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View Full Version : My Multiplayer Review: Thoughts, Opinions and Confirmed Bug List



TheBlazeJp
05-17-2015, 11:10 PM
Since Dreamhack I have been playing a lot of Multiplayer and though I don't often do this I wanted to come on the forums and post my review of the Multiplayer.
I have been playing on PS4 because I'm giving Dpad input a go having had a lot of controller problems recently with my nagging "gamers thumb" Rsi injury which has never fully recovered I can't do the amount of left right inputs as fast as I used to, this is why i'm giving Dpad a go because you can do it faster. It's hard to explain but I wanted to explain why I have been playing on PS4 for anyone curious. Also the population is very high on PS4 so you can always find games which is really cool. Also with streaming playing on PS4 is really relaxing when interacting with everyone. In the long run I plan to start using the PS4 controller on my PC speedruns also.
Anyway thats enough about that, Lets get into the Multiplayer.

http://i.imgur.com/XK2i4u7.png

Over the past week I have played a little over 1000 heats, I assume heats because in the picture above we can see it sais matches. I think it actually means heats though.
I am going to be breaking this review down into 4 parts. The gameplay, The ranking system, The searching/matching system, and what I think could be improved on along with a list of current Bugs with video.

Also before we get in to this, I would like this thread to be Constructive. I don't want people coming in here and either being rude or just straight out solely complaining.

With that said, lets get in to it!

Gameplay

I was originally Invited to play the beta for multiplayer on PC, and I didn't get the time to participate back then. I was busy with speedrun submissions for marathons and a whole lot of things. Though I do wish I put aside some time to get involved earlier. I have grown quite fond of the X-Supercross tracks, and it's crazy to think I hadn't played them until the Dreamhack competition began. The Tracks themselves are good lines, there isn't really one track that I can outright say I do not like.

All the current tracks offer something to the table. Whether it be the more technical lines like warehouse, X-Gymkhana ,Neo Athens or the more flowing medium tracks like Mad Minute, Skyway or Pigeons and Squirrels.

Playing a lot of the X-Supercross recently reminded me of the fun I used to get out of it when playing it on Evo. Making use of the driving line knowledge to know when to slow down and build up speed to make gaps and shortcuts others miss. To me this is one of the most fun parts of Supercross and I have a lot of fond memories with it. With fusion it is even better with the viability of other bikes. It is awesome to see the different strategies and driving lines players use and come up with when using different bikes.

The addition of 4 more lanes makes it even more crazy and fun. I even want to say the higher weighting on X-Supercross once I would of disliked this perhaps but It's actually quite nice to play the majority of MP on tracks designed for the Supercross mode and making use of all the bikes. Viper, Roach and Panda are all very viable on a lot of the tracks and I love this feature of X-Supercross. For me it really mixes it up and makes it exciting and who knows maybe we have more bikes to come? - Would be hilarious at some point with fusion to see 8 rider lanes with each player on a different bike xD

I love the way the 8 lanes looks in game over the traditional ghosts on the same lane. Not to say there's anything wrong with the ghosts single lane, because it's enjoyable to occasionally get the single player tracks. I can honestly say though I don't want to see the weighting changed. The way it is now is great. Imo if the weighting was changed so the Single player tracks had a higher weighting then X-supercross tracks It would take away from the multplayer experience. I feel that if that was to happen there might as well be two separate MP categories. The way X-supercross looks visually is amazing for multiplayer and most importantly is great for viewer experience. I am a person with trials who loves Variety, I love skill games, fmx, single player and x-supercross. I like to see all of these parts of Fusion shine in their own way. X-Supercross has for sure made it's impact with me and I'm loving the gameplay atm.

The Ranking system & Searching/Matching system

Personally I have nothing but praise for the current Ranking system with the exception of one bug that has been brought up and to this point we didn't have proof of, We now do. Refer to the video at the bottom of this OP.

At first the system can be hard to understand. But given time it will make more sense. Personally I now have a good grasp and understanding of it and what I can say is given time the system will balance itself out so any concerns you have at this stage may be a little premature.

I think the whole being punished for faulting makes sense if you are an experienced rider, you shouldn't be faulting. Trials has always had a heavy weighting with faults especially with single player and the global scoring so it makes sense this would transfer to multiplayer.

A player who doesn't fault is a player who proves their consistency as a rider. And consistency is a big part of being a strong Trials player.

Someone may now ask me "If the system is that good, do you think there is any room for improvement?".
To this I say I believe the core and foundation of the current system to be a great fit for Trials. It works well and given time i'm sure it will be proven.
However I do think there is a few improvements that could be implemented. and I will discuss this in the paragraph below.


Priority Matching with Similar Skilled Players

This is a pretty big one I think..
I don't know if there is anything in place to try and match you with players of a similar skill level, but there should be. There are many reasons for this. As a new player to the game im sure you don't want to match against the top players. For example Iv'e had many games where ive matched at 2400+ to 1200s 1300s and 1400s and nobody above the default score. If I was a new player in a Ranked Multplayer system I know i'd want to be playing against people closer to my skill. The same goes for higher ranked players and this is a major concern of mine. Even more so for people who decide to stream their Multiplayer sessions. There is nothing stopping multi accounting and matching against the highest ranked players to purposefully take 500-700 of their points off them.

And if this hasn't happened yet it's just a matter of time before people start doing this for the laughs to ruin peoples days. Because the system matched anyone together there is nothing to stop this and I don't think thats fair on the players. I have seen it happen in many ranked games over the years even much so that I can see someone intentionally quitting out all their games to get a rating so low on a multi account and then purposefully match against a higher player. Imagine a 800 who is a top 10 player matchmaking against a 2500 and winning. Believe me I don't want this to happen but I will be the first to call it now before it does.


Matching Limit

To continue on from what I posted above, A simple fix for this would be to make it so that you can only match against people with a ranking within 1000 of yours for example. And this is only an example number. Say you are 2300 this would mean the best you can rank against is 2800 and the lowest you could rank against is 1800. Imo not only would this improve multplayer experience for newcomers, but also for the more experienced players looking to match against riders of similar skill and it would prevent anyone from multi accounting because it's only a matter of time before it happens.


Points loss Barrier

This is another thing that concerns me, There are some things that can be out of your control in life. Whether it be power cuts, ISP going down in your local area or a whole bucket load of reasons. Including the "Failed to Migrate host Bug" which I will touch on later.
There are some things that you just cant avoid in life and I don't think you should be punished as much as you can be currently. Say your at 2500 and you get a power cut, or your ISP temporarily goes down in your area. You will lose 300-500 score. I know this from experience. I honestly feel there should be a barrier on the amount you can lose for a disconnect. A Middle ground where you don't lose motivation from a massive points drop but at the same time a barrier that still punishes people who intentionally quit,



Current List of Confirmed Bugs.




Overall Leaderboard Bug (PS4,PC)

zzzlol94 Currently has 3200 score, Hes a close friend of mine and told me this happened after quitting and researching.
After the next game he went up 1700. If needed I'm sure I can get more info from him.

Jami286 another friend of mine currently has 127,000+ score on PS4. As far as I know he has not played since getting this score. He seemed baffled when it happened from the best I could see anyway as french is his main language. He did not mention how it happened.


Slow Mo, Timer not affected (13/5/2015)

This occurred on the track Snow Blind. A track that I think is heavier on the resources used right? - It was on PS4.
Interestingly when this happened (http://www.twitch.tv/theblazejp/v/4972614) the timer remained the same, (My timer). Everyone passed me although I did my best to finish lol..


Losing Points when not Faulting and Winning All Heats (16/5/2015)

I was originally skeptical when I heard about this because I hadn't once experienced it and I have played a ton of games.
Though I am now a believer, it happened to me live on stream yesterday. Though I do not know how rare this is to happen.

Heres the video (http://www.twitch.tv/theblazejp/v/5145841) with all heats:


Failure to Migrate Host when searching

This has been mentioned by me in a separate Thread and by the forum user Cocio89 (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1110613-Session-Terminated-Every-Single-Game/page3) and I'm sure more have experienced it.
Sometimes when searching you can get an error after the players have filled up that sais "Failure to Migrate Host", When this happened to me It immediately researched automatically and then put me into a game. At the end of that game I was 270 points less and gained score on my new total. The only thing I can presume from this is that the system thinks it put me into a game that I never actually got into and counted it as a quit.

En0-
05-18-2015, 07:11 AM
Thanks for this really useful thread Blaze.

I'll discuss all that with the engineers and we'll get back to this thread.

Cheers,

scarrha34
05-18-2015, 03:18 PM
Hi, I want to reply to this cause I disagree with what you said on the gameplay part, I understand your opinion but it's just that I have different tastes (and I think other players too).
I am more of a ninja player, I participated to the dreamhack tournament in semi final, and I was really disapointed to see that there was only supercross tracks all along.
I think someone said, when we asked what tracks would be played, that a good trial rider should be good at anything, well I am sorry but that's a contradiction because we only played supercross.
I don't really like supercross tracks, I rather play on solo tracks cause there are just more beautiful and I know them better, and I don't care about not seeing other players, I am focused on my own driving anyway.
What I would love to see is tracks from DLC's, tracks from Uplay and obviously ninja's (not hard ninja just some lvl 1 or 2).
So I know what I said is completly different from what you think, but again I respect your opinion, that's why I think as someone else said in another topic that we should have different MP sections like in evo, one with supercross, one with hard or even extreme tracks and one hardcore section for ninja players.
I know this has been sais but I just want to make it clear for Redlynx dev that : NO I DON'T LIKE SUPERCROSS, and I don't want to see more, and I think I am not alone.

En0-
05-18-2015, 03:39 PM
Hello,

Let's make a difference between Supercross and X-Supercross. The Supercross has lot of differences of gameplay with usual Trials track whereas X-Supercross doesn't have any. :)
"it's more beautiful" and "I know them better" are not related to the fact it's XSX or not.

The reason why XSX is pushed so much in multiplayer is because it's the most watchable mode for outsiders.

Cheers,

scarrha34
05-18-2015, 03:56 PM
Allright but can't you make a better spectator mode for outsiders to enjoy something else than easy and basic driving lines with cheap background ?
And do you really think it's fun to watch the same 11 tracks all over again ?
You can make a spectator mode designed specifically for 1 lane, You could seperate the screen in 2 or 4 parts to see more than 1 player, you could create a camera that choose automatically the best angle and position so we could see a large number of player.
Oh and it's not more watchable all the time, cause in hard and long tracks like warehouse 88, you often see players far away from eachothers, so 8 lanes don't change anything.

TheBlazeJp
05-18-2015, 03:57 PM
Nice constructive post dude. I hope the devs will use some of it to improve mp.


So you are saying that it's important to you to find similar players who play the game at a decent level like you do. So why not play on the only system (xbox one) where Trials Fusion is actually competetive on then? If i was pretty good at a game i would want to test my skills against the best players, instead of avoiding them.

If thats the only thing you surmised from that paragraph I wrote then you didn't really read it correctly my friend. That is but 1 of the many things and topics I was discussing in that paragraph. Multi accounting, New Players, and an Idea of a +500/-500 search criteria to address the points I raised. Yes high level players matching against high level players was part of what was talking about. Remember that that paragraph i wrote and on the response you gave what I wrote wasn't for me. It was written in a general way, something that would benefit all players on all platforms.

And yes for me personally I could play on xbox 1, but the opening paragraph in the OP explains why I am playing on PS4. Especially being a streamer it's much more relaxing when you are simultaneously playing and interacting with a 100/200 strong viewer base, To play to the best of your ability and focus 100% on the gameplay when you are doing this at the same time is no easy feat, I find PS4 to be much more relaxing when I stream.

I have other ways to challenge myself, Using my spreadsheets and trying ti beat my best times during sessions.

Also you would be surprised at some of the Supercross players on PS4, There are some really good ones. Especially on the Panda tracks, they are very good at them.
It seems to be a bike that is used a great deal on PS4 and I like that,

Also I have never been a fan of the xbox 1 controllers triggers. I like triggers with trials to have resistance. X1s has none.
The Dpad on the PS4 controller is in the same natural position as the analog on the 360 controller that I have used for all my Trials over the past 2 year.


Hi, I want to reply to this cause I disagree with what you said on the gameplay part, I understand your opinion but it's just that I have different tastes (and I think other players too).
I am more of a ninja player, I participated to the dreamhack tournament in semi final, and I was really disapointed to see that there was only supercross tracks all along.
I think someone said, when we asked what tracks would be played, that a good trial rider should be good at anything, well I am sorry but that's a contradiction because we only played supercross.
I don't really like supercross tracks, I rather play on solo tracks cause there are just more beautiful and I know them better, and I don't care about not seeing other players, I am focused on my own driving anyway.
What I would love to see is tracks from DLC's, tracks from Uplay and obviously ninja's (not hard ninja just some lvl 1 or 2).
So I know what I said is completly different from what you think, but again I respect your opinion, that's why I think as someone else said in another topic that we should have different MP sections like in evo, one with supercross, one with hard or even extreme tracks and one hardcore section for ninja players.
I know this has been sais but I just want to make it clear for Redlynx dev that : NO I DON'T LIKE SUPERCROSS, and I don't want to see more, and I think I am not alone.

Every Trials player has different taste in the game.
It is more then understandable why an Individual who primarily enjoys Ninjas to dislike Supercross because of the difficulty. And whom also prefers hards/extremes because of this

However just because you don't like it or don't have the same level of appreciation for it doesn't take away from its credits and strengths.
There are also a great deal of players out there who like the difficulty of going as fast as they can on the lower difficulty tracks, and I am among them.

If mutliplayer was just Ninjas and Extremes, No new players to the game would enjoy the experience.

I also think anyone who hands down loves the Single player tracks over the Supercross tracks perhaps should be playing Single player.
The multiplayer experience imo should be unique from single player. Having said this I do like the addition of single lane with ghosts but I feel the current weighting is perfect

I am not saying I would be against a Ninja MP mode for the Ninja community and who knows what the future holds, This may be a very cool feature for you guys, I will note with Ninjas and Multplayer Trials already has this ability with private games and the ability to choose whatever tracks you want your lobby and party to play, Trials has always had this, Just as Trials has always had Supercross and Single lane.

It's important to note that Ninjas and Supercross are completely different worlds in Trials and mixing the two would never work. Especially for new players.

scarrha34
05-18-2015, 04:35 PM
I agree with what you said except one thing, "There are also a great deal of players out there who like the difficulty of going as fast as they can on the lower difficulty tracks, and I am among them."
Don't make me wrong I love speedrun as much as I like ninja, but the deal is not MP in itself, the big issue is competition.
Watching Venomz Pajamaz you or other speedrunner in a competitition is amazing, but knowing that we may never see Peqz, Plopikoosy, Shayne or other beast ninjas in any scene anywhere anytime is really really frustrating.
And I think we both agree saying that both part of the game need to be seen at a pro level, cause both are amazing to watch in their own way.
And still about competition, I think solo tracks should have a bigger weight in competition (maybe not in usual MP), cause pro players are so good at them that the runs we could see on those tracks could be way more impressive than those in supercross tracks ( just pointing the fact that they practice more on solo for obvious reasons).
That's why I think we should have seperate stuff (but I really think we should include solo tracks at least in competitions), but we should also have a middle range stuff so players like Gangly Rob or Classy could also win something. And I think that this middle range stuff (whith easy ninja, supercross and solo tracks) should be used in comp, this way every one has his chance and every player can win by being good in his specialty.

iStriide
05-19-2015, 03:03 AM
Single Player tracks will always be more fun in Multiplayer in my opinion.

iStriide
05-19-2015, 03:08 AM
Since Dreamhack I have been playing a lot of Multiplayer and though I don't often do this I wanted to come on the forums and post my review of

Priority Matching with Similar Skilled Players

This is a pretty big one I think..
I don't know if there is anything in place to try and match you with players of a similar skill level, but there should be. There are many reasons for this. As a new player to the game im sure you don't want to match against the top players. For example Iv'e had many games where ive matched at 2400+ to 1200s 1300s and 1400s and nobody above the default score. If I was a new player in a Ranked Multplayer system I know i'd want to be playing against people closer to my skill. The same goes for higher ranked players and this is a major concern of mine. Even more so for people who decide to stream their Multiplayer sessions. There is nothing stopping multi accounting and matching against the highest ranked players to purposefully take 500-700 of their points off them.

And if this hasn't happened yet it's just a matter of time before people start doing this for the laughs to ruin peoples days. Because the system matched anyone together there is nothing to stop this and I don't think thats fair on the players. I have seen it happen in many ranked games over the years even much so that I can see someone intentionally quitting out all their games to get a rating so low on a multi account and then purposefully match against a higher player. Imagine a 800 who is a top 10 player matchmaking against a 2500 and winning. Believe me I don't want this to happen but I will be the first to call it now before it does.



Only thing about the higher leveled people is that as the multiplayer population declines, which it will, it'll be even harder for people to find a game at higher ratings.

En0-
05-22-2015, 08:03 AM
Hello,

I just wanted to update you.

We have some improvements and fixes coming, not in the next update but in the following one.

We'll give more details when things are clearer on our side but thanks a lot for the report. It helped a lot.

Cheers,

TheeDesecrator
05-23-2015, 09:16 AM
Hello,

Let's make a difference between Supercross and X-Supercross. The Supercross has lot of differences of gameplay with usual Trials track whereas X-Supercross doesn't have any. :)
"it's more beautiful" and "I know them better" are not related to the fact it's XSX or not.

The reason why XSX is pushed so much in multiplayer is because it's the most watchable mode for outsiders.

Cheers,

I think it's even deeper than that, En0. It's easier to play as well. You fine folks knocked it out of the park as far as I'm concerned when it comes to multiplayer. If RedLynx decides on another Trials game instead of Season 2 for Fusion, I cannot see how you can make multiplayer more functional besides the obvious (include more UGC, etc.). I really don't think I can state how great a job you guys did on multiplayer. Which is odd, since I rarely touch the feature, but I see it and see the work.

LIONDEN1
05-23-2015, 03:26 PM
Was wondering if anyone knew why a lot of the top players (xbox one) are throwing races in MP?

BeardinUSA
05-24-2015, 01:51 AM
Every Trials player has different taste in the game.
It is more then understandable why an Individual who primarily enjoys Ninjas to dislike Supercross because of the difficulty. And whom also prefers hards/extremes because of this

However just because you don't like it or don't have the same level of appreciation for it doesn't take away from its credits and strengths.
There are also a great deal of players out there who like the difficulty of going as fast as they can on the lower difficulty tracks, and I am among them.

If mutliplayer was just Ninjas and Extremes, No new players to the game would enjoy the experience.

I also think anyone who hands down loves the Single player tracks over the Supercross tracks perhaps should be playing Single player.
The multiplayer experience imo should be unique from single player. Having said this I do like the addition of single lane with ghosts but I feel the current weighting is perfect

I am not saying I would be against a Ninja MP mode for the Ninja community and who knows what the future holds, This may be a very cool feature for you guys, I will note with Ninjas and Multplayer Trials already has this ability with private games and the ability to choose whatever tracks you want your lobby and party to play, Trials has always had this, Just as Trials has always had Supercross and Single lane.

It's important to note that Ninjas and Supercross are completely different worlds in Trials and mixing the two would never work. Especially for new players.

I dont think anyone buys trials primarily for the online supercross. Its fun for a hot minute but the main draw of trials for the general population is overcoming obstacles you previously couldnt, not shaving fractions of a second off your times. Hardcore trials in evo is the only reason I stuck with the game rather than tossing it aside after getting stuck on the extreme tracks. Practicing in a multiplayer environment made improving fun, whereas grinding the same track in single player was a chore.

However, if a player is timing out on inferno 4, he can play 100 hours of x-supercross and he will still be timing out on inferno 4. I think the main draw of multiplayer is as a learning tool for players... its not like call of duty where people will buy the game just for the multiplayer and ignore the single player altogether.

Maybe in an alternate universe where the game launched with robust multiplayer mode we might be singing a different tune. But at this stage in the game the majority of the players still sticking around are the ones that appreciate the single player experience and simply want different ways to enjoy that experience.

But even for the few new players still picking up this game, they arent going to have fun in x-supercross if they are constantly getting their teeth kicked in by trials pros. Having a separate mode designed for veterans allows the playerbase to self segregate and makes the multiplayer more fun for new players and veterans alike.

En0-
06-08-2015, 10:25 AM
Hello,

We deployed an update server side this morning that should help with the rating calculation. It should fix the "huge unexpected rating" we saw a couple of times.







Priority Matching with Similar Skilled Players

This is a pretty big one I think..
I don't know if there is anything in place to try and match you with players of a similar skill level, but there should be. There are many reasons for this. As a new player to the game im sure you don't want to match against the top players. For example Iv'e had many games where ive matched at 2400+ to 1200s 1300s and 1400s and nobody above the default score. If I was a new player in a Ranked Multplayer system I know i'd want to be playing against people closer to my skill. The same goes for higher ranked players and this is a major concern of mine. Even more so for people who decide to stream their Multiplayer sessions. There is nothing stopping multi accounting and matching against the highest ranked players to purposefully take 500-700 of their points off them.

And if this hasn't happened yet it's just a matter of time before people start doing this for the laughs to ruin peoples days. Because the system matched anyone together there is nothing to stop this and I don't think thats fair on the players. I have seen it happen in many ranked games over the years even much so that I can see someone intentionally quitting out all their games to get a rating so low on a multi account and then purposefully match against a higher player. Imagine a 800 who is a top 10 player matchmaking against a 2500 and winning. Believe me I don't want this to happen but I will be the first to call it now before it does.




We observed, from our stats, that it works now better that the ratings are mores stabilized. Does it reflect what you experience in-game?





Overall Leaderboard Bug (PS4,PC)

zzzlol94 Currently has 3200 score, Hes a close friend of mine and told me this happened after quitting and researching.
After the next game he went up 1700. If needed I'm sure I can get more info from him.

Jami286 another friend of mine currently has 127,000+ score on PS4. As far as I know he has not played since getting this score. He seemed baffled when it happened from the best I could see anyway as french is his main language. He did not mention how it happened.



We have fixed the bug that made that happened (in this morning update), but we haven't reset these 2 ranking yet. We should do it as it's not expected to have these values.






Slow Mo, Timer not affected (13/5/2015)

This occurred on the track Snow Blind. A track that I think is heavier on the resources used right? - It was on PS4.
Interestingly when this happened (http://www.twitch.tv/theblazejp/v/4972614) the timer remained the same, (My timer). Everyone passed me although I did my best to finish lol..



We can't reproduce the issue, so that's really hard to investigate. No update on that and I don't think we'll find what happens. It looks like a 1/100 or 1/1000 issue as it's not much reported though.





Losing Points when not Faulting and Winning All Heats (16/5/2015)

I was originally skeptical when I heard about this because I hadn't once experienced it and I have played a ton of games.
Though I am now a believer, it happened to me live on stream yesterday. Though I do not know how rare this is to happen.

Heres the video (http://www.twitch.tv/theblazejp/v/5145841) with all heats:



We're working on that.





Failure to Migrate Host when searching

This has been mentioned by me in a separate Thread and by the forum user Cocio89 (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1110613-Session-Terminated-Every-Single-Game/page3) and I'm sure more have experienced it.
Sometimes when searching you can get an error after the players have filled up that sais "Failure to Migrate Host", When this happened to me It immediately researched automatically and then put me into a game. At the end of that game I was 270 points less and gained score on my new total. The only thing I can presume from this is that the system thinks it put me into a game that I never actually got into and counted it as a quit.



Did you experience that recently again?

Cheers,

TeriXeri
06-09-2015, 01:38 PM
Personally I think ninja multiplayer need to be always seperate, or just be private lobby unranked gameplay.

To me competing on ninjas makes more sense in it's current form (leaderboards faults/time), in multiplayer different players will get stuck at obstacles and might not even see eachother (ghost or lane) for 10 minutes.

My prediction is that most ninjas matches would also end up with someone finishing and the rest most certainly DNF'ing.

---

Multiplayer should be a nice balance of Easy to Extreme tracks (including UGC). & including XSX.

Also no super-long tracks, shorter matches keeps the player base going and matchmaking varied rather then getting people stuck.

I believe the fault limit in MP is like 100, dunno if there's any time limit.

Voting screen need to be varied, preferably like 3 different difficulty options at any one time.

---

I can understand people want seperate Hardcore Trials (just Hard/Extreme tracks) back, I just don't know how many players are playing MP at any one time these days but I haven't really been able to fill up matches more then 2 or 3 player recently. (PC).

Seperation is only good if it has the numbers to back it up.

Evo Gold quick match did work to find games, but it still seemed put me more in supercross/easy trials most of the time.

LIONDEN1
06-29-2015, 12:28 PM
I don't know about ps4 or PC players but the pro riders on xbox one, usually the ones around 2300 points seem to be dumping points, all the way down to the 1700's just to steal the points from the casual players, this isn't fair or fun at all. Its actually just plain mean, they are clearly just board and want to ruin it for the rest of us, points system I just a mess in so many ways.