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FI.Snaphoo
08-14-2004, 04:25 AM
A few days ago, I ran an offline mission, and I was in a pretty intense dogfight (only lost one in my flight) and I decided to go land my plane at my "base". I was so proud when at the end of the runway I had landed a one wheeled landing, kept it together and actually survived! Keep in mind that landing has never been anything I've ever been good at, and I've only owned this game for about a month total. Long break between last flight sim.

Yesterday, ran a similar scenario. With similar results. The end had me on my belly. This time I decided to pay a bit more attention to the landing bit, and I F2'd out of my plane just in time to see both sides of my landing gear fall off! I didn't think I was going that fast, but apparently I was going faster than my, P-51 (first time) or, P-38's landing gear could handle.

I feel I should add that in both cases I was below 25% on throttle, and had full "Landing" flaps down when attempting landing. Looking at that, it looks way fast, but at the time it seemed like I was falling out of the sky at less than 25%.

How fast should I be going to get a more positive result when I land? I know there are subtle differences between planes, but there should be at least a similar ball park throttle percentage, or something right? Thanks for any help at all....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/JakeGM/GMSquadron/Snaphoo1.gif

FI.Snaphoo
08-14-2004, 04:25 AM
A few days ago, I ran an offline mission, and I was in a pretty intense dogfight (only lost one in my flight) and I decided to go land my plane at my "base". I was so proud when at the end of the runway I had landed a one wheeled landing, kept it together and actually survived! Keep in mind that landing has never been anything I've ever been good at, and I've only owned this game for about a month total. Long break between last flight sim.

Yesterday, ran a similar scenario. With similar results. The end had me on my belly. This time I decided to pay a bit more attention to the landing bit, and I F2'd out of my plane just in time to see both sides of my landing gear fall off! I didn't think I was going that fast, but apparently I was going faster than my, P-51 (first time) or, P-38's landing gear could handle.

I feel I should add that in both cases I was below 25% on throttle, and had full "Landing" flaps down when attempting landing. Looking at that, it looks way fast, but at the time it seemed like I was falling out of the sky at less than 25%.

How fast should I be going to get a more positive result when I land? I know there are subtle differences between planes, but there should be at least a similar ball park throttle percentage, or something right? Thanks for any help at all....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/JakeGM/GMSquadron/Snaphoo1.gif

TheGozr
08-14-2004, 04:34 AM
Throttle 0% and try to go smooth below 200/180,Approch with a almost flat angle , almost on glading style, you can make your flaps on landing position and just when you touch ground quick change your flaps on raised position, the plane will be much more stable and will much less able to rebound.

and cut engine.

try that way.. because it's a good way to do it.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/images/IOCompetition.jpg <--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

FI.Snaphoo
08-14-2004, 04:49 AM
I'll give that a shot on my next mission. Thanks!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/JakeGM/GMSquadron/Snaphoo1.gif

Tully__
08-14-2004, 04:53 AM
Some posts I made on:

I-16 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=992101142&r=441102142#441102142)

Fw190 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=296109103&r=276102203#276102203)

Spitfire (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=138100903&r=471102903#471102903)

The P-63 is a real challenge... (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=776109724&r=798102824#798102824)

A selection of tracks with takeoff/landing demos (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=619100384&r=693103384#693103384)

And I-16 again.... (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=701101306&r=194101306#194101306) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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Tully

FI.Snaphoo
08-14-2004, 04:56 AM
Very nice! thanks again!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/JakeGM/GMSquadron/Snaphoo1.gif

Tully__
08-14-2004, 05:23 AM
If you have a special request I'll happily record more tracks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

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Tully

Chuck_Older
08-14-2004, 06:42 AM
Just so happens I have a Mustang Flight Handbook in front of me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif


***************
Descent:

Before descent, turn windsheild defroster control knob ON. Decent may be carried out at any safe speed down to the recommended margin of about 25 percent above stalling speed. With the landing gear and flaps up, the glide is fairly flat with the nose very high [meaning you are blind for miles in front of you, basically~Chuck] Forward visibility is poor in this condition, and in traffic areas, a series of mild "S" turns should be employed to prevent possible collision> Lowering the flaps or landing gear, or both, greatly increases the gliding angle and rate of descent.

Normal landing:

[some info related to a chart which I cannot reproduce here easily~Chuck]...Use continous back pressure on the stick to obtain a tail-low attitude for actual tochdown [the flare out~Chuck]. because of the wide landing gear and locked tail wheel[see note below~Chuck], landing roll characteristics are excellent on this airplane. Minimize use of brakes on ground roll....[info on clearing runway~Chuck]


Approach and Landing procedure:

Before entering landing pattern:
1) fuel tank to fullest internal tank
2)check booster pump switch-"on"
3)mixture- "normal"
4)propeller-2700 rpm
5)oil and coolant shutters-automatic

landing gear handle "down" below 170mpg IAS
WARNING do not change gear position until cycle is completed as gear may get out of proper sequence

Check gear position by use of warning lights,horn, and hydraulic pressure

flaps down 15* [three settings in FB] to give steeper approach if desired

recheck gear and flaps[lock tailwheel as well- i guess 'locked' is default on the real plane~Chuck]

throttle closed when landing is assured

flaps down full at altitude of at least 400 feet (below 165 mph IAS)

120 MPH at edge of field

Flare out [not the flare gun, lol]

touch down 90 MPH IAS

Immediately after landing:
1) open canopy
2) open coolant and oil flaps
3) raise [wing] flaps
4) trim tabs-"neutral"
5) prop control- full "increase"
6) booster pump switch-"off"

*************************

That's how they really did it. Of course, this assumes the Military approach from about 5 miles out, passing the airfeild on your left, and making a 180* descending turn to the runway

*****************************
Killers in America work seven days a week
~ Clash

mortoma
08-14-2004, 11:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGozr:
Throttle 0% and try to go smooth below 200/180,Approch with a almost flat angle , almost on glading style, you can make your flaps on landing position and just when you touch ground quick change your flaps on raised position, the plane will be much more stable and will much less able to rebound.

and cut engine.

try that way.. because it's a good way to do it.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/images/IOCompetition.jpg &lt;--http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Here
we go again with the "raise your flaps as soon as you touch down" stuff!!! This is not a good technique. I never do that, never need to. FB landing is similar to real life landings in that you are better off to leave you flaps down until you slow down to taxiing speed. Leave them down to help act as brakes to slow you down and shorten your landing roll. With full flaps in FB, as in real life in 99.999% of real planes, full flaps give you way more drag than lift. People mistakenly believe if they raise their flaps right away, they will "settle" down on the runway better because they are reducing lift. Not so, your lift with full flaps is about the same or even less than no flaps at all. If you land with one notch of flaps, or less than 20 degrees in real life, then it's a different story. In that case you have way more lift than drag, so it might actually be a good idea to raise them in that case. But if you have full flaps, NEVER raise them until you are really slow. And also, if you 're are still going fast down the runway, during the transition from full flaps to no flaps, the flaps will transition through 20 degress and fully raised, where you have more lift than drag, this may want to loft the plane up again. If you notice, when you fly in a jet, the captain or first officer will never raise the flaps or lower the speed brakes until they about to turn onto a taxi way. There is a reason they do it that way.

[This message was edited by mortoma on Sat August 14 2004 at 10:35 AM.]

TheGozr
08-14-2004, 12:22 PM
In the sims ..

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/images/IOCompetition.jpg &lt;--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

[This message was edited by TheGozr on Sat August 14 2004 at 11:31 AM.]

FI.Snaphoo
08-14-2004, 06:12 PM
Just looking for a way to land and not crash in the game guys.... Not intending to start an argument on how they "really do it". Thanks for all of the help thus far.

Tully, if you could throw down a track of a P-38 landing that would be cool. I'm not fully comfortable with the trike landing. Unless it's in the enigmatically named quick0002.zip file. In which case I'll have it soon.

Thanks for all the help.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/JakeGM/GMSquadron/Snaphoo1.gif

Tully__
08-14-2004, 06:56 PM
P-38 coming up. The special condition with trikes is that the front wheel must not land before the rear wheels (hence the P-63 being a real challenge, the front strut is really long). Link will be here in less than an hour provided my webspace cooperates in the upload http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Edit: Here 'tis (http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/P38Landing.zip) I must be on a roll, a text book example http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Tully

[This message was edited by Tully__ on Sat August 14 2004 at 06:26 PM.]

Tully__
08-14-2004, 07:30 PM
BTW, the quick002.ntrk is the same file as that linked in the Spitfire example IIRC.

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FI.Snaphoo
08-15-2004, 05:37 AM
Thanks! That was really helpful... I hope that I will be that smooth eventually...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/JakeGM/GMSquadron/Snaphoo1.gif

Chuck_Older
08-15-2004, 07:44 AM
Um, that post of mine was word for word from the flight manual.

It was intended to help you. Clearly, it lists speeds on approach, speeds slower than many Il*2 pilots think.

It took a little effort to type that up for you.

The message I just got was, "don't help me Chuck"

Your wish is my command http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/myp51.jpg
Killers in America work seven days a week~
Clash

Tully__
08-15-2004, 08:02 AM
snaphoo, you're welcome.

Chuck_Older, those speeds are real close to what I'd worked out as best for the P-51 by trial & error, thanks for the confirmation http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

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Chuck_Older
08-15-2004, 08:06 AM
Just so long as it helps SOMEbody, Tully.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/myp51.jpg
Killers in America work seven days a week~
Clash

T_O_A_D
08-15-2004, 08:18 AM
If you will go to our website (located in my sig) and then go to the pilots pages then scroll down to the bottom you will see <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Total flight checks In the Cockpit complete: 20
View Tracks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> click "View Tracks" then you can download tracks of the test flights, Them and I have done in individual planes. No they are not perfect, but you will learn from example. I won't host them if they tear anything up, or drive off the runway,or taxi way. Oh and all mine are done from inside the pit, no outside views. Tenmmike really liked my 109z one, for all thats worth. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
Commanding Officer of the 131st_VFW (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

[This message was edited by T_O_A_D on Sun August 15 2004 at 07:48 AM.]

michapma
08-15-2004, 08:30 AM
mortoma, when the manual says "immediately after landing" I don't read that as meaning immediately after touchdown. "After landing" to my ear means before taxiing to the parking area. There's no reason to fool with flap configuration on the rollout, and I don't believe the manual is recommending it.

Chuck, I'd say mortoma was reacting more to stuff he's read earlier than to you. Personally, I always appreciate such factual responses.

snaphoo, I have written a fair amount of material in the section on landings that might be helpful to you. Click on the user's guide link in my sig and download the PDF on the download page. In general, you want to use a slow speed. Safe gear extension speed is typically about 300 kph (not mph), and approach speed (different from landing speed) about 140-180 kph. If you broke your gear off I'm surprised you didn't jam your flaps. Stick with the numbers posted in the flight manual (in mph).

Tully, why dont' you submit some tracks on different subjects for the user's guide? I'm sure you've got plenty of useful stuff!

Cheers,
Mike

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)
But we are all that way: when we know a thing we have only scorn for other people who don't happen to know it. - Mark Twain, Personal Recollections of Joan of Arc

Tully__
08-15-2004, 08:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by michapma:

Tully, why dont' you submit some tracks on different subjects for the user's guide? I'm sure you've got plenty of useful stuff!

Cheers,
Mike
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mike, I really only make tracks when I'm too lazy to type a long winded explanation (it's more fun than typing, not quicker http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) but you're welcome to appropriate all those I've already linked. There's a post further up this thread with links to several other threads in which I've posted other track links. I think they're nearly all included in the "A selection of tracks..." link.

If you're interested, there's another one demonstrating the parking precision that can be achieved using differential braking posted here (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=26310365&m=400108324&r=682100015#682100015) in the PF forum.

If you have any special needs let me know and I'll get to work, but don't ask for aerobatic demos, I'm a klutz when it comes to precision aerobatics http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

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Chuck_Older
08-15-2004, 09:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by michapma:


Chuck, I'd say mortoma was reacting more to stuff he's read earlier than to you. Personally, I always appreciate such factual responses.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I like reading the real info myself, as I find it can give me a starting point to look at what I'm doing wrong, even if the flight model is way off in the sim.

But Motorma already know how to land, I think http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I was responding to this:
Just looking for a way to land and not crash in the game guys.... Not intending to start an argument on how they "really do it".

I don't want to argue about that and I won't. I'll just say that if anyone thinks that "how they really did it" won't help in FB, then they should re-think how much help they might need.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/myp51.jpg
Killers in America work seven days a week~
Clash

WTE_Galway
08-15-2004, 06:12 PM
basically start by trying to fly to the threshold gradually adding flaps and dropping gear using throttle to maintain the desired approach speed (I tend to land at 180 kmh)

once you cross the threshold cut throttle (in some heavier planes you still need a few percent of throttle with full flaps with others zero)

now the trick bit .. with throttle cut focus on the end of the runway and TRY NOT TO LAND .. visualise yourself trying to fly just off the runway .. the plane should gently settle as you apply more and more backstick in an effort to stay off the runway

if you do hit too hard and bounce apply just a touch of throttle to flatten the bounce and then cut it agian

FI.Snaphoo
08-16-2004, 02:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Um, that post of mine was word for word from the flight manual.

It was intended to help you. Clearly, it lists speeds on approach, speeds slower than many Il*2 pilots think.

It took a little effort to type that up for you.

The message I just got was, "don't help me Chuck"

Your wish is my command
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That wasn't the message that I threw out there, funny you should get that one. If you were talking to me with your comment, would you perhaps go back to where I thanked *ALL* for their help so far. I'm sorry I didn't single you out and thank you for your very informative section on the P-51.

Thank you Chuck for your very informative instruction on the P-51.

If you still have no desire to help the next time I have a question of some kind, then that is totally on you.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/JakeGM/GMSquadron/Snaphoo1.gif

PsykoOps
08-16-2004, 07:43 AM
I had trouble with landings, then I looked in the training tracks 109 and il-2 landing and since then no more problems.

BinaryFalcon
08-16-2004, 08:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:

Here we go again with the "raise your flaps as soon as you touch down" stuff!!! This is not a good technique. I never do that, never need to. FB landing is similar to real life landings in that you are better off to leave you flaps down until you slow down to taxiing speed. Leave them down to help act as brakes to slow you down and shorten your landing roll. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not correct.

While raising the flaps after touchdown won't specifically help the aircraft "settle" on the ground much better with respect to bouncing into the air again, that's not the point of raising the flaps after touchdown.

The point is to greatly reduce your stopping distance.

Full flaps do create a lot of drag, however, they also create a significant amount of lift. The point of raising the flaps is to get all the weight that the wings are still carrying transferred to the wheels. Wheels with more weight on them can have their brakes applied more heavily without locking them up, which in turn slows the plane down more quickly.

While the additional drag of full flaps would contribute to aerobraking to no small degree, the extra lift produced that keeps the weight off the main wheels for longer will actually create a net increase in stopping distance.

Now if you have no functional brakes at all, you'd obviously be best off (in a trike), settling on the mains, aerobraking by holding off the nose as long as possible, and leaving in full flaps. That's about as draggy as you'll be able to make it, and since you won't have brakes to assist in slowing down, more drag is what you want.

For regular brake assisted max performance landings though, you'll want to get those flaps up as soon as is practical.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you notice, when you fly in a jet, the captain or first officer will never raise the flaps or lower the speed brakes until they about to turn onto a taxi way. There is a reason they do it that way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Neglecting for the moment that jets are operated significantly differently than pistons, the reasons they do that tend to have more to do with:

1. Generally, they don't land on runways that are that marginal.

2. For safety's sake it's generally considered better to not play with the flaps during rollout due to a fear that the crew will accidentally raise the gear lever instead.

3. Jets already have thrust reversers, anti-skid/lock brakes and most importantly for this discussion - spoilers, which are capable of killing the lift of the wing almost completely, no matter what the flap setting.

The extra drag from full flaps has little to nothing to do with why they're kept down on rollout.

[This message was edited by BinaryFalcon on Mon August 16 2004 at 08:08 AM.]

FI.Snaphoo
08-16-2004, 05:14 PM
Thank you for that, very insightful, bit of information.

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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/JakeGM/GMSquadron/Snaphoo1.gif

WTE_Galway
08-16-2004, 05:39 PM
one minor points

in RL the only time I ever touched flaps before roll out was when a touch and go was likely as you do not want to take off again with full flaps out


and a hint

the easiest way to practice landings is to create a multiplayer "start in air" dogfight server (you can still do this offline there will just be you and no-one else in it) this spawns you immediately over an airfield every time you land and hit refly

BfHeFwMe
08-16-2004, 06:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mortoma:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGozr:
Throttle 0% and try to go smooth below 200/180,Approch with a almost flat angle , almost on glading style, you can make your flaps on landing position and just when you touch ground quick change your flaps on raised position, the plane will be much more stable and will much less able to rebound.

and cut engine.

try that way.. because it's a good way to do it.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/images/IOCompetition.jpg &lt;--http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Here
we go again with the "raise your flaps as soon as you touch down" stuff!!! This is not a good technique. I never do that, never need to. FB landing is similar to real life landings in that you are better off to leave you flaps down until you slow down to taxiing speed. Leave them down to help act as brakes to slow you down and shorten your landing roll. With full flaps in FB, as in real life in 99.999% of real planes, full flaps give you way more drag than lift. People mistakenly believe if they raise their flaps right away, they will "settle" down on the runway better because they are reducing lift. Not so, your lift with full flaps is about the same or even less than no flaps at all. If you land with one notch of flaps, or less than 20 degrees in real life, then it's a different story. In that case you have way more lift than drag, so it might actually be a good idea to raise them in that case. But if you have full flaps, NEVER raise them until you are really slow. And also, if you 're are still going fast down the runway, during the transition from full flaps to no flaps, the flaps will transition through 20 degress and fully raised, where you have more lift than drag, this may want to loft the plane up again. If you notice, when you fly in a jet, the captain or first officer will never raise the flaps or lower the speed brakes until they about to turn onto a taxi way. There is a reason they do it that way.

[This message was edited by mortoma on Sat August 14 2004 at 10:35 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong, there is a reason, emergency procedures may require an aircraft to raise flaps upon touch down. Normally not, but say have combat damage, or a run away prop requiring higher approach speeds at half or less flaps. First thing upon touch down will be raising flaps provided they still work. You forgot about ground effect and the doubling of lift, and flaps are also normally designed as a high lift device.

The reason crews raise flaps before hitting a taxi way at any time is because flaps down on taxi is an international duress signal, has zilch to do with flight.