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BigKahuna_GS
04-01-2004, 03:45 PM
S!


Subject: P38 Tail Radar


S! Oleg,

Will the tail radar on the P38L be operational and if so how will it work in the game ?

Radar ranges, sounds ect.

Thanks

______________


Oleg reply,


I need the full description about how it was indicated for a pilot. Was there some light or sound? where was light?, on which distance, etc. I hvae no info and had not it for modeling. The same system was on some of P-63s.
The diagram of radio waves distributions behind the plane - I have.
Other than that is not a great problem, except time of development.

________________________


Oleg will model this if he has the info needed. Does anyone out there have some information on the P38 Tail Warning Radar?

It's that antenna looking thing on the bottom of the right boom and rudder area.


I havent found anything substantial yet.



Thanks, BK



CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson : It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

BigKahuna_GS
04-01-2004, 03:45 PM
S!


Subject: P38 Tail Radar


S! Oleg,

Will the tail radar on the P38L be operational and if so how will it work in the game ?

Radar ranges, sounds ect.

Thanks

______________


Oleg reply,


I need the full description about how it was indicated for a pilot. Was there some light or sound? where was light?, on which distance, etc. I hvae no info and had not it for modeling. The same system was on some of P-63s.
The diagram of radio waves distributions behind the plane - I have.
Other than that is not a great problem, except time of development.

________________________


Oleg will model this if he has the info needed. Does anyone out there have some information on the P38 Tail Warning Radar?

It's that antenna looking thing on the bottom of the right boom and rudder area.


I havent found anything substantial yet.



Thanks, BK



CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson : It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

VMF513_Sandman
04-01-2004, 06:23 PM
i did hear something about the tail warning radar. it was so that the pilot would be advised if he was about to scrape the bottom of the rudder's on the runway on takeoff. that couldnt be a good thing to do http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

dahdah
04-01-2004, 07:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigKahuna_GS:

It's that antenna looking thing on the bottom of the right boom and rudder area.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that military or civlian right?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"an APS-13 tail warning radar, fitted to the left aft boom"

from http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38-3.html

The radar operated on 'L' band.

"The US also built a series of tail-warning radars, most notably the "AN/APS-13" for fighters. This was a low-power pulse radar set, operating at 67 cm / 450 MHz, that flashed a red light and rang a bell when an enemy aircraft was approaching from the rear."

plus some other info http://www.vectorsite.net/ttwiz5.html#m1

AN/APS-13 was used in the atomic bomb.

Why does he not model the AN/APS-13 like what the AI has now?

CPS_Shadow
04-01-2004, 07:52 PM
Also: http://www.duxfordradiosociety.org/restoration/conservedequip/aps13/aps13.html

BigKahuna_GS
04-02-2004, 04:22 PM
S!

Great Information guys !

Did anybody see the range in distance of warning when a bandit would be on your 6 ?



CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson : It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

Flamin_Squirrel
04-03-2004, 04:30 AM
I wonder how many pilots emptied their bowels because their wingman flew behind them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

BigKahuna_GS
04-03-2004, 04:59 AM
S!


I did not realize just how many aircraft had this radar feature. They also had IFF.



RT-34/APS-13 Tail Warning Radar (USA)



The RT-34/APS-13 is a low power UHF tail warning radar transmitter/receiver which was used in Allied aeroplanes such as the P51 Mustang and also the P-38L, P-47D, P-61, P-63, P-82D in the later stages of the war.

The equipment operates at 420 MHz with a receiver IF of 30 MHz and is powered by an internal rotary generator which is supplied from the aircraft 27V dc system.

The electro-mechanical construction is all aluminium, and the equipment uses all miniature glass valves except for the voltage stabiliser which is a VR105V (0C3). The PA is two 6J6s.


__________________



CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson : It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

VW-IceFire
04-03-2004, 08:20 AM
Didn't some of the P-51's also feature this radar set?

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

RAF-Blackace
04-03-2004, 11:34 AM
S!

There is more information at Bills Radio Web Page.

He has a full military list of all radio US equipment.

Just search for RT-34 or APS-13 in the data base.

It even gives you a Schematic Circuit diagram LOL.

The warning was a bell and a Red light to say that an aircraft had entered the zone of the radar, (Your Six).

http://www.nj7p.org/index.html

What is also interesting is the number of Friend or Foe radio transmitters from 1942. Makes me wonder how many aircraft had this fitted also.

BigKahuna_GS
04-03-2004, 12:40 PM
S!

You guys are awsome thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

None of those web sites lists the radar range of the tail warning system behind the aircraft
though.

Still looking.

___________



CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson : It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

Ki_Rin
04-03-2004, 03:32 PM
who cares about rear radar? how a 38 with NO torque?...or STABLE gunnery....or maybe a little less E bleed in zoom climbs?...seems to me we need some ships to perform correctly, or at least as close to RL data will allow, THEN worry about silly RW radar sheesh!

RAF-Blackace
04-03-2004, 04:52 PM
S!

Not true, the two codes are the radio set and the antennae. The antennae is what dictates the range, just goto the database and look up the antennae and it will give the effective range.

Ki_Rin.

Take your RL arguments elsewhere, this is an edjucational thread about radio, if you think for one minute that any sim will replicate real life figures your sadly mistaken. Get near yes, but whiners like you will always moan about something.

BigKahuna_GS
04-04-2004, 08:48 AM
S!


The antennae is what dictates the range, just goto the database and look up the antennae and it will give the effective range.
______________


Rgr, will do Thanks. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


_______________



CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson : It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

BigKahuna_GS
04-06-2004, 10:52 AM
S!

Thanks for all the links guys!

I emailed all the information to Oleg and he said he will make the airborne tail warning radar system operational on the P38.


_______________



CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson : It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

Kurfurst__
04-06-2004, 11:06 AM
Could this radar tell friend from foe via IFF identification, or it just alarmed for every object behind the plane ? In latter case, I think it was pretty darn useless... but even then, an interesting add-on, and a nice toy to play with !

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/dasboot.jpg
"Final shot. Prepeare to fire! Target speed,0. *Check!* Range, 650 meters. *Check!* Depth: 4 meters. Torpedo speed: three-zero. Aiming point..forward of after mast. Tube I., ready? *Tube I. ready!* Tube I.... *Tube I.* Fire! *Fire. Torpedo running!*


Our Messer which art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy moment come. Thy will be done in Earth, as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily Abschuss.
And forgive us our Errors, as We forgive Your Flaws against us. And lead us not into Temptation to dogfight, but deliver us from Those Below :
For thine are The Altitude, and The Climbrate, and the MK 108, forever and ever.
Amen.

BigKahuna_GS
04-06-2004, 11:21 AM
S!


Yes all these fighters had airborne radar & IFF. Much more advanced than the germans or japanese had at the time. P51 Mustang, P-38L, P-47D, P-61, P-63, P-82D in the later stages of the war.


_________________


I did not realize just how many aircraft had this radar feature. They also had IFF.



RT-34/APS-13 Tail Warning Radar (USA)



The RT-34/APS-13 is a low power UHF tail warning radar transmitter/receiver which was used in Allied aeroplanes such as the P51 Mustang and also the P-38L, P-47D, P-61, P-63, P-82D in the later stages of the war.

The equipment operates at 420 MHz with a receiver IF of 30 MHz and is powered by an internal rotary generator which is supplied from the aircraft 27V dc system.

The electro-mechanical construction is all aluminium, and the equipment uses all miniature glass valves except for the voltage stabiliser which is a VR105V (0C3). The PA is two 6J6s.



CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson : It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

p1ngu666
04-06-2004, 12:26 PM
whats a p81D ?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

JaBo_HH--Gotcha
04-06-2004, 11:45 PM
may we have a radar for the nightfinghting variant of the BF110 too ?

How to make it ?
Enable Icons in a forward arc when you're in the gunners position and look forward.
Please http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/gotcha.jpg

VW-IceFire
06-09-2004, 07:04 AM
Nightfighting radars was another matter. I believe the tail warning radar was just a proximity indicator. If the reading produced a certain result there was a bell that rang. Not like on the P-61 with a radar operator.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

BBB_Hyperion
06-09-2004, 10:08 AM
IFF System was on all late Planes with newer generation of radios (Not sure if the vvs used such a system cause of the constant lacking of good radio equipment mostly us lend&lease).

Concept is even used today.

Sender requests a reply on a special frequency answer is send on correct backfrequency where the radio waits for the answer.

This Frequencies shifted almost every day.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Yes all these fighters had airborne radar & IFF. Much more advanced than the germans or japanese had at the time. P51 Mustang, P-38L, P-47D, P-61, P-63, P-82D in the later stages of the war.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In which way advanced ?

This tail warning radars were pretty good to guide nightfighters where to shoot at. And that without backfire cant be that good in detecting planes coming close. I estimate the radar radius at about 30 degrees max if not smaller. When you have data on the Detection Angle post it would be intresting to know.

APS-13 L-Band Fighter Tail Warning, 800 Yds (SCR-718) RCA

Here some ranges from radars on nightfighters.

Active
FuG 202 Lichtenstein BC 490 MHz 1.5 kW Range 200 m - 3.5 km
FuG 212 Lichtenstein C1 420-480 MHz 2.5 kW Range 300 m - 4 km
FuG 220 Lichtenstein SN2 73 82 91 37,5 118 MHz 2,5 kW Range 300 m -4 km
FuG 240 Berlin 3250 - 3330 MHz Searchangle 55? Range 300 m - 5 km
FuG 217 Neptun 158 - 187 MHz Searchangle 120? Range 120 m - 5 km
Passive
FuG 227 Flensburg 80 - 230 MHz Range 100 km
FuG 350 Z Naxos Z 2500-3750 MHz Range 50 km
Ship detection Radar
FuG Rostock 1 km - 80 km
FuG 200 Hohentwiel 1 km - 80 km

Regards,
Hyperion

Cossack13
06-09-2004, 12:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ki_Rin:
...THEN worry about silly RW radar sheesh!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Development is not an either/or proposition.

http://www.tolwyn.com/~cossack/Coss110Sig.gif

609IAP_Recon
06-10-2004, 06:04 PM
"who cares about rear radar? how a 38 with NO torque?...or STABLE gunnery....or maybe a little less E bleed in zoom climbs?...seems to me we need some ships to perform correctly, or at least as close to RL data will allow, THEN worry about silly RW radar sheesh!"

Maybe when you try flying without externals you'll understand, you know what I mean?

Good post BK, this is interesting information, I was not aware of - could make a big difference in the gameplay

Salute!

IV/JG51_Recon

http://www.forgottenskies.com/jg51sig2.jpg

BBB_Hyperion
06-11-2004, 02:10 AM
I fly most of the time without externals .)

I really doubt that this rear radar would have any impact on the gameplay. We already have ai planes with rearradar the effect for humans i think will be the same .)

Regards,
Hyperion

VOL_Hans
06-14-2004, 03:25 PM
I think that tail warning radar should be an option for the pilot.

But as many found it annoying with constant alarms whenever anything solid was behind the tail and turned it off, oleg should make sure that it is annoying to the pilot as well.

Lots of loud, blairing, annoying noise.

That might make them use the "Off" switch a bit more like a real pilot.

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg

ivankuturkokoff
06-14-2004, 04:57 PM
Kurfurst asked :

"Could this radar tell friend from foe via IFF identification, or it just alarmed for every object behind the plane ? In latter case, I think it was pretty darn useless... but even then, an interesting add-on, and a nice toy to play with !"

I dont think this unit could differentiate between friend or foe it was not an Airborne IFF interogator..

From the "The Mighty Eight manual"
A tail warning search radar for fighter and reconnaissance aiecrft ,AN/APS-13 gave visual and audible warning to the pilot of the approach of another aircraft from the rear within some 4 miles*. Trial installtions were made in Auumn 1944 on reconnaissance aircraft. A fughter installtion programme entailing antennas placed on each side of the fin commenced in March 1945 with 355th,4th and 361st Groups in that order. ...AN/APS-13 was similar to the British tail warning device called Monica and in RAF use was known as Monica MKVII
---------------

In a related issue however the RAF introduced Radar contol rear turret gunnery in the lancaster towards the end of the war. In then became an issue if the guns laid on your mate or a night fighter. To prevent mishaps small transmitters were placed on the Bomb aimers plexiglas dome to ID themselves. I havent got the inner workings of this but it was an active system, not one based on interogation. I think it worked on signal strength, comparison if the the return was so strong it was rejeced by the gun laying radar. These can be seen as the 2 small circles on some bomb aimers dome.

* The 4 miles quoted from this source seems an awful long way to me considering dedicated AI radars of the time would be struggling to achieve this performance.

Gibbage1
06-14-2004, 06:09 PM
If I remember (I will double check when I get home) the tail radar had a range of 45 degrees up, and 30 down, and 30 degrees on each side of the aircraft with a range of about 300M.

The problem with it is it could NOT tell friend from foe. If your wingman got a little close in formation, it would go off. At only 300M, it did not give you much of a warning so you did not have time to check if it was fake or not. You had to react on it. A lot of pilot turned it off.

"Most P-39's were sent to the Russians - so I guess that was an American secret weapon against our Russian allies."

Stan Wood, P-38 pilot who also flew the P-39.

JG77_Tintin
06-15-2004, 03:48 AM
Regardless of radar, would love to hear the gunner in my two seaters calling out the clock direction of an attacking fighter, so I can break more effectively and give him/her a cleaner field of fire.

BBB_Hyperion
06-15-2004, 05:59 AM
Any info on power consumption ? Battery problems ?

Any real info on the angle ?

1 mil = 0.05625?
1? = 17.77 Mils

1 yards = 0.9144 meters

800 yards range 731,52 m seems more realistic but thats from british version. Was there a real difference between these 2 systems ?

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

BigKahuna_GS
06-16-2004, 03:11 AM
S!


__________________________________________________ _______________________
Gib---The problem with it is it could NOT tell friend from foe. If your wingman got a little close in formation, it would go off. At only 300M, it did not give you much of a warning so you did not have time to check if it was fake or not. You had to react on it. A lot of pilot turned it off.
__________________________________________________ _______________________


Rgr that. What I read was that for pratical use the radar was turned on by the last member of a flight or a seperated P38 flying solo. I heard a US pilot descrbe a story he heard from a german ace:

All the P38s were loaded out with bombs flying single file appearently having difficulty finding the target to roll in on. The german fighter closed in and 1 by 1 shot down all 4 P38 without the one pilot knowing what was happening.

While the tail radar was not fool proof and "keeping the head on a swivel" would have been more advisable---it might of saved some lives here.


_____

__________________________________________________ ________________________
JG77_Tintin ------would love to hear the gunner in my two seaters calling out the clock direction of an attacking fighter, so I can break more effectively and give him/her a cleaner field of fire.
__________________________________________________ ________________________


great suggestion, i would like to see this too !

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"