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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 06:15 AM
The A series are trimmed extremely nose heavy "from the manufacturer". Start QMB at 1000m with Fw 190A-9 on 100% throttle: until it levels out and starts climbing, it loses 600m (!!!!) altitude. It doesnâ´t happen with P-47 or IL-2 with full bombload. But, F-8 or D-9 looses barely 150m and climbs up. They are trimmed really neutral.
With 15-20 cliks of the trim "nose up", the plane stalls much less, bleeds much less E and is able to do a loop almost in "IL-2 take-off flaps" style at 250kph. The elevator response in higher speeds is much better also. I think the countering the nose-heavy trim with the stick causes that stall and E bleed, plane doesnâ´t climb at all and is almost unflyable. I tested it only offline but it seemed to work great. Just give 15-20 cliks of the trim up.


-------------

"The 190, in my hands at least, turns like a brick with a parachute behind it, but I don't mind; elevator gets stuck in cement at speeds as low as 550kph, but I don't mind; I can't see for crap out the pit, but I don't mind; touchy as hell and hard to aim with, but I don't mind; no, none of these things p!ss me off. What really gets me is that the zoom climb it was supposedly famous for, the same climb it supposedly exploited to be able to "stay and fight" with the much tighter turning spitfires, just doesn't exist. It's not like it's zoom climb doesn't make it one of the best in FB as it should be, it's that the way it's currently modelled it's one of the WORST!

Flying with proper tactics and energy is a BS argument. Even an IL-2 with 1000m altitude advantage is deadly, in fact, it's probably deadlier than a 190 with the same advantage! Remind me again which one was the fighter?!"

(with the courtesy of Jetbuff /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

Message Edited on 06/18/0301:34PM by jurinko

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 06:15 AM
The A series are trimmed extremely nose heavy "from the manufacturer". Start QMB at 1000m with Fw 190A-9 on 100% throttle: until it levels out and starts climbing, it loses 600m (!!!!) altitude. It doesnâ´t happen with P-47 or IL-2 with full bombload. But, F-8 or D-9 looses barely 150m and climbs up. They are trimmed really neutral.
With 15-20 cliks of the trim "nose up", the plane stalls much less, bleeds much less E and is able to do a loop almost in "IL-2 take-off flaps" style at 250kph. The elevator response in higher speeds is much better also. I think the countering the nose-heavy trim with the stick causes that stall and E bleed, plane doesnâ´t climb at all and is almost unflyable. I tested it only offline but it seemed to work great. Just give 15-20 cliks of the trim up.


-------------

"The 190, in my hands at least, turns like a brick with a parachute behind it, but I don't mind; elevator gets stuck in cement at speeds as low as 550kph, but I don't mind; I can't see for crap out the pit, but I don't mind; touchy as hell and hard to aim with, but I don't mind; no, none of these things p!ss me off. What really gets me is that the zoom climb it was supposedly famous for, the same climb it supposedly exploited to be able to "stay and fight" with the much tighter turning spitfires, just doesn't exist. It's not like it's zoom climb doesn't make it one of the best in FB as it should be, it's that the way it's currently modelled it's one of the WORST!

Flying with proper tactics and energy is a BS argument. Even an IL-2 with 1000m altitude advantage is deadly, in fact, it's probably deadlier than a 190 with the same advantage! Remind me again which one was the fighter?!"

(with the courtesy of Jetbuff /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

Message Edited on 06/18/0301:34PM by jurinko

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 06:30 AM
That just shows something about the trim if hold the stick back steady doesn't have the same effect as using trim. There is something too slippery about trim in these sims, it is the real reason behind the so called bat turns. They still can be done, can't they?


Neal

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 08:44 AM
I have noticed that. the FW190A is the only plane I trim (6 keystrokes) as sson as I get in the cockpit. I add some more as altitude increases.

Some planes you need to trim down at the start, as they go nose high all the time (laGG0 or some have sudden nose up/down depending on speed (like the I-16 or B-239), sothey require more trim adjustments. The FW190A flies straigh with 4-5 keystrokes up of trim.

<img src=http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/fb_falco.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:14 AM
isnt the elevator authority all messed up at high speeds on the FW 190??

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:56 AM
Hi all,

Jurinko, you are right! I tested it minutes ago and i could see that the climb-rate is much more better. I can handle the FW now a little bit like a Me 109.

Many thanks for this tip!


Gustl

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:38 AM
Doesn't work here. Maybe you couldn't get all out of it without trim /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . Turns tighter at high speeds, but that's what RBJ told us all the time, no secret /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif . At the same time it can'T even fly level anymore at high speeds because it pulls up. It's no solution. You just move the "elevator frame" by trimming. Try full up trim and then dive and try to hold the plane. Either you pull up or have to roll all the time. That's because the more authority you got to "up", the less you got to "down". But down is also important. I usually use trim for better aiming as sticks are less sensitive in the center (it's programmed this was in Il-2/FB), so it's easier to do small corrections. So I do 10 clicks DOWN above 450km/h which is the "green" speed of this plane anyway. That gives me even less up elevator so I have a reason to whine about it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif . The only worse plane is the BI-1 thing. LaGGs for example are also bad, but not worse than FW.


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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:40 AM
Edit error.... so I need a new post just for the PS:

Pls don't lock this one. It's not about visibility or cockpit which is Oleg's thread for.


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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 11:51 AM
WWMaxGunz wrote:
- That just shows something about the trim if hold the
- stick back steady doesn't have the same effect as
- using trim.

Maybe the difference is that some planes use the whole elevator area as a trim and some only the trim tabs... but yes, the stick pulled backwards and the plane trimmed back is different. In case of Fw the strongly trimmed a/c flies much smoother.

-------------

"The 190, in my hands at least, turns like a brick with a parachute behind it, but I don't mind; elevator gets stuck in cement at speeds as low as 550kph, but I don't mind; I can't see for crap out the pit, but I don't mind; touchy as hell and hard to aim with, but I don't mind; no, none of these things p!ss me off. What really gets me is that the zoom climb it was supposedly famous for, the same climb it supposedly exploited to be able to "stay and fight" with the much tighter turning spitfires, just doesn't exist. It's not like it's zoom climb doesn't make it one of the best in FB as it should be, it's that the way it's currently modelled it's one of the WORST!

Flying with proper tactics and energy is a BS argument. Even an IL-2 with 1000m altitude advantage is deadly, in fact, it's probably deadlier than a 190 with the same advantage! Remind me again which one was the fighter?!"

(with the courtesy of Jetbuff /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:47 PM
Willey, ich hab jetz kein Wort von dem verstanden was du aussagen wolltest http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Could you please use a simpler englisch? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

THX


Gustl

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:15 PM
Willey wrote:
- But down is also important. I usually use
- trim for better aiming as sticks are less sensitive
- in the center (it's programmed this was in Il-2/FB),

That is easily fixed. The "programming" you mention is only the stick sensitivity settings. Try setting the pitch axis sliders to all 100's and then take an hour at least to get used to the way it handles. It will be much more touchy but that means much more responsive and able to get more power on the stick so elevator quickly. Bet you can stall! Also with sliders all set high the difference from trim is much less since now your control inputs are not interpreted as weak near center. Strength applied to stick is what the sliders are all about.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:22 PM
another fw190 treat, lock it snoopy

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:46 PM
Aztek_Eagle.. Lock yourself up ..

Jurinko, everywhere I read FW190 didint need trim at all. Because it was designed well enought.

If its trimmed nose heavy in FB from the beginning, it isnt right. Havent tested this yet, frankly havent gamed FB in a month now.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:58 PM
alarmer wrote:
- Aztek_Eagle.. Lock yourself up ..
-
- Jurinko, everywhere I read FW190 didnâ´t need trim at
- all. Because it was designed well enought.
-
- If its trimmed nose heavy in FB from the beginning,
- it isnt right.

Sure, thatâ´s why I named that thread "whatâ´s WRONG with Fw". Thatâ´s just a desperate measure to do that brick flyable /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

-------------

"The picture repeats itself when operations, which began with great intent and local successes, degenerated into senseless, wild hammering at fixed front-line positions once they encounter initial heavy losses and unforeseen situations. This incomprehensible phenomenon appears again and again. But, even in extremis, the Russian is never logical; he falls back on his natural instinct, and the nature of the Russian is to use mass, steamroller tactics, and adherence to given objectives without regard to changing situations."

German 9th Army report after repulsing the Soviet offensive "Mars" in Rzhev bulge, December 1942.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:07 PM
Hmm this does sound weird. Looks like I gotta blow the dust from FB package and install this one again /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I mean it doesnt make sense that FW190 would be trimmed nose heavy from the beginning. Arent all planes in FB trimmed neutral from the start.

Somehow it just sounds ridicilous that FB would use a system where from beginning every plane had some trim level. All others would have rather neutral trim and FW190 a nose heavy trim just so that it would live up to its "no trimming need" legend if you can say it like that.

Any beta testers out there who would know how the trimming is modelled in FB.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:28 PM
a plane which loses 600m alt from level flight at 300kph until it levels out is 1) naturally trimmed nose-heavy, or 2) carries the RAFâ´s "Grand Slam" 7t bomb.

I think there is a mistake in A series in that. Compare the F-8 (basically A-5 without outer guns and + bomb racks) which levels after diving less than 150m. Standard A-5 dives >400m, A-9 600m.

-------------

"The picture repeats itself when operations, which began with great intent and local successes, degenerated into senseless, wild hammering at fixed front-line positions once they encounter initial heavy losses and unforeseen situations. This incomprehensible phenomenon appears again and again. But, even in extremis, the Russian is never logical; he falls back on his natural instinct, and the nature of the Russian is to use mass, steamroller tactics, and adherence to given objectives without regard to changing situations."

German 9th Army report after repulsing the Soviet offensive "Mars" in Rzhev bulge, December 1942.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:57 PM
I see your point. Guess no point asking for a track , i think I can manage this one myself /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ZG77_Nagual
06-18-2003, 03:16 PM
I was thinking - since according to Oleg only the IL2 had more information going into the modeling than the 190 - maybe it is modeled accurately re elevator authority - and the other planes are less so, relatively speaking.
Anyway - I was on my server in the a5 last night. I was flying against almost entirely yak3s and la7s and the only problem I really seem to have is rate of climb in that bird. She still handles very much the same as IL2 - flaps and all that. Of course I didn't do terribly well - it was usually 2 vs 1 and I seemed to be the only one flying cockpit on.. but it sure is fun to fly. The later 190s are much less fun for dogfighting.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 03:18 PM
WWMaxGunz wrote:
- That is easily fixed. The "programming" you mention
- is only the stick sensitivity settings. Try setting
- the pitch axis sliders to all 100's and then take an
- hour at least to get used to the way it handles. It
- will be much more touchy but that means much more
- responsive and able to get more power on the stick
- so elevator quickly. Bet you can stall! Also with
- sliders all set high the difference from trim is
- much less since now your control inputs are not
- interpreted as weak near center. Strength applied
- to stick is what the sliders are all about.

I know that. But "touchy" is no expression for what happens there. Aiming is impossible. 10 20 30 etc is already very touchy. Too bad they moddeled stick input so crappy rough. You'll see that when banking the plane. It's everything else than smooth, whatever the sticksettings are. There are 40-60 "notches" max on a whole axis. Shame on the one who programmed it. It's most obvious when using throttle sliders. Even in M$ Dos software could distinguish 512 positions one one axis (-254 to 255). I had a precision pro first when using warbirds 2.7x. Then I bought precision 2 and noticed it's higher precision over the first one. I could input ~twice as smooth. But FB is rougher than that WB with the old stick.

Another reason why I trim downwards is the stick force - that's the real reason.

190 loses so much alt because it's so heavy... sometimes I also think, because it's german. 109s aren't much better. They have a very high AoA already in level flight. Try level stabilizer. You'll need some 500+km/h not to sink. But other planes climb already slightly at 300km/h, where the FW has -5m/s climb in LEVEL attitude. That pulls her down. I think the P-47 isn't as bad as the 190...


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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 03:26 PM
Willey wrote:
-
- 190 loses so much alt because it's so heavy...
- sometimes I also think, because it's german. 109s
- aren't much better. They have a very high AoA
- already in level flight. Try level stabilizer.
- You'll need some 500+km/h not to sink. But other
- planes climb already slightly at 300km/h, where the
- FW has -5m/s climb in LEVEL attitude. That pulls her
- down. I think the P-47 isn't as bad as the 190...
-

yep thats it. It simply wants to fall down. but when trimmed like hell, the A series start to be like the F-8. The A4 is terrible even so. I donâ´t understand how British could say war-weary Jabo A4 was equal to Spit IX, with much better roll, agility and dive and a bit worse at turn and high-alt climbrate.

-------------

"The picture repeats itself when operations, which began with great intent and local successes, degenerated into senseless, wild hammering at fixed front-line positions once they encounter initial heavy losses and unforeseen situations. This incomprehensible phenomenon appears again and again. But, even in extremis, the Russian is never logical; he falls back on his natural instinct, and the nature of the Russian is to use mass, steamroller tactics, and adherence to given objectives without regard to changing situations."

German 9th Army report after repulsing the Soviet offensive "Mars" in Rzhev bulge, December 1942.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 05:12 PM
Calling Snoopy we need some clean up pesonel

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 05:15 PM
Bref B.. Oleg coupe le Rail en 2 meme si c'est pas dans ta logique ... et ainsi M... and the K ....
http://airstrip.fr/TEMP/jvvv.jpg
http://airstrip.free.fr/TEMP/jvvv.jpg

http://ibelgique.ifrance.com/jabo/FWREDNUAGE.jpg

Cdt Groupe Jabo http://membres.lycos.fr/jabos/STARTT.HTM


Message Edited on 06/18/0304:24PM by Jabo_Walter

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 07:56 PM
Dunno how it will prove in a long run but first impression YOWZAA!!!

"degustibus non disputandum"

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:01 PM
yeah polskie orly rulezz /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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"The picture repeats itself when operations, which began with great intent and local successes, degenerated into senseless, wild hammering at fixed front-line positions once they encounter initial heavy losses and unforeseen situations. This incomprehensible phenomenon appears again and again. But, even in extremis, the Russian is never logical; he falls back on his natural instinct, and the nature of the Russian is to use mass, steamroller tactics, and adherence to given objectives without regard to changing situations."

German 9th Army report after repulsing the Soviet offensive "Mars" in Rzhev bulge, December 1942.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:09 PM
Duh!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"degustibus non disputandum"

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<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:28 PM
in my eyes , this is much more important , as the view of the FW 190 .
a BABE , my arguments are not bad /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
can somebody agree with my proofs ?

http://t-music.t-online.de/zone/musi/news/hip-/pi/pi-ashanti-fhm-3-deadline-030711,property=Grossbild.jpg


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:29 PM
hehehe u have my vote for the Babe /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 10:24 AM
Willey wrote:
-
- I know that. But "touchy" is no expression for what
- happens there. Aiming is impossible. 10 20 30 etc is
- already very touchy. Too bad they moddeled stick
- input so crappy rough.

I dunno man, I had them at all 100's for IL2 and might have for FB but I got bummed about the FM's real quick and decided to wait for the patch and hope a whole lot. I was able to aim quite well in IL2 with elevator at all 100's. It was amazing at how much nose bob was eliminated as well as bleed in turns and maneuvers, showing me that many cried over FM problems were really control issues as I had posted about off and on.

I should mention that my stick is a Logitech Wingman 3D, so nothing special... but I do have a Deadzone of 1 and the Filter set a good ways to the right to smooth things out. The Filter though is really a big need to have.

When the plane flies right, it don't take long to aim and shoot. You just get the nose crossing the target line slowly and fire at the right time or take time lining up after forcing the target to bleed off E till he can't turn fast. Alternate is to come booming in hard and let him have a full second, the high speed puts backforce on the stick so the extra strength of high sliders is offset and not so heavy. ;^P

The big plus is in better E handling and you have quicker elevator response especially at high speed. You just have to learn to be gentle with the stick and not like a butter churn or flying Red Baron or a sim like that! ;^) Fly like you are flying EAW with 90% sensitivity or better and don't want to spin, then elevator sliders at 100 (but not roll!) is not such a challenge at all. If EAW is not enough, try MA without stalling and spinning because there you will learn extra fine control of the joystick!


Neal