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Scragbat
01-12-2004, 05:46 AM
Firstly, I am not starting a debate on wether or not you play for points or for the love of the dogfight.
What I would like to see is the scoring system fixed so that 'kill stealers' can not claim your kill after you have done all the work.
If you have delivered the killer blow which wrecks an engine, takes a wing off, sets the a/c on fire etc., and leaves the a/c unflyable and heading for the ground this should be your kill and yours alone.
No other pilot on your side should then be allowed to claim the kill by clipping the stricken a/c with one or two shots.
There will be those that would say they know it was their work that brought the a/c down and the score is of no consequence to them, but like I said. That is not the point of this topic.
There are those that do play for points online, there are those that do press 'S' to see who is the top dog, and there are those who have many points not from skillfull dogfighting but for mearly scavenging other pilots kills.
There are those that also say if you couldn't hold onto the kill that it's your own fault for giving it away, but if you have left the a/c stricken, why waste valuable ammo staying with it?

To summarise - You deliver the shots that leave an aircraft stricken then that kill should be yours.

*** If you don't play for points then this topic is not for you. There's nothing to see here, please move along... ***

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Scragbat
01-12-2004, 05:46 AM
Firstly, I am not starting a debate on wether or not you play for points or for the love of the dogfight.
What I would like to see is the scoring system fixed so that 'kill stealers' can not claim your kill after you have done all the work.
If you have delivered the killer blow which wrecks an engine, takes a wing off, sets the a/c on fire etc., and leaves the a/c unflyable and heading for the ground this should be your kill and yours alone.
No other pilot on your side should then be allowed to claim the kill by clipping the stricken a/c with one or two shots.
There will be those that would say they know it was their work that brought the a/c down and the score is of no consequence to them, but like I said. That is not the point of this topic.
There are those that do play for points online, there are those that do press 'S' to see who is the top dog, and there are those who have many points not from skillfull dogfighting but for mearly scavenging other pilots kills.
There are those that also say if you couldn't hold onto the kill that it's your own fault for giving it away, but if you have left the a/c stricken, why waste valuable ammo staying with it?

To summarise - You deliver the shots that leave an aircraft stricken then that kill should be yours.

*** If you don't play for points then this topic is not for you. There's nothing to see here, please move along... ***

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MatuDa_
01-12-2004, 05:54 AM
It is annoying but you cant really decide the killer by amount of hits either since a small burst to the engine will kill a plane but a long burst to the fuselage usually doesn't..

..Can you please tell us how that should be fixed other than kb:ing stealing n00bs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (not that it is a bad idea tho...)

EDIT: spelling

Scragbat
01-12-2004, 06:00 AM
I'm not saying that 'x' amount of shots decides the kill. Most people know when the job is done. It might be a short burst or a prolonged fight with many hits. But you know when the job is done. The engine is killed, wing off, flames pouring out of engine etc.
The point that you break off knowing the job is done is when the 'stealers' move in.
If scoring was addressed for this issue then it would stop a lot of online arguments and kicking and banning.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MatuDa_:
It is annoying but you cant really decide the killer by amount off hits either since a small burst to the engine willl kill a plane but a long burstt to the fuselage usually doesn't..

..Can you please tell us how that should be fixed other than kb:ing stealing n00bs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Recon_609IAP
01-12-2004, 06:16 AM
I'd like to see when someone dies their point total goes back to zero

S!
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Recon_609IAP
01-12-2004, 06:17 AM
"If scoring was addressed for this issue then it would stop a lot of online arguments and kicking and banning"

People are kicking and banning over this?

Wow - getting a bit serious aren't we?

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VW-IceFire
01-12-2004, 07:00 AM
This is definately a good point...I'm sure the game engine knows when a plane is "dead" (ie. heading towards the ground and not under direct control of the pilot) and thats probably when the kill should be counted (not fully till it actually goes down but I think you know what I mean). I have definately seen people hang around another and wait till they have blasted the guy from the sky and then fire a burst at the plane - they get the kill, name, and points...a bit annoying.

Wouldn't mean the end of the world if it weren't fixed but it would be nice to have something done about that. Maybe for BoB.

Most players I play with don't go with this kind of behavior so I don't see these types so often.

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Scragbat
01-12-2004, 07:19 AM
Yep, As I live and breath people are getting kicked for 'kill stealing' and rightly so.
I join all sorts of servers with many variations of difficulty settings. The kill stealing happens mostly on servers with many players as far as I have seen, but it does go on on smaller servers too.
I just think it's out of order and as a Brit I would have to say it's a jolly bad show old bean http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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WB_Outlaw
01-12-2004, 09:48 AM
You're asking for a lot of subjective thinking from a computer that, bottom line, can do nothing more than add 0 to 0, 0 to 1, and 1 to 1.

You could setup a prioritized list of things that count as fatal but you would still have complaints. For example, I have safely ditched with nothing but elevator controls. I have safely ditched with a burning engine(s). I have safely ditched with most of the tail missing. What constitutes a "fatal" blow? For the realists like me, an aircraft with a pilot who can bail out or ditch and fight another day is a valid target.

Here are a few examples that would cause complaints...

Example 1: Pilot A gets an engine kill on a target. Target rolls over and dives for the ground. Pilot B down on the deck sees target level out from the dive and puts a 90 degree deflection shot into the cockpit putting 2 rounds into the pilot's head. Who should get the kill? Should pilot B get kicked?

Example 2: Pilot A riddles a target's wing but fails to get the single remaining .30 caliber hit that would break the wing. Pilot B fires 599 rounds at the target missing with all but a single round, which breaks the wing off. Who should get the kill? Should pilot B get kicked?

Example 3: Pilot A is involved in a turn fight with the target. Pilot B arrives 1500 feet above the fight. As pilot B gets directly overhead he rolls inverted and dives down on the target. Just as pilot B begins firing, pilot A shoots the tail off the target. Milliseconds later pilot B gets a pilot kill. Who should get the kill? Should pilot B get kicked?

Example 4: Pilot A blows the tail off the target and breaks away. The target pilot immediately starts to bail out. Before the target pilot can get out pilot B scores a pilot kill. Who should get the kill? Should pilot B get kicked?

Example 5: See example 2 but replace the wing with an engine fire.


I especially disagree with kicking/banning of "kill stealers". This is a totally subjective definition and there are so many ways to be a "kill thief" without intending to be one that the whole concept is bogus to me.

Also, I have put out fuel tank fires in He-111s by diving. Both engines continued to run at full power (though both were smoking) up until the time a Hurricane scored a pilot kill.

My bottom line is that the only way to objectively score is to award the kill to whoever inflicted the most damage against the target, regardless of whether or not that damage broke a wing, started a fire, killed the pilot, etc.

-Outlaw.

p1ngu666
01-12-2004, 10:17 AM
there is that, then u see ppl fireing at a spirialing plane with a wing missing :\

Scragbat
01-12-2004, 11:00 AM
This is really not about the morals of kicking someone but the scoring system itself. Sorry that it may have gone this way but kicking should only come into play for those that won't engage in a dogfight but will just tail dogfights and then move in and steal kills.
This is another debate.

The point at issue is scoring.

"My bottom line is that the only way to objectively score is to award the kill to whoever inflicted the most damage against the target..."

This is actually my point.

Generally a pilot causing the most damage is the pilot who leaves an a/c stricken (unable to fly). This usually results in a wing off or broken engine but not always.

Programming does not need to think subjectively. A program would know that a spiralling a/c with a wing missing has had it's day or an aircraft with over 60% damage has basically had it. The person who inflicted this damage deserves the kill. Not an opportunistic fighter picking up scraps from the aces platter (LOL!).

To define 'kill stealing' in my book is someone who uses this as a tactic and will not engage in a proper dogfight but scavenge other peoples kills.

I'm not saying that every 'kill steal' should result in a kick, because as was pointed out, they can happen innocently.
However, there are those that use 'kill stealing' as a tactic and will not put the work into a dogfight. They shouldn't get the points for the kill.

I don't think anybody in the above examples should be kicked in those circumstances.
Just the people who do it over and over again and tail dogfights and move in with a stealing kill on a sipralling or bailing craft.

This debate is not about kicking people who kill steal. It is about the scoring system awarding points to those that don't deserve them.

"You could setup a prioritized list of things that count as fatal but you would still have complaints. For example, I have safely ditched with nothing but elevator controls. I have safely ditched with a burning engine(s). I have safely ditched with most of the tail missing. What constitutes a "fatal" blow? For the realists like me, an aircraft with a pilot who can bail out or ditch and fight another day is a valid target."

If a stricken aircraft manages to land with it's elevators knackered or half it's tail missing or engine on fire etc., then well done for that pilot for getting it onto the ground and surviving.
This should still be regarded as a kill though.
That aircraft has been removed from the fight. It is no longer airworthy and cannot perform in a dogfight and is basically scrap.
The pilot may be alive but the aircraft is 'killed'. Points should be awarded thus...

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[This message was edited by Scragbat on Mon January 12 2004 at 10:11 AM.]

Fillmore
01-12-2004, 01:32 PM
"Programming does not need to think subjectively. A program would know that a spiralling a/c with a wing missing has had it's day or an aircraft with over 60% damage has basically had it."

Who are you to say what the program does and doesn't know? Sure the FM "knows" that the wing is missing, but that doesn't mean the rest of the code "knows". There are already some triggers built-in (actually I thing wing missing IS one of them), you can tell by the way the AI behaves (it stops shooting when it "knows" the target is killed), but I have also seen the AI shoot/chase/KS targets that I would consider dead, so clearly it doesn't have as many triggers as we might want. I agree it would be nice to have some of these things refined, but only for the sake of the AI (I would like to see the AI break off from an enemy that is "obviously" done for [even one that is still perfectly flyable], I would like to see the AI continue to persue a plane that isn't "obviously" done for [even if it really is done for], I would like to see the AI break off and disengage when its engine is smoking etc.).

60% damage is purely subjective in a game where planes do not have simple Hit Points like monsters in a role-playing game.

Personally I think the entire scoring system should be removed entirely, as should all the messages relating to damage on enemy aircraft. In its place there should be a statistics log which shows which rounds fired from which planes hit which targets and did what damage, and script writers can do with it what they wish (for scripted mission it would be cool to have to submit kill claims and wait for claims to be confirmed/rejected).

Come to think of it, what was done IRL when two different pilots claimed kills on the same enemy plane?

WB_Outlaw
01-12-2004, 02:00 PM
Scragbat,
Disregard all my kick/ban comments and just look at the "who gets the kill" part. So, who gets the kill in those situations?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Generally a pilot causing the most damage is the pilot who leaves an a/c stricken (unable to fly). This usually results in a wing off or broken engine but not always.

Programming does not need to think subjectively. A program would know that a spiralling a/c with a wing missing has had it's day or an aircraft with over 60% damage has basically had it. The person who inflicted this damage deserves the kill. Not an opportunistic fighter picking up scraps from the aces platter (LOL!).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't say that you are wrong, but I would have to see some evidence before I agreed with that first statement. Does a 90 degree deflection shot that instantly shuts down an engine cause more than 60% damage to the entire aircraft?

It's impossible to code "basically had it" into a computer program. If each system on the aircraft is 60% damaged then overall damage is 60% yet there are no failures (assuming that 100% is required for a failure). What of a case where three pilots each put 20% damage into a target and there are no major failures?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
If a stricken aircraft manages to land with it's elevators knackered or half it's tail missing or engine on fire etc., then well done for that pilot for getting it onto the ground and surviving.
This should still be regarded as a kill though.
That aircraft has been removed from the fight. It is no longer airworthy and cannot perform in a dogfight and is basically scrap.
The pilot may be alive but the aircraft is 'killed'.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not saying that a kill should not be awarded. My point is that no matter how you priortize the list of "fatal" damage, it's not going be fair. For example, with his last few rounds, Pilot A gets a lucky shot and center-punches the crankcase of my DB-601 sending the flywheel and half of the camshaft through the port engine cowling to finally land on an some orphans on the ground below (fortunately two of the mains held and kept the crankshaft from center punching me). The engine is done for, I have to put down one way or another, I am "killed". However, I'm still in flight and as I come down from 6000 feet at 378 knots indicated I get lucky and line up on a B-17 and put 16 20mm rounds into the cockpit, killing the pilot, shooting off the co-pilot's left arm, and impaling the navigator through the head with the radius of the co-pilot. Below me, are two more B-17s just waiting for the same thing. Unfortunately for me, a P-51 lines up on me and fires 100 rounds of .50 ammo, putting 27 rounds into the starboard wing root causing the wing to break off. The rest of the burst misses. As my 109 rolls over and I desperately try to jettison the canopy, stabilize the g-load on the aircraft, and hit the quick release for the harness, another burst puts 4 rounds through the fuel tank behind the seat (below the fuel level), through the pilot armor, through me, through the instrument panel, and into the now practically empty crankcase, there to rattle around all the way down. I'll leave off the kick question and just go with, who gets the kill? Why? Is the engine more important than the wing? Is the pilot more important than the engine? Is a fire more important than everything aft of the cockpit? Are the elevator controls the most important?

Once you have decided who gets the kill for this and the preceeding examples, write down the decision making process so that it can be coded. Keep in mind that this code also has to deal with any other possibility that may come up and result in an equally satisfying decision. Except in the case of obvious major structural failures, I don't think it's possible. I still believe that the only way for the computer to make a consistent decision is to use the amount of damage inflicted regardless of whether or not it led to a failure of anything.

-Outlaw.

Scragbat
01-12-2004, 02:06 PM
"Who are you to say what the program does and doesn't know? Sure the FM "knows" that the wing is missing, but that doesn't mean the rest of the code "knows""

I don't know for sure what the program knows and doesn't know and neither do you.
If the code of the main program didn't know what was going on with the aircraft within the 'game' environment that it was controlling then I would be very surprised.

The program does know when an aircraft is destroyed and it also knows who got the last connecting shot before that aircraft was destroyed. From this it decides who gets the points for the kill, not who inflicted the most damage or who ultimately delivered the killer shot.

The scoring system as it is is definately not right in this case.
If there is no relationship between FM (think you meant DM) and the program code then it needs to be recoded if the scoring system is to be considered at all valid.

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Scragbat
01-12-2004, 04:35 PM
WOW Outlaw http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
That was quite a reply.

I don't know about using that scenario to back up your argument. I think you should use it for a movie! LOL

Listening to these arguments has left me wondering if Oleg had the right idea in the first place.

If a pilot inflicts over 50% damage to an aircraft then that would obviously mean that no one else can inflict more damage than this. Would this then be a reward of full kill points.
What constitutes more than 50% damage?
Like you said. How can you priortize the list of "fatal" damage and how can it be fair?
Would a wing off be more than 50% damage?
A totaled engine more than 50%?
A killed pilot shot through the canopy would result in little damage to the aircraft but 100% damage to the pilot!

I wonder if Oleg thought this would cause no end of arguments on fairness of who the kill belonged to and decided, oh to hell with it! Last one to get a hit before destruction of that aircraft or before they hit bail or 'refly' gets the kill.
Everyone else is a rotten egg!

(Scragbat carefully backs out of the room)

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Fillmore
01-13-2004, 05:15 AM
"The program does know when an aircraft is destroyed and it also knows who got the last connecting shot before that aircraft was destroyed. From this it decides who gets the points for the kill, not who inflicted the most damage or who ultimately delivered the killer shot."

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that last hit gets the kill. That is simply not the way it is ingame. Exactly how it is, noone knows exactly, but based on all the other threads I have seen I am most definitely not the only one who has seen with his own eyes that last hit does not always get the kill credit.

Recon_609IAP
01-13-2004, 05:39 AM
that is correct.

I have shot up an AC pretty good, a wingie will put a few shots in him as he is going down, but I would still get the kill.



Scragbat - I've flew almost everynight for 2 years and can count on one hand the number of kicks because of this. (Although I don't play on the arcade servers and those are now 95% of what is available)

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Scragbat
01-13-2004, 07:45 AM
Perhaps I am mistaken then. I was under the impression that last shot on a stricken a/c resulted in points going to the pilot who had landed that last shot. I'm sure I have seen this happen...?
But maybe I'm wrong...

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LeadSpitter_
01-13-2004, 09:25 AM
the way I see it is, no plane is anyones kill, If I shoot a planes wing off and someone shoots him afterwards I usually get credit anyway for shooting more ammo into the plane, what really needs to be addressed is the team collisions, you play for 2 hrs and get 2500 pts and spawn in front of a moving aircraft a couple times and your down to 800 in a matter of minutes.

Collision kills also dont deserve points

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StellarRat
01-13-2004, 01:17 PM
Who cares really? As long as the right team gets credit for the kill it doesn't really matter to me if someone occasionally loses a few points. In real life pilots were credited with 1/2 kills, etc...when two or more pilots downed the same target. If you are asking the game to figure out exactly who killed the target in every circumstance, you're asking for an almost impossible coding task that will no doubt slow the frame rate down.

GoodKn1ght
01-14-2004, 06:39 AM
i think if you get a pilot kill, that should automatically give you the kill. thats the only thing that kind of angers me. someone will not hit refly after getting pked, and teammates wont know the pilot is dead, so they shoot at the plane and get credit for my excellent or lucky gunnery.

p1ngu666
01-15-2004, 04:27 AM
yeah leadsplitter
ive been just starting taxing a pe8 when a 190 poped up ahead of me. was a very eeek! moment cos was carrin the 5000kg bomb