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crazyivan1970
01-30-2004, 04:25 PM
"After lunch on of our pilots came from the mission told us that he saw some unusual plane, flies like rocket and leaves 5 meters long tail of flames behind. No propeller at all. Some kind of evil, impossible to catch.

-Do you think germans started delivery of jet planes in the front lines?

I wanted to see this miracle myself and took off not once flying along front lines looking for it. Finally i`v seen it and it was everything that our pilot decribed. Germans designed new jet fighter, ME-163 and delivered it to front lines.

Once i had a chance to see it in action. Plane did not have alot of fuel and was gliding for some time over german territory looking for opportunity to attack. But finally engines kicked in and fighter started rapidly gaining incredible speed and leaving track of flames behind, goes into attack mode. He would penetrate our formations from top to bottom then bottom to top on unbelievable speed. Sturmovik gets on the way, it destroys it, PE-2 or fighter plane...it destroys both. Amazing plane!!!

First we paniced after seeing all this, but later on we found the method of defeating those amazing planes. We were lucky that only hand full of those were available at the time, otherwise it could mean trouble. First jet was shut down by fighter pilot of our regiment Gary Markveladze, he saw jet coming after him and allowed it to close up to firing distance...and the last moment avoided fire and as jet was passing by on amazing speed Gary fired machine guns at him and shot it down. Speed played a bad joke with german pilot, he was not able to manuever at all.

Destroyed Me163 was picked up and special comission from Moscow came to investigate new german wonder"

From memoirs of GSU Lugansky.

Just a quick translation, please forgive spelling and grammar erros http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

crazyivan1970
01-30-2004, 04:25 PM
"After lunch on of our pilots came from the mission told us that he saw some unusual plane, flies like rocket and leaves 5 meters long tail of flames behind. No propeller at all. Some kind of evil, impossible to catch.

-Do you think germans started delivery of jet planes in the front lines?

I wanted to see this miracle myself and took off not once flying along front lines looking for it. Finally i`v seen it and it was everything that our pilot decribed. Germans designed new jet fighter, ME-163 and delivered it to front lines.

Once i had a chance to see it in action. Plane did not have alot of fuel and was gliding for some time over german territory looking for opportunity to attack. But finally engines kicked in and fighter started rapidly gaining incredible speed and leaving track of flames behind, goes into attack mode. He would penetrate our formations from top to bottom then bottom to top on unbelievable speed. Sturmovik gets on the way, it destroys it, PE-2 or fighter plane...it destroys both. Amazing plane!!!

First we paniced after seeing all this, but later on we found the method of defeating those amazing planes. We were lucky that only hand full of those were available at the time, otherwise it could mean trouble. First jet was shut down by fighter pilot of our regiment Gary Markveladze, he saw jet coming after him and allowed it to close up to firing distance...and the last moment avoided fire and as jet was passing by on amazing speed Gary fired machine guns at him and shot it down. Speed played a bad joke with german pilot, he was not able to manuever at all.

Destroyed Me163 was picked up and special comission from Moscow came to investigate new german wonder"

From memoirs of GSU Lugansky.

Just a quick translation, please forgive spelling and grammar erros http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

JG26Red
01-30-2004, 04:30 PM
wow, nice shot to shoot down a 600mph plane lol... i take it was this a bomber gunner? or a fighter?

crazyivan1970
01-30-2004, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG26Red:
wow, nice shot to shoot down a 600mph plane lol... i take it was this a bomber gunner? or a fighter?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yak3 fighter

V!
Regards,

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

JG26Red
01-30-2004, 04:35 PM
wow, good shot!

crazyivan1970
01-30-2004, 04:51 PM
I would guess Yak was going at max speed too..

V!
Regards,

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

A.K.Davis
01-30-2004, 05:08 PM
Keep in mind that even the most superficial of hits would bring a Me163 down.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

crazyivan1970
01-30-2004, 05:23 PM
There are nothing else available on this episode... more likely he fired wide spray in his direction and got the engine.

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

carguy_
01-30-2004, 05:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Keep in mind that even the most superficial of hits would bring a Me163 down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Although you`d rather fly Me163 against Yak3 in FB,right?I know I would.

As for the real world - game relation I`m pretty sure that a minority will be able to take off in LW jets.When ppl get LW jets,almost 1/2 stay on the ground. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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crazyivan1970
01-30-2004, 05:29 PM
You have a point there carguy, taking off from from anything but concrete on those jets is a challenge. At least in FR it is. Me262 could manuever using engines... but not so sure about 163 lol. It`s like a flying wing hehe

V!
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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Dunkelgrun
01-30-2004, 05:32 PM
Nothing in the books to support this. Me 163s were ordered to Brandis to protect the Merseburg-Leuna refineries. Any airfield used for the Komet needed a hell of a lot of infrastructure, esp regarding fuel, that even where they were based it was still a problem. Perhaps 'Russia' is a bit misleading. Was it really Germany that had already been overrun by the Soviets?

Cheers!

Edit: books - Me 163 Rocket Interceptor by Stephen Ransom & Hans-Hermann Cammann vols 1 & 2.

2nd edit. Did the Russians really ever meet the 163 in combat? They certainly captured a few after over running the airfields, including a two-seater. So where are they now?

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[This message was edited by Dunkelgrun on Fri January 30 2004 at 04:46 PM.]
2nd Edit for inaccuracy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

[This message was edited by Dunkelgrun on Sat January 31 2004 at 04:33 AM.]

faustnik
01-30-2004, 05:33 PM
I don't think the take-off was half as bad as the landing.

No need for wheels, just float in on the little skid. Make sure you don't shake up the left over fuel or it will melt you.

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Dunkelgrun
01-30-2004, 05:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
I don't think the take-off was half as bad as the landing.

No need for wheels, just float in on the little skid. Make sure you don't shake up the left over fuel or it will melt you.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif



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http://www.7jg77.com

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They had the option to jettison the remaining fuel, as it was not thought prudent to land with any. Not because of the risk of explosion, but because the T-stoff (hydrogen peroxide) set fire to and dissolves organic matter (if the tank ruptured, bye bye pilot).

Cheers!

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Edit: spelling

[This message was edited by Dunkelgrun on Fri January 30 2004 at 04:52 PM.]

crazyivan1970
01-30-2004, 05:47 PM
Looks like it was on the border with Poland ... or maybe in Poland, but deffinitely not in Germany.

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

VW-IceFire
01-30-2004, 05:48 PM
This gives us some fantastic possibilities for some Co-Op missions. A small group of Me163's against a Russian bomber formation (all the better if they are piloted) and some fighters to try and stop them.

Might be interesting...or frusterating. We'll see.

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Dunkelgrun
01-30-2004, 05:50 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Keep in mind that even the most superficial of hits would bring a Me163 down.

--AKD

Not sure here - any proof? Nobody got very near. One by a B-17 tail gunner and another by a Mustang. Sorry if there were any more but I haven't finished the books.

From what I've read no more superficial (lucky shot) than any other aircraft.

Cheers!

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Dunkelgrun
01-30-2004, 05:59 PM
Crazyivan, where did you get the info, Google doesn't help. There is so much that isn't in the books. Interested to know if it really happened (my initial thoughts were mis-identification of Me262, but not sure after having re-read your original post).
Any information gratefully received, Cheers!

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Zyzbot
01-30-2004, 06:04 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dunkelgrun:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Keep in mind that even the most superficial of hits would bring a Me163 down.

--AKD

Not sure here - any proof? Nobody got very near. One by a B-17 tail gunner and another by a Mustang. Sorry if there were any more but I haven't finished the books.

QUOTE]


USAF fighters shot down 5 Me-163 if I recall.

crazyivan1970
01-30-2004, 06:04 PM
Dunkel, this is a book, written in russian by soviet ace HSU Lugansky. I don`t see specific reason for him to give false information, but there is no well documented resources of that encounter. If you can read in russian, it`s here: http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/lugansky/index.html

I simply translated a small part of it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

A.K.Davis
01-30-2004, 06:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dunkelgrun:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Keep in mind that even the most superficial of hits would bring a Me163 down.

--AKD

Not sure here - any proof? Nobody got very near. One by a B-17 tail gunner and another by a Mustang. Sorry if there were any more but I haven't finished the books.

From what I've read no more superficial (lucky shot) than any other aircraft.

Cheers!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because the pilot was surrounded by extremely volatile rocket fuel. Obviously the idea was not to be hit in the first place.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

Dunkelgrun
01-30-2004, 06:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Dunkel, this is a book, written in russian by soviet ace HSU Lugansky. I don`t see specific reason for him to give false information, but there is no well documented resources of that encounter. If you can read in russian, it`s here: http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/lugansky/index.html

I simply translated a small part of it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for your efforts Ivan, I'm just sceptical I suppose. I've no real reason to be as everything I know about the 163 is from books. Keep it coming, much appreciated.

PS I can't read Russian, surprise, surprise. I'm English and we have trouble with French!

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Dunkelgrun
01-30-2004, 06:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dunkelgrun:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Keep in mind that even the most superficial of hits would bring a Me163 down.

--AKD

Not sure here - any proof? Nobody got very near. One by a B-17 tail gunner and another by a Mustang. Sorry if there were any more but I haven't finished the books.

From what I've read no more superficial (lucky shot) than any other aircraft.

Cheers!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because the pilot was surrounded by extremely volatile rocket fuel. Obviously the idea was not to be hit in the first place.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Aye, true. But at something approaching the speed of sound they didn't get hit too often, even the glide in to attack was faster than the bombers' guns could traverse.
It would really have been interesting for the 163 to have been produced and used in large numbers. Then the Me263 may well have made a difference, but only if the factories could have been protected. Ah, the what ifs....
Just as well in the long run.

Cheers!

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Istreliteli
01-30-2004, 06:45 PM
by "over russia' its pretty obvious that "over some part of germany at the end of the war" surely at that point, an encounter between the VVS and a Komet was possible if not probable.
Its not like the VVS claims 5000 downed Komets it claims 1 or maybe 2.
The VVS pilots at that time were good, so why couldnt it have happened?

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Waldo.Pepper
01-30-2004, 07:52 PM
The two seat Komet mentioned in an earlier post... mentioned as being the only one made....was a convertion done on a captured example by the Soviets. The Germans never made a 2 seater Komet. Furthermore, the Soviet conversion has the engine removed.

The English test flew one after the war. The English tests were glide tests. But if I remember correctly the British did intend to make powered flights.

The risk of organic matter being eaten was real... but minor compared to the likelyhood of an explosion on touchdown if there was any fuel in the tanks.

P.S. I am having a blast preparing to fly this plane. For practice I am flying the Soviet B-1 against the B-17's. I figure if I can down a B-17 with the puny armarment of the B-1 I shall do OK with the Me-163b.

Ciao!

Dunkelgrun
01-31-2004, 03:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:

P.S. I am having a blast preparing to fly this plane. For practice I am flying the Soviet B-1 against the B-17's. I figure if I can down a B-17 with the puny armarment of the B-1 I shall do OK with the Me-163b.

Ciao!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same here. I get really frustrated though with the BI-1's capabilities. It wont go faster than 720-730 km/h without hitting critical Mach and nosing over. Am looking forward to the 163 and the extra 200 km/h. I might be able to avoid the bombers' gunners then! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Cheers!

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Dunkelgrun
01-31-2004, 05:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
The two seat Komet mentioned in an earlier post... mentioned as being the only one made....was a convertion done on a captured example by the Soviets. The Germans never made a 2 seater Komet. Furthermore, the Soviet conversion has the engine removed.

The English test flew one after the war. The English tests were glide tests. But if I remember correctly the British did intend to make powered flights.

The risk of organic matter being eaten was real... but minor compared to the likelyhood of an explosion on touchdown if there was any fuel in the tanks.

P.S. I am having a blast preparing to fly this plane. For practice I am flying the Soviet B-1 against the B-17's. I figure if I can down a B-17 with the puny armarment of the B-1 I shall do OK with the Me-163b.

Ciao!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to Ransom & Cammann the Germans did indeed make and fly the two-seater Komet, the Me163S.
The conversion from B to S was carried out by Deutsche Lufthansa AG at Berlin-Staaken. There was an initial order for 30 trainers, but it was cancelled on 25/11/44. It's not certain how many were built, but there are records of at least six being delivered. There are also records in pilots log books of flights in the 163S. A Junkers test pilot, Hans-Joacim Pancherz towed one, flown by Heinz Peters, to Brandis where it was subsequently flown a few more times. The pilots didn't like it much and considered it too dangerous to be of any use as a trainer.
This aircraft wasn't found at Brandis when the Americans captured the airfield, and it's not certain where the Russians found the three that they subsequently tested and flew.

Cheers!

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BerkshireHunt
01-31-2004, 07:45 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dunkelgrun:
There are also records in pilots log books of flights in the 163S. A Junkers test pilot, Hans-Joacim Pancherz towed one, flown by Heinz Peters, to Brandis where it was subsequently flown a few more times. The pilots didn't like it much and considered it too dangerous to be of any use as a trainer.
This aircraft wasn't found at Brandis when the Americans captured the airfield, and it's not certain where the Russians found the three that they subsequently tested and flew.

In 'Under THe Red Star- Luftwaffe Aircraft In Soviet Service' (by Carl Fredrik Geust) there are photographs of a 163S with red stars applied and the number 'white 94' on its side. It was test flown (without engine power as no fuel was available) in 1945/46 by Mark Gallaj towed by a Tu2 flown by his test pilot colleague, Igor Shelest. This machine had been captured at Brandis. Both men later published several volumes of memoirs concerning these tests- the Russians wanted to find out how a jet/rocket aircraft with swept wings could be safely landed without engine power. Gallaj crashed the machine after having deliberately altered its centre of gravity and it was damaged beyond repair. However, he continued powerless flying three weeks later in a single seat 163B. He told Geust in 1983 that he was disappointed the Soviets had no fuel for the aircraft- he would have been very eager to test its true potential.
The 163S was flown by a number of Soviet fighter aces, including Yakov Vernikov (147 Guards IAP) and AA Yefimov. A single seat 163B (WkNr 191952) was test flown behind a Tu2 at NII VVS by Vladimir Golofastov. He made a total of 17 flights from a maximum release altitude of 6000m. The book includes photos of this machine as well.
The Russians went on to develop the Mikoyan I-270 rocket fighter which closely resembled the Me263A-0.
Th book states that Russian forces captured more than 20 Me163 and Me262 fighters at Oranienburg, Dalgow and Templehof.

This comment is interesting:
"Concerning access to German aeronautics know- how, the Soviet Union was in a favourable position as up to two thirds of Germany's aircraft factories were in the Soviet Occupation Zone:
Siebel at Halle
Heinkel at Rostock- Warnemunde and Oranienburg
Junkers at Dessau
Messerschmitt at Wiener Neustadt
Arado ay Berlin- Babelsberg
Dornier at Wismar
Henschel at Erfurt and Berlin

In addition, some of the most important aircraft engine factories were captured by the Soviets:
Junkers Motoren- Werke at Bernburg an der Saale
BMW at Eisenach."

Which is presumably one reason why so many German factory records, production figures and prototype listings are unknown- they are locked up in Soviet archives.

Dunkelgrun
01-31-2004, 08:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BerkshireHunt:
In 'Under THe Red Star- Luftwaffe Aircraft In Soviet Service' (by Carl Fredrik Geust) there are photographs of a 163S with red stars applied and the number 'white 94' on its side. It was test flown (without engine power as no fuel was available) in 1945/46 by Mark Gallaj towed by a Tu2 flown by his test pilot colleague, Igor Shelest. This machine had been captured at Brandis. Both men later published several volumes of memoirs concerning these tests- the Russians wanted to find out how a jet/rocket aircraft with swept wings could be safely landed without engine power. Gallaj crashed the machine after having deliberately altered its centre of gravity and it was damaged beyond repair. However, he continued powerless flying three weeks later in a single seat 163B. He told Geust in 1983 that he was disappointed the Soviets had no fuel for the aircraft- he would have been very eager to test its true potential.
The 163S was flown by a number of Soviet fighter aces, including Yakov Vernikov (147 Guards IAP) and AA Yefimov. A single seat 163B (WkNr 191952) was test flown behind a Tu2 at NII VVS by Vladimir Golofastov. He made a total of 17 flights from a maximum release altitude of 6000m. The book includes photos of this machine as well.
The Russians went on to develop the Mikoyan I-270 rocket fighter which closely resembled the Me263A-0.
Th book states that Russian forces captured more than 20 Me163 and Me262 fighters at Oranienburg, Dalgow and Templehof.

This comment is interesting:
"Concerning access to German aeronautics know- how, the Soviet Union was in a favourable position as up to two thirds of Germany's aircraft factories were in the Soviet Occupation Zone:
Siebel at Halle
Heinkel at Rostock- Warnemunde and Oranienburg
Junkers at Dessau
Messerschmitt at Wiener Neustadt
Arado ay Berlin- Babelsberg
Dornier at Wismar
Henschel at Erfurt and Berlin

In addition, some of the most important aircraft engine factories were captured by the Soviets:
Junkers Motoren- Werke at Bernburg an der Saale
BMW at Eisenach."

Which is presumably one reason why so many German factory records, production figures and prototype listings are unknown- they are locked up in Soviet archives.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hmm, interesting. The Americans captured Brandis on 16 April 1945, and reportedly found two intact aircraft and the wreckage of about 300. The two intact were a Me163B and the Ho 229. However, American personnel visited on 6 May and inspected 33 wrecked Me163s out of an aircraft total of 131.
Obviously the first estimate of numbers was too high due to the situation, but nowhere is the two-seater 163S mentioned. The Russians didn't take over at Brandis until 1 July.
Either the 163S was found somewhere else, or there was a secret deal done to hand over the two-seater and delete all mention of it. Plenty of time between 16 April and 6 May.
Of course, we'll probably never find out.
Cheers!

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MiloMorai
01-31-2004, 08:45 AM
Flying the Me163 by Rudy Opitz.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.walker6/komet/flight/flight1.htm

Fuel left in the tanks was not a problem. What was the problem was any T-stoff that had collected in the skid. On touch-down, this would splash around and cause an explosion.

The long exhaust tail from the Me163 was steam. The actual flame was very small and was of a yellow/green almost transparent colour.

This site on the 163 and rocket fuel is a must read. http://www.walter-rockets.i12.com/walter/walter.htm



Long live the Horse Clans.

crazyivan1970
01-31-2004, 08:54 AM
Gotta love you guys, you question everything lol. Even those who went thru entire war and survived. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

V!
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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

SeaFireLIV
01-31-2004, 09:05 AM
Amazing stuff, Crazy! I hope I come across an me163 in Campaign with the add-on. I was always interested in pilot`s first reactions to this `UFO` of the time!

Ahh, so few Russian accounts have been printed in the West. A legacy of the Cold War.

It`s good to see people question things, they should. But sometimes you have to say, "Well i`ve done as much as I could and must accept the facts."

Otherwise you`ll go so far as to question your own existence!

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/greypilots.jpg