PDA

View Full Version : Jets questions



BlitzPig_DDT
03-06-2004, 12:27 PM
Just a few questions about the jets.

The YP-80 has a yellow (amber, whichever) light on the dash that seems to be linked to elevator trim. When any amount of trim is applied in any direction, the light goes out. Reset to neutral and it comes back on. What is the purpose or intent behind this?

The 162, 229, and I think even the 262, have 2 needles on their speed gauges. They often move at different rates and sometimes seperate and others get closer together. At first, I thought 1 might be TAS or CAS, and the other IAS, but, I do kinda wonder how they'd calculate that, but, it doesn't seem to behave that way. It looks almost random what they display. What are this needles, what do they really show? I wonder if I'm just missing something.

Why does the YP-80 flame out so often?

Why do the 229 and 162 spontaneously combust under G load? The 229 seems to do it most often. It seems VERY suspicious to me, but, beyond that, I just want to know exactly what induces it so I can work around it. Some have suggested it might be engine heat related, but, my experimenting has shown it to appear quite random.

Also, Shooting Star, Komet (rocket, yeah, I know), Salamander/Volksjaeger, Schwalbe.....does the 229 have a name (like that)?

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

BlitzPig_DDT
03-06-2004, 12:27 PM
Just a few questions about the jets.

The YP-80 has a yellow (amber, whichever) light on the dash that seems to be linked to elevator trim. When any amount of trim is applied in any direction, the light goes out. Reset to neutral and it comes back on. What is the purpose or intent behind this?

The 162, 229, and I think even the 262, have 2 needles on their speed gauges. They often move at different rates and sometimes seperate and others get closer together. At first, I thought 1 might be TAS or CAS, and the other IAS, but, I do kinda wonder how they'd calculate that, but, it doesn't seem to behave that way. It looks almost random what they display. What are this needles, what do they really show? I wonder if I'm just missing something.

Why does the YP-80 flame out so often?

Why do the 229 and 162 spontaneously combust under G load? The 229 seems to do it most often. It seems VERY suspicious to me, but, beyond that, I just want to know exactly what induces it so I can work around it. Some have suggested it might be engine heat related, but, my experimenting has shown it to appear quite random.

Also, Shooting Star, Komet (rocket, yeah, I know), Salamander/Volksjaeger, Schwalbe.....does the 229 have a name (like that)?

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

porcupine1
03-06-2004, 12:46 PM
bump!

Haaskalintu
03-06-2004, 12:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also, Shooting Star, Komet (rocket, yeah, I know), Salamander/Volksjaeger, Schwalbe.....does the 229 have a name (like that)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Flying Wing, Horten Wing? That's all I now

BlitzPig_DDT
03-06-2004, 03:07 PM
bump

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

BuzzU
03-06-2004, 03:39 PM
I find it hard to believe the real P-80 flamed out so easy.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/eagles/4fg.jpg

03-06-2004, 04:29 PM
Get used to reality, folks. The YP-80 has a centrifigual turbojet, not an axial like the German jets.

The throttle lever is linked DIRECTLY to the fuel metering system. There is no computer to interpret your wishes into healthy throttle transients.

Centrifugal jets take longer to spool up.

Increasing throttle quickly dumps excess fuel before the RPMs and airflow have a chance to increase. The engine can flood or catch fire.

Decreasing throttle quickly reduces fuel flow before the RPMs and airflow have a chance to decrease. If the burner cans run too lean they'll flame out. Reduce throttle gradually, only as fast as the RPMs change.

Later 1st generation jets often had speedbrakes and/or thrust attenuators so you could keep your engine spooled on landing approach. The YP-80 is just a prototype. It has no speedbrakes. It can be tricky.

Whiners should be glad enough that Oleg allows you to throttle the engine all the way to 0% without cutting out.

BuzzU
03-06-2004, 04:42 PM
Cosmo,

I take it you've flown one in real life?


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/eagles/4fg.jpg

03-06-2004, 04:47 PM
Yup. T-37 with centrifugal jets. Drop the thrust attenuators out and keep 'em spooled up when you'r e in the pattern, otherwise it takes too long to get the power back if you need to go around.

Most planes have a black box between the go-stick and the engine, so you won't accidentally flame out or flood the engine. Not necessarily fly-by-wire, but at least some sort of mechanical rig.

Also, modern jet engines are far more tolerant to rapid throttle changes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BuzzU
03-06-2004, 07:07 PM
I did a few more flights against some 262's, and did much better. I even shot a couple of them down. Then I did some take off/landings. Taking off was pretty easy, but trying to slow down for landing is a bear. It glides too good, and you can't get the flaps down to early or they jam. It needs an air brake, and i'm going to feel stupid if it has one. I forgot to look.


Edit..Oops! I see an air brake on the list. I'll program it to see if it works on the YP-80. That should make landings easier if it does.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/eagles/4fg.jpg

BuzzU
03-06-2004, 07:34 PM
So much for that idea. Air brake doesn't work on the YP-80 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/eagles/4fg.jpg

FI-Aflak
03-06-2004, 08:14 PM
Stukas have brakes, P-38 L has brakes . . . thats all I can think of now.

YP-80 is a pain to land, but if you just give yourself a real long time to glide down to alt and desire speed, its easy. It just require patience. Once you have the time you need, you can play with your engine to get the right power setting for approach, dropp flaps and land. Triangle gear makes it easy because you can just hold the brakes without having to worry about nosing over.

sobolan
03-06-2004, 08:28 PM
The speedo on the german jets is indicating IAS and TAS with those 2 needles.

YP-80 did not have an airbrake, but the following P-80s variants had.

The K-14 is a joy...but I leave also the fixed one on, just in case, for a lucky burst at short range.

http://www.forumag.as.ro/speed/bazu11.jpg

BlitzPig_DDT
03-06-2004, 09:20 PM
Ok, found out in more playing that as sobolan just mentioned, the white needle is IAS and the dark needle is TAS. Neat stuff.

Found a bug though, the Go-229's IAS needle stops at 350kph. Anyone else see this? Think this is what threw me before.

My theory on the G induced explosions is transisitons from neg to high positive G or too quick a G load build up. In turn fights in the QMB I had no explosions. But, I was being conscious of G loading and trying to stay "awake" too.

Cosmo has also shown me something I didn't want to know. That people here are still ****** for no good reason. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Nice that you provided info and all, but, the 'tude was entirely uncalled for. FYI - I was not referring to 0% cut out. Nor spool time. Actually, it spools faster than the Jumo or BMW, in this game. Go fig. Also, it's less heat sensitive and less prone to throttle induced ignition as well.

The "flame outs" happen while at 80-100% throttle. They happen when under positive or negative G load (never at 1 G though), but it's not a given number that I can find. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. But it's not exactly "rare".

Someone mentioned planes with brakes - the 229 has them also.

Anyone gotten a 229 to spin yet? I tried to but couldn't do it. IDK if it's a lack of control authority to push it that far, or if something is screwed with the FM, or if I'm just not hamfisting it hard enough. lol

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

03-06-2004, 09:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
So much for that idea. Air brake doesn't work on the YP-80 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was dissapointed to find no air brake on the YP-80A too, Buzz. I read some P-80 history books and found that the speed brakes were not part of the aircraft until the P-80A. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

There is hope for the future, though. Gibbage's work-in-progress 3D shots and Snorri's default skin both show functional speedbrakes! The texture even includes a spot for wingtop drop tanks.

Actually, the more I look at the void.bmp the more it looks like a P-80A or later. The nose panel in the void skin looks like the perspex window for the nose landing light--another feature missing in the YP-80 but present in the P-80A.

Maybe if Oleg is kind there is will P-80A's and B's in a future addon.

03-06-2004, 09:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The "flame outs" happen while at 80-100% throttle. They happen when under positive or negative G load (never at 1 G though), but it's not a given number that I can find. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. But it's not exactly "rare".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe the flameouts are related to angle of attack. Intake design was still in its infancy back in those days. Sure would be cool if Oleg modelled unstarts.

By the way, I'm sorry if "get ready for reality" offended you. I suppose my "tude" is aimed at people who expect these airplanes to fly like a nintendo. There are switches provided to make the planes easy to fly, and there is NO SHAME in using them. Once you flip everything to full real, well, get ready for reality. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Lewallen8579
03-06-2004, 09:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
The "flame outs" happen while at 80-100% throttle. They happen when under positive or negative G load (never at 1 G though), but it's not a given number that I can find. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. But it's not exactly "rare".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Someone in another thread said that his joystick was spiking on the throttle axis. That would be a random-seeming but possibly common issue. What happens if you unplug the joystick and play with the keyboard only?

~Sam

--
If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties.
-Francis Bacon

BaronVonSnoopy
03-06-2004, 10:26 PM
USN F-5s of VFC-13, Fallon NV, would frequently return from a sortie and the post flight report would indicate engine failure. After analyzing the flight data, it was determined that a reduction in throttle coupled with a moderate (read 4-6) G-load, usually occurring in attempt to maintain corner velocity, would starve the engine for air. It was mainly due to intake design and size, and although not a P80, basically the same principals could apply.

03-06-2004, 10:41 PM
Very interesting. Thanks, BaronVonSnoopy!

After flying the YP-80 a bit, though, I think most of the engine trouble is due to spiky throttles. I wrung out the YP-80 "Russian Airshow Style" going sideways and backwards, at high power and low, and the engine just keep ticking.

Rough treatment of the throttle, however, knocks out the engine real fast.

Here's a suggestion that might help with spiky throttles: edit your conf.ini and add a bit of filtering to your throttle axis. For example,

U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 2

BlitzPig_DDT
03-07-2004, 12:13 PM
Hmm. My throttle isn't spiking. I've checked. Sometimes in the QMB it'll start out powered down, and not others. Doesn't seem to fit a pattern.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>By the way, I'm sorry if "get ready for reality" offended you. I suppose my "tude" is aimed at people who expect these airplanes to fly like a nintendo. There are switches provided to make the planes easy to fly, and there is NO SHAME in using them. Once you flip everything to full real, well, get ready for reality.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps, but you don't appear to have read what was written, rather just made some broad assumptions.

As for "reality", heh heh, start a thread asking if this is realistic enough to teach you how to fly. Just for kicks. See the response you'll get. lol

But, you again stated "welcome to reality" when you said you didn't even know what was causing it. So, what are you basing that on? Blind faith in Oleg? You're not one of 'those' people, are you?



Topic change - Still no word on the IAS guage bug in the 229? Or on spinning that thing? Can't seem to do it. Would think it should be particularly suseptible to spins. Don't know that it should be. Could very well be correct in the game. Just curious about it.

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

sfbaytf
03-07-2004, 12:16 PM
If I recall correctly Richard Bong the top scoring US ace of WW2 was killed when his P-80 flamed out on take off.

03-07-2004, 12:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
But, you again stated "welcome to reality" when you said you didn't even know what was causing it. So, what are you basing that on? Blind faith in Oleg? You're not one of 'those' people, are you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I knew exactly what causes flameouts: Rough and sudden throttle inputs.

This can be due to (1) a spiky throttle potentiometer or (2) being hamfisted with the throttle.

As for reality, well, flying is not 100% safe. Even the most experienced pilots get killed sometimes. When are you ready to go flying for real? Whenever you're willing to take the risk, and whenever your government/flying club/grandma agrees to let you have a go.

BTW, those German TAS/IAS dual needle airspeed gauges are interesting. I hope they get all the bugs worked out.

BlitzPig_DDT
03-07-2004, 01:17 PM
No, you don't know, given that - My Cougar analyzer shows absolutely 0 spiking on my throttle. I have checked, as I said.

So, given that it's not spiking, and that it happens in combat when the throttle is not being moved, that eliminates 2 of your explanations.

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

TooCooL34
03-07-2004, 02:50 PM
Over base, turn YP-80 and bleed E before final approach. Gliding to landing speed is too cumbersome for me, so is modern jets and they do pattern landing when visibility isn't that bad.


=815=TooCooL34 in =815=Squad, South Korea

03-07-2004, 04:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>DDT said: So, given that it's _not_ spiking, and that it happens in combat when the throttle is not being moved, that eliminates 2 of your explanations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm... Are you taking hits, or firing the guns?

Combat damage could obviously cause engine trouble. Ingesting gas from the 6 .50's could upset the engine too.

I've flown the YP-80 upsidedown, backwards and sideways, at all power settings, and the engine refuses to flame out. Haven't tested it in combat, though.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>TooCooL34 said: Over base, turn YP-80 and bleed E before final approach. Gliding to landing speed is too cumbersome for me, so is modern jets and they do pattern landing when visibility isn't that bad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try an overhead approach. Fly right down the runway, 500 feet higher than regular pattern altitude. When you're over the numbers on the far end of the runway, break 180 downwind. Dirty up and descend to pattern altitude on your downwing leg, and turn base 3-5 km from the runway.

A whole flight of planes can get down together by flying an overhead approach. Lead breaks first, and each subsquent aircraft breaks a short while later later, automatically spacing them out. On big runways you can come down 2 at a time and #2 follows lead in trail instead of waiting.

BlitzPig_DDT
03-07-2004, 06:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cosmokart:
Hmm... Are you taking hits, or firing the guns?

Combat damage could obviously cause engine trouble.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but no, happens when there is no damage at all.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Ingesting gas from the 6 .50's could upset the engine too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting idea. Have to see if it seems timed to the guns. I'd be surprised if Oleg added that, but, guess it's possible.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I've flown the YP-80 upsidedown, backwards and sideways, at all power settings, and the engine refuses to flame out. Haven't tested it in combat, though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try some QMB. As I said, sometimes it stars out shut down for some reason. Had it happen with the throttle was at 0% and 100% prior to starting the mission.

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

03-07-2004, 07:17 PM
I believe you DDT http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gonna have to fly that YP-80 a bit more and no doubt it'll happen to me.

Also, I vaguely recall reading something about how there's a 5% chance of getting a hangar queen each time you start out in a new aircraft.

BlitzPig_DDT
03-07-2004, 08:21 PM
Wow. They tried that once before didn't they? Thought the *****ing was too much so it was patched out. lol

I did see in the object viewer that the disadvantage was "unreliable engine". lol Could be totally random after all. lol

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com