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Yossarian_UK
05-04-2004, 04:08 PM
Oleg, although I love to fly this aircraft, I invariably suffer engine fires. I know one needs to increase engine speed gradually in this jet fighter, and I try to do that, but to no avail.

Can't we have an option to switch off this particular "realism" so that I can get on and enjoy the game ?

BTW: Fantastic game, best ever realism.

Yossarian_UK
05-04-2004, 04:08 PM
Oleg, although I love to fly this aircraft, I invariably suffer engine fires. I know one needs to increase engine speed gradually in this jet fighter, and I try to do that, but to no avail.

Can't we have an option to switch off this particular "realism" so that I can get on and enjoy the game ?

BTW: Fantastic game, best ever realism.

gates123
05-04-2004, 04:28 PM
you gotta go REAL slow.......

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Did anyone see that or was it just me?

Vortex_uk
05-04-2004, 04:33 PM
Or set your power to 100% before you start your engines,it will not set alight if you do this.But be ready to have the brakes on and rudder.

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|CoB|_Spectre
05-04-2004, 04:57 PM
For ground starts (Separate Engine Start option engaged), I make sure the throttle for the engine I'm starting is set to Idle. Once I get a positive indication of light-off (tach coming up to idle RPM), I initiate start on the second engine, then select my mapped key for controlling both engines. After both engines have reached stable Idle RPM, I SLOWLY advance power with brakes ON until approx. 50%, then release brakes and steadily increase power to MAX to begin the takeoff roll. Once airborne and minimum single engine safe speed of 270km/hr is reached, I ****** power to below 90% as desired to cool-off the Overheat condition. Attention to procedure and practice makes engine fires a rarity. Adolph Galland said they usually set the power to desired cruise and "left it there". If you try to jockey the throttles of these early jet engines like you do with recips, you're going to get undesirable results. I'm not sure the engine(s) catching fire in the 262 is all that accurate, but I haven't done an exhaustive study by any means. "Flaming-out" is not the same as "flaming-up", and while injudicious movement of the throttles could result in a flameout, the tendency to catch fire is something of a question. Apparently the early 262 engines lacked sufficient overboard fuel drains and fuel would collect inside the cowlings, which led to engine fires during the approach-to-landing evolution. From what I've read, that problem was addressed with proper drains as the 262 design progressed. I find if you set power somewhere between 75% and 90%, you can just leave it alone and concentrate on flying and gunnery. Dogfighting was never the 262's strong suite, but what it does, it does well.

VW-IceFire
05-04-2004, 05:50 PM
I haven't lit the Me 262 on fire for quite a long time. It takes some mental work to make sure you don't throw the throttle around but I'm waiting for the day when if you do this to inline and radial engines you'll get a similarly nasty response (throwing smoke and not giving power for instance).

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BennyMoore
05-04-2004, 10:21 PM
The key isn't speed, it's smoothness. You can full throttle it in a second or so as long as you don't jerk it.

However, I do not think that this guy is manhandling it. It's very likely that he is doing it correctly, but has a less-than-perfect joystick. My friend could never once start up his engine without lighting it up, then he got a new joystick. Hey presto, no more problem... Apparently your joystick throttle has to be perfect.

My solution to you is to use the keys for throttling up and down in this plane. That way you cannot light up your engines.

Personally, I think that there should not just be an option to disable it, but that it should be universally disabled. In all of my reading on the early jet engines, nothing has been mentioned about setting engines on fire by throttling up too fast. A flame out is not your engine catching fire. Flame outs are in IL-2, but they happen when you throttle down too quickly.

WUAF_Badsight
05-05-2004, 02:41 AM
set your throttle to 100% first

hit I

repeat for the second motor

select both

your away

VVS-Manuc
05-05-2004, 02:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
set your throttle to 100% first

hit I

repeat for the second motor

select both

your away<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

does anyone know whether this "100% - bug" will be fixed in the patch?

BennyMoore
05-08-2004, 09:11 PM
I've lit up my engines more than once with that solution, Badsight. I didn't touch the throttle.

BlitzPig_DDT
05-08-2004, 09:32 PM
There is a more serious problem and it apples to all engines, not just turbines - fires caused by damage do not go out, no matter what you do.

I had made a thread about this before but it just fell by the wayside in short order.

I don't have a problem with the way damage causes fires, even though some have suggested it's a bit to quick to happen in FB. The problem is, once on fire in a multi engine plane, even if you cut that engine, kill it's throttle independently (so fuel is stopped along with ignition) and then fly fast enough to put the fire out, once you slow back down, it re-ignites.

It could have been out for ages and been feeling the cold air of high-alt, and it'll still re-light when you try to land.

This is a serious problem that really needs to be addressed.

Even in an ICE engine there isn't that much left to burn once fuel is cut. And once the fire does go out, any flamables left - hoses and oil basically - would be too difficult to light back up from the little bit of warmth left.

A turbine is even more of an issue here. It's basically a tube with a pinwheel inside. It's not only being cooled by convection on the nacelle, block, and/or coolant, it's also getting lots of cool air moving right through the inside of the engine touching all parts. There is far less oil and rubber, and with no fuel, there is absolutely no reason for it to re-light.

Please(!) change this.


Re: the original post, they aren't that likely to go up with smooth throttle response. I fly all the jets quite a bit, there really isn't anything to it. Start the engines and wait a few second to let them spool up to idle. Throttle should be a 0 here.

Once each has come up to idle speed and are both reading the same speed, slowly and smoothly move the throttle up a few percent, maybe even 10, and wait. Let the engines spool up to this setting, then smoothly increase again, and repeat this until you hit anywhere from 30-50%. Once you reach somewhere in there, roll a bit and start using brakes to taxi, then once lined up, hold the brake, repeat the previous increase method until you hit about 80%, then release the brakes and increase the throttle with the rev increase until you hit 100%, then once you get the gear up, smoothly bring it back down to about 80(ish).

It can be done faster, but this way basically ensures safety by being a little over cautious.

You can start the engines at 100% as suggested, but that is "gaming the game" and cheap.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that you are in a DF server and trying to get airborne too quickly.

Remember, even if you go slow you can still get well ahead of the spooling.

Oh, and far more important than any of that, check your throttle. It's pot might be spiking. If it is, that is almost a gaurentee of a fire.

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Yossarian_UK
05-09-2004, 02:25 AM
Guys, I really appreciate all the trouble and time you have taken to give me detailed instructions as to how to avoid these Me262 engine fires by upping the throttle more gradually and smoothly. However,I have tried this on numerous occasions without improvement.

My basic plea here to Oleg is to have an *option* in the game to disable this element of "realism". We have this for issues of turbulance, vulnerability, black outs, etc, etc. Surely its not much to ask to be able to disable this particular feature that brings the game to a sudden, frustrating stop ?

The Me262 is such a great aircraft, good-looking, flies brilliantly, a generation ahead of its time. I just want to get my hands on it !

Thanks again for all your proferred help, though. Much apprecated.

All the best.

JG5_UnKle
05-09-2004, 04:13 AM
Bear in mind you can change between 80% power and 100% power as fast as you like http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif no fires will start.

@ BlitzPig_DDT - You aren't the only one mate http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif the number of times I have brought a 109 in on a dead stick from 8000M, only to have it burst into flames on finals after having no fire and no fuel for several minutes.......

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SGStewart
05-09-2004, 05:24 AM
Hey guys I use to have the me262guide.com so I know alot about the me262. I have alot of original Flight manuals and this is right from the flight manual for the 262. I added a few things for IL2 like % of power and stuff like that. It works http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Caution brakes must be used in taxiing because the rudder is ineffective and steering by the engine thrust is difficult. Brakes are the only means of control, and taxiing should be done with jet units running at 4000 to 6000 rpm. The tail of the ship must not be turned toward inflammable objects.

WARNING: By opening or closing throttles too fast under 6000 rpm or 45% there is a danger of causing cavitations in one of the compressor stages, that is, by moving the throttle too quickly the compressor is overloaded and the smooth air flow breaks up just as it does on a stalled wing. Insufficient air flows through but the same amount of fuel is injected, resulting in insufficient power or engine fire. Over 6000 rpm/ 45% you can move the throttles as fast as you want. I would suggest using 50% minimum to be on the safe side.

Ok to start taxiing bring the throttle up slowly to 6000 rpm or around 45% To turn you must use the rudder the way you want to turn and then apply the brakes.

Once you get moving bring the throttle back to 5000 rpm or around 28% power for straight rolling. Give yourself plenty of room to slow down before getting to a turn but do not slow down all the way because you will need some speed to make the turn.

Check your Gas Temperature make sure it does not go over 650 degrees C for long period of time no more then a few sec to be exact.

Do not hold short if you do not need to try to stay in the turn keep the speed up a little while in the turn to get on the runway.

BennyMoore
05-09-2004, 12:59 PM
Say, thanks awfully! I wasn't aware that the engine fire was a real thing. I must apologize to Oleg for criticizing it; I've complained loud and long about this to my brother, thinking that the only result of throttle abuse should be flameout and not fire.

You know, I bet in real life the throttles were somewhat difficult to push up really fast. I know that in a Cessna, it takes a little effort to push up the throttle that quickly. The effort might prevent the engine fires from happening as often as they do to us with our little joystick throttle sliders.

BlitzPig_DDT
05-09-2004, 04:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yossarian_UK:
Guys, I really appreciate all the trouble and time you have taken to give me detailed instructions as to how to avoid these Me262 engine fires by upping the throttle more gradually and smoothly. However,I have tried this on numerous occasions without improvement.

My basic plea here to Oleg is to have an *option* in the game to disable this element of "realism". We have this for issues of turbulance, vulnerability, black outs, etc, etc. Surely its not much to ask to be able to disable this particular feature that brings the game to a sudden, frustrating stop ?

The Me262 is such a great aircraft, good-looking, flies brilliantly, a generation ahead of its time. I just want to get my hands on it !

Thanks again for all your proferred help, though. Much apprecated.

All the best.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would not bet on any changes being made.

If you have tried time and again to follow advice like listed here, and still have the problem, then it sounds like you have a problem with your throttle. It must be spiking.

At a minimum look in the control panel under gaming controlers and check the calibration. Watch the slider as you move the throttle. If it jumps, it's spiking, and that is the cause of your fires. Basically the throttle is moving on it's own, without your direction.

The thing to do would be to disassemble and clean the pot inside it. Or, if that isn't possible (as is the case with some rigs), then you will have to get either a replacement pot, or, just replace the whole rig.

Once you work this out, you'll be able to play in any setting, even if Oleg added this option, and in the long run, you'll be much better off.

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

Prof.Wizard
05-09-2004, 04:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
You know, I bet in real life the throttles were somewhat difficult to push up really fast. I know that in a Cessna, it takes a little effort to push up the throttle that quickly. The effort might prevent the engine fires from happening as often as they do to us with our little joystick throttle sliders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's a very good point. I hope they consider it and simulate some "latency" even if you max the throttle in your joystick's paddle right away.

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LEXX_Luthor
05-09-2004, 04:56 PM
BennyMoore:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You know, I bet in real life the throttles were somewhat difficult to push up really fast. I know that in a Cessna, it takes a little effort to push up the throttle that quickly. The effort might prevent the engine fires from happening as often as they do to us with our little joystick throttle sliders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I was just thinking if they could add a key command for "gentle" throttle where if you select this your throttle changes slowly to your new setting. Say you are at 90% throttle and you want to back down to 50% but instead of fiddling with the keyboard it does it slowly in say 5 seconds (this auto feature can be turned off mind you). Still, fiddling with throttle was probably a chore to handle so its not so important idea really.

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p1ngu666
05-11-2004, 08:13 AM
think ive had engines go up in flames at fast rpm/hiigh throttle, say 100% to 80% i think http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
got a feeling engine fires reignight so u get the kill in single player :\

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|CoB|_Spectre
05-11-2004, 07:10 PM
I can't speak for the Me-262 throttles, but I have direct personal experience with throttle rigging for the T-2B/C Buckeye trainers, A-4 Skyhawk (most models), T-34B Mentor and F-14A/B/D models as well as H-53 helicopter variants. If rigged properly, the throttle is smooth and balanced in both advance and ****** movements.

Eric Brown mentions this regarding taxi procedure of the 262 in his book, Wings of the Luftwaffe: "This called for very restrained movement of the throttles to ensure that the limiting jetpipe temperature of 650 degrees C (1,202 degrees F) was not exceeded, but once 6,000 RPM were reached the governor cut in and throttle movement could be accelerated".

Note that it does not suggest anywhere that the Me-262 (at least the captured late war versions) had a tendency to burst into flames easily.

Furthermore, he writes: "The Jumo 004 turbojets tended towards the tempermental above 13,125 ft (4,000 m) at which altitude the fuel pumps had to be switched on to sustain combustion, and above 29,530 ft (9,000 m) it was considered inadvisable to reduce revs below 6,000 per minute as to do so was to ensure a flame-out and restarting could not be attempted above 13,125 ft (4,000 m)".

Again, "flame-out" is not to be confused with "flame-up". One issue not made clear in his writing is whether there was a provision to secure fuel to an engine if it were damaged or on fire. However, he does describe the cockpit layout as having "fuel *****" on the left console and their role in engine start procedure. On more modern aircraft it would be unthinkable to not provide for a fuel shutoff for such events and most prop aircraft of the day had fuel shutoff as well. The presence of engine extinguishers is not discussed nor depicted in the cutaway drawing, but the ability to shutoff fuel to the engine should, in most cases, stop and engine fire. This is not the case in IL-2/FB/AEP. Of course, neither was the ability to airstart a flamed out engine until around the 1.21 patch, but it was finally addressed.

II_JG1Hartmann
05-12-2004, 08:02 AM
THis is a stupid feature that needs to be removed to be honest. The ME-262 DIDN'T TAXI because of the needed strees ont eh engines to trun left and right to get to the active.

The AC was towed to the active so the pilots didn't have to alternate left and right engines and risk flaming them. Unless I missed something we dont have tow vehicles.

So you must start both engines and taxi using alternating throttles and all this does is heat the engine faster and you runt he risk of flaming on takeoff.

Manytimes I have managed to get the damn thing to the end of the runway and then I turn everything off and set there to get a cold start.

20 minutes later I'm usually airborne.

Yossarian_UK
05-12-2004, 08:48 AM
As the original author of this thread, I thought you guys might be interested in a related book that I have just bought "The Messerschmitt Me 262 Combat Diary" by John Foreman & S.E. Harvey (ISBN 1-871187-30-3). 405 pages long, it provides a fascinating account of this great aircraft in its short combat life-span, and reads like a novel. Well worth buying in my view.

Best regards

...still hoping that Oleg will render Me262 engine fires optional...