PDA

View Full Version : I-185 M-71 or the russians strike back...



Tipo_Man
06-03-2004, 02:20 AM
This post is about overmodelled performance and historical inaccuracy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I hope most of you already you know that I-185 was never accepted into service and never flew a combat mission. The reasons for this are quite

contradictory . Most of the russians nowadays consider this was due to "stupid Stalin" who on his own decided to stop this perfect plane from production,

or due to lobbying from Polikarpov's enemies and so on....after viewing Oleg's description in 2.01 readme I felt like he was saying: " You see , we've managed

to build a superb fighter which outperformed everything else but due to Stalin it was never accepted into servece".
Was this really the case? Was really I-185 ready for serial production?

M-71 was never put into serial production even years later. Other planes intended for this engine never made it (there were quite a few).
I can provide a lot of sources about I-185 development and problems persueing it. When I read them I came to the conclusion that cancelling I-185 was the

most logical solution.But this is my opinion.

Now lets suppose Stalin have decided to build I-185 M-71 .
I have several sources about its performance during development. for example :

...tried to post some sources in russian but obviosly forum does not allow..
or

I-185 M-71
see level top speed(without WEP): 521 km/h
max speed at 500m with WEP: 556km/h
..

the final tests conducted in Oct1942 and Jan 1943 showed

Jan1943 oct1942
See level max speed 560/600 537/577
...
...
turn time 22-23 21-22

Now here is my question. What made you include I-185 M-71 as a 1942 plane !?

Even its military trial were conducted in 1943! And even Polikarpov asked for starting serial production in 1943!
Now if we suppose that serial producton was started it would have appeared no earlier than summer-autuomn 1943.
Of course if the M-71 by some kind of miracle had gotten finished and ready for production....

And what make you think that serial planes would have performed like the prototype?
For example the protype of LaGG-3 on military trials in 1940 showed mas speed of 600km/h while serial planes even two years later had max speed of 554km/h.

So I'm really like the plane but now it radically contradicts to your attempt of historical accuracy.

Tipo_Man
06-03-2004, 02:20 AM
This post is about overmodelled performance and historical inaccuracy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I hope most of you already you know that I-185 was never accepted into service and never flew a combat mission. The reasons for this are quite

contradictory . Most of the russians nowadays consider this was due to "stupid Stalin" who on his own decided to stop this perfect plane from production,

or due to lobbying from Polikarpov's enemies and so on....after viewing Oleg's description in 2.01 readme I felt like he was saying: " You see , we've managed

to build a superb fighter which outperformed everything else but due to Stalin it was never accepted into servece".
Was this really the case? Was really I-185 ready for serial production?

M-71 was never put into serial production even years later. Other planes intended for this engine never made it (there were quite a few).
I can provide a lot of sources about I-185 development and problems persueing it. When I read them I came to the conclusion that cancelling I-185 was the

most logical solution.But this is my opinion.

Now lets suppose Stalin have decided to build I-185 M-71 .
I have several sources about its performance during development. for example :

...tried to post some sources in russian but obviosly forum does not allow..
or

I-185 M-71
see level top speed(without WEP): 521 km/h
max speed at 500m with WEP: 556km/h
..

the final tests conducted in Oct1942 and Jan 1943 showed

Jan1943 oct1942
See level max speed 560/600 537/577
...
...
turn time 22-23 21-22

Now here is my question. What made you include I-185 M-71 as a 1942 plane !?

Even its military trial were conducted in 1943! And even Polikarpov asked for starting serial production in 1943!
Now if we suppose that serial producton was started it would have appeared no earlier than summer-autuomn 1943.
Of course if the M-71 by some kind of miracle had gotten finished and ready for production....

And what make you think that serial planes would have performed like the prototype?
For example the protype of LaGG-3 on military trials in 1940 showed mas speed of 600km/h while serial planes even two years later had max speed of 554km/h.

So I'm really like the plane but now it radically contradicts to your attempt of historical accuracy.

LEXX_Luthor
06-03-2004, 02:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I can provide a lot of sources about I-185<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Okay



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Tipo_Man
06-03-2004, 04:40 AM
Well I tried but the forum does not allow to post in Russian(or I am doing something wrong)
here is a link to Rodionov's Chronologi
http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/faculty/harrison/aviaprom/ver4/

and the parts where I-185 is mentioned
http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/faculty/harrison/aviaprom/ver4/19422.doc

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/faculty/harrison/aviaprom/ver4/19431.doc
So just open doc files and search for I-185

LEXX_Luthor
06-03-2004, 05:37 AM
mmm, very interesting thanks!!

Cobbled this together with Babelfist translator, and I am off to work now...

19431.doc

On 27 January 1943 in P.M.Stefanovskogo on I -185 M-71 returned motor in flight to the determination of maximum speed. During the planning lost the speed and by chassis it were struck against the earth and broke aircraft, but pilot - was unharmed (751,2). From 27 January 1943 in LEAH began the State of testing DIS (MiG-5) M-82 and 28 there was the first departure. Savkin flew 15 minutes. They then made 14 flights (990,8). On 27 January 1943 to Yer-2 2M-E0B at plants 134 and 500 after the repair of screw they carried out check flight with the duration of 15 min. They explained that left screw also not in the order. 28-29 January they changed screw and made brakes (1458,30). On 27 January 1943 was signed the report OF NII - SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE VVS for I -185 M-71 the standard: &.tsuot;Osnovnye LTKH, obtained with the plant tests I -185, were confirmed. To N -3200 m the speeds are considerably increased due to the best trimming of chassis with the shields and the partial internal hermetic sealing of samoleta&.tsuot;. &.tsuot;... 3. I -185 M-71 possesses the large scale of velocities, rate of climb and vertical maneuver, what is the positive quality of contemporary destroyer. In the technology of aircraft handling is pleasant and accessible about average qualification. Fuel capacity according to calculation data ensures distance on 0.9 max. of speed - 800 km.&.tsuot; (2863,99). ...6. aircraft I -185 M-71, which possesses high LD, powerful armament and having the prospects for further development, is perhaps rekomendovan to the armament VVS Of kA.&.tsuot; (2863,99). Comparative table LTD of the domestic and of German destroyer Me-2:

table
---------------------------------------------
I-185M-71...Yak-7...La~5[?]...Me-109G-2 * La~5 translated as "caress" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NII - SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE VVS Is plant. M-105PF M-82

during January during October January is January January http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

1943 1942 1943 1943 1943

Max. Speed in earth 560/600 537/577 537 518/556 505

Max. on 1 deg. Heights 648/3200 637/3380 564/1800 582/3600 583/2750

Max. on 2 deg. Heights 680/6100 667/6100 591/3650 600/6300 650/7000

Time of turn 22-23 21-22 - 18.5 22.6

Climb for turn by 1500 - - 1000 1000 (2863,97)
---------------------------------------------


Conclusion according to the flying estimation I -185 M-71 of the p.M.Stefanovskogo: &.tsuot;Nesmotrya for the large load on square meter of wing, aircraft because of the successful combination of forms, overall sizes, excellent high-lift device of wing and the successful layout of entire aircraft, possesses very high speeds and rate of climb, grow prettier by maneuverability and by comparative simplicity in the technology of piloting. Powerful cannon fire makes it possible to bring down the aircraft of enemy from one, two attacks. Setting the forced motor and lightening construction will make it possible to even more improve LD and simplicity of the technology of piloting. All this makes it necessary to consider that this aircraft is promising and it will have advantages over the aircraft of protivnika.&.tsuot existing at the given moment; (2863,98). Conclusion on the circling I -185 M-71 of fedrovi: ... the stability of aircraft is completely sufficient. Aircraft goes with deserted control at the speed of 250-300 km/h stably. ... circling leaves favorable impression and makes it possible to carry its flight characteristics to the appreciation. In comparison with other aircraft with the star-shaped motors flight- maneuverability properties and obtained speeds occupy the first place. The technology of piloting in the comparison s caress and MiG-82 on this aircraft it is simpler, and its mastery in the line units will be more easily. Military characteristics with 3 guns with 500 projectiles are higher than mentioned, and fatigue l in flight is less (2863,99). Conclusion on the circling I -185 M-71 of p.N.Loginova: &.tsuot;... model aircraft I -185 M-71 on its LD and armament is the best contemporary destroyer... of &.tsuot; (2863,99).
:
:
:
On 4 February 1943 N.N.P. wrote I.V.S. with the claim for a series I -185 M-71 (228,172). N.N.P. wrote about 685 km/h, although in reality - 700 (389,86). The same on the distance 800 km, although in reality - 900 km (2495):
By road I.V.
Three years of the stressed work of our design association made it possible to create destroyer I -185 M-71. now it it passed the already three State of testing in NII - SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE VVS, showed speed in the earth 600 km/h and to 6150 - 680 km/h and has also reserves for further increase in the flight-performance data. I -185 M-71 awaits your solution about the starting into the series production... of &.tsuot; (2495,27). We will be happy soak to our Soviet native land and to you, to our leader and supreme commander-in-chief, during these great historical days by its modest of trudom.&.tsuot; (2863,104).

VW-IceFire
06-03-2004, 06:09 AM
So the top speed seems to be about right, the turn time seems to be about right, and the only thing thats in potential question is its deployment date?

The P-51B is also listed as a 1942 plane and yet I believe for all intensive purposes it wasn't used in combat, in that configuration, until 1943 and more realistically in 1944 when the 8th Air Force took the numbers on in strength. So for any smart designer of historical missions or maps...the date listed by the game is of little relevance.

Furthermore, from what I've seen mentioned online at a number of sites...the I-185 was deployed to a frontline combat unit, much like the MIG-3U was, in limited numbers and flew combat missions. Even more to the point, we've got the Ta-152H in game which flew very few combat missions (I think total kill tally includes a Tempest V and a Yak-90, the Me 163 (which flew in limited combat and was shot down by a Tempest on at least one occasion), the Gotha Go-229 (which flew no combat missions although was being prepped for combat when they were captured), and the He-162 who's combat history I can't remember but it was very limited as well (once again, I believe at least one was shot down).

So this sim also has the fantastic ability to delve into the more obscure realms of history and dig a few operational types (or what-ifs) for the sake of interest. By far...the I-185 isn't even overmodeled in the game. Its quite easy to get on ones tail and wipe it out...its an easy target for a FW190 pilot.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Tipo_Man
06-03-2004, 07:02 AM
Well generally I do agree that I-185 M-71 from 1943 is modelled correctly(if we assume that all the planes are modelled according to the performance of their prototype, which contradicts to Oleg words that he has modelled soviet planes to their serial production specs). I wanted to point out that if I-185 M-71 is included as a 1942 plane it should be modelled at least according performance the prototype could achieve in 1942...and what LEXX_Luthor translated is only the trial results from 1943 tests...
Earlier tests in spring-summer 1942 showed max speed of 530-550 km/hm, lower climb,... etc.
Another point is that I-185 M-71 if included as a 1942 plane changes the VVS "appearance" in 1942 quite a bit. Actually there was no soviet plane able to compete Bf-109F4, BF-109G2 and Fw-190A4 in 1942. The majority of the planes in VVS invenory were Yak-1 (not Yak-1B), Yak-7 and LaGG-3 (first series). Yak-1B appeared in autumn 1942 and was by no mean a cure for the bad situation. La-5 appeared in december only in limited numbers and only under Stalingrad.

So if we aim at historical accuracy...

ZG77_Nagual
06-03-2004, 08:42 AM
I think modeling some of the more obscure planes is part of what this simm is about. I was pleased as punch to finally see an I-16 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bogun
06-03-2004, 09:10 AM
I-185 is universally excluded from all the 1942 dogfight servers I have been flying on and definitely not going to be present in any of the on-line wars.

So, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?

BTW, I-185 did take part in airwar, it did fly combat missions, it definitely has more rights to be in the game then Bi-1, Bf.109Z or Go-229.

Regards,

Forgotten War Home Page (http://www.forgottenskies.com/ForgottenWars/default.aspx)
http://bogun.freeservers.com/609_bogun.jpg (http://www.takeoff.to/609IAP)

"The best fighters I met in combat were the American P-51 Mustang and Russian Yak-9U. Both of those types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the 'K'. The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and maneuverability."

- Walter Wolfrum (137 victories)

Chuck_Older
06-03-2004, 10:28 AM
Maybe the I-85 M-71 was introduced to be an opponent for the Bf109Z? Just a thought http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

crazyivan1970
06-03-2004, 10:33 AM
what is the big deal about I-185? There is always G2 for its behind http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Luftcaca
06-03-2004, 10:40 AM
heh guys talking about the I-185 it brings me to ask you this question:

I-185 M-82 1941


Engine: 1 x M-82
Power:
Take-off: 1,600 HP
Indicated: 1,390 HP


I-185 M-71

Engine: 1 x M-71
Power:
Take-off: 2,000 HP
Indicated: 1,625 HP

and on the La5 the M-82 is rated at 1700hp...?

and also, if the M-71 is a more powerful version of the M-82, how come its serial number is lower? is it because the M-71 was designed B4 the M-82? Shed some light someone!!! :P

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

jeroen_R90S
06-03-2004, 11:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Luftcaca:
...and also, if the M-71 is a more powerful version of the M-82, how come its serial number is lower? is it because the M-71 was designed B4 the M-82? Shed some light someone!!! :P<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I still wonder why Yak-3 is newer than Yak-7 and 9 as well... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Jeroen

Bogun
06-03-2004, 11:49 AM
Shvetsovâ's M-71 engine was farther development of M-63 (itself improved M-25 - licensed version of Wright R-1820 Cyclone). M-63 was pretty much two M-63 stack together.
M-71 engine never got past testing into serial production and this was a cause of prolonged delays and eventually cancellation of I-185 project.
When troubles with the development of this engine become apparent – Polikarpov decided to develop version of I-185 for then available M-82A engine (M-82A was also farther development of M-63, but much lighter and less powerful then M-71, with smaller mid-section). This allowed to streamline nose section of I-185, and save a lot of weight, but was still not enough to compensate for lost horsepower compare to M-71. By this time – Spring of 1943 Lavotchkin was working on installing new ASh-82FN engine on La-5 – end performance difference between I-185 (even with M-71 engine) and La-5FN wasnâ't enough to justify considerable hardship of rolling another plane in serial production.
Big part of the whole I-185 controversy were intrigues by A.S.Yakovlev (deputy minister of aircraft industry) who saw this plane as a threat to his upcoming Yak-9U (with then yet to be reliable VK-107A engine).

Regards,

Forgotten War Home Page (http://www.forgottenskies.com/ForgottenWars/default.aspx)
http://bogun.freeservers.com/609_bogun.jpg (http://www.takeoff.to/609IAP)

"The best fighters I met in combat were the American P-51 Mustang and Russian Yak-9U. Both of those types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the 'K'. The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and maneuverability."

- Walter Wolfrum (137 victories)

Bogun
06-03-2004, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeroen_R90S:
Yeah, I still wonder why Yak-3 is newer than Yak-7 and 9 as well... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Jeroen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Numbering scheme is actually make sense and easy to understand once you see the Yak planes family tree.
You are talking about two planes families being developed in parallel:
(simplified version with many intermediate planes missing)

I-26 -&gt; Yak-1 -&gt; Yak-1B -&gt; Yak-1M -&gt; Yak-3 -&gt; Yak-3(VK-107A)

I-26 -&gt; UTI-26-2 (two seat trainer) -&gt; Yak-7 -&gt; Yak-7B -&gt; Yak-7DA -&gt; Yak-9 -&gt; Yak-9U(VK-107A)

There were also Yak-3 and Yak-5 names used by the designe bureau for the plane with never seen the production and then name Yak-3 was "reused" in 1943 for the plane we all know and love in IL-2FB! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Regards,

Forgotten War Home Page (http://www.forgottenskies.com/ForgottenWars/default.aspx)
http://bogun.freeservers.com/609_bogun.jpg (http://www.takeoff.to/609IAP)

"The best fighters I met in combat were the American P-51 Mustang and Russian Yak-9U. Both of those types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the 'K'. The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and maneuverability."

- Walter Wolfrum (137 victories)

Luftcaca
06-03-2004, 02:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bogun:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeroen_R90S:
Yeah, I still wonder why Yak-3 is newer than Yak-7 and 9 as well... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Jeroen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Numbering scheme is actually make sense and easy to understand once you see the Yak planes family tree.
You are talking about two planes families being developed in parallel:
(simplified version with many intermediate planes missing)

I-26 -&gt; Yak-1 -&gt; Yak-1B -&gt; Yak-1M -&gt; Yak-3 -&gt; Yak-3(VK-107A)

I-26 -&gt; UTI-26-2 (two seat trainer) -&gt; Yak-7 -&gt; Yak-7B -&gt; Yak-7DA -&gt; Yak-9 -&gt; Yak-9U(VK-107A)

There were also Yak-3 and Yak-5 names used by the designe bureau for the plane with never seen the production and then name Yak-3 was "reused" in 1943 for the plane we all know and love in IL-2FB! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Regards,

http://www.forgottenskies.com/ForgottenWars/default.aspx
http://www.takeoff.to/609IAP

"The best fighters I met in combat were the American P-51 Mustang and Russian Yak-9U. Both of those types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the 'K'. The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and maneuverability."

- Walter Wolfrum (137 victories)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


thx, you really saved my butt on this one! :P

so the M-71 was a better and more recent engine than the M-82? thats all I wanted to know

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

Bogun
06-03-2004, 03:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
thx, you really saved my butt on this one! :P

so the M-71 was a better and more recent engine than the M-82? thats all I wanted to know<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, no, it was not better.

It could have become â"betterâ"ť would it been allowed to go through normal development cycle – at the end it was just two proven and reliable M-63 stuck together. But it would still be heavier and still have bigger mid-section (donâ't know how to say it correctly in English).
One of its later versions - M-71F was suppose to develop:
Take-off power - 2200hp @ 0m
Nominal power - 1800hp @ 3600m
But, there was a war and there was no time to spend on may be promising, but unproven engines.


On the other hand M-82 been brought into production in the in 1941, it was reliable, it was light, it was small and most important – it was available.
Here is some data:

M-82A (1941-42)
Weight - 870kg
Take-off power - 1676hp @ 0m (@2500rpm, @1140mm.Hg.) forsage 10 min limit.
Nominal power - 1540hp @ 2050m (@2400rpm, @950mm.Hg.)
Nominal power - 1330hp @ 5400m (@2400rpm, @950mm.Hg.)

M-82F (1943-44)
Weight - 870kg
Take-off power - 1700hp @ 0m (@2500rpm, @1140mm.Hg.) nominal to 1600m.
Nominal power - 1676hp @ 1650m (@2400rpm, @950mm.Hg.)
Nominal power - 1540hp @ 2050m (@2400rpm, @950mm.Hg.)
Nominal power - 1450hp @ 4650m (@2400rpm, @950mm.Hg.)
Nominal power - 1330hp @ 5400m (@2400rpm, @950mm.Hg.)

ASh-82FN (1943-45)
Weight - 900kg
Take-off power - 1850hp @ 0m (@2500rpm, @1180mm.Hg.) forsage up to 2000m.
(TsAGI book states - 1200 mm.Hg., Pilot manual - up to 5 min)
Nominal power - 1630hp @ 1650m (@2400rpm, @1000mm.Hg.)
Nominal power - 1430hp @ 4650m (@2400rpm, @1000mm.Hg.)

ASh-83 (1945)
Weight - 915kg
Take-off power - 1900hp @ 0m, (@2500rpm, @1260mm.Hg.)
Nominal power - 1700hp @ 2000m, 1st stage boost (@2450rpm, @1040mm.Hg.)
Nominal power - 1500hp @ 5750m, 2nd stage boost (@2450rpm, @1040mm.Hg.)

Regards,

Forgotten War Home Page (http://www.forgottenskies.com/ForgottenWars/default.aspx)
http://bogun.freeservers.com/609_bogun.jpg (http://www.takeoff.to/609IAP)

"The best fighters I met in combat were the American P-51 Mustang and Russian Yak-9U. Both of those types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the 'K'. The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and maneuverability."

- Walter Wolfrum (137 victories)

BfHeFwMe
06-03-2004, 03:29 PM
The translated term 'destroyer', makes me wonder whether they were talking interceptor over fighter. Were they really looking at it as a bomber destroyer? That and the way they loaded it up with the heavy firepower.

Luftcaca
06-03-2004, 03:32 PM
thx for the info mate http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

LEXX_Luthor
06-03-2004, 05:43 PM
STOP...I think I am figuring this out...

readme file...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The I-185 prototype equipped with the M-71 engine which first flew on June 10, 1942 was designated a "production standard," i.e. a prototype which was to be used as a standard for future production. Compared to other prototypes of the series many defects were resolved and the overall aerodynamics improved. The I-185 M-71 production standard was built from the blueprints intended for serial production.

The I-185 M-71 production standard, in addition to the I-185 M-71 #6204 and two I-185 M-82 went through front line combat testing between December of 1942 and January of 1943. Speed and climb rate of this prototype were vastly superior to all contemporary Soviet fighters. However due to political reason and lobbying from Polikarpov's enemies the project never entered production and was cancelled. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We have the "production standard" M71 version.

I have yet to pursue the Russian 1942 document (if Tipo~Man would like to help http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) We may have the later 1942 version... <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I~185E (Etalon, standard) incorporated completely redesigned fuselage of reduced cross-section giving better appearance and reducing drag (similar to La~9 and La~11), though still wood. Improved engine installation, cowl sealed with diameter 1314mm and length 1545[mm], better profile and reduced pressure-loss in colling engine. CG at 23.6% (limits 21.1/25.8) with armanment three ShVAK with 560 rounds, plus 500kg various bombs or eight RS~82. First flight April 1942 and completed NII testing October. In VVS opinion, best fighter in world (probably fastest) and in late 1942 gained excellent reputation when subjected to further testing with 728IAP on Kalinin front. Sadly, this aircraf crashed, killing V.A. Stepancyenok, as a result of sudden engine failure http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif at low altitude 5 April 1943. Polikarpov kept drawing improved versions, but this once-famed fighter designer built no new fighter during the Second World War, thwarted by unreliability or unavailability of engines and existence of La~5 meeting need.

~Bill Gunsten .. Aircraft of Soviet Union<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Gunsten says an earlier M71 version first flight not recorded, but NII tested 10 February to 28 March.

sorry for the mistakes...CG not CD in the quote


[This message was edited by LEXX_Luthor on Thu June 03 2004 at 05:00 PM.]

[This message was edited by LEXX_Luthor on Thu June 03 2004 at 05:01 PM.]

p1ngu666
06-04-2004, 02:16 PM
if there isnt many then u cant have production one in fb cos there wasnt one irl.
but as above posts state, it does have production or roughly that performance http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

ElAurens
06-05-2004, 11:04 AM
Thanks for the info Bogun.

S!

_____________________________

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/Curtiss_logo.gif

BlitzPig_EL

jeroen_R90S
06-06-2004, 01:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bogun:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jeroen_R90S:
Yeah, I still wonder why Yak-3 is newer than Yak-7 and 9 as well... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Jeroen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Numbering scheme is actually make sense and easy to understand once you see the Yak planes family tree.
You are talking about two planes families being developed in parallel:
(simplified version with many intermediate planes missing)

I-26 -&gt; Yak-1 -&gt; Yak-1B -&gt; Yak-1M -&gt; Yak-3 -&gt; Yak-3(VK-107A)

I-26 -&gt; UTI-26-2 (two seat trainer) -&gt; Yak-7 -&gt; Yak-7B -&gt; Yak-7DA -&gt; Yak-9 -&gt; Yak-9U(VK-107A)

There were also Yak-3 and Yak-5 names used by the designe bureau for the plane with never seen the production and then name Yak-3 was "reused" in 1943 for the plane we all know and love in IL-2FB! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the explanation Bogun!

I don't fly Yaks very often, except for Yak-1 and 1B...
Like the LaGG better http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jeroen

Luftcaca
06-06-2004, 02:04 PM
if only the new Yaks were available for single player campaigns...as the other new planes as well... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

jeroen_R90S
06-06-2004, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Luftcaca:
if only the new Yaks were available for single player campaigns...as the other new planes as well... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, missing the new LaGGs with 23mm Yva nose cannon option as well... Adding manually or using DCG is an option, though.

(DGG actually allows differt skins in a squad as well, very cool to be able to ID pilots by a skin)

Jeroen