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View Full Version : Do the best of the Fw190s(A,D and TA series) out perform the Bf109G6 in Turn rate/radius from 0m-6km



Ironman69
07-30-2004, 06:13 AM
Please post your response here with definitive answers. This question is valid with patch v2.04 please. Planes must be identical configurations: flaps, radiator, wep, fuel and so forth.

Ironman69
07-30-2004, 06:13 AM
Please post your response here with definitive answers. This question is valid with patch v2.04 please. Planes must be identical configurations: flaps, radiator, wep, fuel and so forth.

Ironman69
07-30-2004, 06:15 AM
I only ask this because many history books and aviation books clearly state the Fw190 WAS the better maneauvering aircraft and low to medium altitudes. But what about in ACE v.2.04 ?

JtD
07-30-2004, 07:36 AM
The BF is the better turner.

However, the FW has more sensitive controls which allow you to turn sharply at high speeds without using any trim. It's also more agile at high speed. So the FW is more maveuverable, the Bf turns better. Way better.

Fillmore
07-30-2004, 08:27 AM
"maneauvering"

This is NOT THE SAME AS TURNING.

I don't like the 109s as much as the 190s, if you were to ask me which I thought was more manevuverable I would say the 190s without a doubt, and that is in fact my primary reason for prefferring them over the 109s. But I would also say the 190s are VASTLY inferior at turning than 109s.

F19_Ob
07-30-2004, 09:09 AM
In FB 109s turn better in slow speeds than the others and Ta isnt bad because of its power.
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Historically and To my knowledge so far, the 109 is the best turner compared to the fw190's since it has better slowspeed handling and accelleration (according to pilots who flew both, but many had flown the 109 longer and knew it better). Also There is a difference in the specs in books and actual performance in combat regarding to speed and engine lifespan(also Golodnikov pointed this out in his 4th interview, posted a few days ago).
About the Ta I cant say much yet.
-------------------------------------------

But this was only about turn-rate. The fw's and Ta's had other qualities, especially in high speeds and safety improvements (gear, view and such). So u just cant say that the one plane is better.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

eXtra_Corrosiv
07-30-2004, 10:20 AM
in my bf109, should i be trimming during hard turning? I'm no uber pilot, and still learning.

or did the comment mean trimming coming out of hard turns as i do already?

--------------------------------------------
Athlon 3200+ / 2x512 corsair c2pt 3200LL / radeon X800 Pro / Audigy 2 ZS / WinXP / Saitek X45
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p4c 3000 -800/ abit ic7/2x512 corsair twin x LL/ bfg 6800u /audigy platinum/ winxp ch fighter stick and usb throttle.

Fennec_P
07-30-2004, 10:53 AM
If you are above 500km/h, trim becomes usefull for overcoming control heaviness.

F19_Ob
07-30-2004, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eXtra_Corrosiv:
in my bf109, should i be trimming during hard turning? I'm no uber pilot, and still learning.

or did the comment mean trimming coming out of hard turns as i do already?

--------------------------------------------
Athlon 3200+ / 2x512 corsair c2pt 3200LL / radeon X800 Pro / Audigy 2 ZS / WinXP / Saitek X45
--------------------------------------------
p4c 3000 -800/ abit ic7/2x512 corsair twin x LL/ bfg 6800u /audigy platinum/ winxp ch fighter stick and usb throttle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



This is my personal opinion, and what I think works best in turning 109's.

I try to see to it that my plane is always trimmed out(exept on landing or takoff) so the nose doesnt pull up, infact down is better. If the nose pulls up when u get a shooting opportunity u mostly miss when u try push the stick forward, it becomes unstable.(especially with sticks with twistrudder)

I never use trim for turning.
To make hardest possible turn, I idle engine and pull as hard as I dare. This way u can turn inside almost any plane, but for a very limited time = speed is gone = U better hit.
Other times i flex between hard, bleeding turns with combatflap, followed by not so sharp turns without combatflap.
Horizontal oneway-turns is mostly bad in any 109 and should be mixed vith vertical turns or high and low yoyo's and climbs.
Early 109's cant outturn early yaks, but can outclimb them, even a slight climb might make a yak 1 flip after some hard turns. It depends ultimatly on the coolness and experience of the pilot.
The bf109 shines in its low speed handling, and and accelleration, and while turning oneway in a circle mostly is bad, scissoring is mostly good because the 109 doesnt flip as easy as many ac. lowspeed handling is not easy in the 109, and like any ac it takes some time to find and master the limits.
Also many think that they didnt fly right when shot down, but mostly in any engagement its about the ac's "initial" position when the fight begins that decide the outcome, not always pilotskill or turnrate.

Try to fight another 109 in your 109 and u will find its not easy to shoot it down either....so, "initial positioning".
So another similarperformance plane that gets a better "initial" angle on u likely wins the fight. This is why u can shot a 109 down in an il-2.
So the limited turn in the 109 isnt bad, the trouble is to keep your energy up. and to work with flaps only when u need it is an important part of keeping E high.

I answered another post on climbing in the 109 today. Roughly u climb and add flaps at the end of the climb so u get a bit higher. If u climb after an enemy ucan swing the nose with the rudder for a snapshot on him and rudder to point nose down again.

Just a few thoughts.....

F19_Ob
07-30-2004, 11:09 AM
Fennecs tip for high speeds is good too...

RJNewly
07-30-2004, 11:17 AM
How does one "trim" the plane? I have a MSFFB2 stick. This is a serious questions please don't laugh or call me stupid. What are the advantages of trimming the plane?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eXtra_Corrosiv:
in my bf109, should i be trimming during hard turning? I'm no uber pilot, and still learning.

or did the comment mean trimming coming out of hard turns as i do already?

--------------------------------------------
Athlon 3200+ / 2x512 corsair c2pt 3200LL / radeon X800 Pro / Audigy 2 ZS / WinXP / Saitek X45
--------------------------------------------
p4c 3000 -800/ abit ic7/2x512 corsair twin x LL/ bfg 6800u /audigy platinum/ winxp ch fighter stick and usb throttle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TugZooey
07-30-2004, 11:27 AM
Trimming the plane refers to tabs that are (on some) on the separate control surfaces: rudder, aileron and elevator. It helps to keep your bird stable when it would be otherwise "drifting" due to lift or torque.

Generally, if you have the throttle nailed, your nose will tend to rise. Trim negates this with pilot input (key binding). I put elevator trim on a rotary knob on the throttle of my x-45.

I find it helpful for flying level and countering lift due to speed or flaps. You don't have to fight the stick if your plane is trimmed.

Obviously I'm no physicist or aeronautical engineer (or real pilot), so take this as a simple explanation (and if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will point that out http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

http://img73.photobucket.com/albums/v221/milank/grab0002.png

F19_Ob
07-30-2004, 01:20 PM
Tugzooey is right.

If U look at "elevator", "rudder" and "ailerons" u see smaller trim-tabs on them.
Elevatortrim is the mostly used.
some planes like the 109 only have elevator trim "pilotadjustable". The other trimtabs are "adjusted on ground only" by the groundcrew and set for cruisingspeed, so the plane will fly level and straight at this speed.
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If u fly full power u find that when u pick up speed, the nose rises, so instead of constantly being forced to push the stick forward to remain level, the pilot can "trim" the elevator tab so it wont pull up, so u can fly hands off.
The opposit thing happens when u return to land. As speed drops ,so does your nose, so instead of pulling the stick on landing , u trim nose up and landing goes smoother.
If u use elevator only it causes drag and forces u to use a portion of its mobility unnescessarily. Trim also eases the pilots physical workload.
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I think u have to assign two keys for it, up and down in ("positive" and "negative" )I belive it was.

So...Elevator trim is used the most..even in normalflight sometimes in combat, (as u like).

Some planes like the russian I-16 have no trim at all.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[This message was edited by F19_Ob on Sat July 31 2004 at 12:38 AM.]

steel_blue_eagle
07-30-2004, 03:34 PM
Trim is a way to set the control surfaces so that with zero stick input there is slight elevator/aileron/rudder applied. This way you can for example keep your nose level without constantly applying stick.

WUAF_Badsight
07-30-2004, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ironman69:
I only ask this because many history books and aviation books clearly state the Fw190 WAS the better maneauvering aircraft and low to medium altitudes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Manouverability & turning ability

2 different things

IRL one jink was enough to shake a bandit

the FW was awesome in this regard because of its fast roll rate

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

F16_Filur
07-30-2004, 05:03 PM
If you enter vertical fights &lt;350km/h you want to have the default nose up trim in the 109. Then you need less stickinput for the same manouver = less drag (the default trim for the 109 is quite heavy nose up). That´s shift + uparrow (cancel trimsettings). You can map a joystickbutton for this one, gives an edge in horisontal turning too. Then you probably want to go back to the trim for level flying of course. Fast. That´s a bit tricky I guess if you dont have the trim mapped to a rotary or something.

Just my 2 kr.

BTW, I found that at low speeds +-300km/h the FW190D9 could match a Mustangs turn if takeoff flaps were used. It´s good to use offensive, but you can´t outturn him defensive I guess.

JV44Rall
07-30-2004, 06:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
Manouverability & turning ability

2 different things

IRL one jink was enough to shake a bandit

the FW was awesome in this regard because of its fast roll rate.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed.

A memo on the RAF's 1942 testing of a captured FW states that, compared to a Spit MkIX, the "FW 190 is more manoeuvrable . . . except in turning circle, when it is out-turned without difficulty. The superior rate of roll of the FW 190 enabled it to avoid the Spitfire IX if attacked when in a turn by flicking over into a diving turn in the opposite direction, and as with the Spitfire VB, the Spitfire IX had great difficulty in following this manoeuvre." (This was a 1942 MkIX, which had a standard carburetor.)

I flick my FWs around a fair bit. Rarely does this lose a Spit on my six.

Ironically, the FW tested against the Spit MkIX was . . . an A3.

I doubt it can be fairly said that a FW 190 A4 or A5 is even close to matching a Spit MkIX in FB AEP 2.04.

http://www.jagdverband44.com/JV44Banner400x75.jpg

OldMan____
07-30-2004, 07:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F16_Filur:
If you enter vertical fights &lt;350km/h you want to have the default nose up trim in the 109. Then you need less stickinput for the same manouver = less drag (the default trim for the 109 is quite heavy nose up). That´s shift + uparrow (cancel trimsettings). You can map a joystickbutton for this one, gives an edge in horisontal turning too. Then you probably want to go back to the trim for level flying of course. Fast. That´s a bit tricky I guess if you dont have the trim mapped to a rotary or something.

Just my 2 kr.

BTW, I found that at low speeds +-300km/h the FW190D9 could match a Mustangs turn if takeoff flaps were used. It´s good to use offensive, but you can´t outturn him defensive I guess.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

just the oposite. Try to tunr at 650 Km/h... nothing turns better tha 190 at this speed. P51 can turn also.. but it may turn into garbage if doing too hard.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

KG26_Alpha
07-30-2004, 08:23 PM
I use these stick settings for FW190

[rts_joystick]
X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Z=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=1
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1X=0 93 94 94 94 94 95 93 94 96 97 0
1Y=0 93 94 91 91 91 90 93 96 90 100 0
1RZ=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0

MSFFB2 green light and red light sticks works great for me.

http://www.freewebs.com/kg26/

Dolemite-
07-31-2004, 01:27 AM
Your not trying to get into TnB fights with Ger Planes right? Becuase thats against LW regulations.

___________________________________________
Flying on HL as {Dolemite}
http://www.talonse.com/supergreg.swf &lt;----- ya wont regret it

F19_Ob
07-31-2004, 01:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dolemite-:
Your not trying to get into TnB fights with Ger Planes right? Becuase thats against LW regulations.

___________________________________________
Flying on HL as {Dolemite}
http://www.talonse.com/supergreg.swf &lt;----- ya wont regret it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



They even told Marseille that, but he wouldnt listen...so they sabotaged his engine.

No seriously..Luftwaffe doctrin was always to have altitude and do diving attacks from advantage point. And never to fly solo, a group of 4 (swarm) was the norm, but pairs would do in emergency. ( U arnt rattling around up there alone, are u? )
Many LW and finnish pilots that I read about used dogfights, preferably with much vertical moves.
The finns sometimes adapted opposit LW tactics and two fighters would sometimes attack 50 bombers with 50 escort.( I guess they didnt have icons enabled) and they kept on outturning yaks and La5's and p39's in horisontal turning.( yes crasy)


Guess G.Rall summs airbattle with this:
"U dont always have the favor to choose your position. U are in, U have to see how U come out".


All pilots on all sides tried to have altitude and speed.

But still I'm sure that strict BnZ and running away when the odds are even remotly unfavorable, will keep any pilot alive longer.

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F16_Filur
07-31-2004, 05:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
just the oposite. Try to tunr at 650 Km/h... nothing turns better tha 190 at this speed. P51 can turn also.. but it may turn into garbage if doing too hard.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I saw a similar thing on a track I recorded. I flew a Mustang and was chased by a 109, we were both at around 550km/h, and a max turn at that speed did loose the 109.... How would you suggest continuing such a move? You loose him initially, but I doubt you would land on his six by just keep turning? I dont know yet...
The move gives you some lateral separation so I guess you could at least go into the vertical and into a rolling scissors.

F16_Filur
08-01-2004, 02:44 AM
Well, how would you use this tactic of better high speed turnperformance to win?

I find it interesting. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JtD
08-02-2004, 02:22 AM
Edit: I did post a link of a ntrk but it's not there anymore.

OldMan____
08-02-2004, 05:14 AM
Oututning a 109 at 550 is not hard. I said 190!! It turns much better at very high speeds (although it cannot keep doing this for long).

A 190 can keep with a P51 easy in a single sharp turn at high speed. But would be wiser to make a vertical turn to avoid loosing too much speed. Also remember is almost impossoble to give an horizontal deflection shot with 190.. so you must move in vertical... rolling to keep your vision.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

Cippacometa
08-02-2004, 06:36 AM
The question starting this thread: "Do the best of the Fw190s(A,D and TA series) out perform the Bf109G6 in Turn rate/radius from 0m-6km?" seems to have been forgotten by most of the people here! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Assuming that the question refers to real aircraft, the answer is:
All FW.190As and D turned better than Bf.109G-6 (and all Es, Fs, Gs and K serie) at speeds superior than 400-450 km/h (TAS).
All Bf.109s turned better than any FW.190 at lower speeds.
This was true at any eight between 0 and 4-5,000 m, and mostly due to the higher wing load of FW.190s, which made them more effective at higher speeds.

Some comments: due to its higher wing load and less efficient compressor, at high altitude FW.190As started to "suffer" in terms of performance and maneuvrability, while FW.190D-9 could retain good performance due to its Jumo engine, as well as Bf.109 due to their DB powerplant.

Ta-152 were deployed in almost non significant amounts during WWII and saw very limited action. I never found any reliable comparative data on this airplane. However, it is known that this aircraft had very good performances at high altitude and up to 13,000 m, while I can't say anything certain about its maneuvrability.

IL-2FB-AEP models all this stuff accurately. If you want to compare IL-2FB-AEP aircaraft turn radius vs speed, max speed vs altitude, etc, I suggest you to find and download the last version of the nice program called "IL-2 compare" (can't remember the link!). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

dadada1
08-02-2004, 12:52 PM
For the Ta we have only anecdotal pilot stories/ feelings about the ta in comparison to 190A. Willi Resche, who'd previously flown A8's with JG 301 felt it superior in climb, acceleration,and manouverability to the A8, most of JG301s pilots were extremely complimentary about the 152. Most pilots wrer equally complimentary about the 190D9, feeling it the equal of the latest allied aircraft and in some cases superior. general consensus is the Ta was even better than the D9.