PDA

View Full Version : What's the best way to crack il-2 Sturmoviks? Methods?



Chainsawofdoom
06-16-2004, 09:44 PM
Good evening, Gentlemen.

Tell me, if you're flying for the Luftwaffe and/or the BF-109, what is the best way (if ANY????) to break up, smash, crack, or otherwise send those darned CONCRETE flying BRICKS known as IL-2 Sturmoviks into a flaming death spiral?

I'm in the later stages of the Mittegrupe campaign, and I'm starting to encounter many, many Sturmoviks. These things are tough as nails, my MG rounds only bounce off, and I have to get so close to hit them with my evil 30mm cannon (I'm flying the G-10) that the tail gunner almost always hits me. It seems as if one single shot from that guy either splatters my windshield with oil and destroys my engine, or kills me outright. These planes seem to have crack shots for tailgunners.

I've tried diving in on 'em from great heights and at high speed - the tail gunner always gets me.

I've tried staying very low underneath 'em and getting them from underneath, where the tail gunner can't get me. But they fly in such a formation that their wingman's tail gunner usually gets me instead...

I've tried shooting at the oil cooler from far out, and have met with some success. VERY tricky to do, though.

I've even studied the plane and figured that as the tailgunner is completely vulnerable and unshielded in any way, maybe I could lightly spray at the rear cockpit area from a long way out with my machine guns, kill the tailgunner, and then close in to smash the thing with my cannon. No dice. The tail deflects my MG fire most of the time.

It seems as if deflection shooting is the key, but again - VERY tricky. Have you come up with anything better? If so, let's hear it!

Chainsawofdoom
06-16-2004, 09:44 PM
Good evening, Gentlemen.

Tell me, if you're flying for the Luftwaffe and/or the BF-109, what is the best way (if ANY????) to break up, smash, crack, or otherwise send those darned CONCRETE flying BRICKS known as IL-2 Sturmoviks into a flaming death spiral?

I'm in the later stages of the Mittegrupe campaign, and I'm starting to encounter many, many Sturmoviks. These things are tough as nails, my MG rounds only bounce off, and I have to get so close to hit them with my evil 30mm cannon (I'm flying the G-10) that the tail gunner almost always hits me. It seems as if one single shot from that guy either splatters my windshield with oil and destroys my engine, or kills me outright. These planes seem to have crack shots for tailgunners.

I've tried diving in on 'em from great heights and at high speed - the tail gunner always gets me.

I've tried staying very low underneath 'em and getting them from underneath, where the tail gunner can't get me. But they fly in such a formation that their wingman's tail gunner usually gets me instead...

I've tried shooting at the oil cooler from far out, and have met with some success. VERY tricky to do, though.

I've even studied the plane and figured that as the tailgunner is completely vulnerable and unshielded in any way, maybe I could lightly spray at the rear cockpit area from a long way out with my machine guns, kill the tailgunner, and then close in to smash the thing with my cannon. No dice. The tail deflects my MG fire most of the time.

It seems as if deflection shooting is the key, but again - VERY tricky. Have you come up with anything better? If so, let's hear it!

AdmiralWarlord
06-16-2004, 09:47 PM
I've noticed a lot of tailgunners seem to have incredible aim. You know - if all else fails - you can always ram them!

georgeo76
06-16-2004, 10:09 PM
109s and IL2s are like oil and water. Avoiding the gunner by attacking from below is difficult because of the extremely thick armor. Attacking from high six is best left to FWs. If your forced to attack, try an up and under, aiming for the wings. That's the easiest way, but IL2 formations can still cover their buddies low six. High-side attacks are good for avoiding the rear gunner, but snap shots are largely useless against these beasts. Head-ons work reasonably well, but you'll get plastered if the IL2 pilot is worth his salt (AI pilots often ignore your approach, but human pilots will grease you every time).

The best tactic against the IL2 (or any bomber for that matter) is the overhead attack. Come in @ at a very steep dive (70 degrees @ least) and aim for the fuselage between the wings. This tactic requires the most patience (long set-up) but if you do it right, you'll see IL2s folding like Zeros when they take damage at this most vulnerable area.

Athosd
06-16-2004, 10:12 PM
The tail gunner is a bit hard to kill so dueling with him is not advisable.

When attacking a formation of IL2s from below I always go for the leader. His cover comes from the wingmen's forward armament which won't be able to bear if you zoom through fast enough. This method removes the threat of all those tailguns.

Alternatively, I find a high speed plunging attack from the rear quarter (4 or 8 o'clock) gives me a shot at the pilot/engine area whilst also making things difficult for the gunner.

Given the chance those guys will always hit you - IRL they were very effective at warding off fighters, so I don't mind.

Salute

Athos

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

Chainsawofdoom
06-16-2004, 10:46 PM
In real life, the Sturmovik's real weakness was the vulnerable oil cooler. It seems that only one or two well-placed rounds through it would either leak out all of the oil and seize the engine or it would ignite, causing a flaming death. I have yet to produce either example.

Have you? Is the vulnerable oil cooler accurately modeled in this sim? I've shot tons of bullets straight into what I could swear was the oil cooler area, and nothing happened. Am I doing something wrong?

Menthol_moose
06-16-2004, 10:50 PM
You can puncture the oil cooler and get mild smoke comming out, but that isnt going to stop the plane in a hurry.The il2 will just carry on and get even more angry http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

I like flying the IL2 alot, and the hard pilots are the one that slowly chip away at you with high speed passes, that you cant fire back at .

Korolov
06-16-2004, 10:53 PM
The wings are the weakest part (along with the tail) of the plane. You can take them out quickly by placing a good burst of 20mm or 30mm into the wings. Note that I'm not talking about the wing root, but the outer wooden wing panels.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

WTE_Galway
06-16-2004, 10:58 PM
Most Important - the worst place to shoot an Il2 is directly on its six pointing at the tail as that is wear the serious armor plate is located (as well as the most dangerous spot to be when facing the tail gunner)

the natural tendency everyone has is to slot in behind your target on its six "stock car" fashion but you have to train yourself to stop doing it

hitting the oil coller from slightly below will start it smoking and this will slow the IL2 a touch (offline if its in formation you will see it gradually drop behind)

EVENTUALLY the engine will fail and offline you will get a kill for it but online it doesnt fail soon enough to help you


pounding a wing root will eventually work but its tricky with an active gunner

high deflection shots are good but if you are like me those are more pot luck than a science when i get a kill that way my usually reaction is"gaddamn look at that"

ptthome
06-16-2004, 11:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chainsawofdoom:

Tell me, if you're flying for the Luftwaffe and/or the BF-109, what is the best way (if ANY????) to break up, smash, crack, or otherwise send those darned CONCRETE flying BRICKS known as IL-2 Sturmoviks into a flaming death spiral?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://perso.club-internet.fr/ptthome/vulogo3.JPG

Hoarmurath
06-17-2004, 12:01 AM
Aim for the wings.... forget the cooler, don't work.

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/)

ptthome
06-17-2004, 12:01 AM
Park on the tarmac, wait 10 minutes and pray that I crash before I get to your airbase.

http://perso.club-internet.fr/ptthome/vulogo3.JPG

Mitlov47
06-17-2004, 01:39 AM
Get high above them and to the side, dive down, so your heading is 90 degrees different from theirs and you're in an extremely steep dive, and blast the top of their wing (not wing root) as you pass by. Then climb up to the other side and try again. You need to be a good climber and a lot faster than your target to do this, but that shouldn't be a problem with a G-10 vs Sturmoviks.

I've used this tactic with a Dora against four-engine bombers, and it's the only way I can stay alive. It takes a long time to set up each pass because you need to get HIGH above them, but in the end it keeps you alive.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/387_1087453960_dorasigj3.jpg

jurinko
06-17-2004, 01:50 AM
LW pilots were aware that the firepower of standard 109 was not enough for IL-2. The used 109s with gunpods against them, being covered by 1-cannon versions. The arrival of Fw 190 solved it partially..

---------------------
Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

[This message was edited by jurinko on Thu June 17 2004 at 01:00 AM.]

foxhound31
06-17-2004, 03:56 AM
Well last night....I flew a few missions in arcade mode against IL2s in an F2. That thing was a flying pin cushion, you could barely see parts of the plane because of the arrows before it finally dropped a wing and augered in!! Only another 30 missions or so before I get gun pods!

Asus A7N8X-X, Barton 2500+, 786mb DDR333, XP Home, Ti4800SE with nvidia 45.xx drivers, SB 5.1.

Monson74
06-17-2004, 04:24 AM
11, 12 or 1 o'clock is my approach & slightly below - I go for the pilot but it's hard.

S!

Monson


"So when Diogenes perceived that he was greatly excited and quite keyed up in mind with expectancy, he toyed with him and pulled him about in the hope that somehow he might be moved from his pride and thirst for glory and be able to sober up a little. For he noticed that at one time he was delighted, and at another grieved at the same thing, and that his soul was as unsettled as the weather at the solstices when both rain and sunshine come from the very same source."

(Dio Chrysostom "Discourse" 4.77-78)

HART_dreyer
06-17-2004, 05:39 AM
Hello, I once wrote a "tutorial" on attacking certain bombers, including the IL2. Have plenty of tracks avaiable on how I do this as well.

Please read here:

http://www.r-syn.com/images/screenshots/il2/tracks/jg51/JG51_attacking_bombers.html

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)

[This message was edited by HART_dreyer on Thu June 17 2004 at 05:01 AM.]

DeBaer.534
06-17-2004, 05:48 AM
well, im most succesfull in shooting their tailplane off, by sneaking up faster and lower than theyre and then climb up so you get directly behind their six and then fire. works even with only the mg131s (most likely) for me.
i dont think theyre too hard to shoot down. but then, i might just be lucky.

Tully__
06-17-2004, 07:17 AM
Unless things have changed in recent patches, the oil cooler does work (believe me, I've flown IL2's a lot) but not many ppl try to hit it and succeed. Once hit, the performance drops off rapidly and very few make it home.

Of course it affects AI a lot less than human pilots, but c'est la vie in computer games http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

=================================================


http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/sig.jpg

IL2 Forums Moderator
Forum Terms of Use (http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm)
Tully's X-45 profile (SST drivers) (http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/fb.zip)

Salut
Tully

DONB3397
06-17-2004, 07:39 AM
This may have been mentioned earlier, but Heinz Bar, the great LW ace, specialized in IL2's by getting under the a/c and hitting the cooler when he was flying 190s.

Bar had 221 kills by the end of the war. Many were Sturmoviks.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v243/DONB3397/SpitSig01b.jpg
"And now I see with eye serene/The very pulse of the machine;
A being breathing thoughtful breath,/A Traveller between life and death." -- Wordsworth

horseback
06-17-2004, 08:05 AM
I've found that the oil cooler method works fine, if you aren't real anal about getting the credit for the kill. It takes an unreasonably long time for the Il-2 to go down after an oil cooler hit, and in the meantime, your (semi-invulnerable) AI wingmen will peck away and steal most of your kills.

As for the wings, aim for the junction of the aileron and the flaps-that seems to be the weak spot there, altho I have a harder time hitting that than the cooler, which can be disabled with MG fire (conserving ammo & increasing my chances of multiple kills).

Either way, you have to keep moving, or the rear gunners are gonna get you.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Tully__
06-17-2004, 08:40 AM
An additional note about oil coolers. It is NOT an instant kill. Get a bit of smoke happening and let it be, it WILL go down. It may not explode on impact and take 5-15 minutes (depending on altitude, speed etc..) but it will go down.

=================================================


http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/sig.jpg

IL2 Forums Moderator
Forum Terms of Use (http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm)
Tully's X-45 profile (SST drivers) (http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/fb.zip)

Salut
Tully

HART_dreyer
06-17-2004, 08:44 AM
What exactly happends to it? Engine die out?

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)

Tully__
06-17-2004, 08:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HART_dreyer:
What exactly happends to it? Engine die out?

Regards,
dreyer
_http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oil cooler leaks all the oil out and the engine overheats and eventually seizes. Depending on how hot it was to begin with, it can take from 30 seconds to several minutes, then there's glide time before it finally hits the ground. What happens when it ditches depends on available terrain, other damage and pilot skill at off-field landings.

=================================================


http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/sig.jpg

IL2 Forums Moderator
Forum Terms of Use (http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm)
Tully's X-45 profile (SST drivers) (http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/fb.zip)

Salut
Tully

HART_dreyer
06-17-2004, 08:53 AM
So approx how long does it take for the oil to leak out?

Thanks,

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)

NorrisMcWhirter
06-17-2004, 09:50 AM
Hi,

With older Bfs, just shoot the oil cooler and let it go - it's coming down at some point in the near future - and you will probably struggle to do any decent damage to it unless you carry out a lot of slashing attacks to avoid the Zeitsev-spawned tail gunner. Failing that, try to shoot the cockpit area.

Post v2.01, LW 20mm and 30mm make short work of Il-2s so aim for the wing roots or cockpit.

Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam :
http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
www.chavscum.co.uk (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

Whatsmypassword
06-17-2004, 01:32 PM
The tale about vulnerable oil-cooler is still alive http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. I read in some memoirs of the Il-2 veterans that the diameter of the oil cooler was like a 50 kopecks coin (i think it is like a two pound British coin or just a little bit bigger than a US quarter). I think a good sniper could hit such a small target from 100 meters if the IL-2 is in static position on the ground http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Besides dont forget that an Il-2 pilot could close from inside that oil-cooler with a armoured screen in a couple of seconds. not surprizngly that after Il-2 started to be produced in a pilot + rear gunner variant since 1943 Il-2 incurred losses mainly because of AAA hits.

darkhorizon11
06-17-2004, 02:44 PM
You know a video game is good when you have to start a thread asking for advice about the same topic that bewildered the Germans in real life.

S.h.r.i.k.e
06-17-2004, 08:05 PM
Just out of curiosity, where is the oil cooler located on the IL-2? I gather it is on the underside somewhere...

S.h.r.i.k.e
06-17-2004, 08:05 PM
Where exactly is this oil cooler located on the IL-2. I gather it is on the underside somewhere...

HART_dreyer
06-17-2004, 08:41 PM
Shrike: http://www.r-syn.com/images/screenshots/il2/tracks/jg51/JG51_attacking_bombers.html

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)

Athosd
06-17-2004, 09:07 PM
I just made a series of attack runs using a G10 vs a 4 IL2 flight (Average AI, with ordnance load).
Head on (vs AI anyway) had the highest single pass success rate.
High speed belly racking attacks took a number of passes to get the kill (though requiring only a little time to setup each attack) - and depend on strikes to the wings/rear fuselage or oil cooler. The armour plate protecting the crew and engine spaces from below provides near total protection from MG and light cannon fire (Mk108 Minengeschoss will only scratch the paint).
As already noted by others the outer wing surfaces are very vulnerable - one 30mm HE will clip them easily. However this is not an easy shot to make.

Athos

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

Chainsawofdoom
06-17-2004, 11:05 PM
Hmmm.... The oil cooler...


I think that this needs to be addressed in the next patch. From my readings in the book, "The Blonde Knight of Germany", Erich Hartmann, the most successful fighter pilot ever, shot down many, many IL-2's my aiming at the oil cooler. He explains that in hitting the oil cooler, the aircraft would erupt into flames almost instantly.


Now then, let's look at the physics here:

Any piston engine (or any other type of engine, for that matter) relies heavily upon oil to lubricate its "floating" bearings. If you were to remove the oil drain plug from your car and let all of the oil escape, you would get no further than one mile before the lubrication ceased and the engine would sieze up.

Now, put into perspective a 1930's - '40's era engine, strained to the max with unrefined oil. A few shots through the oil cooler wouls punmcture it full of holes, and the pressures involved would bleed almost all of out in a matter of seconds. The engine would then overheat tremendously and in a matter of moments, then BANG! Lock up solid. No engine = no thrust.

No thrust = no couteracting drag. Earth approaches rapidly therein...

Ubisoft? Can you hear me? Mattox?

Whatsmypassword
06-17-2004, 11:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chainsawofdoom:
I think that this needs to be addressed in the next patch. From my readings in the book, "The Blonde Knight of Germany", Erich Hartmann, the most successful fighter pilot ever, shot down many, many IL-2's my aiming at the oil cooler.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some Lufwaffe enthusiast BB_Hyperyion counted here that Hartmann allegedly shot down 6-10 Il-2 as it follows from the first log book. It does not seem "many, many"

[This message was edited by Whatsmypassword on Thu June 17 2004 at 11:17 PM.]

Menthol_moose
06-18-2004, 12:03 AM
Maybe there is a difference between in game cooler loss and in real life.

Maybe the damage to the engire was far more quicker in real life and should be changed ?

It seems engines can run for long periods of time without oil pressure. In real life though, it would be a total failure in minutes.

nicli
06-18-2004, 01:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chainsawofdoom:
Good evening, Gentlemen.

Tell me, if you're flying for the Luftwaffe and/or the BF-109, what is the best way (if ANY????) to break up, smash, crack, or otherwise send those darned CONCRETE flying BRICKS known as IL-2 Sturmoviks into a flaming death spiral?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, it's quite difficult to do, but what I found to be very efficient when correctly executed was to use your speed and climb ability to get slightly higher and on a course more or less 90? that of the Il-2 (needs to be calculated so that when you are at firing range you are also in position for a deflection shooting), then dive from the side and spray the the shturmovik, aiming for the engine and the cockpit, then escape under or just above him.

With this tactic, it's very difficult to be in the right position to get a shot, but, if you do, the plane will almost always go down and neither the pilot nor the gunner will, at any time, be able to shoot your fighter...

x6BL_Brando
06-18-2004, 01:37 AM
Hitting an oil-cooler is not necessarily going to instantly wreck an engine, especially if its possible to isolate the cooler from within the cockpit. A lot depends on how quickly the damage is detected by the aircrew. The oil won't all drain away instantly, it takes several minutes even for an aero oil-pump to drain the sump or oiltank, and if the tap is turned off quickly enough then the engine may be nursed to carry on.

Dawg-of-death
06-18-2004, 01:44 AM
High 6 middle of wing cord at fusalage.....

BadM-F(Mongrel-Fighter)...... AKA Dawg-of-death
Former Member... Kelly Johnsons...Skunk Works

Werre_Fsck
06-18-2004, 02:03 AM
The cooler trick works fine, at least against the earlier models. Try it. Against the rear-gunnerless IL2's you can EASILY down 8 or so in an Emil, using MG17 only. Easiest from behind and slightly below, the cooler really sticks out from the fuselage.
Against later models speed up into ludicrous speed(tm) and dive under them, then pull up and pepper the underside - hopefully the cooler gets hit, and hopefully the rear gunner does not get you.
As said, it takes 5-15mins for them to go down, but they always go down.
I heard that in 2.01 the cockpit/fuel tank area is very vulnerable to cannon fire from side (~90degree deflection)

Mitlov47
06-18-2004, 02:12 AM
This won't help the original poster with his BF-109 question, but I've found the ULTIMATE way of killing Sturmoviks: BF-110 with a 37mm gunpod. It's more than accurate enough so that shakey-handed Mitlov can snipe Sturmoviks out of the sky from beyond 500m, and one hit is guaranteed to blow off a wing or a tail. It's brutally effective.

Does anyone know if this was widely used in real life? I was under the impression that the 37mm was meant for tanks, not aircraft, but this DOES work really well.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/387_1087453960_dorasigj3.jpg