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fkluz
02-02-2004, 05:17 AM
I was playing IL2-Sturmovik and it's completely different game comparing to IL2 FB. Sturmovik is much much easier and tactics that worked there, doesn't work in FB.

I am flying German campaign with BF 109 (F4 at the moment) and I did a LOT quick mission for training.

I would appreciate very much if you can give me some advice on head to head attack i.e. positioning relatively to the enemy, altitude (should I be 500m or 2000m higher before the dive), distance (shod I start he dive 500m or 2 km), when to start the dive ...

Especially, If you could give me advice how to bring down IL2 (any modification with rear gunner).

In IL2-Sturmovik attack from 6 bellow works fine even with 4 aces in formation (with 109 G).

In FB I can hardly shot down one IL2 field mod if it's average using 6 bellow tactic. Rear gunner is deadly. Realistic? Hmmm... But anyway.

Any advice is more than welcomed, especially if you can tell me where I can find some tracks to download. Of course, I know it depends on the plane you are fighting against andy your plane, and that it is a matter of practice and so on, but is there any general rule (i.e. 30-60 deg dive, start from 500m but not further than 1km from the enemy. If the enemy plane is faster, than do that, if it is bigger than do that ...).

Thanks and salute.

fkluz
02-02-2004, 05:17 AM
I was playing IL2-Sturmovik and it's completely different game comparing to IL2 FB. Sturmovik is much much easier and tactics that worked there, doesn't work in FB.

I am flying German campaign with BF 109 (F4 at the moment) and I did a LOT quick mission for training.

I would appreciate very much if you can give me some advice on head to head attack i.e. positioning relatively to the enemy, altitude (should I be 500m or 2000m higher before the dive), distance (shod I start he dive 500m or 2 km), when to start the dive ...

Especially, If you could give me advice how to bring down IL2 (any modification with rear gunner).

In IL2-Sturmovik attack from 6 bellow works fine even with 4 aces in formation (with 109 G).

In FB I can hardly shot down one IL2 field mod if it's average using 6 bellow tactic. Rear gunner is deadly. Realistic? Hmmm... But anyway.

Any advice is more than welcomed, especially if you can tell me where I can find some tracks to download. Of course, I know it depends on the plane you are fighting against andy your plane, and that it is a matter of practice and so on, but is there any general rule (i.e. 30-60 deg dive, start from 500m but not further than 1km from the enemy. If the enemy plane is faster, than do that, if it is bigger than do that ...).

Thanks and salute.

Tully__
02-02-2004, 05:44 AM
For the IL2, shoot the radiator underneath the nose. Once it starts smoking, let it go, it will crash in a few minutes.

The best reference for air combat tactics in sims that I've come accross is the SimHQ Air Combat Library (http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html)

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Salut
Tully

HansKnappstick
02-02-2004, 05:55 AM
A short advice for Head-ons in a Bf-109:

don't.

fkluz
02-02-2004, 06:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansKnappstick:
A short advice for Head-ons in a Bf-109:

don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif)))))

So by this you say to use bf 109 only to try to park it on enemy's 6?

fkluz
02-02-2004, 06:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fkluz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansKnappstick:
A short advice for Head-ons in a Bf-109:

don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif)))))

So by this you say to use bf 109 only to try to park it on enemy's 6?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't want to send redface, but LOL, as new to this forum didn't realize that instant gremlins are turned on.

You answer really makes me louhg, short and simmple!

SeaFireLIV
02-02-2004, 06:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansKnappstick:
A short advice for Head-ons in a Bf-109:

don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, that`s exactly what I was going to say. Don`t.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/greypilots.jpg

HansKnappstick
02-02-2004, 06:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fkluz:


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif))))

So by this you say to use bf 109 only to try to park it on enemy's 6?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes I do, is it wrong?
...and yes, I am a noob...!

BTW, I also use the smiles _with_ a nose, since my own is quite remarkable...

ElfunkoI
02-02-2004, 07:11 AM
It's not a head-on if they stalled and you are coming in from anywhere from 3-12-9 o'clock in a dive on em. They can't pull up to shoot you because they already stalled. Or if they are at a low E state where they would stall if they did try to pull up and shoot you. But the 109 is just so fragile you don't want to give them a chance to shoot you. Just climb and keep them verticle, then they won't have the chance.

Rajvosa
02-02-2004, 07:14 AM
fkluz????


Do you mean the great Franjo Kluz?? Famous Yugoslav partizan pilot, killed in a Spitfire Mk V?

Golf GTI Edition 2.0 16v (Rest In Pieces!)

michapma
02-02-2004, 07:26 AM
One advantage the Bf 109 has over most of its contemporaries is superior speed and climb rate. Use these to keep out of range of your enemy and make high-speed attacks on them. This requires patience and the ability to keep your eye on the enemy's position. I would emphasize that you should not try to park your 109 on the enemy's six--use a high-speed attack. This can be from a dive or not.

It's right that a head-on attack in the 109 is not a good idea, however you can make front-quarter approaches work to your advantage. One possibility is to approach at high speed but at an angle where the opponent can't get a shot at you. After the merge the opponent will likely try to turn hard into you (even AI often do this) and lose energy. You can then use your excess speed to zoom up and come back down behind the enemy's 3-9 line.

Have a look here (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/tracks.htm) at some tracks, especially those made by JG14. JG14_Josf has a good understanding of tactics and has made some great tracks for the community.

If caught low and slow, the 109 is good at maneuvering in high angles of attack. It also seems to be able to burn speed quickly with barrel rolls and such. Only use this if you are in a desperate situation, caught low and slow.

Keep your speed high, don't turn at speeds below about 300kph, use high-speed approaches (especially at bombers with rear gunners). This is good advice for most any plane, but especially the 109.

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HansKnappstick
02-02-2004, 07:35 AM
That's good...
But for myself, I find that whenever I attack somebody (or be it an AI) from the front at an angle, they manage to turn it into a full head-on until I get to the shooting range.
To explain it a little bit more:
A yak is on my 6, I extend in a slight climb, he is at 2km distance, then I do a chandelle, and he is following my turn, so if I turn to him, I am on his 12 again - bad.

Even if I manage somehow to get on his 2 o'clock, he turns to me before I set my guns loose and destroys my radiator usually.

Please please Michapma tell me what I am doing wrong.

Therefore my usual tactics is a vertical separation followed by a slow Immelmann, while he does a hard Immelmann, thus I fall from above on him, then I can follow him in his split-esse and if I don't miss him (which happens most of the time) he's mine.

BP_Zip
02-02-2004, 07:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Have a look http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/tracks.htm at some tracks, especially those made by JG14. JG14_Josf has a good understanding of tactics and has made some great tracks for the community.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you!

Tracks are a great way to learn tactics. I have downloaded the ones you gave a link for, and will have a look.

Thanks again,

Zip

XyZspineZyX
02-02-2004, 10:03 AM
I'd say don't HO a STURMOVIK.

There are times when a HO pass on a bomber is a viable tactic. Against a B-17 in a box, for example. But a Sturmo has more forward firing weapons than a 109 and it is maneuverable enough to raise its nose and use them as you come flying right into it. That's a particularly stupid thing to do.

Generally, HOs are to be avoided IF you have any other option. I'll only use them if it's me against several bogies, and I'm so busy trying to save my own skin that I can't count on getting a rear aspect shot of my own. In that case, you take any shot you can get to try and even things up.

If you do have options, HOs are stupid: why give up a shot to take a shot? What if the other guy is a better or luckier shot than you? And in the case of the 109, with an inline engine that can be stopped immediately with one slug, why do it? Wait til you're behind the enemy and then fire away. Do the work to get a good shot instead of wasting ammo in a risky HO pass.

If I see a plane with options attempting a HO, it's my first sign that he's a dweeb and can be beaten pretty easily. I have a standard set of HO evasives that work 90% of the time, provided I see the HO coming with time to do something about it. Usually, if I get hit by an HO, it's because it happened so fast I didn't recognize it and flew right into it.

Blade_X__
02-02-2004, 10:07 AM
Micha, will those tracks work with 1.22?

michapma
02-02-2004, 10:38 AM
HansK, Have a look at the track called Energy game that Josf made. In it he is being pursued by a Mustang. He gets enough separation to do a turn (if you don't turn all you are doing is running away, which is viable but not the goal of our discusion http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). Instead of turning and doing a head-on with the Mustang, which would be near suicide, he does a lag turn, meaning he poings his nose somewhere behind the Mustang. He makes it at an angle that both prevents the Mustang from getting a clear shot at him and encourages the Mustang to turn hard to get onto his six. The Mustang takes the bait, turning hard and burning off a lot of speed. Josf's 109 still has speed, and in the following turn he performs a vertical maneuver that the Mustang no longer has the energy to follow through, leaving Josf in a position to come back down behind the Mustang and finish him off.

This is the distinction between a front-quarter approach and a frontal attack. You are not yet attacking, you are patiently moving toward checkmate...

The vertical maneuver Josf uses is probably a variation on the Immelman you describe. Encourage him to burn off his energy and then you are able to attack from above.

Blade_X_, the tracks work with 1.22. Unfortunately because of the gunfire playback problem the gunfire doesn't play back normally, but everything else works.

Cheers,
Mike

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crazyivan1970
02-02-2004, 11:05 AM
head on is a bad idea... in general http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

A.K.Davis
02-02-2004, 01:29 PM
In real life, a legitimate tactic depending on what aircraft you were in, although an inherently risky one. In FB, complete foolishness. The majority of pilots you face online will fly with a pure "kill, kill, kill" mindset, with no thought to survival. You will likely be rammed, even if you attempt to break. I don't know if is something with the gunsight on the La-5/7 series, or just the mindset of those who typically fly them, but getting rammed during a head-on is especially predictabe when facing these aircraft. My experience is almost always.

If you do chose to go head-on, the American aircraft make excellent platforms for this type of attack. The combination of no muzzle flash obstructing view, high ROF and "shotgun" effect of bullet dispersal virtually guaruntees a hit, and from head-on this is frequently crippling to the enemy.

--AKD

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GoodKn1ght
02-02-2004, 01:32 PM
head on is a good idea, if ur a good shot.

approach at the guys 11oclock so u dont ramm him. then snap shot using rudder as he passes to your left.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"
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BpGemini
02-02-2004, 01:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
head on is a bad idea... in general http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Unless you live and die by the P-39. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

crazyivan1970
02-02-2004, 02:03 PM
Especially headon with P-39 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Davea011
02-02-2004, 10:39 PM
Fkluz, consider the strengths of the aircraft you're flying before you go head to head. With most planes, head to head is (and should be) a last resort or, rarely, a surprise tactic against someone who's expecting something else from you.

As was already mentioned, the American planes are good at this sort of thing for several reasons. I wouldn't be afraid to take a Hurricane in most conditions for the same reasons -- I'm throwing more lead than the other guy is, accurately, and while my plane may get beat up, I'll probably do more damage than the other pilot and may just score a pilot kill. I fly the Sturmoviks a lot in single player and that's another plane I use to go head to head with often. The AI-controlled 109's usually take the bait (the fools) when I attempt it. The only reason I do so is because the 109's have that notorious glass jaw and substandard (in most vintages) armament, while the Sturmoviks can take frontal hits like a champ and sport good firepower. It's not unusual for me to take out two or three 109's on the initial merge -- they're not necessarily going down in flames, but they have suffered damage that's effectively removed them from the fight. It's very rare when they manage to do something similar back to me.

Lots of folks like head on attacks against bombers. From what I've read, it was historically a valid tactic. It never works for me. I'll score some hits but nothing worth bragging about. I prefer going against fighters this way. (Assuming I'm in an aircraft that's good at this sort of thing.)

Remember -- if you go head to head, you're basically giving both sides a very easy shot at a (usually) very vulnerable area. Make sure that you're either the better marksman, have more firepower, or are flying the more durable aircraft. (Preferably all three.) Even then, you might get rammed. The AI does it to me occasionally. It may not even be intentional...if you shoot up someone's AC badly enough, they're not going to be steering it very well. Be ready to get out of their way.

tttiger
02-02-2004, 10:56 PM
The only times HOs were used was in the Pacific against Japanese planes. Chennault encouraged them with the P-40s and Hellcats frequently used them. That's only because the Japanese planes were so fragile and the American planes were so tough.

They're very tempting and you will get some kills. I used them a lot when I was a noob (sevaral sims ago). I got kills and got myself killed a lot, too. But it is strictly a noob move.

I doubt you will find any book or article on tactics that recommends them. Lag pursuit is a good tactic and I use it a lot, but the whole point is to work yourself around to the enemy's 6:

"A close-in zero deflection shot is what you pray for. It is the easiest shot and you have the best chance of getting a kill.": Bud Anderson, pilot of "Old Crow" with 16.5 kills.

Fighter versus bomber is a whole other story, we're talking fighter versus fighter here.

I agree: Don't http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

[This message was edited by tttiger on Mon February 02 2004 at 10:05 PM.]

GoodKn1ght
02-02-2004, 11:16 PM
"I used them a lot when I was a noob (sevaral sims ago). "

werent you the guy complaining to oleg about locked cockpits and no externals? or you had an "idea" to make easy settings universal i forget. just wanted to be sure.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"
http://www.moggaassault.com/cheese/oh_snap.gif

MatuDa_
02-03-2004, 01:51 AM
Of course sometimes you may find yourself in a desperate position (outnumbered, damaged, in a seriously inferior plane, other dude has much more E and is not giving it up etc..) and a HO is your biggest chance.. There are several variations of HO that can tip the scales in your favor but only one (direct ho without evasion) is an easy one to pull off succesfully and usually the only one who wins that one is the grim reaper.

If you have a nimble plane with lots of mg:s you can shoot a burst across the oncoming planes flight path and barrel before he is in firing range. Often some bullets will hit and make the rest of the fight easier for you. This is a good tactic with a b239 and a p40 which both have good armament for HO but are no good in the recieving end.

Never do a HO if you have the upper hand.

fkluz
02-03-2004, 02:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MatuDa_:
Of course sometimes you may find yourself in a desperate position (outnumbered, damaged, in a seriously inferior plane, other dude has much more E and is not giving it up etc..) and a HO is your biggest chance.. There are several variations of HO that can tip the scales in your favor but only one (direct ho without evasion) is an easy one to pull off succesfully and usually the only one who wins that one is the grim reaper.

If you have a nimble plane with lots of mg:s you can shoot a burst across the oncoming planes flight path and barrel before he is in firing range. Often some bullets will hit and make the rest of the fight easier for you. This is a good tactic with a b239 and a p40 which both have good armament for HO but are no good in the recieving end.

Never do a HO if you have the upper hand.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
MatuDa_, English is not my first language, could you please explain me what the term "upper hand" means?

Thnx.

HansKnappstick
02-03-2004, 02:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fkluz:
MatuDa_, English is not my first language, could you please explain me what the term "upper hand" means?

Thnx.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
He meant "Don't try a head on if you are in a better situation than the opponent".

Jombala
02-03-2004, 05:29 AM
Everybody is talking about not doing a HO, but what is the best tactics to avoid it when your enemy is 4 km in front of you and going for it (IA in QMB for example)?

HansKnappstick
02-03-2004, 05:47 AM
Create a horizontal or (better) a vertical separation. For example, you can try to perform an Immelmann about 1.5km in front of him - he will not be able to follow you that fast up.

michapma
02-03-2004, 07:22 AM
If your enemy is 4km away and headed toward you, move your nose away from him so there can be no head-on. In a full-real server (where the opponent might lose sight of you) and depending on the situation, you might go into a shallow dive and then angle off a bit so that you will be against the horizon and harder to see, whereas he will be against the sky and easy to see. This however increases the enemy's energy advantage. Better is probably to climb but keep at least maneuvering speed (roughly 300kph in most aircraft), and put your plane at an angle. The opponent will be able to point his nose at you, but you will be entering basically a merge situation and you will begin your maneuvers before he can line up a shot.

Basically, to avoid a head-on, you just need to go at some angle other than straight-on, and when nearing gun range make some slight changes that will prevent a gun solution and set up a maneuver. It is best to see what the enemy will do before you initiate your maneuver, don't go into the approach with your maneuver already planned out. Try to use the merge to gain an energy advantage, instead of just going for angles. This is of course dependent on the plane types, but even in say an I-153 versus a 109 you don't want to just turn hard into the 109, that will burn all your energy.

Make any sense?

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flyingskid2
02-03-2004, 09:47 AM
English usage note: Head to Head does not necessarily mean Head-On.

JG14_Josf
02-03-2004, 09:56 AM
Fighter Combat by Robert Shaw (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0870210599/qid=1075822800/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-0120494-1776032)


Tracks (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/tracks.htm)


Head to Head (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=head+to+headhttp://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=head+to+head)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Main Entry: head-to-head
Function: adverb or adjective
: in a direct confrontation or encounter usually between individuals<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've read that not many people in the real world have documented instructions on how to fight Air Combat. Some have. Check out Robert Shaw's book if at all possible. If the idea is to learn how to fight Air Combat then the book Fighter Combat is a solid investment.

Two chapters in Fighter Combat cover One-versus-one maneuvering. The first Chapter on this subject covers similar aircraft described as: "fighters having essentially equal performance capabilities in all areas...it is logical to consider performance within 10 percent to be similar in most cases"

The other chapter on this subject concerns Dissimilar aircraft.

It should be clear, of course, that combat tactics must take into account the relative performance capabilities of the planes in combat.

Some truths, however, apply to any head to head combat. Examples:
The first pilot to see the opponent has an advantage.
The faster and higher plane has an advantage.
The plane possitioned behind has and advantage, while the plane possitioned ahead has a dissadvantage.

When tactics are considered it is useful to take away all the obvious advantages and imagine the hypothetical combat situation to be equal, where neither plane nor pilot is holding an advantage. Once tactics have been thought out in a equal situation the tactician can move onto considerations of combat in situations of relative advantage.

Air Combat is the goal of seeking and holding enough advantage to defeat the opponent.

How is that done?

Going back to the fundamental equal situation where no advantage exists the two combatants are flying the same speed, at the same altitude, and they have the same relative possition i.e. Each pointing at the other in a Head-on Merge.

What happens next?

Each pilot will make a consious decision to manevuer. The path that each plane carves in the sky, relative to the opponents, can fall into three catagories; Offensive, Defensive, and Neutral maneuvering.

Offensive maneuvering is when one plane takes advantage, Defensive maneuvering is when one plane gives up advantage and neutral maneuvering is when niether plane gains advantage.

Why think of Air Combat in this manner?

When I play chess my strategy is to give up pieces yet be on the offensive. Trade one for one and always look for possition, appear to be equal yet gain an advantage, disrupt the other players plan and make him play my game.

When a pilot goes for a head-on shot he is manuevering in an aggressive manner, however if the other pilot also goes for a shot the net exchange is neutral. At this time in our hypothetical exercise all advantage is equal, including fire power, armor, and pilot ability.

When one of the pilots does not going for the head-on shot he is defensive. Maneuvering away from the attack gives up angles. The Head-on shot is the offensive maneuver and the maneuver of advantage if the other pilot does not go for the head-on shot. There is no way out of this condition. The best a pilot can do when the choice is made to avoid a head-on shot is to minimize the loss of advantage. It is that simple.

It get's complicated when considering how the loss of advantage is minimized.

How many players go directly at the opponent in a head on merge situation, where the player puts the enemy into his sight and flies right at the target?

If both players do this then niether player will give up any advantage and a head-on collision will result.

If one player makes a defensive move then the other player will see his target move out of his sight picture. During that moment the player making a defensive move is giving up angles and energy. The player making the defensive move uses up energy to turn and exposes more of his rear hemesphere or in other words the defensive move gives up angular or geometric possition in addition to giving up on relative energy.

How big is the loss, at this point in time, that is realized by the defensive player who is avoiding the head-on?

How big is the advantage gained by the offensive player who went for the head-on?

Not much unless you take into account the pilots thinking.

If the defensive pilot thinks: "OH NO! This is Stupid. That guy doesn't care about his virtual life at all. He is playing like a gamer. Waaaaaaa Waaaaaa Waaaaaa" then the defensive pilot is at a much greater dissadvantage at this point in time then a pilot that thinks: "I have a plan! Let me try a lead turn here as described in Shaw's book on page 74" then the defensive pilot is thinking one step ahead and is in good shape to turn things back in his favor.

Since this is really getting long, I am going to limit things a bit and add one more very instructive bit of information concerning what happens next: The defensive pilot could be thinking "OH BOY! A sucker, he is really bitting at the bit. I'll bet this guy is going to turn really hard after the pass and then he will be set up perfectly for a drag. Now where is my wingman?"

XyZspineZyX
02-03-2004, 10:34 AM
@Jombala,

Try this:

Defensive Flying (http://www.naysayers.com/9jg52/defensive.htm)

The track is from an old version, so won't work. But the narrative is still apt.

Jombala
02-07-2004, 02:24 AM
Sorry for the delay and a warm thanks, it was exactly what I was searching for :-)