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james8325
03-19-2004, 04:52 PM
ive had AEP for a while, and i never noticed the 20mm to be so undermodeled as i did today. i was fighting a zero, and i was in a ta-152. i had no altitude on him, and was out of mk-108s. i just flew away from him, and turned around for headons over and over again. i shot 2 20mm hits in one of his wings, 1 in the other, and 2 20mm hits in the tail. he didnt have any damage but a few bullet holes in one wing. this is very very very unrealistic. you cannot tell me that a zero could take 5 20mm hits and still fly like nothing happend. i hope this is fixed in the next patch.

james8325
03-19-2004, 04:52 PM
ive had AEP for a while, and i never noticed the 20mm to be so undermodeled as i did today. i was fighting a zero, and i was in a ta-152. i had no altitude on him, and was out of mk-108s. i just flew away from him, and turned around for headons over and over again. i shot 2 20mm hits in one of his wings, 1 in the other, and 2 20mm hits in the tail. he didnt have any damage but a few bullet holes in one wing. this is very very very unrealistic. you cannot tell me that a zero could take 5 20mm hits and still fly like nothing happend. i hope this is fixed in the next patch.

SkyChimp
03-19-2004, 04:56 PM
Zeros were extremely heavily armored and immune to German cannon fire.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/skychimp.jpg

faustnik
03-19-2004, 05:11 PM
It is a little difficult to take realism criticism from a guy fighting a Zero in a Ta152. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25)

crazyivan1970
03-19-2004, 05:14 PM
Very Funny Chimpy.. you`v been in the cranky mood lately http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

To original poster... are you sure you landed all those 5 hits?

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

JG7_Rall
03-19-2004, 05:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Zeros were extremely heavily armored and immune to German cannon fire.

_Regards,_
_SkyChimp_
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/skychimp.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lmao...awesome

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"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."
When in doubt, climb!

WWMaxGunz
03-19-2004, 05:43 PM
Gee... YATFSWDRTR (Yest Another Thread From Someone Who Doesn't Read The Rest)

Yawwwwnnnnnn!

Many answers elsewhere about this in general. All apply.


Neal

VW-IceFire
03-19-2004, 09:02 PM
Maybe you hit with AP...or with the tracer round?

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Valathar
03-19-2004, 09:08 PM
The 20mm cannon had a friendly or foe detection system, of course since Japan and Germany where allies the 20mm detect the IFF signal and don`t damage the plane.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HQ1
03-19-2004, 09:39 PM
fw190As' firepower advantage has vanished due to crap german 20mm canoon DM model in AEP.yes Oleg said that you do not touch it in AEP.but why dont you think maybe there was a bug in it.

HellToupee
03-19-2004, 11:17 PM
i hit a zeros underside with the spits 20mm guns at about .50 and he went down in flames.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

clint-ruin
03-20-2004, 04:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by james8325:
ive had AEP for a while, and i never noticed the 20mm to be so undermodeled as i did today. i was fighting a zero, and i was in a ta-152. i had no altitude on him, and was out of mk-108s. i just flew away from him, and turned around for headons over and over again. i shot 2 20mm hits in one of his wings, 1 in the other, and 2 20mm hits in the tail. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This will not work in any version of FB.

You are going to have to learn to get your hits in on a single aircraft section.

There is no concept of "5 20mm hits" in FBs DM model.

It sees only the damage you do to individual aircraft segments. The only way for damage on one location to carry over to another is through explosive fragment damage, or bullet bounce/deflection from a hard surface.

Be aware that the DMs break down into more than just 'the wing' or 'the tail'.

The tail has the following components:

Left elevator.
Right elevator.
Rudder.
Vertical stabiliser.
Left horizontal stabiliser.
Right horizontal stabiliser.
The whole stabiliser attachment on most aircraft is also a seperate entity from the fuselage of the aircraft.

The wings usually break down into the following components:

Aileron.
Flaps.
Outter wing surface.
Mid-wing surface.
Wing root surface.

With internal DM components running through them - fuel tanks, control cables, main spars, etc.

While this is not intended as a "learn to fly" style comment, you will find your kills/mission going up a great deal once you learn to account for these factors in your shooting.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

BBB_Hyperion
03-20-2004, 08:19 AM
Zen can you post my DM Track with A4 vs Lagg3 testing mg/ff and Mg151/20 showing wrong and right aimpoints .) Thx in Advance.

Regards,
Hyperion

609IAP_Recon
03-20-2004, 09:22 AM
Clint-ruin

That is very good. The dm setup like that is quite amazing.

I like seeing the complexity it involves. One day someone should make a small movie showing one of the FB aircraft, and a slow motion action of the bullets hitting the aircraft and see the explosion and the effects upon this dm.

Salute!

JG50_Recon

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----
http://www.thepassionofthechrist.com

clint-ruin
03-20-2004, 09:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG50_Recon:
Clint-ruin

That is very good. The dm setup like that is quite amazing.

I like seeing the complexity it involves. One day someone should make a small movie showing one of the FB aircraft, and a slow motion action of the bullets hitting the aircraft and see the explosion and the effects upon this dm.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm working on it, just as a series of tracks and screenshots. The DMs are pretty amazing - the engines of most planes typically have 4-5 different components to hit, for example.

Should have mentioned that there is one more way to get damage to carry over - AP rounds can often penetrate more than one surface. The downside is that unless they're hitting something 'important' they just make a little hole the size of the round and little else.

Put simply - any component you can see removed from a plane in a crash/collision explosion is its own seperate little piece of the DM. Easiest way to find out what you can hit is to blow it up all at once :&gt;

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

[This message was edited by clint-ruin on Sat March 20 2004 at 10:45 AM.]

Luftcaca
03-20-2004, 11:21 AM
"Zeros were extremely heavily armored and immune to German cannon fire."

this time it aint working with me :P

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

VW-IceFire
03-20-2004, 11:37 AM
Tested MG151/20 against Zero's today...and the MG-FF at the same time actually. Blew them up good. No problems here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I find the MG151/20 harder to aim than the Hispano...lower muzzle velocity is to blame obviously. Its a feature of the gun...still, spraying MG151/20 works quite well on any target.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

clint-ruin
03-20-2004, 11:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I find the MG151/20 harder to aim than the Hispano...lower muzzle velocity is to blame obviously. Its a feature of the gun...still, spraying MG151/20 works quite well on any target.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree they Hizookas do seem a lot more predictable. I don't think it's so much to do with muzzle velocity as much as the variation in total momentum of the rounds.

Hispano-Suiza Mk.I
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.129
speed = 860.0
power = 0.012

AP
mass = 0.124
speed = 860.0
power = 0

860 - 860, .005 variation in mass. Not going to see a lot of variation in trajectory.

MG 151/20
// APIT - HE - HE - MG - MG
APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 710.0
power = 0.0036

HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 705.0
power = 0.0044

MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 775.0
power = 0.0186

.023 variation in mass, 70km variation in speed. What makes this even worse to try to compensate for is that the API-Tracer round going to have a markedly different trajectory from the MG shell [65kmh speed, .023 mass] in long range shooting, depending on how FB is calculating loss of speed over distance for those rounds.

I think this might be a key factor in the reason why people are seeing more AP hits than MG hits when they shoot in arcade mode.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

WWMaxGunz
03-20-2004, 12:19 PM
Ahhhhhh, ya get right up close and they all hit! 200m or less will do! The difference will be less than a fuselage thickness but a good bit, maybe even a wing thickness at the root end. Little deflection from the side and above or below (below is best with FW gunsight bar, you lead from the top), the target gets wider and the hits more oblique. Ya wanta come in at an angle on those bombers and fighters don't stand still usually so that's how it should be done anyway!

LOL!


Neal

F19_Ob
03-21-2004, 07:14 AM
Havent noticed any problems with the Ta's 20mm's I shot the tails and wings of B17's without probs.
But as I understand it depends on distance and the angle of the round in order to succed. A 20mm shell could bounce off or just explode on the surface, doing minor damage only. This apparently happened often to the 20mm hispano.


So if a hit fails to do damage it must be a "bouncer" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Maple_Tiger
03-21-2004, 08:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Very Funny Chimpy.. you`v been in the cranky mood lately http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

To original poster... are you sure you landed all those 5 hits?

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I just went into the QMB and took a Ta152 for a spin. I didn't find the 20mm all that bad. He cant expect to down a plane with 1 20mm lol. The Zero's i was shooting at went down with two or three hits.

Then i just had to try the 30mm and omg what a cannon. I love that 30mm. One shot and A6M5 go boom. The Ta-152 seems to have a decent zoom climb. I think im going to start flying this bird more often.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.