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View Full Version : Long depth charge attacks should influence and change the crew's morale.



Stevepine
05-25-2004, 08:45 PM
I hope that it won't just be victories and completed missions which boost the crews morale.

I would personally like to see ( and im sure you would too) long periods of time under attack from destroyers eat away at the crews morale... and to balance it out ... every individual sinking or torp hit increase it.

Other factors could be : A resupply at sea.

The length of time at sea without a sinking


Death / or even injury to a fellow crew member
.. what do you think?

Stevepine
05-25-2004, 08:45 PM
I hope that it won't just be victories and completed missions which boost the crews morale.

I would personally like to see ( and im sure you would too) long periods of time under attack from destroyers eat away at the crews morale... and to balance it out ... every individual sinking or torp hit increase it.

Other factors could be : A resupply at sea.

The length of time at sea without a sinking


Death / or even injury to a fellow crew member
.. what do you think?

Teddy Bar
05-25-2004, 09:10 PM
Whilst a long and close depth charge attack would be stressful I don't feel that it would, or should, be a demoraliser. After all, it is expected to occur and they were trained for such.

So I say that the crew should not suffer any moral 'points' for going through a depth charge attack.

Cheers,

Teddy B¤r

finchOU
05-25-2004, 09:20 PM
Teddy Bar,

I disagree......everyone is trained for everything......even long deployments....but moral does go down the longer you are out, and in combat, the range of emotions should be simulated. Moral is a huge thing a Captain has to deal with.....one bad apple can kill moral.......though hard to simulate, I think they should try!

Mon Pavion
05-25-2004, 11:22 PM
Agreed. There are plenty of accounts of sub crews "cracking" under the pressure of prolonged depth charge attacks. Moral should be affected by this in the game.

U-319
05-25-2004, 11:50 PM
At best only 1 or 2 guys would crack under that pressure.

Is their any proof that more than 1 or 2 guys crack under depth charge attacks in WW2?

Now i can understand if morale dipped if a u-boat crew sailed around all the time without seeing any targets. but not under attack.

Blood_Claw
05-26-2004, 03:11 AM
I for my part would like to see those factors accounted for in Crew Management/Morale, especially since they seem to emphasize it so.

And IMHO a long time under depth charge attack should have an influence on morale - Morale is a floating thing with long term consequences.

Also i never heard or red German crews were trained for being under depth charge attack or told what to expect - its just expierence they accumlated which told them what to expect, again a factor in Morale.

A person cracking under such pressure should reflect a low morale which built up over some time.
For example Johann "The Ghost"; the chief engineer from "Das Boot" cracked on his 9th time being on tour with an sub. So I think it isnt just that one time being under attack which make him crack but rather a step by step go down of his overall morale.

But the most important thing I for myself dont really think this can be reasonable modelled in a Subsim of that scale with the resources and time available to the Dev team, still I like to be surprised http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Cheers
Blood_Claw

Teddy Bar
05-26-2004, 03:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGeneral_D:
Agreed. There are plenty of accounts of sub crews "cracking" under the pressure of prolonged depth charge attacks. Moral should be affected by this in the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I will not dispute that a crew member or several crew members have cracked under a depth charge attack. I will however dispute that it was a common occurance. I would go so far as to say, that I believe that it was the exception, not the norm.

I would be pleased to read these accounts if you could provide documentation and links. Das Boot does not count, it is also my understanding that the account of the Chief? mechanic going off the deep end in Das Boot is ficticious, and the real person to whom the incident refers to was/is greately offended.

Of course when a person cracks under pressure he does not have to loose it, he may simply stop functioning. Also, I doubt that 1 person's failure in this situation would demoralise the entire, or even many of the crew.

Cheers,

Teddy B¤r

Blood_Claw
05-26-2004, 04:26 AM
Hi Teddy Bar,

Iam sorry if I made myself misunderstood but I never claimed the situation of Das Boot to be real http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif, for me its just an example to express how I see the term Morale influence a crewmember.
I also dont think that it was a common occurence but who knows...

I agree with you that a persons blackout doesnt much influence the Morale of the Crew.
But once the person cracks, loose it or whatever the important part is he stops functioning and that matters if the person has an important duty and there are some members onboard an sub who have http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Just think on the guys at the divepanels, sonar etc.
Of course there are other to take over but you would loose some seconds, maybe valuable ones.

Cheers
Blood_Claw

CB..
05-26-2004, 06:38 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhe he!!! all we need do is look honestly in the mirror and ask our selves how would i feel?

or have we been roleplaying "Uber heroes" so long now that we actually believe ourselves immune to fear...LOL
ye gawds..sounds like gaming psychosis to me..

we are talking here about the lowering of morale under extended periods of attack..


we get fed up if it rains for a couple of days during our summer holidays ..wake up.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

[This message was edited by CB.. on Wed May 26 2004 at 06:07 AM.]

Teddy Bar
05-26-2004, 07:39 AM
By the arguments posted here regarding combat and moral, and the obvious drop of moral from a couple of hours of combat, it begs the obvious question, how did the Army ever get out of bed in the mornings?

After all, after a few days of combat then they would be so demorolised they wouldn't be able to fight I guess?

It was never stated that the sailors would not have been scared, or feared for thier lives. All forces are trained to follow orders, to do it without thinking, to not let your fellows down. This training hopefully enables the person to control their fear and perform their duties.

How would I feel, most definately scared.

Cheers,

Teddy B¤r

CB..
05-26-2004, 07:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Teddy Bar:
how did the Army ever get out of bed in the mornings?

After all, after a few days of combat then they would be so demorolised they wouldn't be able to fight I guess?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

depends on how yu view the morale feature in the game...and the difference between lowering of morale and crew performance..initailly the surge of adrenaline would have probably enhanced crew performance..but slowly over many hours of an extended attack this must ebb away to be replaced by fatigue and elevated levels of apprehension..it's a question of modelling the grey area imbetween full capability and null capability..which essentailly is the entire point of having a morale system ..

quite possibly...

Mon Pavion
05-26-2004, 09:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Teddy Bar:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGeneral_D:
Agreed. There are plenty of accounts of sub crews "cracking" under the pressure of prolonged depth charge attacks. Moral should be affected by this in the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I will not dispute that a crew member or several crew members have cracked under a depth charge attack. I will however dispute that it was a common occurance. I would go so far as to say, that I believe that it was the exception, not the norm.

I would be pleased to read these accounts if you could provide documentation and links. Das Boot does not count, it is also my understanding that the account of the Chief? mechanic going off the deep end in Das Boot is ficticious, and the real person to whom the incident refers to was/is greately offended.

Of course when a person cracks under pressure he does not have to loose it, he may simply stop functioning. Also, I doubt that 1 person's failure in this situation would demoralise the entire, or even many of the crew.

Cheers,

Teddy B¤r<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Submarine" by Commander Edward Beach, USN
"U-Boat Commander" by Peter Cremer

Those are just a couple of books that have multiple accounts of crew members "freaking out" and loosing control under depth charge attack. There is a specific case in "Submarine" where Beach, while in command of the USS Trigger, had to have a guy knocked out to get him to shut up because he was screaming uncontrolably.

Maybe the game should have just the rookies more affected by this kind of thing than the more seasoned members. But to say that depth charging did not affect sub crews is simply not true.

negus1
05-26-2004, 09:40 AM
this is a very strange discussion ...

1) u-boat crews were very well selected. only volunteers and not all of them were taken. unlike other wehrmacht parts the u-boatwaffe always got the best recruits.

2)there was a very hard training with the main objective to sort out those who had weak nerves. for instance the flooding of the boat was trained in special training rooms that could be totally flooded. crew members had to hold breath until hatches could be opened (because of water pressure compensation). so imagine yourself in a room which you can only leave after it was totally flooded.

3) the johann-example of Das Boot is very bad because exactly this scene was harshly criticized by the real crew members of U 98. the author just invented it.

4) a depth charge attack is something invisible. you do not see the depth charges coming. a depth charge which is exploding 50 meters away makes almost the same noise like one which is exploding 100 meters away.

5) after a long depth charge attack you do not get hysteric but very very tired. this is due to the rising CO2 concentration. there was the case of a WWI-u-Boat (do not remember the number) that was found after WWI. it surfaced only because the vents got leaky. the crew was found dead in their berths. the whole u-boat just fell asleep and everyone died! this phenomenon was very often described and many crews were afraid of this.

so please do not overestimate moral issues in depth charge attacks. moral was mostly influenced by boredom !!! but we will not have this problem since SHIII will beam us directly to patrol zone http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

"Negus 1 an alle kleinen Brüder, wir greifen an! Kameraden, dicht aufschließen zum Sturmangriff! Die Begleitgruppe aufpassen auf Indianer. Wir machen Pauke, Pauke; nur die Ruhe, Kameraden, alles mir nach!"
Maj. Dahl JG 300

CB..
05-26-2004, 10:13 AM
he! he!!
mind you the whole idea of modelling WW2 as a game/simulation is hugely baffling if yu ask me!! enough to keep a pyschological/philospohical study group busy for a very long time !! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

i'm allways struck by this conflict as a fan of war simulations...very odd indeed http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif