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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 03:40 PM
I've been following these boards for neigh on 1 year (or is it two?)

There is a term that I quite readily understand: Luftwhiner

To me it means a guy who flyes LW planes and complains a lot in an unreasonable way about either LW planes alledeged undermodelling OR VVS planes alleged overmodelling.

Now, some guys on these forums have VALID objections, by which I mean - they object in a logical way and try to substantiate their claims as best they can. These are NOT whiners IMO. Simply concerned and enthusiastic simmers who'd love to see their planes correctly modelled.

OK - according to many of the Luftwhiners we also have a lot of VVS whiners on the board. People who irrationaly try to opress the quest for correctly modelled planes and keep the 'unfair advantage' that VVS planes, according to the luftwhiners, hold.

My problem is that I am not able to spot the VVS whiners !

I've been called a VVS whiner myself - but I can't take that serious. You won't find a single post from my hand where I complain about LW FMs being too good or VVS FMs being too bad. And you certainly wont find any posts that with any reason can be described as whining. If you wanna check that I am not lying about this - I used to post under nicks: SKULLS_Yanev and Yanev too.

Some people say that there's a lot of VVS whining on the russian speaking forums. I do not speak russian so I am not able to see that for my self. What do they complain about ? Are there any Non-Whining VVS complainers over there ?

SO: Out of curiousity - would somebody plz show me a link to a VVS whiner post ?


C!

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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 03:40 PM
I've been following these boards for neigh on 1 year (or is it two?)

There is a term that I quite readily understand: Luftwhiner

To me it means a guy who flyes LW planes and complains a lot in an unreasonable way about either LW planes alledeged undermodelling OR VVS planes alleged overmodelling.

Now, some guys on these forums have VALID objections, by which I mean - they object in a logical way and try to substantiate their claims as best they can. These are NOT whiners IMO. Simply concerned and enthusiastic simmers who'd love to see their planes correctly modelled.

OK - according to many of the Luftwhiners we also have a lot of VVS whiners on the board. People who irrationaly try to opress the quest for correctly modelled planes and keep the 'unfair advantage' that VVS planes, according to the luftwhiners, hold.

My problem is that I am not able to spot the VVS whiners !

I've been called a VVS whiner myself - but I can't take that serious. You won't find a single post from my hand where I complain about LW FMs being too good or VVS FMs being too bad. And you certainly wont find any posts that with any reason can be described as whining. If you wanna check that I am not lying about this - I used to post under nicks: SKULLS_Yanev and Yanev too.

Some people say that there's a lot of VVS whining on the russian speaking forums. I do not speak russian so I am not able to see that for my self. What do they complain about ? Are there any Non-Whining VVS complainers over there ?

SO: Out of curiousity - would somebody plz show me a link to a VVS whiner post ?


C!

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JerseyD
09-26-2003, 03:59 PM
by the title I thought you were asking about the whereabouts of Olegs old squeeze Lila lol

That was her name I think

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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 05:10 PM
The 190 can perform some out of this world manuevers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif NO redout or blackout from constant roll opposite banks nonstop.

But there a couple of them that do the same thing hopefully they will be fixed and a feel of some realism will be brought to FB


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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 05:13 PM
you wont find many VVS whiners.Read into that what you may.

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 05:18 PM
maybe you are searching in the wrong forum /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

Message Edited on 09/26/0304:19PM by Boandlgramer

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 06:32 PM
Surely you remember the Il-2 patch (though it had a brief life) for Il-2 with the seriously degraded La5FN performance (ooo that was boisterous), and there were also Very long La5 threads with the release of FB; many of these were unreasonable in the extreme (much akin to the FW190, Bf109, and P47 troublemakers). Of course there have also been fair and balanced 'VVS whiners', one where the Yak1b (I believe, forgive me for I don't know one Yak from another) had an incorrect (low) airspeed, of which Oleg was able to fix at a later date.

IMHO, its just like real life, there are reasonable, and unreasonable people in all walks of life. Being my own boss, I don't normally have to deal with unreasonable people, which is lucky for me I suppose.

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 06:37 PM
Yeap, you are incorrect.
It was Yak-1 and it was too fast.
Its been fixed in next patch.

AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 06:41 PM
USWhiners here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I didn't like the p47 roll rate.

I don't like the p40 roll rate.

I want the p39 to be worse


LOL

S!
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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 07:33 PM
Difference between VVS and Luftwhiner (among the ability to speak russian) is also the direct contact and influence with Oleg, making their will go through, leaving the LW-whiners whining in the corner.. right? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 07:54 PM
Vipez- wrote:
- Difference between VVS and Luftwhiner (among the
- ability to speak russian) is also the direct contact
- and influence with Oleg, making their will go
- through, leaving the LW-whiners whining in the
- corner.. right?

Oleg can handle English just fine. He also reads German quite well.

--AKD

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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 08:24 PM
VVS whiners don't post here.

They write it in russian in russian forum, and Oleg reads every post then answer because he is very good at Russian.



kidding. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 08:39 PM
I know an entire squad that won't fly the Hurricane any more because of the latest patch.

Does that count?

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 08:45 PM
- My problem is that I am not able to spot the VVS
- whiners !

This forum is mainly playground for the lend-lease (US aircraft) and Luftwaffe interest groups, a forum string search on .50cal, P-40, P-39 and P-47 with prefixes like sucks, bad, undermodelled, etc. should bring up some results. Look out for all-time classics like the "P-47 guns vs Tiger tank" thread, and prepare for some serious entertainment. For specific whining on "underperforming" russian equipment, please visit the according forums in the according language.

============================
The important thing in [tactics] is to suppress the enemys useful actions but allow his useless actions. However, doing this alone is defensive.

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Japanese Samurai and Philosopher
(More than 60 Victories in Hand-to-Hand combat.)

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 08:53 PM
I think what Roshko is more looking for is
A) quote from a "VVS Whiner" decrying the poor performance of their VVS plane
B) link to such a forum, or translation link to a forum where this can be found.


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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 09:03 PM
Oak_Groove wrote:
-- My problem is that I am not able to spot the VVS
-- whiners !
-
- This forum is mainly playground for the lend-lease
- (US aircraft) and Luftwaffe interest groups, a forum
- string search on .50cal, P-40, P-39 and P-47 with
- prefixes like sucks, bad, undermodelled, etc. should
- bring up some results. Look out for all-time
- classics like the "P-47 guns vs Tiger tank" thread,
- and prepare for some serious entertainment. For
- specific whining on "underperforming" russian
- equipment, please visit the according forums in the
- according language.
-
Hey u left out the the future one about the 51 when it comes out! Your right tho the 50 cal vs tiger was stupid, but fun!

Oh and Ya: Fix the P47D-27 roll, fix the superchager to be effective. Improve the convergence of the guns, Slower E bleed, Give us the M or N, and HVARS for the 47 and Mustang!

Ok? offical US whine to report. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 11:32 AM
clint-ruin wrote:
- I think what Roshko is more looking for is
- A) quote from a "VVS Whiner" decrying the poor
- performance of their VVS plane
- B) link to such a forum, or translation link to a
- forum where this can be found.


That's about right.

In ORR the atmos has been polluted for a long time by what I call luftwhiners. Again let me stress that to qualify as a anything-whiner you have to whine. Presenting your doubts in a calm manner with various references explaining WHY you have your doubts is not whining. That's debating.

I've been very annoyed by the tone over there - I've watched clint-ruins attempts of introducing reason, and I've seen how he has been called all sorts of names. Another poster called it character assasination, and I agree - clint-ruin HAS been the object of attempted character assasination.

What has annoyed me the most is that if not opposed and stopped it will be destructive to the whole Il2/FB affair. It is antagonizing the developers and any new (still innocent) reader will easily come to the conclusion that the german planes are practically unflyable.

The techniques used by some over there to get their points across are simply revolting. Generalisations is one technique. I myself have been called a VVS whiner, and thats handy. "Don't listen to Roshko - he is nothing but a VVS whiner, case over". So I wanted to SEE this group that I am being classified in - and I couldn't find it.

As time progress and my posts persists I expect the assaults on my character to intensify, and so far it looks like I am right in this assertion.

In one particular posters opinion I am now a 'partisan' and a 'liar'. I am wasting bandwidth with idiotic posts - and I am rejecting ANY changes that betters the 109s. Another poster thinks that I may enjoy socialist regimes and being ordered around, although I have never uttered anything to that effect (and of course I find all these notions ridiculous). Oh - my motives have also been 'defined'. I am simply trying to 'defend poor Oleg'. Where these posters gets these 'facts' is apparently not relevant.

This behaviour is common among children, and it is excusable because they are children. The problem is that the more this grows and the more the underhanded acceptance of half-lies, personal attacks and sweeping generalisations is seen among adults - the more this whole thing is going to look like fascism to me - and you know what ? I don't like fascism !

OK - now before anybody concludes that because I don't like fascism I must be a commie - I DONT LIKE COMMUNISM EITHER. However those informed in history of political ideas will know that there is a BIG difference between communism the ideology and communism the system Soviet/North Korea/North Vietname etc. had.

The only thing there is to do is step-by-step asking the relevant questions. Clint_ruin has been doing that for a while - and I can't remember all the things that he has been called, pompeous - I think 'idiot' and self-righteous (I cant offhand remember them all - they're many - and they're not nice)

The Luftwhiners apparently has this force opposing them called the VVS-whiners (Porta_ has a post about it in this forum if you surprisingly should fail to know what I mean). Because they are VVS whiners - they are guilty of exactly the same sins as the Luftwhiners only with a different outset. Therefore the Luftwhiners are not that bad - in fact they are also victims of underhanded tactics, so you see - what they do is no less than what is being done to them.

My problem still is 'WHO ARE THESE FAWKING VVS-WHINERS?'

The idea of inventing an exteriour enemy to divert attention away from own doings is not new. The idea of 'branding' opponents with name-calling is not new. The idea of misinterpreting their motives is not new. The idea of repeating statements to the point where they get accepted as truth is not new. One of the best known incarnations of these ideas is known as Nazism.

C!

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XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 03:26 PM
Like I said, you wont find many VVS whiners.

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 05:13 PM
What have you had to whinne about?

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XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 05:18 PM
D13-th_Hamm109 wrote:
- What have you had to whinne about?

Yes, I wonder this too, why would exist a VVS whiner since all russian planes climb much better than they should, half of them turn better than in reality, all Bf-109 do not climb according to the stats and turn slower than they should.

We will see a lot of VVS whining when those errors will be corrected. Until then enjoy FB Balanced Edition.


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XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 05:53 PM
What about the "I can't find no VVS whiner" whiner?




JG14_Josf

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 06:16 PM
So I'll chalk that up as one myth expelled then ?

In fact there aren't really any VVS Whiners...

At present of course

They'd prolly crawl out from under the rock if Oleg were to implement the charts Cube has presented - If they get as annoying as some of the Luftwhiners has been, crapping on the sim and the community - we'll have to protest them too. Right now ORR again seems a place of honest and upright debate.

Meanwhile I am still tapping my fingers over Cubes charts and findings. There are 100 ways to produce charts - and 100 ways to read them. Cube has a very solid attempt of finding the real things - I hope something constructive will come out of it. Oh - yeah - even if that means even more crappy performance on my already inferiour '41 planes (these are the planes I mostly fly)

C!

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XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 06:37 PM
Well I'm pretty much a Johnny come lately to this, so I can't say too much about it! I will say for clint-ruin I have a good deal of respect! What you and jetstream100 did with niewview was a great peace of work and is exactly what this community should be used for (Salute) but I think there are some real problems with some of these planes; I don't know its bias? Seems it would be imposable for one man (Oleg) to over see every flight model in FB. That's not to say someone on the team isn't fudging the numbers a bit, but even this makes no since as the swings in performance from patch to patch are pretty wild? I don't know, will have to wait and see? I hope it's all sorted out with the next patch, and this sim becomes as challenging and exiting for everyone as it should be! So maybe cut us (Luftwhinners) some slack.. No ones asking for CFS 2 UFO FM.. just a chance to swap lead..

<img src="http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/D13-Hamm109 copy.jpg"

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 07:05 PM
JG14_Josf wrote:
- What about the "I can't find no VVS whiner" whiner?


LOL - he shouldn't be too hard to find /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

> just a chance to swap lead..

We all want the best I hope, meanwhile I can assure you - I have more jerrie lead in my arse than I'd care to discuss /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

C!

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Message Edited on 09/27/0306:14PM by ROSHKO_69.GIAP

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 07:38 PM
Yea! that lead do sting.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 08:29 PM
Iris47 wrote:
- I know an entire squad that won't fly the Hurricane
- any more because of the latest patch.
-
- Does that count?

No, because the Hurricane has been put back in it's place, the early plane sets. The Mk.II series should never have been able to outfly late-model planes.

LOL, damn...We had the Hurri banned for being too good in the beginning and now a squad won't fly it because it's too bad now./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Personally, I think the Hurri is better than it was. It works great in early plane sets and is a joy to fly. Aside from the issues about whether it should have more flap settings or mixture control or what not, it's still my bird of choice in '41 servers when I'm on the VVS side./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 08:31 PM
Now, if only the Hispanos would shoot as far as the SHVAKS on the field mod, we'd be cooking./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

_______________________________________
çk?¯kT 2003**