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TAGERT.
08-28-2004, 12:27 PM
GOAL.. compare flight SIMULATION data to real world (NACA like) flight test data

Initally I didnt give DeviceLink much thought because of the following statement in the DeviceLink.txt file

In current version, this section is disabled while playing the game over the net.

Is that still the case? Back then I was more interested in doing a cockpit.. Now Im more interested in collecting and comparing data. And one would probally be doing that offline anyways.

Questions for current DeviceLink users

Q1) What program/util are you using to establish the UDP interface? And thus passing the DeviceLink parameters?

Q2) I noted the DeviceLink.txt file said..

Proposing using the protocol within a single computer, ar a local network

Correct me if Im wrong, but that tells me I could be playing the game on one pc and have seperate pc running the UPD program collecting data.. Assuming I have a LAN with two pc. Thus the pc running the game would not be taking a processing hit trying to run the game and the UPD program. Is that true?

Thanks for any and all info!

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TAGERT

TAGERT.
08-28-2004, 12:27 PM
GOAL.. compare flight SIMULATION data to real world (NACA like) flight test data

Initally I didnt give DeviceLink much thought because of the following statement in the DeviceLink.txt file

In current version, this section is disabled while playing the game over the net.

Is that still the case? Back then I was more interested in doing a cockpit.. Now Im more interested in collecting and comparing data. And one would probally be doing that offline anyways.

Questions for current DeviceLink users

Q1) What program/util are you using to establish the UDP interface? And thus passing the DeviceLink parameters?

Q2) I noted the DeviceLink.txt file said..

Proposing using the protocol within a single computer, ar a local network

Correct me if Im wrong, but that tells me I could be playing the game on one pc and have seperate pc running the UPD program collecting data.. Assuming I have a LAN with two pc. Thus the pc running the game would not be taking a processing hit trying to run the game and the UPD program. Is that true?

Thanks for any and all info!

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TAGERT

TAGERT.
08-28-2004, 01:52 PM
Answered one question

http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=011755

One thing Im not sure of yet.. Does UDPSpeed allow you to log the data to a file? Or do you have to recored a track.. go back and watch the track and recored the numbers? I hope not.. and I assume the UPDSpeed must allow some data log to file?

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TAGERT

TAGERT.
08-28-2004, 02:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
Answered one question

http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=011755

One thing Im not sure of yet.. Does UDPSpeed allow you to log the data to a file? Or do you have to recored a track.. go back and watch the track and recored the numbers? I hope not.. and I assume the UPDSpeed must allow some data log to file?

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__TAGERT__<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

UPDATE The ANSWER is YES!

[Log]
Write=1
Name=C:\fbapi.log

Write=? Is to enable/disable logging of FB data that UDPSpeed is receiving 1=on 0=off
Name=xxx is the location of the log

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TAGERT

TAGERT.
08-28-2004, 02:41 PM
Q3) Can you use UDPSpeed while playing back a TRACK file? This would really help in checking the test methods people used while doing tests offline

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TAGERT

TAGERT.
08-28-2004, 03:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
_Q3)_ Can you use UDPSpeed while playing back a TRACK file? This would really help in checking the test methods people used while doing tests offline

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__TAGERT__
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>SWEEEEEEEEEEAT! It works on TRACK files too! Now it will be easy to to check people's TRACK files to prove or disprove a BUG! In that now you can capture all the data to do some plots and see if it was a BUG or noob pilot error! This is cool!

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TAGERT

TAGERT.
08-28-2004, 06:33 PM
In another thread BBB_Hyperion, WWMaxGunz, and I were talking about collecting and plotting data from the sim.. so we could use them to compare to real world data. From that discussion I found out that DeviceLink along with a UDP program like UDPSpeed can log such data to a file while your flying AND during TRACK FILE (.ntrk) playbacks! The DeviceLink.txt file in the IL2FB directory lists all the things that can be logged. The goal is to come up with a MIN set of value needed to be logged for post processing. From that MIN set of values the next question is what is the MIN of the MIN needed to be displayed in the cockpit so the pilot can preform a test.

For example.. to do a test flight the pilot will need a display of the plane angle (#48 pitch) but the pilot will NOT need to display the aircraft type (#22 plane) because he would/should know that! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But you would want to put the aircraft type in the log file so during post processing you know what aircraft type this data belongs to.

From the DeviceLink.txt file I looked at ALL the variables we could capture and came up with the following MIN list to be logged. I have not taken this list and determined MIN list of what the pilot needs to see during flight.. but I will.. And would like some feedback from anyone who has any input! The goal here is to come up with a standard log file format so we can all share data easily and have an EXCEL templet that can plot and load the standard format.

Here is the MIN log file list. The "xx" is in lue of UDPSpeed placement and the # are the coresponding DeviceLink numbers.

xx_002_com_dl_version
xx_004_com_accessible
xx_020_com_time_of_day
xx_022_com_plane
xx_030_instrument_speedometer_indicated
xx_032_instrument_variometer
xx_034_instrument_slip
xx_036_instrument_turn
xx_038_instrument_angular_speed
xx_040_instrument_altimeter
xx_042_instrument_azimuth
xx_044_instrument_beacon_azimuth
xx_048_instrument_pitch
xx_050_instrument_fuel
xx_052_instrument_overload
xx_054_instrument_shake_level
xx_064_instrument_rpm
xx_066_instrument_manifold
xx_068_instrument_temp_oilin
xx_070_instrument_temp_oilout
xx_072_instrument_temp_water
xx_074_instrument_temp_cylinders
xx_080_ctrl_power
xx_082_ctrl_flaps
xx_084_ctrl_aileron
xx_086_ctrl_elevator
xx_088_ctrl_rudder
xx_090_ctrl_brakes
xx_092_ctrl_prop_pitch
xx_094_ctrl_aileron_trim
xx_096_ctrl_elevator_trim
xx_098_ctrl_rudder_trim
xx_104_disco_boost
xx_110_disco_supercharger_next
xx_112_disco_supercharger_pre
xx_172_disco_airbrake

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TAGERT

WWMaxGunz
08-28-2004, 10:02 PM
Very strongly suggest you get yourself over to SimHQ and the 3 page
DeviceLink thread going on. Links to 3-4 progs, Sensei's C++ wrapper
code, loads of instructions and tips, faq type problems worked out,
stuff like that.

IIUC, the planetype will make the datafile names use the planetype
in the filename at least for Hyperions program. There is even
UdpGraph available and the author participating in the thread.

BTW, pitch is not glidepath.


Neal

TAGERT.
08-29-2004, 12:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Very strongly suggest you get yourself over to SimHQ and the 3 page
DeviceLink thread going on. Links to 3-4 progs, Sensei's C++ wrapper
code, loads of instructions and tips, faq type problems worked out,
stuff like that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Been there done that! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Check out the link I posted about 3 posts up

http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=011755

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
IIUC, the planetype will make the datafile names use the planetype
in the filename at least for Hyperions program. There is even
UdpGraph available and the author participating in the thread.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Roger.. saw that.. looks like we have options! Which is good! This is defintally a beter way of doing it then trying to eyeball the stuff and recording the numbers like robban75 did.. That and the units are a little more friendler thant velocity/alt! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
BTW, pitch is not glidepath.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You talkin about the difference between pitch and path when AoA is not equal to zero?

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TAGERT

BBB_Hyperion
08-29-2004, 02:34 AM
My Dataformat i use at the Moment is defined in my ini in this Order .

999:Time to last Poll
20:Time Ingame
22:Planetype
30:IAS
32:Climbrate
34:Slip
36:Turn
38:Angular Speed
40:Alt in m
42:Heading
44:Heading Waypoint
46:Rollposition
48:Pitch
50:Fuel
52:G-Load
54:Shaking
64:RPM
66:Manifold Pressure
68:Oil temp In
70:Oil temp out
72:Water temp
74:Cylinder temp

Left site is the parameter and right the heading for this line.
The Output is in this Order how its choosen in the ini.
With Planetype requested it generates a file with the planetype and seperates a new file when crashed refly and such .

output files look this way then
go-229a-1270804052115.txt

Time to last Poll;Time Ingame;Planetype;IAS;Climbrate;Slip;Turn;Angular Speed;Alt in m;Heading;Heading Waypoint;Rollposition;Pitch;Fuel;G-Load;Shaking;RPM;Manifold Pressure;Oil temp In;Oil temp out;Water temp;Cylinder temp
0;5,501111;Go-229A-1;0,00;-8,28;0,00;0,00;0,00;0,00;128,67;27,18;0,00;-1,52;2400,00;0,00;0,00;0,00;1,00;0,00;0,00;0,00;0, 00;
7,98053942598926E-02;5,501111;Go-229A-1;0,00;-8,28;0,00;0,00;0,00;4165,15;128,67;141,33;0,00;-1,52;2400,00;0,00;0,00;3181,76;0,93;0,00;0,00;0,00 ;0,00;
0,145947878851075;5,501111;Go-229A-1;257,01;-8,27;-0,00;0,00;0,00;4164,65;128,67;141,33;0,00;-1,52;2398,00;0,00;0,02;3181,71;2,00;32,00;60,00;40 0,00;400,00;
3,06714959515375E-03;5,501111;Go-229A-1;257,01;-8,27;-0,00;0,00;0,00;4164,65;128,67;141,33;0,00;-1,52;2398,00;0,00;0,02;3181,71;2,00;32,00;60,00;40 0,00;400,00;

Data is already in excel friendly import format you can just click and say import data and seperate on ; For US version you will need to set . for , (Seperator for numbers=.) else excel will give trouble converting the data to numbers.

Such things can be set in INI file.

Seperator_for_Numbers=,
Seperator_for_Text=;

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

TAGERT.
08-29-2004, 02:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
My Dataformat i use at the Moment is defined in my ini in this Order .

999:Time to last Poll
20:Time Ingame
22:Planetype
30:IAS
32:Climbrate
34:Slip
36:Turn
38:Angular Speed
40:Alt in m
42:Heading
44:Heading Waypoint
46:Rollposition
48:Pitch
50:Fuel
52:G-Load
54:Shaking
64:RPM
66:Manifold Pressure
68:Oil temp In
70:Oil temp out
72:Water temp
74:Cylinder temp

Left site is the parameter and right the heading for this line.
The Output is in this Order how its choosen in the ini.
With Planetype requested it generates a file with the planetype and seperates a new file when crashed refly and such .

output files look this way then
go-229a-1270804052115.txt

Time to last Poll;Time Ingame;Planetype;IAS;Climbrate;Slip;Turn;Angular Speed;Alt in m;Heading;Heading Waypoint;Rollposition;Pitch;Fuel;G-Load;Shaking;RPM;Manifold Pressure;Oil temp In;Oil temp out;Water temp;Cylinder temp
0;5,501111;Go-229A-1;0,00;-8,28;0,00;0,00;0,00;0,00;128,67;27,18;0,00;-1,52;2400,00;0,00;0,00;0,00;1,00;0,00;0,00;0,00;0, 00;
7,98053942598926E-02;5,501111;Go-229A-1;0,00;-8,28;0,00;0,00;0,00;4165,15;128,67;141,33;0,00;-1,52;2400,00;0,00;0,00;3181,76;0,93;0,00;0,00;0,00 ;0,00;
0,145947878851075;5,501111;Go-229A-1;257,01;-8,27;-0,00;0,00;0,00;4164,65;128,67;141,33;0,00;-1,52;2398,00;0,00;0,02;3181,71;2,00;32,00;60,00;40 0,00;400,00;
3,06714959515375E-03;5,501111;Go-229A-1;257,01;-8,27;-0,00;0,00;0,00;4164,65;128,67;141,33;0,00;-1,52;2398,00;0,00;0,02;3181,71;2,00;32,00;60,00;40 0,00;400,00;

Data is already in excel friendly import format you can just click and say import data and separate on ; For US version you will need to set . for , (Seperator for numbers=.) else excel will give trouble converting the data to numbers.

Such things can be set in INI file.

Seperator_for_Numbers=,
Seperator_for_Text=;

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Very Cool! Nice work by the way!

The only thing that makes me kind of lean towards UDPSpeed is it's ability to do some nice non-evasive cockpit displays of the numbers (not the big bulky gauges) in that for testing it would be nice to see your speed, alt, Climbrate, pitch, slip for flight testing.

For example.. you want to preform a standard test for a bunch of different aircraft.. So you decide to start each at the same alt.. then dive each at the same angle (pitch) or same dive speed (Climbrate).

The standard IL2 cockpit gauges just don't cut it.. What with the speed bar round off and the fact that some gauges don't work.. and the ones that do are hard to read.

I did some tests with your program.. I *think* I remember it having the ability to STAY ON TOP.. i.e. visible as your playing the game? i.e. like UDPSpeed? Assuming that is the case.. Is there a way to log a lot of data values.. but only display some? I get/got the impression from yours that what ever you put in the ini file will be displayed too.. Is that right? It could get a bit cumbersome.. Anyway.. I just started looking into all this today.. Ill probably wont get another chance till next weekend.. my buddy is coming out on Sunday and we are going to the RODEO! Yeeeeeeeeeeeeee Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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TAGERT

BBB_Hyperion
08-29-2004, 03:07 AM
The Output for on top overlay is at the moment limited to the main parameters if these are requested they are displayed. This is what is displayed at the moment. I think for inflight checking its most important data but isnt a problem to add some if needed.

You can move the window around on desktop to place it correct in game .

http://www.butcherbirds.de/hypesstorage/il2poll.jpg

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

TAGERT.
08-29-2004, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
The Output for on top overlay is at the moment limited to the main parameters if these are requested they are displayed. This is what is displayed at the moment. I think for inflight checking its most important data but isnt a problem to add some if needed.

You can move the window around on desktop to place it correct in game .

http://www.butcherbirds.de/hypesstorage/il2poll.jpg

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah.. cool I didnt know it had that guage on there! Nice work!

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TAGERT

WWMaxGunz
08-29-2004, 10:12 AM
When AOA is zero you are producing no lift? You are then on a ballistic path, right?
That's not something you can hold linear steady by definition is it? A glide path is.

Or to quote Joe Worsley who spent a bit of time in bombers during WWII, when you dive
pointing near straight down the plane is actually moving at an angle to where you're
pointing at because the wings produce lift.

You do know that the wings are designed with some AOA with respect to the forward axis
of most airplanes? It's so they can fly at cruise with the plane pointing straight into
the wind and still have the lift to stay up. Zero AOA requires nose pitched below the
actual path of movement in any plane made like that which is any I know of offhand.


Neal

TAGERT.
08-29-2004, 12:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
When AOA is zero you are producing no lift? You are then on a ballistic path, right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ahhhh don't quote me on this.. it has been awhile.. But I seem to recall that the term AOA refers to the angle between where your nose is pointing and where your actually going.. The difference between the vector that is relative to the body (nose to tail) of the ac and the vector of actual travel.. In short your not allays going where the nose of the plane is pointing

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
That's not something you can hold linear steady by definition is it? A glide path is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not sure if it is just the termnogly here.. but your glide path is that actual travel I was talking about.. think of it as a point mass (like CG of aircraft) with XYZ position and a vector pointing in the direction the point mass is traveling.. and the AOA angle is the difference between that vector and the vector of your aircraft.. At times they are equal.. But for example when you yank the stick back.. your nose comes up.. but your actually flight path has not caught up to where your nose is pointing.. they use AOA to determine accelerated stalls.. and I think stall in general

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Or to quote Joe Worsley who spent a bit of time in bombers during WWII, when you dive pointing near straight down the plane is actually moving at an angle to where you're pointing at because the wings produce lift.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Exactly! I think that is a case of AOA not being zero.. the difference between your actual direction and where your pointing

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
You do know that the wings are designed with some AOA with respect to the forward axis of most airplanes? It's so they can fly at cruise with the plane pointing straight into the wind and still have the lift to stay up. Zero AOA requires nose pitched below the actual path of movement in any plane made like that which is any I know of offhand.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ok.. Ill take your word for it! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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TAGERT

k5054
08-29-2004, 01:01 PM
The g meter will tell you whether the wing is producing lift, the correct AOA for zero-lift is problematical. Zero-lift is obviously best in theory for dive acceleration, but probably this doesn't apply to a WW2 prop fighter in a tactical situation. A zero-lift pushover to the desired dive angle is needed for best dive entry.

Diablo310th
08-29-2004, 04:58 PM
This is great guys. I have been playing around with UDPSpeed for a couplke weeks offline now. How can we get this to work online? Has anyone done it yet? I have not been able to get a server to add the neceassary lines to the config.ini to test it. Has anyone here been able to test online?

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WWMaxGunz
08-29-2004, 11:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
Ahhhh don't quote me on this.. it has been awhile.. But I seem to recall that the term AOA refers to the angle between where your nose is pointing and where your actually going.. The difference between the vector that is relative to the body (nose to tail) of the ac and the vector of actual travel.. In short your not allays going where the nose of the plane is pointing
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, I won't quote you. AOA is Angle Of Attack of the wings only. Pitch is the nose, main
axis.

IMHO, making a plane into a point source and then operating on that should not make the best FM
in terms of handling. That point should shift with almost every or every change in flight.
But that's way far impossible to model in a combat flight sim, probably in my lifetime even
with the increase in PC technology. Have you seen the beginning of the silicon-carbide chip
breakthrough? I'd still bank on nanotech in the long run.


Neal

WWMaxGunz
08-29-2004, 11:16 PM
From what I read so far, it doesn't work online.

TAGERT.
08-29-2004, 11:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Okay, I won't quote you. AOA is Angle Of Attack of the wings only. Pitch is the nose, main axis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>True.. and assuming a ridge body.. as most sims do.. the vector of the body as a whole.. cord line they call it I think? Basically you have the three vectors X, Y, Z pointing forward, right, and down respecfully.. Axes of notations. The cord line passing threw the wing points foward also.. Which is what I was basically saying.. The angel between that forward vector (cord line) and the actual heading.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
IMHO, making a plane into a point source and then operating on that should not make the best FM in terms of handling. That point should shift with almost every or every change in flight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>True.. and I dindt mean to imply tha any sims does that.. I was just trying to draw a mental picture of the origin of the 3 vectors.. the orgin tends to be near the CG.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
But that's way far impossible to model in a combat flight sim, probably in my lifetime even with the increase in PC technology.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Must PC's for the last 5 years or so have been quite able to run "total force" representations and the lesser "small perturbation equations".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Have you seen the beginning of the silicon-carbide chip breakthrough? I'd still bank on nanotech in the long run.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No.. been so busy lately havent had much time for anything! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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TAGERT

moksha
08-31-2004, 04:32 PM
Tagert,
apologies if I have the wrong person http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - was it you who was after instrument bmps to be used with the work you're doig with upd/devicelink etc? If so drop me a line (I can't get pm to work at the moment..)

S!

WWMaxGunz
08-31-2004, 05:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
True.. and assuming a ridge body.. as most sims do.. the vector of the body as a whole.. cord line they call it I think?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chord line is the wing, from leading edge to trailing edge. Just figure pitch is the
roll axis. Pitch is where the nose is pointing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Basically you have the three vectors X, Y, Z pointing forward, right, and down respecfully.. Axes of notations. The cord line passing threw the wing points foward also.. Which is what I was basically saying.. The angel between that forward vector (cord line) and the actual heading.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The wing chord line is in every plane I know of angled upward to the pitch. That does not
mean they all have to be that way. When the prop is flat into the wind you want to have
enough lift to fly level or at some climbrate so you have the wings angled up a bit. No
AOA, no lift. AOA matching pitch means the plane has to be pitched up to even stay level
in flight. At very high speeds most every plane will not need the AOA of cruise speed
and they trim down to where the pitch is lower than the angle of flight which is termed
as "nose tuck". When you dive at high speed, you will have to tuck the nose just to
keep your glide angle from rising. Use trim for it but be ready to back the trim off
as you slow in the pullout.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>True.. and I dindt mean to imply tha any sims does that.. I was just trying to draw a mental picture of the origin of the 3 vectors.. the orgin tends to be near the CG.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhhh, but some maybe most, maybe all sims do! Most esp the tabled sims, the ones you
could roll and spin like there was no friction in all with mathematical precision.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Must PC's for the last 5 years or so have been quite able to run "total force" representations and the lesser "small perturbation equations".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was referring to getting away from the single-point model. Oleg does that I guess
when movement on one axis causes movement on another but not on the same origin. That
is closer to what I wanted to say. Everything pinned to one point, when I feel that
in a sim, it ain't natural. Possibly that business really died with tabled sims but
it didn't necessarily have to.


Neal

TAGERT.
08-31-2004, 08:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Chord line is the wing, from leading edge to trailing edge.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Correct!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Just figure pitch is the roll axis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah? I don't think so.. pitch is along the left to right (wing) axis.. like you get from elevator changes... roll is the front to back axis.. like you get from ailerons changes

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Pitch is where the nose is pointing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Correct

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
The wing chord line is in every plane I know of angled upward to the pitch. That does not mean they all have to be that way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Correct.. All I'm saying is the cord LIKE THE pitch run from front to back... put another way point forward.. not Left, not Right, not Up, not Down

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
When the prop is flat into the wind you want to have enough lift to fly level or at some climbrate so you have the wings angled up a bit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Correct

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
No AOA, no lift.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Emmmmm I don't know if I agree with that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
AOA matching pitch means the plane has to be pitched up to even stay level in flight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Correct.. As you noted.. they tend to have the wing cord pointing up a little bit relative to the nose to tail (pitch) axis. Just so you don't have to pull the stick back just to fly level.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
At very high speeds most every plane will not need the AOA of cruise speed and they trim down to where the pitch is lower than the angle of flight which is termed as "nose tuck".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not sure about the nose tuck term.. but the rest is correct

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
When you dive at high speed, you will have to tuck the nose just to keep your glide angle from rising. Use trim for it but be ready to back the trim off as you slow in the pullout.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Correct

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Ahhhh, but some maybe most, maybe all sims do!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>which is why I sad *tends*

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Most esp the tabled sims, the ones you could roll and spin like there was no friction in all with mathematical precision.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Which are actually hard to find these days.. The last tabled based sim... Hmmmm I forget.. But one of the first total force sims was PAW:1942

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
I was referring to getting away from the single-point model. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What other model is there? I forget what they called the FM used on that sim a few years back.. I think it was called Fly.. It used the equations that actually simulated the air equations.. But.. it took all of the PC resources just to model one airplane at a time.. no AI.. nothing else.. That and they were greatly simplified from what they could be.. Those types are typical reserved for modeling the effects the body has.. i.e. a sort of simulated test pilot for aircraft development.. And they typically take all day to simulate a few minutes of flight time.. i.e. not real time. Once an aircraft is build you can collect the parameters to simulate it without using that type of math.. i.e. like IL2 and so many other sims do. Which means the total force equations are more than enough for what we and military simulators do.. simulate the flight of know aircraft. Problem is.. with our WWII and WWII sims is a lot of that data needed does not exist anymore.. if ever.. Thus.. They may in the future use a flight model like that to extract the data points they need for the total force equations. Now days I think they just take a WAG at it and see if it flys ok and hope nobody notices! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Oleg does that I guess when movement on one axis causes movement on another but not on the same origin. That is closer to what I wanted to say.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You lost me there?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Everything pinned to one point, when I feel that in a sim, it ain't natural. Possibly that business really died with tabled sims but
it didn't necessarily have to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well.. be sure that it is not a point mass they are modeling in the total force equations! Far from! Granted the origin of it's position relative to the 3D world is.. But only as a reference.. as "x" is a *reference* in y=2*x^2+1.

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TAGERT

TAGERT.
08-31-2004, 08:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moksha:
Tagert,
apologies if I have the wrong person http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - was it you who was after instrument bmps to be used with the work you're doig with upd/devicelink etc? If so drop me a line (I can't get pm to work at the moment..)

S!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Emmm not it wast me... I actually dont use the guages at all.. just the numeric displays.. But thanks!

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BaldieJr
08-31-2004, 10:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by moksha:
Tagert,
apologies if I have the wrong person http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - was it you who was after instrument bmps to be used with the work you're doig with upd/devicelink etc? If so drop me a line (I can't get pm to work at the moment..)

S!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thats me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Can you help?

<A HREF="http://officemax.secureportal.com/" TARGET=_blank>
Hey ya'll prepare yourselves
for the rubberband man!</A>
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http://www.fighterjerks.com

TAGERT.
09-01-2004, 12:56 AM
check this out

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=485007007

Let me know what you think

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TAGERT

WUAF_Badsight
09-01-2004, 01:35 AM
looking foward to your testing results tagert : )

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
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TAGERT.
09-01-2004, 01:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
looking foward to your testing results tagert : )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As in my flight tests? Or as in testig other peoples flight tests? If the later.. go here

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=485007007

As for my flight tests.. Hey.. I only got 2 PC's and 2 hands.. I cant develope the analysis tools and method and fly the dang things all in one day! By this weekend I should have some more standard dive tests done

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TAGERT

moksha
09-01-2004, 03:58 AM
Ah Baldie my apologies-yes I can help-my mail is moksha@teambg.zzn.com, or PM me here with what you want-as long as you have the references/pics I can work from I'd love to help.

Tagert-if you want a hand with testing same goes here-drop me what I need to do ie test conditions, I have udp speed and udpgraph and udpaeppoll (Sorry Hyp forget its real name..)
so happy to test and back up with tracks (can't host but can mail them to you) and upd logs.

I was thinking of doing some testing myself but
with the work you've put in your testing regime's much more comprehensive.

Keep up the excellent work

S!

WWMaxGunz
09-01-2004, 04:59 AM
Tagert, re the single point model I am referring to having the single point at a fixed
place in the model of the plane itself. Consider front engine where the tail pushes
down to balance the weight of the engine and the CL pushes up. So is pitch axis at
the CL? And when you increase or decrease AOA and the CL changes, if the model is
such that the pitch axis is in a fixed relation to the 3D model then what you got?
Let's not bother with torque effects, all I can say is they are there. I have seen
FM's in the past that strongly felt as if the yaw, pitch and roll axes all ran through
a single fixed point of the plane which IMHO simply ain't true! Want worse? Think
of biplanes and where the axes are -- they meet in one point? What is the true
geometry of the balance of engine, tail and CL of a highwing plane? Lift is above
the cabin for one. it's nice to think of the axes all through one point. Certainly
easier for simplifying the math, but I don't believe it's always true.


Neal