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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:11 PM
Not really IL-2 FB related, but I hope you will over look it this once.

A page of Aviation History has turned today. We will never see her like again.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/Endodontics/Why/ConcordeFareWell02.jpg?0.6866016913037065
http://mysite.freeserve.com/Endodontics/Why/ConcordeFareWell.jpg?0.4635976478295025

I saw her maiden flight, it made me cry... It has had the same affect today.

Sec.



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The First of the Few

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:11 PM
Not really IL-2 FB related, but I hope you will over look it this once.

A page of Aviation History has turned today. We will never see her like again.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/Endodontics/Why/ConcordeFareWell02.jpg?0.6866016913037065
http://mysite.freeserve.com/Endodontics/Why/ConcordeFareWell.jpg?0.4635976478295025

I saw her maiden flight, it made me cry... It has had the same affect today.

Sec.



<center>http://mysite.freeserve.com/Endodontics/sigs/WhirlySig03.jpg?0.8016962940949658

'Whirlwind Whiner'
The First of the Few

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:17 PM
My bro is a civil aviation addict. His biggest dream was to ride that plane one day.
We were saving money for a ticket but no joy. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

____________________

Vengeanze

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:27 PM
Did you read about the guy who bought hundreds of packets of biscuits from Tescos to get extra points and converted them into Air Miles and flew to the US for 800.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3204699.stm



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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:29 PM
i bet that one day all passenger airlines will either be supersonic or just go into orbit.

we havent seen the last of their type, just the concorde

flying online as 25th_Inmate



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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:44 PM
ryan2107 wrote:
- i bet that one day all passenger airlines will
- either be supersonic or just go into orbit.
-
- we havent seen the last of their type, just the
- concorde
-
- flying online as 25th_Inmate
-
-
-
-
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/inmate.jpg
-
-
-
-

well u cant fly over land going supersonic. the concord flew over water.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:49 PM
It was her last landing. She is beatiful.

It is very sad/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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adlabs6
10-25-2003, 12:19 AM
I watched her final landing on live TV today. Concorde was always a symbol of tomorrow for me, maybe we will see another in the future.

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 12:25 AM
An incredably sad day for Britain today, its certainly one of the largest steps made in aviation lost. May we tresure our memories, and may we pray something comes out of this god awful mess /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I salute you concorde

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 02:11 AM
Yes,sad,got her in my fs 2001

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 02:23 AM
End of an era, I'd say. Until the economy/efficiency thing can be solved, I'd say we've seen the last of high-speed transports.

Many ppl believe that Jet travel was adopted for the speed, and that SST would be the next logical step. However Jet airliners were adopted because of their efficiency (they do guzzle fuel, but the fuel is cheep, the engines last forever by piston standards, and they can carry more passengers for longer distances)

The concord was never efficient. Few passengers, gobs of fuel, and limited # of routes (no sonic boom over populations). Even subsidized by the governments, the concord never turned a profit.

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 02:40 AM
One is still flying................

For airshows and that kind of stuff. Guess who is her pilot......

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 03:10 AM
Just one?, whoopie do... considering our nation has lost one of the most important items of our heritage. Sorry, i'm just pretty upset about what we have lost

Economics will be accepted, but never seeing her fly as she should be to me, will be very hard to get over, for most of my life i have heard and seen her pretty much everyday

Long live the memories of a truely remarkable aircraft, i for one will have great pleasure in telling my children and my grandchildren about her /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

S!

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 09:20 AM
Not to mention the sound of it.
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_113_1067031284.jpg






Message Edited on 10/25/0308:22AM by Superluminal

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 10:07 AM
It's sad! Someone, cheer me up!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif



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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 10:15 AM
FA whiskey so whos the pilot then?


Superluminal what the goodness gracious is that thing inh your sig?

Konigwolf


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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 10:21 AM
It looks like a J29 with a P-47 engine!

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 10:28 AM
robban75 wrote:
- It looks like a J29 with a P-47 engine!
-
- <center>
-
-
-
- http://members.chello.se/unni/rote3.JPG
-
-
-
- 'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky
- than good any day!'
-
- </center>

Hehe, yes and a Avenger centre section /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 10:39 AM
Well, I'm a Brit and I've always thought Concorde was a complete waste of space.

Vast amounts of tax-payer's money (i.e., my money) were used to write off the development costs of an aircraft that has only ever flown wealthy businessmen and celebrities between London and New York. One estimate I have seen is 11 billion (US$ 18 billion) at 2003 rates.

Add that to the fact it's an inherently dangerous design (low-speed handling and engines in shared pods under the wing) and I remain less than impressed.

To quote one academic about the first stage of the development in the 1960s:

"...the estimated cost of a Concorde SST was taken to be 6 million. Since the price of a Boeing 707 was 2 million it was clear that the Concorde sales would either be negligible or the Concorde would have to sold at a loss. The Minster of Aviation had said, "Space beckons us with a golden finger." Lord Brabazon in the House of Lords replied, "My Lords, it beckons us with the three brass balls of the pawnbroker." Thayer Watkins.

The dusbin of history awaits (it has a spot next to the Bf-109).

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 10:48 AM
The British folk should not be sad. You should be most proud of what the concorde stands for and for what it has done in the name of aviation.

I must admit that when I heard the news, a childhood dream had vanished, but instead of being sad, I'm looking to the future to see what you folks across the pond will come up with next..../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Disclaimer: This is my opinion. Yours and others may vary.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:05 PM
Last I heard 1 of the American Companies (probably Boeing) was teaming up with the Russians and their SST 'Concorde-ski' (Tu-144?) to produce a new SST.Don't know how true it is they're only 30 years too late, plus apart from a Pacific or Atlantic route where can it fly?

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:07 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Its a J29,An Avenger engine,Swordfish torpedo and some cut and paste madness.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_113_1067031284.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:43 PM
Thanks for the pics.

I saw all three passing by on what must have been their final approaches. All within five minutes out of my car window while driving my son to football in Clapham. We heard that characteristic roar first and then scanned the skies. I tried to explain to my 3 year old son the wonder and beauty of those planes: 25- 30 years ago the whole playground, the whole school - everyone - would stop whatever they were doing and gaze upward whenever one of them went over.

It's still the same: grace and beauty. Now a monument to a lost age of British inventiveness, engineering skill and confidence.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:44 PM
RocketDog wrote:
- Well, I'm a Brit and I've always thought Concorde
- was a complete waste of space.
-
- Vast amounts of tax-payer's money (i.e., my money)
- were used to write off the development costs of an
- aircraft that has only ever flown wealthy
- businessmen and celebrities between London and New
- York. One estimate I have seen is 11 billion (US$
- 18 billion) at 2003 rates.

Were you paying tax in the 1960s and 70s? That chip on your shoulder needs some salt and vinegar on it.

- Add that to the fact it's an inherently dangerous
- design (low-speed handling and engines in shared
- pods under the wing) and I remain less than
- impressed.

One fatal crash in over 30 years of service wasn't too bad- and the cause was not handling related.
To quote the Nov 2003 edition of 'Aeroplane':

"Most of the early SST studies had a row of engines in a tight group at the back, but by the time the Concorde was schemed the best arrangement was seen as a pair of engines under each wing. Each twin engine nacelle was placed well outboard but not so far outboard as to make it difficult for for the wing underside to guide the flow into the inlet at high angles of attack. Because of the need for complicated inlet and exhaust systems the nacelles were 40ft long. Individual nacelles were studied, but although it increased the likelihood of trouble with one engine affecting its neighbour, the best answer was two engines per nacelle.

Have you ever considered the possibility that the best aerodynamicists of Britain and France might know more about it than you?

- To quote one academic about the first stage of the
- development in the 1960s:
-
- "...the estimated cost of a Concorde SST was taken
- to be 6 million. Since the price of a Boeing 707
- was 2 million it was clear that the Concorde sales
- would either be negligible or the Concorde would
- have to sold at a loss. The Minster of Aviation had
- said, "Space beckons us with a golden finger." Lord
- Brabazon in the House of Lords replied, "My Lords,
- it beckons us with the three brass balls of the
- pawnbroker." Thayer Watkins.
-
- The dusbin of history awaits (it has a spot next to
- the Bf-109).

You quote an obscure American academic to support your view? On the contrary, it was not clear that Concorde would not sell in the 1960s- there was great optimism that it would sell well, and if OPEC had not seen fit to increase the cost of oil as it did in the early seventies it might have done so- noise campaigners notwithstanding.

Of course, you and Thayer Watkins would have stared into your crystal balls in 1965 and known the truth all along.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 03:29 PM
BerkshireHunt wrote:
-
- RocketDog wrote:

-- Vast amounts of tax-payer's money (i.e., my money)
-- were used to write off the development costs of an
-- aircraft that has only ever flown wealthy
-- businessmen and celebrities between London and New
-- York. One estimate I have seen is 11 billion (US$
-- 18 billion) at 2003 rates.
-
- Were you paying tax in the 1960s and 70s? That chip
- on your shoulder needs some salt and vinegar on it.

I'd rather the money had been spent on something that would yield a return today. Simple examples would include education, welfare or health. Of course, that's just a personal political preference.

-- Add that to the fact it's an inherently dangerous
-- design (low-speed handling and engines in shared
-- pods under the wing) and I remain less than
-- impressed.
-
- One fatal crash in over 30 years of service wasn't
- too bad- and the cause was not handling related.
- To quote the Nov 2003 edition of 'Aeroplane':
-
-

- Individual nacelles were studied,
- but although it increased the likelihood of trouble
- with one engine affecting its neighbour, the best
- answer was two engines per nacelle.
-
-
- Have you ever considered the possibility that the
- best aerodynamicists of Britain and France might
- know more about it than you?

They made a good guess - but it contributed to a pretty horrific crash. It's obviously not possible to design risk out of an aircraft altogether, but when you flew in a Concorde you were flying with design decisions on safety that seemed appropriate in the 1960s, not the 21st century. I believe that modern designs are built with a much tougher philosophy on safety.

- Of course, you and Thayer Watkins would have stared
- into your crystal balls in 1965 and known the truth
- all along.

I don't think enthusiasm was at all unanimous at the time it was being designed and the whole Concorde programme was quite contentious from the start. From what I know (and I freely admit I am not anything like an expert on this period of aviation), there was a dawning recognition even then that the future probably lay with cheap mass transport at subsonic speeds and arguments were made that Europe should develop effective rivals to aircraft like the Boeing 707, rather than more speculative projects like Concorde.

Of course, in the end the skeptics were quite right, the European Airbus has become a hugely successful enterprise and Concorde became just a curiosity. But the decision to go with Concorde handed dominance of the airliner market to the US for several decades. For more than 20 years the airways were dominated by 707s and 747s built outside of Europe. Only recently has Airbus become a serious rival to the US industry.

On balance, I think Concorde was an economic gamble with rather long odds against success. The aerospace industries in both the USA and USSR experimented with SSTs and decided against them. I think the European aviation industry would have done better to produce subsonic airliners - surely a better return on the investement in time and people.


Regards,

RocketDog.

PS - I put the Watkins quote in just because it showed concern at the time as well as featuring Brabazon's witicism.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 03:40 PM
No601_Swallow wrote:
- It's still the same: grace and beauty. Now a
- monument to a lost age of British inventiveness,
- engineering skill and confidence.


British AND French.... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

That's why it got its name (in the French spelling, but pretty close to "concord" nonetheless...)

The start of a highly succesful cooperation carried on in Airbus, the world's premier passenger jet maker now-a-days.

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 03:43 PM
It's the classic arguement of cost vs. return on Concorde- just like, say the Apollo space program.

As to the crash... well the accident's root cause has been identified as a piece of debris on the CDC runway that came from an American Airlines DC-10 (if I remember the correct airline), so you cannot really lay blame on the design of Concorde itself.

In terms of numbers of travellers killed in aircraft of a given, type Concorde claimed fewer lives than say the DC-10's, 737's and 747's.

All that aside, I'll miss Concorde- a true one of a kind in aviation....

(p.s yes I know about the Tu-144, but that was never fully practical for Mach 2 passenger transport).


"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 05:46 PM
NegativeGee wrote:

- (p.s yes I know about the Tu-144, but that was never
- fully practical for Mach 2 passenger transport).
-

Plus the French Air Force killed that off...allegedly. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 06:21 PM
A MAGNIFICENT achievement for brits and french and a marvel of aviation
It was sad to see the Tu-144 resting on the termac
It will be just as hard to see concorde doing the same

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 07:18 PM
That piece of debries damaged a tire, which then ruptured violenetly, and sent a large chunk throug hthe wing fuel tanks. Loosing a tire is acceptable by modern aviation safety standards. Having that same lost tire destroy the aircraft is not. Considering that the aircraft already had a history of tire blowouts causing significant damage to the underside fo the wing it was negligent of its operators to ignore the problem until catastrophy struck.

However, the Condorde was still a beautiful and inovative design, that never managed to become economical.

On a side note, I have rather a distaste for Airbus products. They have very poor electircal systems for fly-by-wire aircraft. It makes me rather uncomfortable to see all the lights on the aircraft blink out when they start the engines.

Their legal shenanigans bug me too. If you are going to put a protective tarrif, then put a protective tarrif, don't put in noise restrictions, and then exempt local aircraft from them. Protective legislation is fine, but fraudulent safety regulations are another thing entirely.

I mean, if noise limits don't apply to certain aircraft, how much of a streach is it to say that maximum exhaust gas temperature before overhaul doesn't apply either?

Harry Voyager

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 08:31 PM
Unfortunately, the accountants had the last word. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 08:41 PM
DeerHunterUK wrote:
-
- NegativeGee wrote:
-
-- (p.s yes I know about the Tu-144, but that was never
-- fully practical for Mach 2 passenger transport).
--
-
- Plus the French Air Force killed that
- off...allegedly. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-

Now you have me intregued- care to elaborate further?

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 08:45 PM
There's some stunning pictures of Concorde to be found at Airliners.net, most of them make for good wallpaper. The images speak for themselves, so to the link:

http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?&aircraft_genericsearch=Sud-BAC%20Concorde%7CAerospatiale-British%20Aerospace%20Concorde%7CAerospatiale-BAC%20Concorde&maxres=500&nr_of_rows=500&first_this_page=0&page_limit=15&sort_order=photo_id+DESC&thumbnails=&engine_version=5.0&nr_pages=34&page=

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 08:47 PM
the concord was 2 feet longer in-flight due to the high temperatures of high speed flight

also had a double skin

the windows were cold to touch too

was an amazing design for the 60s

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 08:54 PM
It is a beatifull plane...
Thanks for the pics (BBC it is aint it - saw that) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Still it will fly again (on occasion) for non-profit remembrance flights they (BA) said. Most will go to museums /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

now need i remind you of the bad security @ museums ?? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Let's steal one !

Who'll bring the fuel ?

Tell me...
I want in ! hehe

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 09:30 PM
I guess you missed the TV show that was just shown this week on the Paris crash Harry. Well worth the viewing if it comes back on.

Numerous aircrew said the 'crash' had already started to happen before the Concorde ran over the engine piece from the Boeing. For starters there was a missing spacer for the 2 front wheels. This let the wheels wobble. The a/c also took off downwind and was overloaded by a couple of tons. Pilots said because of the donwind TO, this was an equivelent higher overload, iirc 10t.

The a/c barely missed a 747 (estimated 6m) carrying the French President waiting to cross the runway. The Concorde was veering left from brakes off. The a/c also rotated at too slow a speed at a too high AoA.

In the end, there seems to be some sort of cover-up by the French government. Even the British invetigators did not have access to all the info need to conclude what was the cause of the accident. The French government also disregarded some crash info. It was easier to blame the peice of metal.


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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 09:39 PM
I'd forgotten about the missing spacer, and drift. It's been a while since I read the Air and Space write up on the crash report.

But, if I recall correctly, the critical part was that a chunk of the tire went through a fuel tank, and caused a fire in the wing. If the aircraft had not caught fire, it could still have been recovered.

The fix was to redesign the tires, and armour the undersides of the fuel tanks, which was done successfully, without causing any degredation in flight performance or economy. (The new tires weighed considerably less, which offset the extra weight of the armour.)

Harry Voyager

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 09:49 PM
NegativeGee wrote:
-
- Now you have me intregued- care to elaborate
- further?
-

"The Russian Tu144 is a supersonic transport plane very similar to the Anglo-French Concorde, but slightly larger and faster. With the help of spies who stole the Concorde plans from the French, the Russians were able to fly their plane a few months earlier. However, at the 1973 Paris Air Show the French got their revenge. While the Tu144 was preparing for takeoff the French air traffic controllers told the pilot that his display time had been cut in half. Also, they failed to inform him that a French Mirage fighter would be shadowing the Russian plane. This clumsy attempt at reverse industrial espionage was ordered in an attempt to photograph the Tu144's innovative canards, small wing-like structures near the front of the plane. The Russians took off and as part of their display pulled up into a rapid climb. After ascending several thousand feet, the pilot suddenly saw the Mirage in what looked like a collision course. To avoid a crash, he pushed hard on the control column, resulting in a violent reaction of the Concordski which caused the four engines to stall. To restart them he put the plane into a dive, but while pulling out of the dive the plane broke up in the air, killing all on board and others in a village near the airport. Unable to prove French interference, and fearful that the French would blame the accident on mechanical problems, the Russians didn't challenge the official cover-up."

I have to add that this is 1 of those 'conspiracy theories' that goes round from time to time.I think in the official verdict the pilot was given the blame for the crash.I've seen video clips from the air show and there definitely was a Mirage fighter jet taking off just before the Tu-144 which is highly unusual in itself, what happened thereafter is speculation.


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In memory of 'The Few'
<img src=http://www.lima1.co.uk/Sharkey/spitfire.jpg>
The Tangmere Pilots - http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk/
Know your enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles, you will never be defeated.

Message Edited on 10/25/0309:52PM by DeerHunterUK

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 09:59 PM
It must be over ten years since I went out of my way to go up to Breedon on the Hill and watch Concorde take off from Castle Donington and pass overhead for what I thought then would be one of her last commercial flights.

My father, an aeronautical engineer, had had a very small part in the design stage of Concorde but he went on to work in railway design. He was proud of the railway stuff but felt Concorde a complete waste of space.

I did'nt see it that way ten years ago but I do now.

In a world where we are being constantly harrassed for driving to work in our econo cars that ecological nightmare symbol of waste of space celebrity two finger tosh transport should have gone to scrap before I had a chance to see it.

Hopefully now the concept of getting somwhere you don't need to go before you need to at everyone elses expence, will die for good.



Message Edited on 10/25/03 09:02PM by Oboe

Message Edited on 10/25/0309:04PM by Oboe

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 10:01 PM
Oooo... I see, thanks for the info.

Now I need to see thaty bit of film of the Tu-144 at Paris again /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

XyZspineZyX
11-03-2003, 01:35 PM
keep your chin up maybe branson will get his wish and going on his from it could very well be a reality

Bart.
SECUDUS wrote:
- Not really IL-2 FB related, but I hope you will over
- look it this once.
-
- A page of Aviation History has turned today. We
- will never see her like again.
-
- <img
- src="http://mysite.freeserve.com/Endodontics/Why/C
- oncordeFareWell02.jpg?0.6866016913037065">
- <img
- src="http://mysite.freeserve.com/Endodontics/Why/C
- oncordeFareWell.jpg?0.4635976478295025">
-
- I saw her maiden flight, it made me cry... It has
- had the same affect today.
-
- Sec.
-
-
-
-
- <center><img
- src="http://mysite.freeserve.com/Endodontics/sigs/
- WhirlySig03.jpg?0.8016962940949658">
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- 'Whirlwind Whiner'
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- The First of the Few