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Boandlgramer
06-17-2004, 02:31 PM
According to an well know member of this excellent and very friendly Forum, the finns had spits.
anyone is needed, who know the truth ?

Boandlgramer
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:10LP6FCHtuYJ:www.vhts.de/bilder/wappenbayern.jpg
The first Time i saw Chuck Yeager, i shot him down. Petrosillius Zwacklmann ( WW2 Hero ).
***********************
Who want to be everybodys" Darling ", has to be everybodys Depp .

Boandlgramer
06-17-2004, 02:31 PM
According to an well know member of this excellent and very friendly Forum, the finns had spits.
anyone is needed, who know the truth ?

Boandlgramer
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:10LP6FCHtuYJ:www.vhts.de/bilder/wappenbayern.jpg
The first Time i saw Chuck Yeager, i shot him down. Petrosillius Zwacklmann ( WW2 Hero ).
***********************
Who want to be everybodys" Darling ", has to be everybodys Depp .

F19_Olli72
06-17-2004, 02:35 PM
Think he was pulling your leg...or something else http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif Hurricanes yes, Spitfire no.

http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/v40/Olli72/Forgotten%20Battles/cloudtut/sig2.jpg (http://www.screenshotart.com)

Boandlgramer
06-17-2004, 02:42 PM
yes, maybe.
just to check his reliability and his Knowledge for the rest of his posts http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif about tanks and groundattackplanes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

Boandlgramer
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:10LP6FCHtuYJ:www.vhts.de/bilder/wappenbayern.jpg
The first Time i saw Chuck Yeager, i shot him down. Petrosillius Zwacklmann ( WW2 Hero ).
***********************
Who want to be everybodys" Darling ", has to be everybodys Depp .

Whatsmypassword
06-17-2004, 03:05 PM
Hi my old mate,

They did but apparently prefer not to recall about it as apparently they lost most of them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Kinda selective memory in a Finnish variant I suppose. I think that if the memoirs of such a well know WWII ace as Golubev who got a British decoration even though all the war he fought in the Baltic are a credible source. After all he quotes a Finnish air commander and if the Finnish guy was wrong he would correct him. Golubev was experienced enough to identify Spit even though that he did not write that he shot down a Spitfire. His book "IN THE NAME OF LENINGRAD" got published in 1999 when he had no reason to hide something. That Finnish "major" also had no apparent reason to lie in 1944 when told Golubev that a sad story about a (supposedly elite) Finish aviation unit that had 9 Spits and lost 6 of them on November 2 and 5 1941 in the combat with Golubev and his comrades over Hanko Island in Baltic Sea. It should be a harsh truth and some "tough" Finnish hardliners apparently preferred to forget about it.

Boandlgramer
06-17-2004, 03:25 PM
oh my dear , you called me "my old mate". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
with these nice words, i am going to bed, now .
good night, fellows. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

Boandlgramer
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:10LP6FCHtuYJ:www.vhts.de/bilder/wappenbayern.jpg
The first Time i saw Chuck Yeager, i shot him down. Petrosillius Zwacklmann ( WW2 Hero ).
***********************
Who want to be everybodys" Darling ", has to be everybodys Depp .

Whatsmypassword
06-17-2004, 03:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Boandlgramer:
oh my dear , you called me "my old mate". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
with these nice words, i am going to bed, now .
good night, fellows. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, your last smile is in quite a strange position http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kerranger
06-17-2004, 04:37 PM
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=46825&messageid=962791009

"In the book "Against Finland", mentioned before by Mirek Wawrzynski, there are mentions about Finnish "Spitfires", claimed by Soviet pilots:
26.02.1940 - 4 Spitfires;
29.02.1940 - 2 Spitfires;
02.03.1940 - 4 Spitfires.
All were claimed in Turku area.

Afanasiy Kotkin, veteran of 13IAP (who also claimed Spitfire shot down), said me, that it was "fighter - monoplane with retractable undercarriage and water-cooled engine".
Most probably that Soviet pilots clashed over Turku with Finnish MS-406's.
Victories over "Spitfires" continued during "Continuation war" : pilots of 13IAP claimed Spitfire 02.11.1941 and another two 05.11.1941 over Hanko. Some later MS-406's were claimed as... Hurricanes.
Probably, Morane was unknown type for Soviet pilots"

Whatsmypassword
06-17-2004, 04:51 PM
this is a different case. The Soviet ace did not claim that he shot down a Spit. He quotes a Finnish air commander who told him (they talked in Russian so the tranlsation mistake is excluded) in late 1944 in Malme that Finnish airforce lost 6 Spitfires in November 1941. If that Finnish major was right Golubev shot in fact two more Finnish planes (allegedly Spitfires) than his official record reflects.

FritzFrotz
06-17-2004, 05:46 PM
SO where did the spits come from? What model were they? Who flew them? Is there even one single photo anywhere that shows these Finnish spitfires? Where did the rest of them go (if any survived)? What were the soviet ace and teh Finnish "major" drinking before during and after the conversation? Why was the Finnish major giggling like a little girl and mumbling something like "schpidfirz my ***" when walking back to the barracks after a long night of vodka and war stories?

Whatsmypassword
06-17-2004, 06:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FritzFrotz:
SO where did the spits come from? What model were they? Who flew them? Is there even one single photo anywhere that shows these Finnish spitfires? Where did the rest of them go (if any survived)? What were the soviet ace and teh Finnish "major" drinking before during and after the conversation? Why was the Finnish major giggling like a little girl and mumbling something like "schpidfirz my ***" when walking back to the barracks after a long night of vodka and war stories?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These guys came through the war from its beginning till the end. They were enemies who by chance met after the war between their countries ended. So nobody was gigling and your irony is misplaced. I dont care if Finnish army had Spitfires or not because for me it is absolutely not intresting. I just wonder that you claiming yourself enthusiasts of the history your small country cannot go to the archive and check it.

FritzFrotz
06-17-2004, 06:34 PM
What archive should we go to? Supermarine? FAF? Any records I‚¬īve ever seen have nothing on Spitfires sent to Finland. Finns asked for Spitfires, but the Brits didn‚¬īt have enough to sell and the Finns got Hurricanes in stead.

A book where someone claims that about 60 years ago someone else had told him that there were Spits in Finland doesn‚¬īt make it so if all other sources state otherwise. So where exactly do I go to to find this data about Finnish Spits?

The fact that war had just ended doesn‚¬īt make those people friends. Many of their generation hated the Russians 60 years after the war and I doubt the Finnis major was very friendly and enthusiastic about having conquerors in his homeland. I really don‚¬īt know under what circumstances that conversation took place but from what I know I have no reason to take it very seriously.

Whatsmypassword
06-17-2004, 07:22 PM
This someone was Vasiliy Golubev -- one of the fearsome for Nazists and their sattelites ace in the Baltic decorated by top Soviet and British honors. I think he is a credible source.

If you are wanna go deeper into it, read his memoirs (in Russian) at
http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/golubev_vf/41.html before going in any archive you like.

Vasiliy F. Golubev , second right
(39 personal victories and 12 group victories)Twice Hero of Soviet Union, Commander of the 4 Guards Fighters Regiment.

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/golubev_vf/57.jpg

Golubev's La-7
http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilots/foto/golubev2.jpg

Zyzbot
06-17-2004, 07:42 PM
This doesn't settle a thing but
I fin this comment about alleged Finnish Spitfires:


http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=46825&messageid=1087455965

FiPete
06-17-2004, 08:44 PM
These guys came through the war from its beginning till the end. They were enemies who by chance met after the war between their countries ended. So nobody was gigling and your irony is misplaced. I dont care if Finnish army had Spitfires or not because for me it is absolutely not intresting. I just wonder that you claiming yourself enthusiasts of the history your small country cannot go to the archive and check it.[/QUOTE]

The Finnish airforce did not have Spitfires and there is not an archive, where you can find these non-existing Spitfires. The FAF had thirteen Hurricanes. Someone has maybe mixed these two planes.
Who was this mysterious Finnish major? There were not many pilot majors after the war.

Porsimo
06-17-2004, 11:27 PM
Well, it's not the only time when Soviets claimed non-existed kills - or planes! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Once 5 Finnish Bf-109s got into a dogfight with Soviets, "alone" meaning with no other participants (i.e. Germans). Afterwards Soviets claimed that they shot down 6 Finnish Focke-Wulfs! (And yes, Finns didn't have Focke-Wulfs either.) So, 5 Me's (which all returned to their base) turned into 6 downed Fw's in Soviet reports.

Go figure...

- Regards
Porsimo
---------------------------
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/gudmund/fb/sig2.jpg (http://personal.inet.fi/koti/gudmund/fb/)

Whatsmypassword
06-17-2004, 11:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Porsimo:
Well, it's not the only time when Soviets claimed non-existed kills - or planes! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Once 5 Finnish Bf-109s got into a dogfight with Soviets, "alone" meaning with no other participants (i.e. Germans). Afterwards Soviets claimed that they shot down 6 Finnish Focke-Wulfs! (And yes, Finns didn't have Focke-Wulfs either.) So, 5 Me's (which all returned to their base) turned into 6 downed Fw's in Soviet reports.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


On their side the Finnish claimed Soviet Mustangs P-51 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif and Lightings P-38 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Whatsmypassword
06-18-2004, 12:01 AM
How the Finnish ace claimed not existed planes as his kills http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Taken from the Finnish forum where somebody quoted me.


Finnish guy:
--------------------------------------------------------
Juutilainen, the leading Finnish ace with 94 victories, claimed two supposed Mustangs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif as follows:

44.06.26 - over Juustila-Tali while flying MT-422
44.06.28 - over Tammisuo while flying MT-459

Hemmo Leino himself, in interview done by me, says that his Mustang kill is actually a Spitfire. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It was booked as Mustang by the squadron intel guy, whole mr. Leino said and says that it was Spitfire V. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

--------------------------------------------------------

Russian answer:
Hello gentlemen!

At last I‚'ve decided to describe at least one situation with those Spitfires in details. The clue is simple.

Regarding first Spitfires met by LeLv 24 on September 20, 1942 in Lavansaari Ė Peninsaari area:

According to Soviet sources the picture looks absolutely different than that one described by Illu.

6 Yak-1s, 2 LaGG-3s and 6 I-16s of 21 IAP KBF at 13:13-14:42 (here and later Ė Soviet time for soviet sources) escorted 6 Il-2s of 57 ShAP KBF to Vigrund tower area and on the way back, at 14:05 at 3000m near Lavansaari they fought an air combat with 8 enemy planes recognized as ‚ėFiats‚'. According to pilots‚' reports 3 ‚ėFiat‚' planes were shot down and 1 was damaged. There were NO OWN LOSSES. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

All four claims were registered in official VVS KBF victory list:
1. Sgt. Tkachyov
2. Lt. Rubtsov
3. Kpt. Romanov
4. Kpt. Romanov - Ml.Lt. Zhuravlyov


According to Finnish sources 6 BW (Karhunen-Herrala, Kauppinen-Juutilainen, Salovaara-Lampelto) intercepted a Soviet formation on the way back to Kronstadt. There were at least 10 Soviet fighters seen: Spitfires and MiG-1s. In the following air combat Finns had NO OWN LOSSES.

Claimed victories:
13:00-14:40 Peninsaari Ltm. Jutilainen BW-364 1 Spifire
13:00-14:40 Peninsaari Ltm. Jutilainen BW-364 1 MiG-1
13:00-14:40 Peninsaari Kapt. Karhunen BW-366 1 Spifire


Conclusions:
‚ėFiats‚' = BW (as they were usually misidentified by KBF pilots)
‚ėSpitfires‚' = Yak-1s
‚ėMiG-1s‚' = LaGG-3

‚... And I would wish that all air combats would finish with such peaceful results‚...

By the way the smoking ship mentioned by Illu in his memoirs was Soviet boat No.54, which had sat on shoal. After unsuccessful attempts to move it from sandbank the soviet boats tried to destroy it by shelling, but failed. At last the boat was set on fire by Soviet planes mentioned above.

Regarding Lightnings on July 10, 1943. I investigated this event specially during my last vacations in Gatchina archive (TsVMA) and I can say that VVS KBF registered even NO AIR COMBATS or ENCOUNTERS with enemy planes in that area. The dot in this case will be placed when I‚'ll find the reports of ground observation posts of Seiskari.

LEXX_Luthor
06-18-2004, 12:06 AM
Both Soviet and British gave points for shooting down He~113. USA gave points for shooting down Macchis, or "Tonis," in teh Pacific (yet another in a growing list of reasons for Compatibility between StandAlone FB and StandAlone FP for the ultimate in hysterically correct "feel").

Germans gave points for shooting down LaGG~5 (we still see amatuer Ace internet dogfighter using "LaGG~5" even today).

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Whatsmypassword
06-18-2004, 12:17 AM
Hartmann counted among kills several Yak-11.

Porsimo
06-18-2004, 02:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Whatsmypassword:
On their side the Finnish claimed Soviet Mustangs P-51 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif and Lightings P-38 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, but in later studies those Mustangs have been re-identified as Yaks - which has clearly not happened with "Finnish Spitfires". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif That Lightning (only 1) is still a bit mystery. There are speculations that it would've been a (captured) FW-189, because there weren't too many plane types on Eastern Front with similar structure like P-38 or FW-189...

Those Yaks stayed as Mustangs in Finnish history books all the way to the late 90's...

- Regards
Porsimo
---------------------------
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/gudmund/fb/sig2.jpg (http://personal.inet.fi/koti/gudmund/fb/)

p1ngu666
06-18-2004, 02:15 AM
they probably nabbed a few off the soviets they shot down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

JAS_Gripen
06-18-2004, 03:11 AM
We had Spits?

Excellent - I demand online servers take this into account ASAP!!!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Grendel-B
06-18-2004, 03:27 AM
Well, answer is simple, no Spitfires existed in Finnish Air Force. Misidentification and lack of good intel is always recipe for such occasions. During Winter War the Finnish Fiats and Morane Saulnier 406s were regularly recognized as Spitfires by the Soviet pilots, and there are lots of examples of this kind.

The P-38 kill by Juutilainen was known to be a Focke Wulf 189 already after the sortie, but it has been entered as P-38 in the history books.

Regarding Golubev.

The aviation historician Carl-Fredrik Geust answered to this example of Finnish Spitfires:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
This is very strange that this topic pops up once again. The text is a summary of part II of Golubev‚¬īs memoirs published in the 1980s, written alreaady in 1950s (based on his own diary, but without access to documents). The memoirs are well written and tells a good story. BTW - well worth to translate - BUT WOULD REQUIRE EXTENSIVE COMMENTS!!

Andrei Dikov and I have clarified this topic in the Russian aviation journal Aviamaster 1/2003 in our joint article about the air battle of 13 IAP (Golubev‚¬īs regiment) against the Curtisses of Os H (led by Paavo Berg) in early November 1941. BTW, I met and interviewed Golubev personally twice in 1996-1997.

In brief:
- the Soviet Hanko naval base was in summer-autumn 1941 an isolated, surrounded garrison without any modern aircraft identification manuals. On the other hand Soviet intelligence was most likely informed about Finlands‚¬īs attempts to aquire Spits during the winter war (see eg. the memoirs of Finlands‚¬īs ambassador to London G.A.Gripenberg, also published in English).

- when the in the late winter war the so far unknown Moranes appeared (vaguely similar to Spit), the logical conclusion was that "now the Spits have arrived in Finland...".

- same story in Hanko - when Curtisses arrived from Karelian isthmus (where they had fought only against army VVS - not against naval aircraft) the same conclusion was made. Of course now any 10-year old kid sees the difference between a Spit and the RADIAL-engine Curtiss - but in Hanko there were no plasic models, pictures of enemy aircraft (except very old and inaaccurate brochures), and no pilot had ever seen a Spit! The (mistaken) identification of the aircraft was probably made on ground by the intelligence officers (possibly aware of the above mentioned negotiations by Gripenberg) - based on the description of the pilots... (When I explained to Golubev that Finnish AF NEVER had any Spits, he seemed to accept the above explanation personally, but did to my information never publish any correction of his memoirs!)

- Golubev‚¬īs description of the air combat is very accurate (except some mistaken dates), and tells exactly how Berg and Lakio were shot down (1 and 5 Nov 1941).

- the Finnish pilot whom Golubev met at Malmi in late September 1944 was most probably Major Erho, then commandant of Malmi airport. This elderly AF officer did not fly at Hanko, but probably wanted both to hide the exact details of his career from the recent enemy, and also to be polite and tell a good story when toasting the new hosts at "his" airport!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll need to get somebody to translate parts of that book into some more readable language. Even if Golubev misidentified his targets and overclaimed 300%, there are grains of truth on what he tells about his own experiences, while the Finnish major has fed him bull**** and that got written down as a fact http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Even with the errors on dates, the shootdown of Paavo Berg and Alpo Lakio are major achievements , though of course grave losses to the Finns. Both men were skilled and loved by their fellows.

Quoting what I wrote on teh other thread:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Golubev would have been quite hard pressed to shoot down 3 Finnish Spitfires at November 2, 1941, as Finnish Air Force did not have a single Spitfire during the wars.

There are some truths on what he'd written, but his details are quite far from being spot on.
LeLv 32 lost the following planes over Hanko:
1.11.41 Curtiss Hawk CU-570 piloted by Paavo Berg
5.11.41 Curtiss Hawk CU-567 piloted by Alpo Lakio
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The six Spitfires in one day are actually two Curtisses, five days apart.

The Finnish Air Force had been given idiotic job to clear Hanko of Soviet fighters, a job that the artillery could have done much easier. Russians were well dug in and had skilled pilots , which in the end resulted in loss of two very great men.

Here is what I've written about the Hanko case in my interviews:

Jarl Arnkil, Curtiss pilot LLv 32:

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-JarlArnkilEnglish.html

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Hanko detachment - ****ty job but someone had to do it

Then the air force commander gave a strong order. Hanko detachment with eight Curtisses was established. The order was to destroy the targets requested by ground forces, destroy the 20 fighters Russians had in Hanko area with strafing and bomb attacks. You know it was dangerous and ineffective to shoot planes at airfields that had terrible anti-air defenses. Reconnaissance squadron 6 had experience of strong ack inside Hanko encirclement capable of shooting up to 5000 meters.

Captain Berg, the flight leader, planned this thing so that we should lure the enemy planes up and out of their ack cover. He led a plane pair to circle the Hanko encirclement. We had one ground radio station there too, and Ky√¬∂sti "K√¬∂ssi" Karhila was there. He saw one I-153 taking off and informed Pate (Paavo Berg). 1st Lieutenant Aimo Euramo took off with four planes 10 minutes after Pate. They planned to use radios to talk about where the enemy was and what should be done. However, Euramo was unable to contact Berg with radio. Berg saw one enemy plane flying low. At the same time Russians started to send more planes up after Berg. As Berg shot the lone plane down, also his plane took a hit from ack and crashed to sea. Karhila witnessed two planes crashing from his position at the ground station.

There was another occasion when one of our planes fell. Then it ended. On December 3rd the encirclement was found to be empty. The guys came to Suulaj√¬§rvi and said. "****ty job but someone had to do it." Can't argue with that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As you see, there are confusion even here. Earlier it was believed that Berg was shot down by AA, but it seems a Soviet fighter got him instead.

Ky√¬∂sti Karhila about Hanko operation:

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-KyostiKarhilaInterview.html

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
At this time Hanko was being "liberated" and I was posted as an artillery liaison officer, and did not get to fly until the final phases of the operation. There we lost "Pate" Berg, my Flight Leader. He was a very pleasant and paternal man. He was the only one who instructed us in the early days of the war (1941), what to do and when to do it in battle. Another loss was Lt. Alpo Lakio (with CU-567). The AAA got both of them, probably, or then the I-16s. We do not know for sure. You see, I happened to witness how a Curtiss crashed in the sea in vertical dive in the East. I did not see that the pilot would have bailed out. When we took prisoners of war, they told us that a Finnish pilot, a Captain, had been captured. We thought it must have been Berg, he would be repatriated after the war. He was a man of the type to survive. In the Winter War he had flown Gladiators and scored victories. He, too, was hit. The fuel tank of the Gladiator was placed right in front of the pilot, it was hit and the fuel caught fire. The flames scorched his face before he could bail out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

VirtuaaliLentoLaivue Icebreakers
http://icebreakers.compart.fi/

Finnish Virtual Pilots Association aviation history articles:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/

Grendel-B
06-18-2004, 03:28 AM
Oh, in addition...

If Golubev's tale of Finnish Spitfires is undeniable proof of their existence, then same thing must work other way as well: therefore Soviet P-38s, P-51s etc are definitely proven to exist. &lt;g&gt;

VirtuaaliLentoLaivue Icebreakers
http://icebreakers.compart.fi/

Finnish Virtual Pilots Association aviation history articles:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/

FritzFrotz
06-18-2004, 04:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Whatsmypassword:
This someone was Vasiliy Golubev -- one of the fearsome for Nazists and their sattelites ace in the Baltic decorated by top Soviet and British honors. I think he is a credible source.

If you are wanna go deeper into it, read his memoirs (in Russian) at
http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/golubev_vf/41.html before going in any archive you like.

Vasiliy F. Golubev , second right
(39 personal victories and 12 group victories)Twice Hero of Soviet Union, Commander of the 4 Guards Fighters Regiment.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don‚¬īt think Golubev himself wouldn‚¬īt be a credible source, but his memoirs obviously aren‚¬īt I think this issue is pretty much settled with Grendel‚¬īs posts? There were no Spitfires in Finland. No matter what archive I should go to I wouldn‚¬īt find any info on them. It‚¬īd be nice if there had been Spits in Finland, I‚¬īve been thinking of building a Spit model and a Finnish one would be a good subject.

I don‚¬īt speak or read Russian so I can‚¬īt read that link either. You can blame (like I do) the stupid Finnish schooling system that forces everyone to study Swedish in stead of languages they would like to learn or would have use for. Ok, that may be already slightly off-topic.

Whatsmypassword
06-18-2004, 11:18 AM
Actually, I gained even more respect of Golubev because he never claimed that he shot down 6 Spits. for him it was quite a surpzise to know those fact from a finnish officer in 1944. His description of the battles indeed is very accurate. I think somebody will translate his book in Finnish or English because it is of historical value. The last edition was published in 2000 when Golubev was alive. He wrote some things that would never be published during the Soviet period.

FritzFrotz
06-18-2004, 02:54 PM
It‚¬īd be nice to have the book translated, I like to read that kind of stuff. Perhaps there should be some kind of side note explaining the true situation with the Finnish Spitfires, though.

boxmike
06-18-2004, 05:04 PM
At some point before War, Finland was interested about Seversky EP-1(Later Republic, predecessor of P-47), ME109 and Spitfire.
Manufacturing capacity of EP1 was full(by Swedes), ME109 was available without licence build(expensive), and Spitfire was at summer 1939 still in the list of secret planes, RAF needed them first.
Severskys were deployed to Sweden, along with Ju-86 bombers, if you read about American and even German planes ended up to Sweden, they were many times escorted to Bulltofta air base by Severskys.

F19_Ob
06-19-2004, 01:57 PM
The dealings with Brittain is fairly well documented. Hurricanes yes but not a single word about spits.

Ive read quite alot about the Finnish AF and the types flown are well documented. If spits were used in finland there would have been documentation because it would have been a very important fighter and the Finns had shortage of them and used the older types although they were obsolete.

The finns also met the spit in combat and if the spit were in finn service there would ofcourse have been the proper tactics documentation on it.



I think this site have a good listing of the Finns ac
http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/faf.html


quicker links:
http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/color.html

http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/aircraft.html

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

AndyHigh
06-20-2004, 11:20 AM
It should be also pointed out that even if Russians generally misidentified Moranes or Fiats as Spitfires, Finland lost only one G.50 and none of the MS-406s in the Winter War 1939-40 (according to the links posted).

Looks like another example of fantastic Soviet overclaims for which one of the reasons might be fear of political officers and their reactions if there was any failures in military operations.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kerranger:
"In the book "Against Finland", mentioned before by Mirek Wawrzynski, there are mentions about Finnish "Spitfires", claimed by Soviet pilots:
26.02.1940 - 4 Spitfires;
29.02.1940 - 2 Spitfires;
02.03.1940 - 4 Spitfires.
All were claimed in Turku area.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Taylortony
06-21-2004, 01:26 AM
no they didnt i can provide you what they did have if you want

Aimosika
06-21-2004, 02:17 AM
Hmmm, Russian "aces" seem to have claimed more kills EVERY DAY that Finnish Air Forces had planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif LOL

Maybe it was politically correct?

RdTimeTheCharm
06-21-2004, 06:00 AM
"Hmmm, Russian "aces" seem to have claimed more kills EVERY DAY that Finnish Air Forces had planes"

Would YOU report to the comissar; "we lost 10 planes, but did not manage to shoot any down"