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View Full Version : Possible explination for the P-63 DM



Gibbage1
07-16-2004, 07:40 PM
Please stick with me on this one.

We all know that the damage for the MG-151/20 is PORKED!

We all know most complaints about the P-63 are comming from people who fly 109's or 190's using 20MM.

Put 1 and 1 togeather.

Please. Im at work now, but PLEASE test OTHER CANONS! I know for a FACT that I have had my wings removed from 2 hits by a Spit. Also Yak's have no problems clipping my wings.

So before you come here spouting off "THE DM IS PORKED!" please do some testing. Maybe its not the P-63DM, but the MG151/20 your using on the P-63.

Gib

P.S. IM NOT SAYING THIS IS THE CASE! Im saying its a POSSIBLE EXPLINATION! More test's must be done. But to accuse something without doing test's is rather stupid and ignorant.

Gibbage1
07-16-2004, 07:40 PM
Please stick with me on this one.

We all know that the damage for the MG-151/20 is PORKED!

We all know most complaints about the P-63 are comming from people who fly 109's or 190's using 20MM.

Put 1 and 1 togeather.

Please. Im at work now, but PLEASE test OTHER CANONS! I know for a FACT that I have had my wings removed from 2 hits by a Spit. Also Yak's have no problems clipping my wings.

So before you come here spouting off "THE DM IS PORKED!" please do some testing. Maybe its not the P-63DM, but the MG151/20 your using on the P-63.

Gib

P.S. IM NOT SAYING THIS IS THE CASE! Im saying its a POSSIBLE EXPLINATION! More test's must be done. But to accuse something without doing test's is rather stupid and ignorant.

Hunde_3.JG51
07-16-2004, 08:50 PM
For what it is worth I just did numerous QMB missions 1 vs. 1 against P-63. The first two times I took up Spitfire I managed to take wing off of P-63 with short burst. The next 40+ times I tried with La-7, Ki-84, and Spitfire again and could not take wing off or cause fueselage failure. I did manage to shoot out the wheel a bunch of times though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif. The Hispano is much more powerful than the other 20mm though so I revise my statement. I say the P-63's wing cannot be taken off (except in extremely rare instances) or fueselage failure induced with any gun 20mm and below (except for Hispano).

I can take off wings of other planes just fine so I still say DM is seriously bugged. On some occasions I clearly hit with only a round or two on wing and engine started smoking. This is much more the rule rather than the exception. Also, as was shown earlier I could swear that some rounds were going through wings without hitting but I'll have to test that more.

I still say the engine is too fragile/vulnerable, and the wings/fueselage way too tough. People can test all they want but IMO this bug is/was clearly evident from the beginning. I mentioned this shortly after AEP release and I stand by it.

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[This message was edited by Hunde_3.JG51 on Fri July 16 2004 at 08:33 PM.]

bun-bun195333
07-16-2004, 09:07 PM
http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/P63.jpg

Here's the snap. I was running a Coop so it counts as online. Shot it down with a Spit IX.

I ran the test about twenty times and this is the only time I winged him - lots of heavy smoke and flame. The 190 D9 worked well also.

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[This message was edited by bun-bun195333 on Fri July 16 2004 at 08:15 PM.]

faustnik
07-16-2004, 09:16 PM
I see plenty of Ki-84s taking P-63s down online.

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MPortus_
07-16-2004, 09:21 PM
explanation

p1ngu666
07-16-2004, 09:23 PM
it takes mk108 well too btw

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bun-bun195333
07-16-2004, 09:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
it takes mk108 well too btw

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The 108 works well on anything. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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Hunde_3.JG51
07-16-2004, 09:38 PM
Faustnik, taking them down by removing their wings or busting fueselage with 20mm, or 30mm? As I said it is possible with cannons above 20mm and with Hispano, but I have never seen anything else take the wing off of a P-63. It may be possible in extremely rare circumstances but this does not mean DM is not bugged. Wings come off of P-51, FW-190, Bf-109, Yak, La, Spitifre, etc, just fine with machine guns or cannons, but it very rarely happens to P-63 and I don't think there is any rational explanation other than the DM being off.

To be honest I can't believe that this bug is not obvious to anyone who has played the game for any length of time.

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steiner562
07-16-2004, 09:48 PM
Try it with the default 109g6as,(2X13MM AND 1x20mm (151/20) this can usally take a wing of any plane but not the p-63,only way I have seen is the engine..
REGARDS
stein

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faustnik
07-16-2004, 09:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
Faustnik, taking them down by removing their wings or busting fueselage with 20mm, or 30mm? As I said it is possible with cannons above 20mm and with Hispano, but I have never seen anything else take the wing off of a P-63. It may be possible in extremely rare circumstances but this does not mean DM is not bugged. Wings come off of P-51, FW-190, Bf-109, Yak, La, Spitifre, etc, just fine with machine guns or cannons, but it very rarely happens to P-63 and I don't think there is any rational explanation other than the DM being off.

To be honest I can't believe that this bug is not obvious to anyone who has played the game for any length of time.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, I'll test it.

Almost all the servers that I have been on with P-63s were PTO.

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Hunde_3.JG51
07-16-2004, 09:56 PM
Btw, just made a track (it took all of three tries) where numerous 13mm and 20mm rounds pass right through wing with no effect at all. I hit wingtip (and I mean the very tip) and engine bursts into thick black smoke. If someone wants this track I can send it to them, I'll be sending it to Oleg anyway. Like I said, the P-63 DM is way off and I have known this for a long time though I admit I never even thought it possible that rounds were going right through wings without making contact/hitting. I find that so many people are trying to deny/defend/whatever this to be disturbing.

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faustnik
07-16-2004, 10:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
Btw, just made a track where numerous 13mm and 20mm rounds pass right through wing with no effect at all. I hit wingtip (and I mean the very tip) and engine bursts into thick black smoke. If someone wants this track I can send it to them <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I'll take a look at it Kyrule. I'll PM my email to you.

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faustnik
07-16-2004, 10:50 PM
Looked at Hunde's track and soething is definately wrong. Rounds go through the center part of the wing as if it did not exist.

The bulkhead armor in the rear fusalage is not modeled also. MG rounds go right through to the engine.

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Gibbage1
07-16-2004, 10:59 PM
OK. NOW we are getting somewere!!!! Very interesting. Faust. PM me the track. I will also try the same thing in 2.02. See if its known and was fixed there. Who knows hay?

I want to say thank you everyone for calming down and actually running some test's. It works a lot better then "last night online" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If there is a problem, I will take it up with Oleg. Lets hope its already fixed.

Gib

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Looked at Hunde's track and soething is definately wrong. Rounds go through the center part of the wing as if it did not exist.

The bulkhead armor in the rear fusalage is not modeled also. MG rounds go right through to the engine.

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Gibbage1
07-16-2004, 11:01 PM
As for the tail falling off. Dont expect it to ever happen. The engine is back there. I only modeled it as the tail comming off because I did not have time to model an engine back there and all that junk. I think Oleg made the back portion of the P-63 all 1 peace because of the egnine mount and all that junk. Not like the 109 or Spitfire were its all hallow back there.

Gib

faustnik
07-16-2004, 11:07 PM
Check PM Gibbage. I don't have a diagram of the P-63 handy but, I'm pretty sure it has an oil cooler armored bulkhead like this P-39. I'll try to find out for sure.


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patch_adams
07-16-2004, 11:13 PM
The p63 had a ton of armor, I believe its correctly modeled.

Hunde_3.JG51
07-16-2004, 11:15 PM
Gibbage, please let me know what you think of track.

Faustnik, almost all of my shots were at wing, only at the very end did I shoot anywhere near fuesalage. I'm not sure what you mean by bulkhead thing (sorry for my ignorance), but I think very few rounds were directed towards fuesalage. You may be absolutely right, I just don't know what you mean exactly. I will watch again and look for it.

Also, please note the angle that the round that starts the engine's thick black smoke is at. It is nowhere near the engine, and would take a 90 degree or more change in direction to hit engine. And I don't think shrapnel from 20mm round would come anywhere near engine either so that is a very bad bug that looks ridiculous when you see it (in track).

And thanks for the input patch, as usual it means absolutely nothing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Lots of armor is different from phantom armor/wing.

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Gibbage1
07-16-2004, 11:22 PM
OK. I admit it. There is something VERY wrong in the P-63 DM. This MUST be new in 2.01 because I never noticed it. I have not flown the P-63 much in 2.01, just the P-38.

I went up with some friendly P-63's in a P-38 and Spit and shells just flew through the wings. They seem to get 1 hit, and then just pass though. And yes, I knocked the landing gear off from above the aircraft. So it passed through the wing and into the gear!

This was in 2.02. So the issue was not addressed in that. I dont know about 2.04. Nobody knows. Only Ubi has that. I will ask Oleg but dont expect a reply till Monday. I hope its known and fixed.

Thanks guys for all the test's. This is how we need to get to the issues. Not accusations. Im a beta tester and I try not to shoot from the hip on bugs. Always get a 2nd openion.

Gib

LeadSpitter_
07-16-2004, 11:24 PM
p63 is definatly way to strong, a number of time in the 190a9 with 108 cannons, using wep1 wep2 buttons the p63 can take more then 8 single shot hits with duel 108 cannon and get nothing but a fuel leak, I realize the wings are weak and will fall of from 2-3 108 shots but the fuselage seems to take ridiculouse ammount of damage, the p39 is still way to strong in my opinion but weaker then the p63.

Every book I read about the p63 and p39 any hits usually damage the engine. While the centerline engine balance the gravity increasing the turn radius it was very prone to shots and damage which happened frequently, even two smaller then .50 cal mgs on the ki43 got many kills on p39s from damaging the engine.

the japanese copy of the m2 .50 cal in the ki43 was a smaller round with a slightly faster rate of fire.

Also in black star red cross, a number of german pilots said they would shoot aircraft down with the mg131 same with

thejapanese zero pilots they would save thier cannon for medium bombers and p38s in hell in the pacific, it really makes you think how wrong the british .303 is 8 of them hitting on convergence can shoot emils for almost 8 seconds+

the p47 was one of the toughest aircraft of the war same with the 190 and seeing 18+ hrs of gun camera footage from all fronts makes you realize who wrong ammo effectiveness is both small cal and large

seeing that much guncamera footage you see p47s getting shotdown by 20mm 6-8 shots, 190s burst into flames from one burst of .50 cal seeing 10-12 flashes on wings and fuelage.

and those are the heavy weights, all the footage of las and yaks the burst into flames like zeros from 1-2 flashes

small mgs should be much stronger then they are currently in fb, and more accurate then cannon. Allcannon should be able to kill in under 3 hits but have alot more recoil effect then small mgs. Cannon should also slow an aircraft down alot especially on level flight and on a climb.

I mean even 6 .50s slowed the aircraft down significantly on the p40 in reality.

Call it whines what ever you like, but many of us would like a more realistic sim. Everyone has a different opinion, but people like me enjoy all wwii aircraft and try to learn as much as I can about them. Also all books and charts show different tests why becuase like cars today each aircraft performed differently, some lemons in the production line and some out performing the norm.

I think the best learning experience is watching gun camera footage about weapons effectiveness and manueverabilty. Guncam sped up to real time.

You really get a look at many clips and occasions of manuevers and gun strenght, i would never make assumptions off of one clip only but seeing 100+ clips of the same aircraft, different occasions of each you know thats how it was.

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[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Fri July 16 2004 at 10:33 PM.]

Hunde_3.JG51
07-16-2004, 11:32 PM
Thanks Gibbage and Faustnik, good to hear. Glad I could help. Me and Oleg have exchanged some very pleasant e-mails of late so I hope he will look at my track. I feel better knowing that guys with direct links to Oleg are on the case as well. I can't wait to have a more accurate P-63, that plane is a beast and I hate to see all of your hard work marred by a bug.

I still find it hard to believe/disturbing that so many people tried to deny/defend this. This bug hurts the P-63 as much as it helps it. All I can say is, I told you so...

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XyZspineZyX
07-16-2004, 11:34 PM
Gibbage wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We all know that the damage for the MG-151/20 is PORKED!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An admission from inside the inner circle.

There IS a God. (thank you, thank you, thank you)

Looking forward to them actually being weapons in the new patch.

faustnik
07-16-2004, 11:40 PM
I've made further tests on the P-63 ear fusalge armor and engine DM. The oil cooler armor bulkhead is modeled. It resists light MG rounds very well (tested with Mg17). HMG rounds (tested with Mg131) penetrate it very easily and start an engine fire.

The reason I question if was there was the ease in which a stray hit started the engine fire in your track Hunde.

I will check the thickness of that plate and the penetration of the Mg131 but, it is probably correct that the HMG penetrates.

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Hunde_3.JG51
07-16-2004, 11:48 PM
No problem Faustnik, I just didn't understand what you meant http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1072.gif. Thanks for the info, and thanks again for reviewing track.

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Gibbage1
07-17-2004, 12:05 AM
Hay. I was one of them! A lot of people here come on and say "Hay, there is a problem. Because I say so!" and bring NO proof and do NO test's. For some strange reason we need to trust his word? No. If I posted here "I think the 109 is overmodeled, because I say so" I would get ripped a new *** by 109 pilots http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif So some people got ripped a new *** here till they braught forth the proper proof and did a little testing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:

I still find it hard to believe/disturbing that so many people tried to deny/defend this. This bug hurts the P-63 as much as it helps it. All I can say is, I told you so...

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jenikovtaw
07-17-2004, 12:08 AM
I was wondering the following:

in a relatively high g maneuvere, if a wing is hit, its structural integrity decreases, and so in a high G turn, it may collapse. (like the shuttle)

I don't know if thats modelled in IL2, but maybe the combination of big cannons + high G maneuvers caueses wings to break.

Anyway, is this modelled in il2?

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Gibbage1
07-17-2004, 12:11 AM
PLEASE dont call me a god. I get enough **** from Ivan (he would get the joke).

I have spoken with Oleg in a few E-mails about the MG151/20. I cant say what has transpired since I try to keep my E-mails to myself, or he would no longer feel the need to have a private conversation with me if I just turn around and blab it to the comunity. But he is well awar of peoples concerns about the MG151/20.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:

An admission from inside the inner circle.

There IS a God. (thank you, thank you, thank you)

Looking forward to them actually being weapons in the new patch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gibbage1
07-17-2004, 12:13 AM
I have seen this offline, but not online. I have hit an AI in the wing offline. He got away. A little wile later I see him pull up from a dive and SNAP the wing fell off that I hit. Also a burning wing seems to have less and less integrity as time goes buy. Till eather something explodes, or something gives. But I dont see this online at all.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jenikovtaw:
I was wondering the following:

in a relatively high g maneuvere, if a wing is hit, its structural integrity decreases, and so in a high G turn, it may collapse. (like the shuttle)

I don't know if thats modelled in IL2, but maybe the combination of big cannons + high G maneuvers caueses wings to break.

Anyway, is this modelled in il2?

http://www.theartofwarfare.net/ftp/graphics/sigs/EXT-jenikovtaw.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NorrisMcWhirter
07-17-2004, 02:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Please stick with me on this one.

We all know that the damage for the MG-151/20 is PORKED!

We all know most complaints about the P-63 are comming from people who fly 109's or 190's using 20MM.

Put 1 and 1 togeather.

Please. Im at work now, but PLEASE test OTHER CANONS! I know for a FACT that I have had my wings removed from 2 hits by a Spit. Also Yak's have no problems clipping my wings.

So before you come here spouting off "THE DM IS PORKED!" please do some testing. Maybe its not the P-63DM, but the MG151/20 your using on the P-63.

Gib

P.S. IM NOT SAYING THIS IS THE CASE! Im saying its a POSSIBLE EXPLINATION! More test's must be done. But to accuse something without doing test's is rather stupid and ignorant.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not the 20mm. I wouldn't even entertain the thought of taking this T72 on with a 20mm on board. I've hit these things with the 4x30mms of the 262-1a and only taken an elevator off/caused the engine to smoke - that's at poink blank range.

What's worse about it is the endurance of the engine. As said before, it's been the case twice now that I've been caught by one in a Ta152 where the P63 had it's engine smoking prior to engaging.

I've also been on the other side of the fence and flown it around for about 20 mins, full power, after taking a flak hit causing the engine to smoke - in which time I downed two aircraft, I might add.

Oleg said he had overmodelled certain aircraft and I can well believe it with this one.

Cheers,
Norris

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F19_Ob
07-17-2004, 02:55 AM
Im randomly pleased with the damage modelling.

I also suspect that many more would be more accepting if the visual damage model was improved.

The 109's have a very developed "visual" damage modell compared to most allied planes (dont now why, maybe different people modelled them?) Planes like yaks and La5 -7 have a very sparingly modelled visual damage that normally only show after severe cannon shelling.


This is old but I belive That if a plane show damage, Most of us would cope with it not going down.

There wouldnt be statements like:
" I hit him with the cannon two times and he just kept flying and fighting without a scratch"

Just my guess http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

Arms1
07-17-2004, 04:26 AM
just curious as to why every thread started by Gibbage since the release of AEP has an air of negativity to it, have not seen one positive thread by you since its release

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Abbuzze
07-17-2004, 04:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Please stick with me on this one.

We all know that the damage for the MG-151/20 is PORKED!

We all know most complaints about the P-63 are comming from people who fly 109's or 190's using 20MM.

Put 1 and 1 togeather.

Please. Im at work now, but PLEASE test OTHER CANONS! I know for a FACT that I have had my wings removed from 2 hits by a Spit. Also Yak's have no problems clipping my wings.

So before you come here spouting off "THE DM IS PORKED!" please do some testing. Maybe its not the P-63DM, but the MG151/20 your using on the P-63.

Gib
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I fly mostly the G10 with a MK108 cannon... it´s the same result. No struktural failures, the best I reach is that the P63 is loosing an elevator.

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WUAF_Badsight
07-17-2004, 07:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:

A lot of people here come on and say "Hay, there is a problem. Because I say so!" and bring NO proof and do NO test's.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

& some post about problems they see because they are not ******ed one country fan dumba$$es & actually fly all planes

& some of these same people actually love the game & play it a lot

so if some of these people point out stuff , its cause THERE IS A ACTUAL POINT OR PROBLEM

.
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VW-IceFire
07-17-2004, 08:06 AM
Sounds good that they are looking into it. Should be good to see that little DM problem fixed. I like flying the P-63 but its a little strange sometimes as everyone has noted.

Should be a good thing.

Plus aiming that darned cannon is hard work http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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KaRaYa-X
07-17-2004, 09:19 AM
Since the release of AEP I have only ONCE seen a P63 loose a wing (after what seems like a total FW190A 20mm supply). Furthermore I have never ever encountered a P63 being ripped into two pieces


Even with Mk108 armament you can fire as many shells into the wing as you want and it will only leak some fuel at best... Okay, elevators come off from time to time but that's already very rare!

The only way I'm able to down one of these tanks is by either killing the pilot or setting the engine on fire...
If the engine only smokes - that's nothing; I've seen Kingcobras fly for another 30 minutes until the engine finally set on fire!


That's pretty annoying as I've been looking forward to this plane. But with this kind of DM I just can't stand it.

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bun-bun195333
07-17-2004, 09:36 AM
I wouldn't say the P-63 is indestructible. I spent all afternoon yesterday shooting it down with the P-51C, Spit IX and the 190D9. I couldn't blow the wings off with the P-51 but it would light up like a roman candle with a few seconds of fire into the engine compartment. My worst time was 4:30.

I could use some of that P-63 wing glue to keep my P-51 from shedding wings in a fast dive.

Here is a screenshot of a P-63 with the right wing and the tail blown off.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/P39Armor.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~argylestransom/Pics/A10Bun.jpg (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/browse/)

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
07-17-2004, 09:52 AM
seems like i can't even hit the wing in most cases.

Try to use a 109 uo to G6, with MG151/20 in the nose, close up to the P63 and try to hit the wing...seems like the bullets are just going thur without exploding or something...

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/blacksheep.jpg

patch_adams
07-17-2004, 10:11 AM
ban the luftwiners

KGr.HH-Sunburst
07-17-2004, 10:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch_adams:
ban the luftwiners<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif LOL your beloved plane is detected with a bug so now you just say ban the luftwhiners LMAO http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

im sorry i shouted bloody murder about the P63 DM without backing it up

anyway thanks for the guys who made the tests http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifits good someone shed some light on the subject ,this is no bug to be ignored i hope oleg will fix it

http://www.hell-hounds.de
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/sunsigHH.jpg
''All your Mustangs are belong to us''

steiner562
07-17-2004, 11:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch_adams:
ban the luftwiners<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HELL leave it the way it is I like targets that go BOOOM! everytime. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

http://www.bf109.com/gallery/grayeagle/gallgray01sm.jpg