realise that the AI planes don't overheat,


This is not true. The AI planes overheat. If they didn't the AI 109's wouldn't be flying around with their rads open. I've chased them down enough times in a LaGG to know. Let the 109 make a couple of turns, the rad pops open and you are in business (in your non overheating LaGG).

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 07:25 PM
Hi RedHarvest,

I know I'm obviously some kind of ******, but I thought you might find this interesting, from the VOW forums:

http://www.vow-hq.com/index.php?page=forum&action=topic&id=1830&start=190

__________________________________________________ __
=RU=Youss
#Posts: 156

RegDate: 16.04.2003
Location: Belarus

Posted: Sat 20.09.2003 12:41 Title:
EJGr.Ost RolfWolf wrote:

"IL2 Compare Sucks.
It shows the Performace the Plane should have and not what they have in FB."

EJGr.Ost RolfWolf you are wrong. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ILC datas calculated by sourcecode of FB v1.11

One more: This is not my testresults in ILC - this is testresults of AI from v1.11.

I not make any tests - all tested by AI. AI found best mode in climb, speed - and write its into log.

And who are you after this? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

__________________________________________________ _____

Given that people are now complaining that the max listed speeds are "unattainable" due to overheat, and that the max speeds are apparently calculated via the FB AI, do you think that this might imply that the AI don't overheat?



http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_parasite.jpg

Need help with NewView? Read this thread. (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj)

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 08:25 PM
Me-262 seems fine now (in 1.11) performance wise, I verified the acceleration, turn and climb. I did not test the zoom and dive but they were correct in previous versions and I did not observe many curious situations online now. Do not compare with AI, AI does not respect the laws of physics (sure this should have been corrected by now, but eh, there are other more important FM issues).

Me-262 is an absolute killer online. Five minutes after I enter a room with 262 there are only sighings, in 10 minutes I score 500 points or more (depending on how many careless targets I find/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ), 10 minutes more and I end up as top scorer. Sure nobody will say an S! after they are downed by 262, I hear only hissings, luckily whining is forbidden in most rooms./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

What we need now is more rooms with 262 allowed.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 08:35 PM
clint-ruin wrote:
- Hi RedHarvest,
-
- I know I'm obviously some kind of ******, but I
- thought you might find this interesting, from the
- VOW forums:
-
- <a
- href="http://www.vow-hq.com/index.php?page=forum&a
- ction=topic&id=1830&start=190"
- target=_blank>http://www.vow-hq.com/index.php?page
- =forum&action=topic&id=1830&start=190</a>
-
-
- __________________________________________________ __
- =RU=Youss
- #Posts: 156
-
-
- RegDate: 16.04.2003
- Location: Belarus
-
-
- Posted: Sat 20.09.2003 12:41 Title:
-
- EJGr.Ost RolfWolf wrote:
-
- "IL2 Compare Sucks.
- It shows the Performace the Plane should have and
- not what they have in FB."
-
- EJGr.Ost RolfWolf you are wrong. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
-
- ILC datas calculated by sourcecode of FB v1.11
-
- One more: This is not my testresults in ILC - this
- is testresults of AI from v1.11.
-
- I not make any tests - all tested by AI. AI found
- best mode in climb, speed - and write its into log.
-
- And who are you after this? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
-
-
- __________________________________________________
- _____
-
- Given that people are now complaining that the max
- listed speeds are "unattainable" due to overheat,
- and that the max speeds are apparently calculated
- via the FB AI, do you think that this might imply
- that the AI don't overheat?
-
-
-
-
- <img
- src="http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_p
- arasite.jpg" width=315 height=240 alt=""
- align="middle">
-
- Need help with NewView? Read <a
- href="http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-
- topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj">this
- thread.</a>

This implies that "IL-2 Compare" uses the rather simplified and weird FM of AI controlled aircraft. This makes "IL-2 Compare" as a base of performance comparison pretty much useless.

============================
The important thing in [tactics] is to suppress the enemys useful actions but allow his useless actions. However, doing this alone is defensive.

Miyamoto Musashi (1584-1645)
Japanese Samurai and Philosopher
(More than 60 Victories in Hand-to-Hand combat.)


Message Edited on 09/20/0307:35PM by Oak_Groove

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 08:46 PM
-
- This implies that "IL-2 Compare" uses the rather
- simplified and weird FM of AI controlled aircraft.
- This makes "IL-2 Compare" as a base of performance
- comparison pretty much useless.
-

Not necessarily.

There are plenty of ways I can think of by which the AI could calculate this - there's been no mention that these figures are arrived at by putting planes into the 3d world of the game at all, at least, not that I've seen, yet. Could just be formula usage on the raw weight/plane composition data. Could just be a log of those calculations used by the AI to govern what it 'thinks' it can do in certain situations.

Il2Compare's a very good program but in some ways it raises a few more questions than it answers.

Anyhow, as far as Oleg is concerned, Il2Compare shows "90% of luftwhiner complaints as wrong" and it will indeed be shipping with the next expansion for FB.

*shrug*


http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_parasite.jpg

Need help with NewView? Read this thread. (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj)

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 11:34 PM
"Anyhow, as far as Oleg is concerned, Il2Compare shows "90% of luftwhiner complaints as wrong" and it will indeed be shipping with the next expansion for FB."

Luckily it can never "calculate" any proof that the FW190 cockpit and gunsight view are correct. So, if they think they can close that particular case with their little "creative" calculation programs... they better think again. Too bad, huh?

XyZspineZyX
09-20-2003, 11:53 PM
clint-ruin wrote:
-
- Anyhow, as far as Oleg is concerned, Il2Compare
- shows "90% of luftwhiner complaints as wrong" and it
- will indeed be shipping with the next expansion for


Actually the opposite is true, Il2 Compare shows how far off the real performance are at least half of the planes (and unfortunatelly the most important ones). Just tell me where to start.

With such a biased perspective you cannot claim realism as a quality of FB anymore.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 01:27 AM
I'm just quoting from an email Youss claims to have received and received permission to post over at VOW.

Take it up with Oleg if you disagree.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_parasite.jpg

Need help with NewView? Read this thread. (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj)

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 02:56 AM
HeavyMetal series on the History channel ran a episode on the P-51 Mustang. Several pilots stated that slowly they could catch a 262 in a dive. Once they caught up to it, it was all over for the 262. Also if they got the 262s to follow or chased to the deck it was also certain defeat for the 262.


P-51 Kill/Death ratio in WW2 11:1
P-47 kill/Death ratio in WW2 4.6:1


Great planes indeed and no Luffwhiner can tell me different/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Facts and Stats are what I go by not propaganda.
S~
47|FC

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 10:16 PM
The 262 was 100 mph (not Km Mph) faster than any fighter the Allies had.
It is physicaly impossible for a single prop aircraft to Generate more thrust than Twin Turbo Jets, on a single aircraft.
I would say the Allied Whiners got the 262s Wings Clipped in the previouse Patch.

Besides the 262 was a purpose built Bomber killer not a fighter, the 262 was designed to sweep in at High speed faster than any fighter escort could keep up with, and then blast a B-17 out of the sky with its 4 nose mounted 30 mm cannons.
Then sweep back and do the same again, meanwhile the fighter escort for the Bombers falls behind trying to keep up.

Single Prop versus Twin Turbojets on a single plane.
Figure it out for yourself.



Message Edited on 09/21/0309:17PM by Artic_Wulf

XyZspineZyX
09-21-2003, 10:47 PM
We've been playing a dogfight all evening with jets. Once they get up to speed (about 12-15km from base) they can't be touched. Need to get them after t/o but outside the flak belt.

_____________
Ian Boys
=38=Tatarenko
Kapitan - 38. OIAE

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 12:00 PM
Have to say that the LA-7 story about sustaining 700kph does not ring true at all.
Since the patch 111, my LA-7 falls appart between 660-670kph, so 700 would be a dream come true. I use to love flying my LA, but now the speed has been crippled, it's a real pain.
It probably is more realistic, but before the patch, the game was fun, now it's just a game.

(But still a great one!)

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 12:14 PM
I keep trying to tell people this - getting the La's above 650kmh is pushing them very close to breakup point in 1.11. Just before 700kmh they'll quite often start to lose control surfaces. If you're in a 262, or 109/190 at any kind of reasonable speed or alt, diving away from an La will leave them completely unable to follow you without ripping their plane apart.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_parasite.jpg

Need help with NewView? Read this thread. (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj)

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 02:07 PM
Because the killratio:

P47 and 51 Pilots were jused to shoot the ME 262´s down during takoff and landing...In air they couldnt catch them. This was also the reason for the >Platzschutzstaffeln, Fockes that protect the 262´s during these Manuvers

<center>http://www.Redwulf.de/Pic/aniwulf.gif
<center> Redwulf__1
<center> Geschwaderkommodore JV 44
<center> The Redwulf Squadron
<center>--------------------------------
<center>"A Wulf never walks alone"

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 05:14 PM
To Kweassa:
Sorry, but you mixed up two different posts.

Although I think my post was clear, there is a way to make it clearer.

It was QMB mission.

Start altitude 5k.

2 Me262 vs 4 Mustangs.

Mustangs AI set to average.

Start speed of ALL aircraft is 300 IAS (I guess default of QMB).

O.K., Mustangs accelerate MUCH faster than Me262, so, after couple of attempts, I did split S at begining of mission, in which I changed direction for 180 degrees, slowly reaching previous altitude, and leveling Me262 trying to run away (at 100% throttle), ie increase distance and speed enough to later convert it into height.

After leveling, it took several minutes for them to catch up with me and my wingman.

Turning very gently (I am aware that opponents are trying to cut short any curves in your flightpath) did not result in anything except getting shot. I must say, with absolutely same circumstances, this was impossible in v1.0.

I am aware that Me262 accelerated awfully slow (not scientificaly speaking, I have a video of Pierre Closterman describing his experiences with Me262-He said he was afraid that he would hit the trees at the end of the runway because Me262 was very slowly reaching take off speed. On the other hand, he also said that once it reached it's (cruise or max?) speed, it flew like a comet, absolutely astonishing. BTW, Pierre Closterman flew Spitfires, and later Tempests, and had many high speed dives on ground targets (reaching 760kmh by his accounts if I recall correctly).

This is not whining or complaining. I just want to know what's different or what I'm doing wrong.

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 06:32 PM
Rab03's experiences match mine with the 262, it's why I started this thread. We are talking baout level flight, not about one side having a height advantage and diving on the other.

http://mysite.verizon.net/pmcgwire/IL2/
http://www.blarg.net/~Pete/redbaron.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 11:06 PM
The problem is, with no disrespect to you guys, people claim all sorts of things in game. The truth is they usually say "what they think they did", rather than "what they actually did".

So the really ironic part of such discussions are, when we take everybody's testimony for granted, the game suddenly turns into a "Ripley's Believe it or Not" show.

However, my own experiences with MMOG type of games, where humongous number of people fly on-line and issue complaints about all sorts of things going on, confirms me that 99% of those people claim one thing, but actually do another. In some part of their doing, they made a mistake - if nobody makes any mistakes as they claim, then nobody would be shot down.

Checking out the recorded footages confirms that. The MMOG flight sims usually have a very comfortable and handy film recording methods, much less complicated than the IL2/FB film recording/viewing. People submit complaints with the recorded files, and when the community goes over them, we see that the film shows nothing like described.

...


So I'll say this again - if by your words alone, yes, I'll have no choice but to believe you. However, we have no idea what your saying is actually what you did. That's why a track is required.

Consider it as something like a "I saw Bigfoot!" claims. With just words, we can't confirm anything.





-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 08:54 PM
I hoped we'll get to some constructive answers. Nevertheless, I must repeat for Kweassa, much more curageos tactics than I had described worked dozens of times before (even in shooting down 8 Mustangs vs one Me 262). Also, I repeat what's been said in previous posts(of mine), I am not complaining, I am not whining, I am not demanding or asking game to be changed, I am only asking what is different, or what new tactics I should use.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 01:46 AM
No one said you were whining, or complaining.

We're just saying "Yes, but we can't believe you. Do you have a proof?"

...

As for tactics, don't use the Me262s against enemy fighters at all. The 262s were strictly interceptor fighters, not fit at all for local air-superiority purposes. Their tactical significance comes from the fact that they can out-run any escort fighter in the dust, after dealing with a much slower bomber - they did the 'joust'.

Hit the enemy by flying straight. Then, run away straight. Run far far away where nobdoy can see you, then grab altitude, and then do the same thing at the opposite direction. And then, repeat the same process again and again.




-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 02:02 AM
Actually you can kill any fighter with it in fight, not hit and run tactics. I only have problems with La7 which turns too tight and too fast (La7 also zooms good but zoom is realistic, turns are not).

If you intend to fight with Me262, do not take off with more than 25% fuel load, it makes a huge difference.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>