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Fangio11
03-17-2004, 07:44 PM
I flew Warbirds online since the beta, but have only been flying IL2FB for a couple of months and online several weeks since AEP. ITS GREAT! The best flight sim by far i have ever played!

I have one complaint.... but its a big one. I hate icons. There is just nothing "realistic" at all about a giant neon sign hanging over an airplane. Its stupid, looks ridiculous and is unfortunately often necessary.

I have played on many full realism servers that have no icons. Sure, its possible to play this way and even fun. BUT... its not realistic either. The aircraft, when viewed at any distance away at all and when over land are basically invisible. The image you get at medium to long range of an enemy plane (or friendly for that matter) when viewed from above with the earth as a background is horrid.

I have been intently viewing an enemy plane from above while he was flying over the water. While I am watching closely.... he crosses the coast. Poof. Gone. Even when looking at him intently and concentrating on the image, he is just gone in the background. This is just wrong. No camo is that good. The movement would be visible.

So, I would not complain without offering a suggestion to address this. Something better than icons. This is something I actually have seen work well before. Many years ago.... the warbirds team did some tweaks to the plane images as viewed from longer ranges that worked extremely well re identification:

Flickering. Make the dots and tiny plane images flicker with different colors when viewed from intermediate to longer ranges. The flickering color should be consistent with the primary coloring of that planes national markings. Thus, VVS planes would flicker a red marking. German planes would flicker white/black. US planes would flicker blue/white. Brit planes would flicker red/blue.

By a flickering I dont mean some giant flashing thing. ITs subtle. Its integrated into the tiny little plane image. You still have to look for the images... but the flickering effect makes tracking a moving image much easier and prevents the terrain background from totally masking the aircraft image.

I really think that if done correctly, this type of effect could make full realism settings.... well, much closer to true full realism!

Oleg... is this possible? Any interest into attempting it?


Fang

Fangio11
03-17-2004, 07:44 PM
I flew Warbirds online since the beta, but have only been flying IL2FB for a couple of months and online several weeks since AEP. ITS GREAT! The best flight sim by far i have ever played!

I have one complaint.... but its a big one. I hate icons. There is just nothing "realistic" at all about a giant neon sign hanging over an airplane. Its stupid, looks ridiculous and is unfortunately often necessary.

I have played on many full realism servers that have no icons. Sure, its possible to play this way and even fun. BUT... its not realistic either. The aircraft, when viewed at any distance away at all and when over land are basically invisible. The image you get at medium to long range of an enemy plane (or friendly for that matter) when viewed from above with the earth as a background is horrid.

I have been intently viewing an enemy plane from above while he was flying over the water. While I am watching closely.... he crosses the coast. Poof. Gone. Even when looking at him intently and concentrating on the image, he is just gone in the background. This is just wrong. No camo is that good. The movement would be visible.

So, I would not complain without offering a suggestion to address this. Something better than icons. This is something I actually have seen work well before. Many years ago.... the warbirds team did some tweaks to the plane images as viewed from longer ranges that worked extremely well re identification:

Flickering. Make the dots and tiny plane images flicker with different colors when viewed from intermediate to longer ranges. The flickering color should be consistent with the primary coloring of that planes national markings. Thus, VVS planes would flicker a red marking. German planes would flicker white/black. US planes would flicker blue/white. Brit planes would flicker red/blue.

By a flickering I dont mean some giant flashing thing. ITs subtle. Its integrated into the tiny little plane image. You still have to look for the images... but the flickering effect makes tracking a moving image much easier and prevents the terrain background from totally masking the aircraft image.

I really think that if done correctly, this type of effect could make full realism settings.... well, much closer to true full realism!

Oleg... is this possible? Any interest into attempting it?


Fang

Chris_Zakrewsky
03-18-2004, 12:35 AM
Very good point indeed.

Flickering (or rather pulsing) should easily solve this.

Keep in mind that I have already seen posts saying "I never go beyond 1024x768 because of distance visibility issues". I can confirm that on my 1600x1200 visibility of distant planes is much worse than when going down to 800x600. Hardly an intent of Oleg...

Best regards,
/Chris Z.

LEXX_Luthor
03-18-2004, 10:15 AM
Better:: Player defined dot sizes are easy to program, a dot being a collection of one or more pixels. Enough pixels and you have a small circle, something for simmers with less vision and they can use No Icons too and one-pixel dots for the visual experts. Player decides how many dots. Vision varies so much among people that game developers are real stupid to overlook this.

Also the simmer should be able to input a variable or two to change the formula which calculates dot sizes with range to the target and hopefully target size.

But the flickering dot idea here may cause some simmers to faint at the joystick. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

__________________
"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

clint-ruin
03-18-2004, 10:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris_Zakrewsky:
Very good point indeed.

Flickering (or rather pulsing) should easily solve this.

Keep in mind that I have already seen posts saying "I never go beyond 1024x768 because of distance visibility issues". I can confirm that on my 1600x1200 visibility of distant planes is much worse than when going down to 800x600. Hardly an intent of Oleg...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure it's not Olegs intent either.

Probably more likely to be something to do with the way a lot of modern monitors "display" resolutions far above the number of individual pixels they can really represent.

I think the old Il-2 1.0 "dot" dots were a pretty good attempt at solving these kinds of issues, but it did kind of look like flycrap on the glass sometimes. Flickering might be one way to do it, or even something simple and hacky like making min-LOD textures cycle between pure black/pure white.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Fangio11
03-18-2004, 08:40 PM
The dot or circle idea I dont think would work. If you make the size user adjustable.... players will adjust it to maximum size immediatly to make the target as visible as possible and thus gain an edge. It may as well be an icon.

With the flickering.... the size of the image does not change from what it is now. The point is just to prevent the plane images from totally blending with the background, and to make ID as to likely nationality easier to intermediate to long range.

The flickering effect has to be done right. It has to be subtle. Small, very brief flashes of color flickering as with the light from the plane image. When done right, it looks realistic and does the ID job well. Remember: the flickering effect should not be a constant steady pulsing. It would flicker more or less depending on the angle of the view and the perspective of the target your viewing. Thus... the amount of flicker and its relative speed could tell you much about the angle at which you are seeing your target.

How about it Oleg?


Fang

Gunner_361st
03-19-2004, 09:25 AM
Seizure dots? I don't know about that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

How about sunlight reflecting off the glass of the cockpit? That'd be neat. Then again, that would only fix the problem for sunny missions.

As for identifying what nationality a country is by the color of the flicker, you might as well call those icons too. Far away, all you really see is a dot. You should have to and do require to get much closer before you can even tell what plane it is. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tracers are handy for that as well, but that means someone is getting shot at. Being able to turn off tracers would be pretty neat in my book. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1039.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
03-19-2004, 09:29 AM
Well for the 5% onwhiners you can turn off the user adjusted dot size, or the server can set the formula for dot size. Some people cannot see the dots with their eyesight. You will be amazed at the variability of "normal" human eyesight.

Also, the ability to see single grey (not black) dots is a learned skill, and is actually kinda like the skills real pilots learn, well the ones that survive enough missions. For the FB Newbie user dot sizes would be helpful...at least for the 95% offwhiners.



__________________
"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif