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EmptyCrustacean
05-16-2015, 02:27 PM
Calling it now. It's going to become the star feature of navigation.
Syndicate is going to be the Black Flag of AC with the attention from Assassins shifting to gangs like the way it went from Assassins to pirates.
It will be a good game that won't be an Assassin's Creed one. Not looking forward to that aspect :(

Going4Quests
05-16-2015, 02:39 PM
Oh but it will be an Assassin's Creed one. The devs have stated that the Assassins (Jacob & Evie) are born Assassins who know from the beginning who the enemies are (Templars). We will have big Assassin vs Templar plots! :D

VestigialLlama4
05-16-2015, 02:40 PM
Calling it now. It's going to become the star feature of navigation.
Syndicate is going to be the Black Flag of AC with the attention from Assassins shifting to gangs like the way it went from Assassins to pirates.
It will be a good game that won't be an Assassin's Creed one. Not looking forward to that aspect :(

So does that mean horses were the ships of the Ezio/Altair era...I am confused. Do we fight legendary carriages?

A ship as a gameplay concept can't be changed simply to other means of transportation, leave alone carriages. You can maybe do that with say, a Train, but that's still limited by railway tracks.

As for whether SYNDICATE or BLACK FLAG are "Assassin's Creed"...technically no game aside from AC1 (set in the actual historical period) can be called Assassin's Creed. The point is the Creed is a concept that transcends boundaries, languages and religions so it can be modified to many different eras and outfits. Ezio's games in Renaissance Italy are not any more or any less AC than Connor in AC3 or Edward in Black Flag.

Shahkulu101
05-16-2015, 02:41 PM
Calling it now. It's going to become the star feature of navigation.
Syndicate is going to be the Black Flag of AC with the attention from Assassins shifting to gangs like the way it went from Assassins to pirates.
It will be a good game that won't be an Assassin's Creed one. Not looking forward to that aspect :(

Jumping the gun a bit there, yes the trailer features gangs but that doesn't necessarily mean that feature will take precedence over everything else. I think it might be what pirates were to AC4, but not to the same extent. Plus, Evie and Jacob are born Assassin's serving the Brotherhood. As long as we are killing fools in order to further an Assassin goal - and using parkour and stealth to do it - then it's Assassin's Creed. About carriages, why would them being heavily featured mean it's not AC? It would just be the game adapting to the time period, and the point of the series is history being it's playground. The beauty of Assassin's Creed is that we can explore different eras of history which give each game a different flavor. People say AC4 wasn't AC because Edward wasn't an Assassin for large parts of the story and we used ships. However, the game involved both Assassin's and Templar's who were integral to the story line, the story was an analyzation of the Creed (which the Ezio trilogy wasn't - apart from ACR), and the core mechanics of the game were stealth, combat and parkour. For me, that's the criteria that a game needs to be called AC. Every one has a different opinion, but I think we should be as open minded as possible...

VestigialLlama4
05-16-2015, 02:45 PM
Jumping the gun a bit there, yes the trailer features gangs but that doesn't necessarily mean that feature will take precedence over everything else. I think it might be what pirates were to AC4, but not to the same extent. Plus, Evie and Jacob are born Assassin's serving the Brotherhood. As long as we are killing fools in order to further an Assassin goal - and using parkour and stealth to do it - then it's Assassin's Creed. About carriages, why would them being heavily featured mean it's not AC? It would just be the game adapting to the time period, and the point of the series is history being it's playground. The beauty of Assassin's Creed is that we can explore different eras of history which give each game a different flavor. People say AC4 wasn't AC because Edward wasn't an Assassin for large parts of the story and we used ships. However, the game involved both Assassin's and Templar's who were integral to the story line, the story was an analyzation of the Creed (which the Ezio trilogy wasn't - apart from ACR), and the core mechanics of the game were stealth, combat and parkour. For me, that's the criteria that a game needs to be called AC. Every one has a different opinion, but I think we should be as open minded as possible...

Carriages should have ideally been there in UNITY, 18th Century Paris had really bad carriage traffic and crazy drivers. By the 19th Century, you should be seeing diverse carriages like the Omnibus, which is essentially public transport (first introduced in Paris and then copied by every major city in Europe), and horse drawn multi-layered stagecoaches. The Bus derives from Omnibus, which did the same function, and looked like a miniature single decker one.

SixKeys
05-16-2015, 02:46 PM
I think you're jumping into conclusions. Carriages can't be "the new naval" because naval was about battling enemies while steering your vessel. We might get races and probably chases like in the demo, but naval was a very different beast compared to horse-drawn carriages.

I am worried about the second part of your theory though, about the focus shifting to gang brawls instead of stealthy assassinations. But this wouldn't be the first time. They were doing that long before AC4.

Going4Quests
05-16-2015, 02:46 PM
I think carriages in Unity would have been chaotic with the amount of people on the streets. :P

SixKeys
05-16-2015, 02:51 PM
I think carriages in Unity would have been chaotic with the amount of people on the streets. :P

They were meant to be in the game, but had to be cut due to time constraints.

VestigialLlama4
05-16-2015, 02:51 PM
I think carriages in Unity would have been chaotic with the amount of people on the streets. :P

Well that's how it was in Paris at the 18th Century...why do you think they had a revolution for? Obviously the people learnt to duck out of the way to avoid being run-over. During the French Revolution, you had taxi cabs as well and they would get into all kinds of fights and be arrested for driving too fast...there were traffic jams as well. I wonder if SYNDICATE will have any of that.


I am worried about the second part of your theory though, about the focus shifting to gang brawls instead of stealthy assassinations. But this wouldn't be the first time. They were doing that long before AC4.

Well Black Flag was a fairly stealthy game. A lot of UNITY's stealth mechanics derive from Black Flag rather than AC1.

SixKeys
05-16-2015, 02:59 PM
Well Black Flag was a fairly stealthy game. A lot of UNITY's stealth mechanics derive from Black Flag rather than AC1.

I said they were doing that before Black Flag. ACB had stealth sections too, but it was basically all about gang wars, fighting for control over Rome. You even had La Volpe's thieves vs. the Cento Occhi, and Bartolomeo's mercenaries battling the French. People like to think the Ezio games were somehow a lot stealthier than the newer games, but the difference isn't actually that great.

VestigialLlama4
05-16-2015, 03:06 PM
I said they were doing that before Black Flag. ACB had stealth sections too, but it was basically all about gang wars, fighting for control over Rome. You even had La Volpe's thieves vs. the Cento Occhi, and Bartolomeo's mercenaries battling the French.

Ezio's games aren't gang wars, they are populist uprising and revolt. He's raising the people of Rome against the Borgia, he's a resistance leader who's removing one corrupt Pope and putting another corrupt Pope in power. That is a significant difference...ah who am I kidding ;)


People like to think the Ezio games were somehow a lot stealthier than the newer games, but the difference isn't actually that great.

AC2 was stealthy but Brotherhood and Revelations less so, though Farlander says Revelations has more stealth options and opportunities than AC2 in his analysis. In terms of main missions, Revelations is even less stealthier and more scripted than AC3.

Legendz54
05-16-2015, 03:10 PM
Well from what Shade said "Time will tell" whether there will be naval combat in AC Syndicate.. So hopefully it is there.

Farlander1991
05-16-2015, 03:14 PM
I said they were doing that before Black Flag. ACB had stealth sections too, but it was basically all about gang wars, fighting for control over Rome. You even had La Volpe's thieves vs. the Cento Occhi, and Bartolomeo's mercenaries battling the French. People like to think the Ezio games were somehow a lot stealthier than the newer games, but the difference isn't actually that great.

Shameless self-plug... (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eQ07CEUfoueQIWBYLiKNUw9a7jz4UarIN82bv2ZxNOk/edit?pli=1#gid=0) to confirm your words :rolleyes:

(Need to do a proper one for Unity, but the 'beta' quick count placed its stealth viability at around 70% IIRC)

generallsj
05-16-2015, 03:42 PM
Brotherhood = Gangs

and AC Brotherhood stealth viability of entire missions is about to 70%.

Farlander1991
05-16-2015, 03:50 PM
Brotherhood = Gangs

and AC Brotherhood stealth viability of entire missions is about to 70%.


You can read more about the stealth viability sheet I've linked to here (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/898522-Assassin-s-Creed-series-stealth-viability-sheet) (the principles of how it's calculated are described there), but in terms of viability (i.e. where stealth can or should be used) Brotherhood is not at 70% but much less in total.

I worked long on that stuff so I know what I'm talking about :p

(the sheet doesn't say anything about the quality of stealth, though, but that's a much harder thing to make data for)

generallsj
05-16-2015, 04:23 PM
It might because you missed something or I calculated cutscene to stealth mission.

D.I.D.
05-16-2015, 04:26 PM
Naval combat was a much bigger deal. That feature was a unit-shifter by itself, whereas I can't see horses being anything more than a welcome return for fans of the series.

It's good news for console players, I guess. If they've improved performance so much since Unity that the engine can now cope with high-speed forward movement without the game turning into a slideshow, it must be very solid now.

Farlander1991
05-16-2015, 05:20 PM
It might because you missed something or I calculated cutscene to stealth mission.

If you have your own calculations, don't keep 'em to yourself then, share them with us :rolleyes:

bitebug2003
05-16-2015, 05:47 PM
I don't like that lampposts and bins and other road side objects go flying, the horse would have been seriously injured smashing in to a lamppost and it's a bit unrealistic to me

Altair1789
05-16-2015, 05:58 PM
Well from what Shade said "Time will tell" whether there will be naval combat in AC Syndicate.. So hopefully it is there.

I don't think there will be naval combat, but if we can't ride steamboats I'll be pretty surprised

cawatrooper9
05-16-2015, 06:03 PM
From what I've seen in the trailers, I was thinking that the gang fights would be the new "naval combat", in that they seem to be an innovative and integral new part of the franchise unique to this game.

VestigialLlama4
05-16-2015, 06:22 PM
From what I've seen in the trailers, I was thinking that the gang fights would be the new "naval combat", in that they seem to be an innovative and integral new part of the franchise unique to this game.

Well, I don't know about that. Brotherhood had the ability to call Assassin Recruits in Combat after all. And if you marched up the long bridge on the way to the Vatican, you can essentially fight several Papal Guards by calling the Brothers and Sisters to march against them. The final mission in ACB, where you and everyone fights Cesare's armies before the gates of Rome is essentially a vast gang fight, if instead of using the Apple you summon all your brothers and fight againt them. Some of the fun in Brotherhood is actually fighting with those AI. Like one time I fought a bunch of guards and one of the recruits was close to dying and I had to charge in and rescue them. In Black Flag, you could invoke this when you board ships, you fight beside your crew against Spanish Soldiers and you have to kill a certain amount and take them down. likewise you have to take the fort and summarily execute the captain (or you can use your fists and punch him out or go behind him for a non-lethal KO). You really do bond with your AI recruits and become like a mother to them. Worried about their careers, their health and always fierce in protecting them.

So far, I don't think Syndicate has anything really unique.
- Carriages have been there in scripted sequences in earlier games, and we've had open-world horses in Rome and AC3.
- Even the Rope Launcher. Mechanically, its the lifts that we've had in Brotherhood, only now something you can carry, and you shoot a zipline and travel across and that's kind of like the Hookblade in REVELATIONS. Potentially it can make Syndicate a Spiderman game where you know you rappel from building to building across rooftops in broad daylight.
- The whole brawling mechanic is likewise from AC3 (though Brotherhood had the underground Fight Club too).

So what I see in Syndicate is streamlining and repackaging of old features (Assassin Recruits, Pirate Recruits and bringing them to fights, Hookblade and Lifts, Carriages and Horses) than anything really new. UNITY didn't bring new features either, all it did was take features away. It followed from the logic of the Castel Sant'Angelo levels in Brotherhood to fully interactive exteriors and interiors. So far AC3 is the last genuinely innovative title in the franchise.

EmptyCrustacean
05-16-2015, 06:46 PM
Jumping the gun a bit there, yes the trailer features gangs but that doesn't necessarily mean that feature will take precedence over everything else. I think it might be what pirates were to AC4, but not to the same extent. Plus, Evie and Jacob are born Assassin's serving the Brotherhood. As long as we are killing fools in order to further an Assassin goal - and using parkour and stealth to do it - then it's Assassin's Creed. About carriages, why would them being heavily featured mean it's not AC? It would just be the game adapting to the time period, and the point of the series is history being it's playground. The beauty of Assassin's Creed is that we can explore different eras of history which give each game a different flavor. People say AC4 wasn't AC because Edward wasn't an Assassin for large parts of the story and we used ships. However, the game involved both Assassin's and Templar's who were integral to the story line, the story was an analyzation of the Creed (which the Ezio trilogy wasn't - apart from ACR), and the core mechanics of the game were stealth, combat and parkour. For me, that's the criteria that a game needs to be called AC. Every one has a different opinion, but I think we should be as open minded as possible...

re bib I don't like Assassins being used that way. It works in a game like Watchdogs where Blume and Dedsec are rival societies in the background with Aiden just using both sides to his own personal advantage but this franchise sold me on the Assassin Brotherhood and I would like it to continue telling that story from their perspective.

Shahkulu101
05-16-2015, 06:51 PM
re bib I don't like Assassins being used that way. It works in a game like Watchdogs where Blume and Dedsec are rival societies in the background with Aiden just using both sides to his own personal advantage but this franchise sold me on the Assassin Brotherhood and I would like it to continue telling that story from their perspective.

Yeah that's fair enough, personally I don't mind the protagonist not being an Assassin by name every now and then. I mean if it was like that in all the games then I'd have a problem with it but since we're getting so many games I like to get fresh perspectives. AC4 was refreshing in that regard, an outsider looking in - coming to understand both orders and the Creed and developing his own perspective. I'd be lying though if I said I didn't wish we had a few more missions as an Assassin.

Megas_Doux
05-16-2015, 07:35 PM
I am worried about the second part of your theory though, about the focus shifting to gang brawls instead of stealthy assassinations. But this wouldn't be the first time. They were doing that long before AC4.

Im really worried on that regard because Corey may is directing........

Shahkulu101
05-16-2015, 07:58 PM
Im really worried on that regard because Corey may is directing........

Directing the narrative...

What's up with Corey anyway? I'm pleased he's working in the series directly again.

Megas_Doux
05-16-2015, 08:03 PM
Directing the narrative...



I thought his role was similar to the one he had in AC III.......



What's up with Corey anyway?



AC IIIs gameplay :P

harsab
05-16-2015, 08:04 PM
Im really worried on that regard because Corey may is directing........

Oh the guy that created the best AC game to date is directing the new one? Oh god...what an abomination.

Megas_Doux
05-16-2015, 08:10 PM
Oh the guy that created the best AC game to date is directing the new one? Oh god...what an abomination.


To each his own.

I disliked the "warrior-esque" gameplay AC III had written all over it. Mostly the fact that AC III is one giant QTE divided into pieces, thing is I look for open assassinations in the franchise and AC III has just two of those. The rest is, I as I said, just linear stuff crowned by QTEs......


The story is good, but I hated its gameplay,

Shahkulu101
05-16-2015, 08:11 PM
I thought his role was similar to the one he had in AC III.......




AC IIIs gameplay :P

But...he writes the story. :confused:

Megas_Doux
05-16-2015, 08:14 PM
But...he writes the story. :confused:

Thats good! I liked AC IIIs story.

My main gripe with AC III its is "warrior-esque" gameplay. However, as I said to Namikaze, I might be bitter at the moment because Im having that feeling of "its over" like when you end a relationship and I certainly DO NOT like it.

Shahkulu101
05-16-2015, 08:17 PM
Thats good! I liked AC IIIs story.

My main gripe with AC III its is "warrior-esque" gameplay. However, as I said to Namikaze, I might be bitter at the moment because Im having that feeling of "its over" like when you end a relationship and I certainly DO NOT like it.

Okay, was just confused since Corey has nothing to do with gameplay.

Well, maybe not nothing but it's not his main job.

EmptyCrustacean
05-16-2015, 08:30 PM
Im really worried on that regard because Corey may is directing........

He's a good writer though. The dialogue in AC1 is the best.
Also, I've read your further posts. IIRC Corey May merely wrote the story for AC3 he didn't do the gameplay.
And seeing as this game is basically modelled on Unity I doubt the series will return to the rigidness of the previous games.
Lastly, I liked AC3 anyway.

Civona
05-16-2015, 10:55 PM
The main difference between carriages and naval combat is that naval combat can only be used to travel OUTSIDE of the areas that you can do ground-based gameplay on.

Carriages have more in common with the gondolas in Venice in AC2: they allow you to move very quickly along paths that criss-cross through the city, and you can steal them rather than having to use a specific one.

The way Naval combat worked it was more like actually becoming a different character from another game: When you crash a ship, the game desychronizes. When you crash a carriage, you jump out of it and find a new one or run away.

Plus there's some of the extra features they talked about like fighting enemies on top of it, hiding inside it, or deliberately crashing it to get a boost to your jump. You don't need to worry about it forcing you to basically play a different game, because it seems very integrated into the existing one.

How well it will be integrated is what we can't quite say yet!

SixKeys
05-16-2015, 11:07 PM
Oh the guy that created the best AC game to date is directing the new one? Oh god...what an abomination.

Patrice Desilets created AC. He doesn't work for Ubisoft anymore. Corey wrote one absolutely amazing script (AC1), one mediocre one (AC2) and one abomination (AC3). His track record so far is a bit uneven.

harsab
05-16-2015, 11:22 PM
Patrice Desilets created AC. He doesn't work for Ubisoft anymore. Corey wrote one absolutely amazing script (AC1), one mediocre one (AC2) and one abomination (AC3). His track record so far is a bit uneven.

Yeah i meant narrative director & i'm not sure...i like all the stories up to AC3 due to it being so heavily tied in with the Lore...after that i'm not so sure...

Shahkulu101
05-17-2015, 09:33 AM
Patrice Desilets created AC. He doesn't work for Ubisoft anymore. Corey wrote one absolutely amazing script (AC1), one mediocre one (AC2) and one abomination (AC3). His track record so far is a bit uneven.

I'm sorry AC3's story was a bit messy but the actual script was not an abomination. The Templar white room speech were the best since AC1, Haytham and Connor's interactions were fantastic and built a believable, touchingly tragic relationship. All in all it was probably the most mature script the series has done.

EmptyCrustacean
05-17-2015, 09:51 AM
I'm sorry AC3's story was a bit messy but the actual script was not an abomination. The Templar white room speech were the best since AC1, Haytham and Connor's interactions were fantastic and built a believable, touchingly tragic relationship. All in all it was probably the most mature script the series has done.

My issue with AC3 story is the issue I have with the oevrall game - a decent story but not an AC one.

VestigialLlama4
05-17-2015, 11:53 AM
My issue with AC3 story is the issue I have with the oevrall game - a decent story but not an AC one.

I am a big fan of AC3. But even I think, the script in AC3 is weak in terms of plotholes and logic. It is strong in characterization and dialogue but its got several inconsistencies and weaknesses.

1) Main problem is that the script relies on cheap melodrama over logical progression and development of characters. The biggest culprit is the revelation that Washington is behind the attack on Connor's village as a young man. The problems with this are numerous. This does not explain what Charles Lee was doing that day near the village. Was he trying to warn the village? (If so, why did they not tell the Kid and tell him to warn his Elders?), Was he there for some First Civ research? (If so, why disobey Haytham who told them to quit chasing that? Does that imply that Charles Lee is trying to usurp Haytham and doing missions on his own?) The other part is if Washington ordered the attack on Connor's village as a young man, why does Washington immediately defend himself to Haytham? why is there no closure between Connor and Washington? How are we supposed to take the two of them playing bowls in New York after the game is over? These are pure melodramatic gimmicks contrived to give Connor an immediate reason to hate Charles Lee and an immediate reason to break ties with Washington. They were trying to tell a more complicated gray story in AC3 but they used rather bluntly written scenes to get the point across.

2) AC3 is overwritten. Connor has something like three origin stories. One his mother is killed (to his four year old eyes) by a group of white folks who he finds out are Templars one of whom racially abused him. Second origin is him and Kanento;kon hunting and Connor noting that eventually the settlers will envelop them and drive them away from their land and he's worried about the future. This origin I can get behind too, its logical and reflective of Connor's reality. Third origin is Juno sent him on a Vision Quest by posing as the Great Spirit. Any one of these origins would have done, all three together is unnecessary.

3) Likewise AC3 not feeling like an AC game. The American Revolution is heavily featured in the story and the game but we don't feel personally involved because none of the major historical figures are Assassins. In AC2, Machiavelli was an Assassin, in BLACK FLAG, Mary Read is an Assassin, even in Unity, you had Mirabeau as the Mentor of the Assassins. Making the American Founders part of a quasi-Islamic Assassin cult would have made AC a difficult sell in the United States I'll admit, but you know you could have worked it in somehow. Someone like Samuel Adams, Israel Putnam or maybe Aaron Burr and John Paul Jones should have been an Assassin and a patriot for Connor to feel involved in the conflict.

The game still works on a moment-to-moment level (its like Casablanca in that sense, a movie with a nonsense illogical plot) the histrorical recreations as the Templar death-bed conversations but plot wise its deeply confusing and unsatisfying. It doesn't cohere. The same flaws are repeated in UNITY, Arno has three origins, inconsistent in terms of his status with the Assassin Council, his relationship with Napoleon. But unlike AC3, it doesn't have the solid historical basis, it doesn't have good characterization and good dialogue and is weak on a moment-to-moment level. It also lacks the Homestead (which is a nice standalone section that in itself is totally consistent and satisfying with a strong satisfying finish). For Syndicate I wish they stick to simple origins, in AC1 (Altair is a part of the historical Assassins which actually exist, so no origin required), AC2 (Ezio's a rich kid who's out to Avenge his Assassin Dad by hunting the Templars). Black Flag (Edward's a pirate, robs a traitor Assassin and unwittingly screws over both Assassins and Templars and gets tangled in their schenanigans, hilarity ensues).