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View Full Version : Is it me or has the AI changed to B&Z for e.g. Bf109?



NerdConnected
01-24-2004, 01:58 AM
*,

Oleg said they only changed the landing AI, but I've got the feeling they changed a bit more than that.

Yesterday I flew a mission around Smolensk in a I16 and got into a fight with 4 Bf109-f2's. I noticed that they did no longer try to T&B with me. They made wide circles and used their superior speed and climb capability. I was very hard to dodge them every time. I cannot remember that happening before.. (I'm not complaining. I actually like it ;-)

Futhermore I noticed the mig3 and the I16 looks like they became a bit more unstable.

Can someone confirm this?

Mark

"The German Army had become so used to having to no air support that they had a simple saying, "If the plane is silver or blue, it's an Allied plane. If it's invisible, it's ours." (EAW manual, The Fall of the Third Reich).

NerdConnected
01-24-2004, 01:58 AM
*,

Oleg said they only changed the landing AI, but I've got the feeling they changed a bit more than that.

Yesterday I flew a mission around Smolensk in a I16 and got into a fight with 4 Bf109-f2's. I noticed that they did no longer try to T&B with me. They made wide circles and used their superior speed and climb capability. I was very hard to dodge them every time. I cannot remember that happening before.. (I'm not complaining. I actually like it ;-)

Futhermore I noticed the mig3 and the I16 looks like they became a bit more unstable.

Can someone confirm this?

Mark

"The German Army had become so used to having to no air support that they had a simple saying, "If the plane is silver or blue, it's an Allied plane. If it's invisible, it's ours." (EAW manual, The Fall of the Third Reich).

S77th-brooks
01-24-2004, 02:27 AM
rgr your right they fly more like 109,s now way better ,i set the start at 5000 and went to 7000 AI was flying k4 and would not turn fight me ,TOO COOL

NerdConnected
01-24-2004, 02:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S77th-brooks:
rgr your right they fly more like 109,s now way better ,i set the start at 5000 and went to 7000 AI was flying k4 and would not turn fight me ,TOO COOL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this is the case, why would Maddox not mention it in their release notes? Maybe the code is not mature enough or we're now 'live' beta testers ;-)

I think I will make some one-on-one flights to see if we're right ;-)

"The German Army had become so used to having to no air support that they had a simple saying, "If the plane is silver or blue, it's an Allied plane. If it's invisible, it's ours." (EAW manual, The Fall of the Third Reich).

Fennec_P
01-24-2004, 03:33 AM
The notes have never had a complete list of the changes in the patches. Its probably not practical to list small things that were changed.

SeaFireLIV
01-24-2004, 04:53 AM
I must admit that I too was puzzled. For the size of the patch, the readme is quite brief. And yes, Jerry planes aren`t turning with me.

If this has been changed then good.

SeaFireLIV...
Slowly mutating into a Hurricane Ordnance Whiner...
http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/littlelaff.jpg

Xnomad
01-24-2004, 05:27 AM
Not only that I found the Mustang AI now dives straight to the ground, once I thought one was dead and was going to crash so I pulled off in search of the others. He must of pulled out at the very last second because I didn't get the kill message and when I checked he was flying low across the ground.

Another thing I noticed, although this is pre 1.22 is that a Yak pilot jettisoned his canopy but kept on flying, I gave up the chase as I thought he was going to bail but he didn't !

NerdConnected
01-24-2004, 05:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fennec_P:
The notes have never had a complete list of the changes in the patches. Its probably not practical to list small things that were changed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it's true they changed the T&B into B&Z, it's a quite significant change I think ;-). Still testing....

"The German Army had become so used to having to no air support that they had a simple saying, "If the plane is silver or blue, it's an Allied plane. If it's invisible, it's ours." (EAW manual, The Fall of the Third Reich).

robban75
01-24-2004, 10:28 AM
The D-9 AI pilots are still stupid. They always climb before an engagement, leaving them with no E at the merge, and they make those La-7 pull up's, but they can't turn like that so they just sitt there for a while with a high AoA and wondering why their plane doesn't turn. I can take out a D-9 AI with a Stuka, over and over again no problem. The AI La-7 and Ya-3 are far better at BnZ than any other AI plane in FB, and they are still the only fighters that put up any kind of fight, I've given up fighting against anything else, there's simply no contest. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/Dora-9-3.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

LEXX_Luthor
01-24-2004, 10:36 AM
Hey robban, I depend alot on AI and would be willing to find some way of standardizing tests. FMB for me because of its use in mission making and campaign making. Kursk map because its simple yet large enough for any possible AI use. Although Prokorovka would be simpler and still large enough. I like FMB because there are no limits to relative altitude advantages, and you can do any kind of engagement angles.

After Whining in Oleg's Recovery Room about AI engagement range always a constant 7km, I found that the range often depends on the angle of approach of two formations. Headon its 7km, but that is not always the case and is often much less.

I was (choke) wrong.

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robban75
01-24-2004, 10:59 AM
The AI seems to be aware of wether it's flying a turnfighter or BnZ fighter, but not all the time. All the BnZ fighters climb before the merge, even when meeting other BnZ fighters, P-51, Fw 190, Bf 109.
The Yak's and La's all proceed right ahead accelerating, but when they fly against a better turning aircraft(I-153) they sense this and begin climbing before the merge just like the Germans do when facing russian planes.
The German and American fighters needs a more effective AI, as they simply can't defend themselves like the russian planes, God knows they try to. They need the speed to survive, and they simply don't use it well enough.

http://members.chello.se/unni/Dora-9-3.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

LEXX_Luthor
01-24-2004, 11:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The AI seems to be aware of wether it's flying a turnfighter or BnZ fighter, but not all the time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What is a turn fighter?

In previous Patch 1.20, Zero tries to turn with I-153 Biplane, with predictable results. But in 1.21 Zero and Bf109 both seemed to extend a little more when fighting more maneuverable opponents.

I will experiment with Zero and I16, if they both BnZ the I153 then Oleg told the AI do relative comparison with the enemy before Choosing a fighting style (I-16s BnZ Ki27 in 1930s). I would hope the Bf109 turn fights against Pe~3 Edit--no, maybe not for historical reasons, when faced with a less maneuverable fighter, would Bf109 pilots turn?). I know that scenario is not common in the dogfight servers, but if Oleg did that, Awsum for the offwhiners, and that means we have AI that is truly flexible.

I just hope Oleg didn't tell his AI...

Bf109 you BnZ always.
I-16 you TnB always (historically incorrect).

__________________
RUSSIAN lexx website http://www.lexx.ufo.ru/members.shtml
Stanly is a moron, kai is a walking dead beet, Xev just want sex.

ucanfly
01-24-2004, 11:40 AM
I've been training with multiple AI LA7 aces for awhile and have recently tried against 109K4s. These guys are really hard to beat when flying a a P-51. A surprise since I had good luck against LA7s before. Someone else mentioned the K4 AI improvement since maybe 1.21.

The P-51 seems really slow to accelerate in a dive now for some reaason as well - LOL.

LEXX_Luthor
01-24-2004, 12:19 PM
Okay, a ~very~ interesting observation. Robban pointed out that Dora climbs before engaging La~7, presumably in head on engagement. Now, just found that headon 2 AI vs 2 AI...

Zero vs P40E....P40 climbs initially, Zero does not.
Zero vs I-153...Zero climbs initially, I-153 does not.
Zero vs Ki-84...Ki-84 climbs initially, Zero does not.
Zero vs P11c...Zero climbs initially, P11 does not.

Based on this limited set, the AI is told to climb if it is the less maneuverable fighter, or faster fighter. We don't know yet. But something is happening here.

Also, the Zeros still Rule over the Ki-84. However, because the AI extends more than in the series Patches 1.xy, you can reasonably compensate with the AI skill level.


Testing. When changing aircraft type in FMB, mouseclick on the third (final) waypoint, the one that angles down south. Don't touch the other waypoints, because sometimes you will move the waypoint by a few meters or tens of meters....clicking on the third waypoint helps keep the scenario as identical as possible except for the plane type.

[MAIN]
MAP Prokhorovka/load.ini
TIME 12.0
CloudType 0
CloudHeight 1500.0
army 1
playerNum 0
[Wing]
r0122
g0121
[r0122]
Planes 2
Skill 1
Class air.KI_84_IA
Fuel 100
weapons default
[r0122_Way]
NORMFLY 50000.00 40000.00 1000.00 300.00
NORMFLY 10000.00 40000.00 1000.00 300.00
NORMFLY 10000.00 30000.00 100.00 300.00
[g0121]
Planes 2
Skill 1
Class air.A6M5A
Fuel 100
weapons default
[g0121_Way]
NORMFLY 40000.00 40000.00 1000.00 300.00
NORMFLY 90000.00 40000.00 1000.00 300.00
NORMFLY 90000.00 30000.00 100.00 300.00
[NStationary]

[Bridge]
[House]

__________________
RUSSIAN lexx website http://www.lexx.ufo.ru/members.shtml
Stanly is a [B]moron, kai is a walking dead beet, Xev just want sex.

NerdConnected
01-24-2004, 03:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
The D-9 AI pilots are still stupid. They always climb before an engagement, leaving them with no E at the merge, and they make those La-7 pull up's, but they can't turn like that so they just sitt there for a while with a high AoA and wondering why their plane doesn't turn. I can take out a D-9 AI with a Stuka, over and over again no problem. The AI La-7 and Ya-3 are far better at BnZ than any other AI plane in FB, and they are still the only fighters that put up any kind of fight, I've given up fighting against anything else, there's simply no contest. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/Dora-9-3.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The LA7 and the Yak3 are the 'difficult' ones. Both are good T&B and B&Z fighters at low and medium altitude. What happens if they meet at e.g. 6000 meters or higher?

I'm happy about the AI fixes, but one thing is still not fixed in 1.22. The fights still tend to rapidly descend to ground level, so the relative performance advantage for fighters like the D9 will be gone. If AI fighters like the D9 can restrain themselves and maintain high altitude it will be a very good fighter.

"The German Army had become so used to having to no air support that they had a simple saying, "If the plane is silver or blue, it's an Allied plane. If it's invisible, it's ours." (EAW manual, The Fall of the Third Reich).

tsisqua
01-24-2004, 05:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fennec_P:
The notes have never had a complete list of the changes in the patches. Its probably not practical to list small things that were changed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but this is by no means a small thing. This is a very realistic improvement of the ai. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tsisqua

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