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RedDeth
02-22-2004, 03:18 PM
what percentage of fullreal FB gamers have trackIR?
i understand its not needed with cockpit off but i think it may give a gigantic advantage to fullreal pilots so whats the scoop? is it a huge difference? and can you compete in fullreal on a top level without trackIR?

i get challenged all the time to fullreal games and am wondering if without track ir will i be at a disadvantage?
whats the real deal on track IR? if you compete in competitions should you use it and do all the gamers in competitions have track IR for full real?
mind you my favorite planes are 109s doras, fws in fb.so my second question of the day is can those planes compete well in full real vs the mustangs jugs and yaks?

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of Now 12 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

RedDeth
02-22-2004, 03:18 PM
what percentage of fullreal FB gamers have trackIR?
i understand its not needed with cockpit off but i think it may give a gigantic advantage to fullreal pilots so whats the scoop? is it a huge difference? and can you compete in fullreal on a top level without trackIR?

i get challenged all the time to fullreal games and am wondering if without track ir will i be at a disadvantage?
whats the real deal on track IR? if you compete in competitions should you use it and do all the gamers in competitions have track IR for full real?
mind you my favorite planes are 109s doras, fws in fb.so my second question of the day is can those planes compete well in full real vs the mustangs jugs and yaks?

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of Now 12 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

TooCooL34
02-22-2004, 03:46 PM
I can do it but I won't do it again without Tir.
I'm not masochist.



=815=TooCooL34 in =815=Squad, South Korea

--Quick Spec--
WinXP Pro, AthlonXP 3200+, 1024DDR, FX5900XT 128MB, two SW pr2, TIR2

DaBallz
02-22-2004, 03:52 PM
Track IR rocks in FB with cockpit on or cockpit optional.

Da...

T_O_A_D
02-22-2004, 03:56 PM
I fly with it cockpit only any server. I like the immersion of the pit. But I like externals so when I'm getting my arse handed to me I can spawn and just watch the show for a bit. I do alot of watching http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif All TIR does for me is lets me know I'm owned a bit sooner than I would of known with the hat.

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
131st_Toad's Squad link (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
2.11 drivers (http://home.mchsi.com/~131st-vfw/NaturalPoint_trackIR_2_11.exe)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

Recon_609IAP
02-22-2004, 04:02 PM
can you compete in full real?

that's up to you bud - you think if I have a better joystick I will make a better pilot?

like some kid who buys a pair of nike bball shoes and thinks that is going to make him a good basketball player.

Trackir is not magical, it's simply a handfree mouse - make what you will out of that.

S!
609IAP_Recon

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Recon_609IAP
02-22-2004, 04:03 PM
one note:

people play full real because they like the experience.

I play full real because I see FB as a sim and not an arcade game.

If you don't think you can play or compete in that arena, you don't need to.

we have pilots in 609IAP with no TIR, no pedals, crappy joystick, small monitors.

They can give anybody a fight in full real - just ask 609IAP_Vodka - he uses a keypad and a old ms joystick and averages more kills than any pilot in our war.

S!
609IAP_Recon

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HerrGraf
02-22-2004, 04:38 PM
The one big advantage I noticed while watching someone use T.I.R. is if you are the rear gunner and you look towards the pilot, you can see farther towards the front of the plane than if you only have the mouse. Not haveing to reach for the mouse to look around can be advantages, but not neccessarily that big an advantage.

Bruce N. Graf

Dunkelgrun
02-22-2004, 05:00 PM
If you have TrackIR then you don't use Padlock, so it evens itself out. IMHO anyway.
Cheers!

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Dnmy
02-22-2004, 05:22 PM
It's silly to think that trackIR is for full real games only.It's just as nice on arcade:

http://members.home.nl/dnme/tracks/FB/nocockpit.ntrk

FR makes FB a totally different game from arcade though.

And it's not the hardware that makes the difference. It's the guy behind the controls. You give a dweeb a trackIR a HOTAS and some pedals and he'll still fly like a dweeb, losing to the guy with a twisty stick and hatswitch.

Only thing that trackIR does is make you feel and enjoy the experience of sitting in a cockpit of a ww2 plane instead of in a cockpit of a futuristic space ship.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

You can only compete in FR if you can get your SA without externals, with cockpit on, without icons, without padlock. So that question is more for you to answer.

AFJ_Locust
02-22-2004, 05:36 PM
What he ment was given 2 pilots with simular skill would the one with TIR benifit or have a small advantage over the guy a pov hat or mouse to look around, In full real settings...

I fly in full real from time to time & tend to think TIR is definataly an advantage altho I do not have it so im guessing here.

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

BM357_Raven
02-22-2004, 05:43 PM
Well here's the scoop. When I first started I used padlock and my buddy tin used his mini-mouse stick on his CH Throttle.

He seemed pretty proficient with it and not to be one-upped I decided to try to learn to use the mouse.

At first it seemed pretty aparent to me that the mouse was not going to cut it. I found it very annoying and very confusing. But I figured that if I could just train my left hand to be more steady, I might figure out if it was usuable. For the longest time, however, it felt like a big waste of time.

Then, one night I seemed to be doing sort of ok with it. Like it had clicked a little or something. I went into my settings and set the mouse sensativity in the FB setup to 2. It seemed to help a bit more... Still I kinda sucked. This was like two weeks into it, I think.

Then slowly I began to notice that my teammates were flying a little more like they were kinda oblivious to me when I would get really close up and the fight would turn multi-directional.

It seemed like they were more or less sitting there for me.. I also noticed that I felt more natural with the mouse as I practiced more. Like I, never lost contact and didnt have to think or focus where I had to put the mouse.. I just followed them fluidly and with ease. Not like the initial experience which was more like rubbing your belly and patting your head...

Then it just clicked. It was ON. I could follow them and confuse them and stay 'locked' on them visually like glue.. I was proficient after 3-4 weeks.

Then came TrackIR. I bought it and could not get it to work. I couldnt control it. It would get stuck in crazy places when I was trying to scan and I would crash. I got fed up on how choppy it was and just put it away.

Then I spoke to another guy who said that he didnt have those problems with his TiR.. So I had him send me my profile which I installed. I took a bunch of dots and stuck them together to make a 1" square. Then I found it to work much better. I could fly with it ok but not fight real well. There was a learning curve there too.

But immediately I noticed how much cooler the game was. It was like now, I was REALLY playing the game.. Almost like it had become more believable on a sort of...intuitive level...mmm.., maybe to say it just became more natural to what the brain recognizes--so it was like I was inside there; in the cockpit. I was astonished. It was a whole new FB...

As I got better, I began to realize that TrackIR wasnt didnt just increase the sense of 'believabilty' but also gave me my left hand back. Now it sits on my CH Throttle. I have comms programed there, gear, bombs, radiator, FOV's, everything..

I noticed though, that I was more proficient and better with the mouse. Then I stopped using the mouse. I think like anything, the mouse-trick requires practice, and if you dont stick with it, it fades a little. BUT, in reality, I think I am probably a little better at looking with the mouse than with TrackIR.

However, I wouldn't trade anything for the sense of 'being in the cockpit' and the bottom line--and this is just oppinion--is that if you are a real junky and this is your main hobby, then you owe it to yourself to at least swallow the 100+ bucks and buy the thing to test it. If you hate it, then just return the thing. But for FB junkies....well, let's just say if you dont like it, you ain't got it working right...

S~

hope that helps.....

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Bull_Pup
02-22-2004, 05:53 PM
Track IR 100% changes the way you fly this sim. The change is a huge step in the direction of realism.

Without trackir you must consciously scan the world around you as an active, unnatural thought process. your brain must constantly tell your thumb to move the hatswitch, mouse.

With trackir that thought process is no longer active in your brain. Situational awareness becomes a subconscious process, one as natural as driving to work. You dont tell yourself to look out of your car window when you drive, it just happens naturaly. Same thing occurs when flying FB with trackIR.

Its all seemless. I can instantly focus on anything. I can effortless track anything as it fly's by, no matter what my attitude, no matter what manuever Im performing.

Flying sims without trackIR is an unnatural experience.

AFJ_Locust
02-22-2004, 05:54 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

noshens
02-22-2004, 07:29 PM
Track IR gives you same adventage as joystick over keyboard.

WUAF_Badsight
02-22-2004, 09:15 PM
are you used to a Mouse ?

TrackIR gives no advantages as you got to be used to what you use & good with it

can you DF with a loacked cockpit ? ....... hmmmmmmm

the Dora can totally compete with Jugs & Ponys

WUAF_Badsight
02-22-2004, 09:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_Pup:
Flying sims without trackIR is an unnatural experience.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats rubbish

how crappy were you at using things other than TrackIR ?

it comes down to what your used to & how well you use what you have

like riding on the road with you brake in its normal place on a roadbike or having a thumb brake set on the handel bar

eaiser to use your thumb but you learn using your foot

Old_Canuck
02-22-2004, 09:22 PM
I'm not an online ace but using the mouse with the left hand feels just as easy as TrackIR but using TrackIR frees up the left hand for other important things like lifting the coffee mug, answering the phone ..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."

RedDeth
02-22-2004, 09:25 PM
rgr my question is with two equal full real pilots. same ability. does the one with TRACK IR 2 have an advantage over the other one that just has a joystick? im contemplating going fullreal part time but i dont want anyone having a cheesy advantage if i dont have track ir2. i guess im saying ill buy it if its really an advantage that the aces use. am i provicient in fb already? heres a link. im ok i guess http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/index.cfm my name on that site is RedDeth. http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/round9.cfm

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of Now 12 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

Slammin_
02-22-2004, 09:27 PM
If my neck would make an audible 'click' when I get to the TrackIR center, it would be so much better!

T_O_A_D
02-22-2004, 09:27 PM
Great post Raven. Sums it up quite well.

Yes if you have two equal pilots both know each other quite well and trade kills often. then one gets TIR and in a few days or weeks he will own the other. Till he gets one too. Been there done that. But my skill is no means as good as some of the guys online I'm owned quite often online.

Don't worry about being good enough. FR guys like target drones. The only person that will be after your skills to improve will be your wingman.

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
131st_Toad's Squad link (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
2.11 drivers (http://home.mchsi.com/~131st-vfw/NaturalPoint_trackIR_2_11.exe)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

Slammin_
02-22-2004, 09:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
rgr my question is with two equal full real pilots. same ability. does the one with TRACK IR 2 have an advantage over the other one that just has a joystick? im contemplating going fullreal part time but i dont want anyone having a cheesy advantage if i dont have track ir2. i guess im saying ill buy it if its really an advantage that the aces use. am i provicient in fb already? heres a link. im ok i guess http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/index.cfm my name on that site is RedDeth. http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/round9.cfm

http://www.fighterjocks.net home of Now 12 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't call TrackIR and advantage, as much as I would call a good HOTAS setup an advantage. And with a good HOTAS setup, you can be just as effective as you can with TrackIR.

The difference is, TrackIR adds immersion!

Dnmy
02-22-2004, 10:16 PM
You're asking the same question that has been answered already by everybody.

Are you proficient now in FR? without trackIR, with cockpit on, without externals, without icons, without padlock?
If you can answer that question with a yes, then SA wise, you will have no disadvantage vs a player with trackIR. If the answer to that question is a no, then SA wise, the trackIR isn't going to help you much either.

All it does is make the experience more enjoyable because it's handsfree. It's no magic skill enhancer.

WUAF_Badsight
02-22-2004, 10:25 PM
ahh yes but he wants some sort of advantage over others or he wouldnt be bothered asking

RedDeth
02-22-2004, 10:48 PM
wrong badsight. im not asking for an advantage. rather i dont want anyone to have an outside tool that gives them an UNFAIR advantage. i want a level playing field. and im asking first before shelling out 120 bucks if its necessary to have track ir 2 for fullreal. if 95 percent of fullreal gamers use track ir then that essentially answers my question that YES you need an outside tool to compete in fullreal at a top level.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of Now 12 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

adlabs6
02-22-2004, 10:51 PM
Perhaps a good way to answer this question is "would I rather be attacked by a guy with my skills at using TIR, or hat/mouse."

I'd rather face an equivalent to myself in combat while he's using TIR as well as I would. I just have too much distraction with the added POV motion while looking to get along with TIR. I tend to think in preset "pan modes" if you will, and I can spot check areas using the hat with no suprises. I know that when I release the hat, the view is totally still, and any movement is a bogey. My view with headtracking tends to crawl, just a couple of pixels around the desired aim, enough that it might mask a faint pixel moving.

Now, keep in mind... My vision is probably not as good as most peoples here, so no, we are NOT on par just because our hardware is. Things just work better for me when the view stops dead still when I want it to. Also add in the fact that I squirm around when aiming/shooting/looking and even with a months practice, I still got stressed using it, and my playtime shortened as a result my usual eyestrain combined with shoulder and neck tension. This same effect is enought to completely ruin the serenity of FS2004 for me, even worse than IL2.

To answer the question, I mainly fly my IL2 campaigns at full real. I am proficient at it, even the visual navigaion is very enjoyable. Last year I flew often in full real servers, though now it's rare. I am fully able to get kills, and I do NOT use padlock at all. Strangely, I felt that I scored better on FR servers than others, why I don't know. But in anycase, I thought that I did better with the hat switch.

I'm fairly alone in this opinion, but the hat is best for me so far.

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Slammin_
02-22-2004, 11:11 PM
"I'm fairly alone in this opinion, but the hat is best for me so far."

Nope, you are not alone in this opinion. Pretty much what I experience with TrackIR too. My neck does not go 'clunk' when I hit TrackIR center.

What this means is, if you are playing on a no icon server, unless you can keep your head perfectly still while looking around, that already hard to see 'dot' becomes a moving hard to see 'dot'. Using the absolute view positions of a joystick hat switch does have some advantages in this case.

Then again, after you get used to being still, being able to tell what/who moved when using TrackIR, nullifies the above. Plus you get the added immersion TrackIR gives ya!

And to repeat, that is the only advantage TrackIR gives you - Immersion

T_O_A_D
02-22-2004, 11:29 PM
Just set your deadzone a bit bigger an you don't have to sit so still when in the center view. You can also use your stick profiler to center view and when on the bandit hold it so your view is locked forward. and you then can put all the body english you want ito your advisary http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
131st_Toad's Squad link (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
2.11 drivers (http://home.mchsi.com/~131st-vfw/NaturalPoint_trackIR_2_11.exe)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

Slammin_
02-22-2004, 11:51 PM
Hmm, I think I know what you mean here. In Lomac, there is a view that sort of zooms in for gun, but also at the same time, does not pan with TrackIR.

This would be perfect and I dunno why I never thought of doing this with FB!

Thanks for the nudge Toad!

T_O_A_D
02-23-2004, 12:08 AM
Your welcome http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
131st_Toad's Squad link (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
2.11 drivers (http://home.mchsi.com/~131st-vfw/NaturalPoint_trackIR_2_11.exe)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

tttiger
02-23-2004, 12:36 AM
I have TIR and I wouldn't fly a sim that doesn't support it, but I don't think it gives me any advantage. It just make the experience feel more real when you can look around so easily.

I flew quite a few sims before Il-2 and before TIR using the hatswitch. I honestly don't think TIR makes bit of difference in the quality of my flying.

If that's what you're asking, no, it won't give you an edge.

(I've never used the mouse. How you guys work the throttle when your left hand is on the mouse???)

But do I recommend TIR? Absolutely. It's the best thing that's happened to sim flying since the joystick. If you don't have the money, go out and sell some blood. But get it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Now, if we can just get those "full real" guys to stop beating their hairy chests, it sure would be nice. I fly all settings. As long as the playing field is level, who cares? Methinks the Full Real guys have a massive inferiority complex or they wouldn't have to feel the need to constantly defend themselves.

One of the best things about IL-2 FB is that it offers lots of choices. In Real Life, we call that "Diversity."

Aloha,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

BigDukeSixx
02-23-2004, 12:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_Pup:
Flying sims without trackIR is an unnatural experience.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats rubbish

how crappy were you at using things other than TrackIR ?

it comes down to what your used to & how well you use what you have

like riding on the road with you brake in its normal place on a roadbike or having a thumb brake set on the handel bar

eaiser to use your thumb but you learn using your foot<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, you are talking rubbish, son! TIR in the most realistic option we have. Snap view, mouse look and PL don't come close to TIR. That's a fact!

WUAF_Badsight
02-23-2004, 03:02 AM
ENHHHH wrong answer

you look around with trackIR

i look around with my mouse

what happens if i can track a plane better than you can ?

does that prove that the mouse is better than TrackIR ? no of course it wouldnt

all it would prove is THAT YOU HAVE TO USE WHAT YOU HAVE WELL

skill doesnt come in a box old timer

Bull-Dog.
02-23-2004, 03:20 AM
TrackIr has not helped me much in Full real as I still loose track if I throw the A/C around a lot.
More practice required.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/bull_dog/images/3-picture.jpg?0.7185765628443178

carguy_
02-23-2004, 03:57 AM
I use my keyboard for looking around as well as a throttle,rudder etc.Pan view takes time to be efficent,but I have no trouble with looking around.

If you ask me,the biggest difference makes the monitor.The guy that has 19 compared to my 15 is alot better in spotting planes.

To see the enemy first is my biggest weakness.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

Welshman_PF
02-23-2004, 04:29 AM
my answer would be get trackIR red , i use it and love it and i am quite good with it, and the others guys in the PF with trackIR love it too.

to answer the question about the advantage, i would say yes , the one with track IR has the advantage

Bearcat99
02-23-2004, 04:46 AM
My 2 cents... I would say that due to the fact that like Raven said...TIR makes the whole target tracking more intuitive and natural I would have to say it is an advanyage. Not necessarily an unfair advantage..but an advantage. In terms of "fairness" there is no way to really judge things unless you have a guy with a Wingman 2 on a 450MHZ, 512MB, 64MGF2 on a 15" monitor flying against a guy with a HOTAS/TIR/P4 witha 9800XT and a G of RAM on a 19" monitor.... Just like a pilot who has a well programmed HOTAS setup will have an advantage over someone just using a stick all things being equal by virtue of his greater control over his plane. Due to the different levels of skill though having a hi tech rig alone wont make you an ace neccessarily. I use the mouse pan on my X45... before that I had to use padlock..but I had to set padlock with my keyboard..or make trade offs on controls I deemed more important...which meant I had to take my hand off of something to hit the keyboard.... which gives my functionality a hit. In FR servers where SA is almost as important as skill, the ability to scan for and track targets seamlessly and as efficiently as possible is extremely important. I noticed that before I got my mousepan I really didnt enjoy FR servers... now I can go in there anmd at least compete...even if I do get my stick handed to me more often than not. I intend to get TIR2 as the final piece in my cockpit..... for me immersion is the key. Without it Im just playing a game.

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BigDukeSixx
02-23-2004, 04:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
ENHHHH wrong answer

you look around with trackIR

i look around with my mouse

what happens if i can track a plane better than you can ?

does that prove that the mouse is better than TrackIR ? no of course it wouldnt

all it would prove is THAT YOU HAVE TO USE WHAT YOU HAVE WELL

skill doesn't come in a box old timer<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Listen, dimwit, I'm talking about what's realistic and what's not. Not what method is more effective, although I think TIR IS better.

FFS, how any real pilot look around with a mouse? I never said skill came in a box, either!
--

BM357_TinMan
02-23-2004, 08:09 AM
Track IR is NOT an advantage if you are proficient with the mouse. Actually I think the mouse is slightly better.

BUT BIG BUT

Track IR adds a level of imersion that can not be matched any other way and it gives you your left hand for a throttle with buttons on it.

So, it is SLIGHTLY more profiecent to track with the mouse, but that little loss in profiecency is made up for in immersion and free left hand.

{edit - when I used mouse, I had the throttle assigned to the scroll wheel and flaps to the right click/left click buttons - in response to a question: "how do you guys that use the mouse operate the throttle" or something to that affect}

$.02

BM357_TinMan
xo BM357 VFG
www.bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com)

[This message was edited by BM357_TinMan on Mon February 23 2004 at 07:22 AM.]

JG5_UnKle
02-23-2004, 08:37 AM
TrackIR is a big advantage....

It lets you view things that other players can't http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/victoria.stevens/jg5_logo.jpg

BaldieJr
02-23-2004, 08:51 AM
This thread is funny.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

yarbles67
02-23-2004, 08:58 AM
A nicely tuned TiR setup is incredible and IMHO beats mouse panning wihout question. The analogy I always use is that you can fly the game with keyboard but why do that when you can use a joystick. Same thing with TiR vs mouse pan or hat switch. Advantage - it's relative and you're making much ado about nothing. What's more important is immersion and the fun factor. Seems more logical to scan your flying space with slight movements of your head instead of your thumb. I never considered getting TiR because I thought it would give me a one up in full real servers. I got it because I was sick of hat switches and mouse panning. I now can use my hat switches for other functions like zoom control. It's been said a million times before but I'll say it again. Once you fly with TiR you really can't fly any other way and enjoy the experience. Most of the people that have issues with TiR being choppy, twitchy or just plain sucky is due to the fact they didn't have a tight setup. I for one had to play around with my setup for about week. Once I got it, man is smooth panning just like a mouse with only a few degrees of head movement. It's sweet. You won't find too many folks that didn't like the experience or decided to return it I bet.

BigDukeSixx
02-23-2004, 09:51 AM
Great post, you hit the nail on the head with every point you made.

WUAF_Badsight
02-23-2004, 03:03 PM
ok whos the dimwit ? you are BigDukeSixx

you are the dimwit

care for some english lessons ? cause you need them & debating experience , i.e. how to reply to a point without sounding like a dummie

first i stated : .....

"it comes down to what your used to & how well you use what you have"

to which you replied like a dumba$$ : .......

"No, you are talking rubbish, son! TIR in the most realistic option we have. Snap view, mouse look and PL don't come close to TIR. That's a fact!'

err hello mr BigDukeSixx dimwit , did i even mention which was more realistic ?

no in your TrackIR fanboy way you got upset with TrackIR being discredited &m immediatly jumped up & down with a personall attack

next i stated : .......

"what happens if i can track a plane better than you can ?

does that prove that the mouse is better than TrackIR ? no of course it wouldnt"

& again a stupid reply from BigDukeSixx dumba$$

"Listen, dimwit, I'm talking about what's realistic and what's not. Not what method is more effective, although I think TIR IS better."

jeez again with the tangent point

who brought up what was more realistic ??? YOU DID YOU DUMMIE

now im at HL & UBI a lot

come meet me there so i can shoot your TrackIR fanboy butt outta the sky

carguy_
02-23-2004, 03:09 PM
Uuum,yeah it really looks like he was a dimwit,heheheh.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

JG53_Gutted
02-23-2004, 05:08 PM
i've been using the hatswitch for sims since its inception, its almost second nature for me now.

and i do just fine on full real and i don't feel handicapped at all.

----------------------------------------------
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http://home.sw.rr.com/gutted/gutted_jg53.gif


My IL2 movies:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Legend (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Videos/index-2.html) (39mb)
<LI>SuperBeast (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/oberstguncam/Movies/SuperBeast.wmv) (30.6mb)
[/list]

TooCooL34
02-23-2004, 05:19 PM
A matter of preference.
Let's cool down. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif



=815=TooCooL34 in =815=Squad, South Korea

--Quick Spec--
WinXP Pro, AthlonXP 3200+, 1024DDR, FX5900XT 128MB, two SW pr2, TIR2

ASH at S-MART
02-23-2004, 05:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
but i think it may give a gigantic advantage to fullreal pilots so whats the scoop?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>To answer that question you would first have to define what an advantage is..

Each view system has it's good and bad points.. it is really a personal preference.. Some love using the Mouse.. But some have a mouse joys stick build into their throttles..

To date no one has proved to me that TrackIR has an advantage over any other view system except for none view system related things.. for example.. Do you consider the fact that TrackIR frees up your thumb to do other things an advantage? Some do, Some don't..

About the only thing TrackIR does do for you is immerse you into the sim more.. In that it is more intuitive to move your head than your thumb to change your view.

ASH at S-MART
http://www.thecobrasnose.com/images4/brucecampbellSMart.jpg

Bull_Pup
02-23-2004, 05:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_Pup:
Flying sims without trackIR is an unnatural experience.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats rubbish

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, that's not rubbish. It's opinion.

Learn the difference.

BM357_Raven
02-23-2004, 06:00 PM
Here's another way of putting it:

If it broke then it would be a real bumber....having to wait the week or so for a replacement...

My Standard Must-Have Gear:

- good quality stick (FFB2)
- rudder pedals (I have CH)
- separate throttle periph. w/buttons (I have CH)
- TrackIR

If anyone of these stopped working I would be it would suc...

Blazing Magnums 357th VFG
bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash_intro.html) | Roster (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/bm357_rosters.asp) | Flash Cartoon (http://bm357.com/NEW_BM357/raven_in_plane9p.html) | BroDawg (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/flash-intro/tinman3.html) | QuickTime Video (http://www.bm357.com/NEW_BM357/Downloads_Public/bm357_transmission.zip)
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T_O_A_D
02-23-2004, 07:16 PM
Well what ever you have mastered, and is comfortable for you is good, and I will not nock any of the means you use. I've been owned by many of the hat and mouse user. I've got one in the squad, that I and the rest can do nothing with 1v1 and he uses the Hat.

Using the Hat , the mouse or TIR are all ways of controling your views with your own Body parts. Its the pilot not the machine doing the work.

Padlock is an advantage over all three if mastered. Since the game is makeing you as sharp as the AI on SA.

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
131st_Toad's Squad link (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
2.11 drivers (http://home.mchsi.com/~131st-vfw/NaturalPoint_trackIR_2_11.exe)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

[This message was edited by T_O_A_D on Tue February 24 2004 at 03:39 AM.]

BigDukeSixx
02-24-2004, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by Bull_Pup:
Flying sims without trackIR is an unnatural experience.

Then you coughed up this in reply:

"thats rubbish"

I countered that, then you when off on one. You're the dimwit!

WUAF_Badsight
02-24-2004, 12:58 AM
yea its rubbish

i have a total feel of what is level & where the horizon is using my mouse

its not totally un-natural AT ALL you TOOL

i wish i could highlight TOOL to be even bigger *sigh*

[This message was edited by WUAF_Badsight on Tue February 24 2004 at 12:31 AM.]

yarbles67
02-24-2004, 05:47 AM
I hate to state the obvious but the only way to ever really know if one method is better than another is to .... try both methods. The irony is that most folks that use TiR have used mouse pan and/or hat switch but decided in the end, TiR was money. For those folks that only know hat switch/mouse pan and play many hours of the flight sim per week really should invest and get one. At the end of the day, you'll be a convert (well, at least 99.9% of you). Advantage - I don't know but it just seems more natural and easier to maintain SA by moving your head than using your thumb. I'll say this. I know a guy (heya Reload!) that is a master of both methods. We fly together alot and for the longest time he used a stick-mouse ball combo. He was completely comfortable with that setup and can easily school me and many others in the skies eventhough I had TiR. He finally broke down and got one not because he thought it would improve his made skillz but the experience. I would comment on TS how nice it was to smoothly track ground targets during JABO missions or how nice it was to smoothly track air cons during a furball. Eventually, he broke down and ended up getting one and admits it would be hard to go back to the old ways.

AWL_Spinner
02-24-2004, 06:01 AM
Well put.

If it really wasn't that good, why do only 1% of TrackIR users ever go back to flying without it? It's not as if you'd loose much money flogging it on Ebay if it didn't work out for you.

Joysticks? Pah, they'll never catch on, I think I'll stick with my keyboard.

http://www.alliedwingedlegion.com/members/signatures/spinner_sig.jpg

TgD Thunderbolt56
02-24-2004, 06:39 AM
To answer the question at the beginning of this thread (which both TOAD and Raven have already done quite well), I would say that your success in FR, arcade or horseshoes for that matter will come down to what is comfortable for you but even moreso HOW MUCH YOU PRACTICE.

Regardless of the environment you fly in, if you want to be good you must practice effectively and apply what you learn...period.



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

BigDukeSixx
02-24-2004, 11:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
yea its rubbish

i have a total feel of what is level & where the horizon is using my mouse

its not totally un-natural AT ALL you __TOOL__

i wish i could highlight _TOOL_ to be even bigger *sigh*

[This message was edited by WUAF_Badsight on Tue February 24 2004 at 12:31 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah right, looking around the CP with your wittle finggies is natural!

tir is the most realistic method we have to choose from. You're just going to have to accept it!

adlabs6
02-24-2004, 12:49 PM
So much talk of "realism"... arg. Of course TIR is most realistic, as we move our heads to look around in real life! This is the same argument as whether moving a joystick to fly the plane is more realistic if moved with your hands, or your head! Obviously.

Realism has nothing to do with personal preference though. When I saw I prefer the hat, its because of effectiveness, NOT realism.

Advantage? TIR is an advantage if properly learned. But no more so than the mouse or hat that has been learned equally as well. Skill with your chosen tool (just like skill with your chosen plane) is the REAL advantage here, this is something which cannot be purchased.

In anycase, being great at tracking a plane with any tracking system is meaningless if the pilot makes a mistake in the heat of battle. Then he just tracks bullets filling his plane.

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/sigUBI.GIF
My FB/FS2004 Pages (http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/) | IL2skins (http://www.il2skins.com) | OMEGASQUADRON (http://777avg.com/omegasquad/)

TgD Thunderbolt56
02-24-2004, 12:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by adlabs6:


In anycase, being great at tracking a plane with any tracking system is meaningless if the pilot makes a mistake in the heat of battle. Then he just tracks bullets filling his plane.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SOooo...that's been my problem the whole time. DOH!



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

Bull_Pup
02-24-2004, 07:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
yea its rubbish

i have a total feel of what is level & where the horizon is using my mouse

its not totally un-natural AT ALL you __TOOL__

i wish i could highlight _TOOL_ to be even bigger *sigh*

[This message was edited by WUAF_Badsight on Tue February 24 2004 at 12:31 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do you resort to insults?

It's the first sign of a limited intelligence, or immaturity.

Your post's show every symptom.

My opinion is my opinion. It's not rubbish, any more than your opinion.

You show little respect to others. Most people learn the nescessary skills in pre-school, so I have to assume youre disrespectful by choice.

Slammin_
02-24-2004, 08:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
Just set your deadzone a bit bigger an you don't have to sit so still when in the center view. You can also use your stick profiler to center view and when on the bandit hold it so your view is locked forward. and you then can put all the body english you want ito your advisary http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Have you checked your http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102
http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st-vfw/NaturalPoint_trackIR_2_11.exe
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe due to my setup here, but the bigger I set my deadzone, the less 'range' TrackIR has, thus requiring more head movement to move my view.

I may be too far away from the sensor I think and will do some more experimenting.

Slammin_
02-24-2004, 08:14 PM
Bull_Pup, you are very correct in what you are observing. I really did have much respect, as a newb to the forum for both Baldi and Badsight. Both seem to be of the same mold, or age perhaps, though.

In any case, and withstanding the BS messages I get from this type on HL, I will still pretend to have some amount of maturity in hopes of helpong them grow. UP.

They cannot control me!

T_O_A_D
02-24-2004, 08:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Maybe due to my setup here, but the bigger I set my deadzone, the less 'range' TrackIR has, thus requiring more head movement to move my view.

I may be too far away from the sensor I think and will do some more experimenting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With my setup explained in my sig links I can easily set 4 foot or more from sensor with no ill effect short having to hit recenter , once I'm settled. Keep fiddling you'll get it.

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
131st_Toad's Squad link (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
2.11 drivers (http://home.mchsi.com/~131st-vfw/NaturalPoint_trackIR_2_11.exe)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

AFJ_Locust
02-24-2004, 08:25 PM
Red look what u started http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

Slammin_
02-24-2004, 08:33 PM
You know those headbands that chicks wear to hold their hair? They look like a horse shoe. Well, that's what I'm using now. My wife used to (I have it now:-) ) this snake skin head band that I put 6 of the reflective dots on. It does work really well, and I am able to set my deadzone a notch smaller now, but still, I have a hard time finding a really good sweetspot for FB, though it is totally perfect when playing Lomac of F4.

I'm pretty sure it is mostly just the nature of the beast with FB though. I get SO into it that I bet I could actually fall out of my chair trying to evade getting shot down, and of course, this is not a good posture with TrackIR.

TrackIR does add immersion, and sometimes too much I guess.

T_O_A_D
02-24-2004, 09:11 PM
hehehe yep it does.

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
131st_Toad's Squad link (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
2.11 drivers (http://home.mchsi.com/~131st-vfw/NaturalPoint_trackIR_2_11.exe)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
02-24-2004, 09:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigDukeSixx:
Yeah right, looking around the CP with your wittle finggies is natural!

tir is the most realistic method we have to choose from. You're just going to have to accept it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you are one major fricken moron

WHERE did i say it wasnt realistic you dumba$$

do you have problems understanding & following points made in discussions ? , Y E S

as a TrackIR fanboy you had to jump in with your dumb ******ed replys to me without even taking in the point i made

YOU MORON

i retorted that using the mouse wasnt un-naturel , not that using TrackIR wasnt very realistic

WHY ? because you can track PERFECTLY WITH IT WITH FULL SA & TOTAL UNDERSTANDING OF YOUR PLANES ATTITUDE

WUAF_Badsight
02-24-2004, 09:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_Pup:

My opinion is my opinion. It's not rubbish,.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OH YEA IT WAS
.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I have to assume youre disrespectful by choice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

when you say something thats ******ed what do you expect ?

a pat on the back in agreement ?

you is wrong ..... dont cry about it to me

RedDeth
02-24-2004, 10:21 PM
"you are one major fricken moron

WHERE did i say it wasnt realistic you dumba$$

do you have problems understanding & following points made in discussions ? , Y E S

as a TrackIR fanboy you had to jump in with your dumb ******ed replys to me without even taking in the point i made

YOU MORON"



we need a moderator in here.see above. these last posts are direct slander and insults.

totally against ubi forum rules.

i thought if we posted such stuff we got banned??????????? i guess we can post whatever we feel

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of Now 12 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying. http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
02-24-2004, 10:43 PM
the guy keeps posting back at me about points i DIDNT even bring up

hes annoying .... what can i say ?

go look at 99.999999999% of posts that i make ....... slander free

Bull_Pup
02-25-2004, 05:30 AM
the .0000000001% seems to represent you well.

carguy_
02-25-2004, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_Pup:
the .0000000001% seems to represent you well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bullseye!http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

BigDukeSixx
02-25-2004, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
the guy keeps posting back at me about points i DIDNT even bring up

hes annoying .... what can i say ?

go look at 99.999999999% of posts that i make ....... slander free<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the point I'm calling you out on:

quote:Originally posted by Bull_Pup:
Flying sims without trackIR is an unnatural experience.

To which you replied:

"thats rubbish"

There then ensued a exchange on what was realistic and what wasn't. Unable to win the point you went off on a tangent, and waffled on about effectiveness. The gentleman was talking about what is natural and realistic. He stated his view in the above quote and you labeled it 'rubbish'!

Well, he is right and you are wrong! Deal with it, and stop moaning just because you've been busted!

Sorry for calling you a dimwit. I clearly overstated your ability to think.

99th Obsidian
02-25-2004, 11:46 AM
Alllllrighty then... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I've had my TIR2 since November when I got it for $99 with a LOMAC coupon. At first I didn't like it but now I would rather give up my FFB stick than loose my TrackIR2. It actually makes you WANT to fly FR since the canopy frame helps you maintain SA. I found it works better for me in FB than in LOMAC. Only thing I wish is that there was some way of "ducking" so you could maintain visual when your target is obscured by cockpit framing. If you've seen video of real pilots in ACM or formation flying, you'll see them duck and weave their heads to look around a obscuring canopy frame or to block the sun. Don't know how that could be implemented, perhaps mapping a 4-8 inch change of head position to the hat on your stick? One thing that does work well in LOMAC with TIR2 is the variable zoom which I have mapped to the hat on my stick. In FB I'm limited to wide, medium, and gunsight FOV's. Buy one and try it out for a month or so. Natural Point extended my trial period past 30 days so I could see if the LOMAC patch improved my TIR2 experience. It did and now I won't fly on or offline without it.

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/groups/g_12115355/Red+Tail+Art/Obsidian99thSig.jpg?bcXH8OABhoPLkUwv

Bull_Pup
02-25-2004, 04:13 PM
The ability to duck or lean slightly would be awesome, imo.

I would love to be able to lean even a few inch's to the side for a better view of the ground or around cockpit armor.

BigDukeSixx
02-25-2004, 04:34 PM
I agree, it would add a great deal to the realism.

ASH at S-MART
02-25-2004, 05:20 PM
So.. we all agree than.. TrackIR has NO ADVANTAGE over the other view systems... In that to date NO ONE has given ONE EXAMPLE of it's advantage.. other than thier *feelings* or the fact that it frees up your HAND/THUMB to do *other* things...

Therefore we all agree that TrackIR has NO ADVANTAGE and due to your head making it move just ADDS MORE REALISM and thus MORE IMERSION..

Does that sum it up pretty good? Or do ONE of you guys think you have an example of a TrackIR advantage? At which point I KNOW I could give you an example of a TrackIR DIS-ADVANTAGE that *other* view systems have OVER TrackIR..

In short.. They all have thier GOOD and BAD points.. Therefore it is up to YOU to CHOOSE the OPTION you and your wallet like BEST and stop whinning about it!!

ASH at S-MART
http://www.thecobrasnose.com/images4/brucecampbellSMart.jpg

Bull_Pup
02-25-2004, 06:18 PM
The following thread has a .trk posted by A.Fokker which shows the virtue's of TrackIR2.

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=007498

Imo it is evidence that trackIR is an advantage for most people. I believe only people who MASTER a hat switch can achieve similar results. I believe the average person will achieve better results using a well setup tir setup, while enjoying a more natural, realistic simulation experience.

Slammin_
02-25-2004, 08:52 PM
I guess I'm one that has mastered the hat switch for view then. Granted I have an extremely ergonomic HOTAS, so that might account for it.

I do love TrackIR though I hardly ever use it with FB because I can't be still enough! I'm still working on that though, because TrackIR does feel more natural and definitely adds immersion, but my hit ratio does go south with it since I cannot control my body movement when in the heat of battle, and TrackIR absolutely requires that.

I wouldn't call TrackIR a competitive advantage, even if mastered. I'm convinced anyone with a good setup can be just as effective without it but it really is the best thing to happen to flight sims since the joystick, no doubt.

I'm sticking with it.

WUAF_Badsight
02-25-2004, 09:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigDukeSixx:
and stop moaning just because you've been busted! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

busted about what ?

& whose the one moaning here

YOU brought up realisim

the statement that playing without TrackIR is totally unatural is TOTAL CRAP

the only thing that can make using TrackIR more natural feeling is if you are really useless at tracking a dot using hand eye co-ordination

excuse me but your lack of motor skills is not my problem & dont infer that other people suck at it as much as you seem to

using TrackIR is more realistic but not using it isnt more Un-Natural

TrackIR is just another way of viewing that frees up a hand

it isnt better or worse but gives more freedom to move

if you were not such a fanboy you wouldnt get so blinded by posts about mouse view & get on your high horse with the dimwit remarks you moron

think B4 you reply then you might realise what it is your replying too

WUAF_Badsight
02-25-2004, 09:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_Pup:

Without trackir you must consciously scan the world around you as an active, unnatural thought process. your brain must constantly tell your thumb to move the hatswitch, mouse.

Flying sims without trackIR is an unnatural experience.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THATS TOTAL CRAP

scanning your enviroment using whatever view control isnt hard AT ALL for people who dont have crap motor co-ordination

i can look & identify without thinking about my mouse AT ALL , soley concentrating on the task at hand

Bull_pup thinks everyone is in the same "loser skills" boat as he is

ENNNHH wrong

Bull_Pup
02-25-2004, 09:21 PM
Your sole purpose here is to troll it appears.

You are either very immature or perhaps just plain ignorant and inconsiderate?

Which is it? I speculate immature. Havent spent enough time in the real world to get your azz knocked down. Cockyness of youth I presume. Another internet badass.

I place you at around 11yrs old. Or perhaps youre just a lonely old coot. One thing for sure, your people skills lack.

Oh well, doesnt matter. Carry on.

WUAF_Badsight
02-25-2004, 09:28 PM
your statement of mouse control being totally un-natural is wrong

dont cry about being pulled up about it

ASH at S-MART
02-25-2004, 09:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_Pup:
Imo it is evidence that trackIR is an advantage for most people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You said IMO.. Yet, like so many, did not actually state what it is that gives TrackIR an advantage. I and most other agree that it provides a more natural and realistic simulation experance.. But *what* exactally is the ADVANTAGE? I personaly can only think of one.. it frees up your thumb and or hand (depending on what you use now) to do other things.. But *what* in words (ie not just IMO) is *IT* that gives you an advantage.. I want you to say it.. Because for EVERY ONE THING you can list.. IF ANY I know I can LIST just as many things it does that is not as good as the others.. That is to say, EACH system.. HAT,KB,MOUSE,TrackIR,etc has GOOD points and BAD points RELITIVE to each other.. But IMHO none of the provide a real BIG advantage over the other as long as you invest some time in using them.. I can say that with confidence.. In that Im an old timer.. I have seen the evelotion of VIEW SELECTION CONTORLS from the early days when all we had was F1 (forward) F2(right) F3(back) F4(left). And the early HAT with only 4, then later 8 settings.. Then the mouse, Then the mouse JS on some sticks.. etc. They all worked fine.. and when a new way came out, it was hard to learn it.. But JUST BECAUSE something is NEW and DIFFERENT and you didnt take the time to learn it does not mean it has an advantage!! Some people here do very well using the MOUSE.. I could never really get good at it.. But that is just me!!

ASH at S-MART
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BigDukeSixx
02-26-2004, 12:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
your statement of mouse control being totally un-natural is wrong

dont cry about being pulled up about it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't talk rubbish, boy. Put a real pilot in a real cockpit and tell him he has to move his head using a mouse, and see what he says!

Having your left hand on a mouse and not the throttle in unrealistic. Unrealistic = unnatural! How many real WWII pilots didn't use their free hands to control throttle.

Put a first time simmer in front of a pc and give them the option of mouse or TIR and see which one they choose. Then ask them which one feels more natural.

You need a lesson in logic, son!

Now I don't normally stop talking to someone in mid sentence, but I your case I'll m

WUAF_Badsight
02-26-2004, 02:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigDukeSixx:
Don't talk rubbish, boy. Put a real pilot in a real cockpit and tell him he has to move his head using a mouse, and see what he says!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

again with the realistic crap BigDuke*******

who brought it up , YOU DID you dummie

un_natural as in not as good ?

un_natural as in not as effective ?

un_natural as in not as easy to use ?

mouse vision is none of these

TrackIR is not more effective than a Mouse , just different

but you try telling me that using a mouse to look around doesnt come naturally then your talking outta your a$$

i dont think when i want to look around in FB with my mouse , i just do it

its perfectly natural

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How many real WWII pilots didn't use their free hands to control throttle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

last time i looked this was a COMPUTER GAME

moron

ASH at S-MART
02-26-2004, 08:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
TrackIR is not more effective than a Mouse , just different
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That sums it up pretty well.. TrackIR is more *natural* more *intuitave* and more *realistic* but.. That does not mean it has an ADVANTAGE or is more EFFECTIVE..

Some people are real GOOD and comfortable with the MOUSE.. And *other* can NOT walk, talk and chew bubble gum at the same time! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The game has options because some people... FOR WHAT EVER REASON dont like the one size fits all.. Thus the MOUSE option!! For example.. Some folks have carpel tunnel.. and manipulating the HAT is painful.. Thus.. If they want to play they use one of the other methods!! They all have thier GOOD and BAD points.. To be GOOD at anything you have to invest time in it.

ASH at S-MART
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ViktorViktor
02-26-2004, 02:01 PM
I would say that for us human beings, flying in itself is an unnatural act (in his natural state, man is not a flying mammal). If this is so, then sitting down in front of a pc and playing a simulation of this unnatural act is doubly unnatural.

Badsight and Ash_smart have good points, in my opinion.

But what do I know, I'm just here to have some fun and blow off steam.

BigDukeSixx
02-26-2004, 02:27 PM
Turning your head to look around is natural. Doesn't matter if you're in a space ship, a car, or a aircraft.

The lad has convinced himself mouselook in natural, probably because he has been playing FPS for years, and there was no real transition to go though.

Different matter altogether for the first time simmer. The human neck is the product of natural evolution, and the pc mouse isn't. QED

ASH at S-MART
02-26-2004, 04:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigDukeSixx:
Turning your head to look around is natural. Doesn't matter if you're in a space ship, a car, or a aircraft.

The lad has convinced himself mouselook in natural, probably because he has been playing FPS for years, and there was no real transition to go though.

Different matter altogether for the first time simmer. The human neck is the product of natural evolution, and the pc mouse isn't. QED<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, as far as I can tell nobody is saying it isnt natural.. The topic at hand weather or not TrackIR has an ADVANTAGE over the others systems... So far no one has shown me one example of it having an advantage.. Each system KB,HAT,MOUSE,TrackIR,etc has good and bad points.. but none have a big advantage over the other.. And inexperance with one is not an advantage.. it is just inexperance.

ASH at S-MART
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BigDukeSixx
02-26-2004, 04:10 PM
I know what the topic is, but the lad made the claim that a statement made by another member was 'rubbish' I doing that he broadened the debate.

ASH at S-MART
02-26-2004, 04:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigDukeSixx:
I know what the topic is, but the lad made the claim that a statement made by another member was 'rubbish' I doing that he broadened the debate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah, went back and looked at that rubbish statement.. Looks like a case of both of you took what was being said too literal.. As another member pointed out.. Flying in and of itself is UNNATURAL.. so.. The only question is where you draw the line.. To me TrackIR is more NATURAL in that you use your head to chage what your looking at.. But it is still not exactally NATURAL.. In that your view does not change when you move your eyes.. And you dont have to look over your shoulder to look over your shoulder in the game.. So, it is UNNATURAL in that sense.. As unnatural as using a MOUSE.

ASH at S-MART
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nickdanger3
02-26-2004, 05:24 PM
Let's try a different tack....

With all of the things to keep track of (no pun intended) in this game, using an intuitive viewing system might free up brain cells (forget about your fingers) so that you can learn situational awareness faster and more effectively.

I think that TrackIR MUST help in this regard...I'm ordering mine soon. CAn you learn SA with other methods? Of course, but I think that TrackIR is probably just a lot easier and let's you spend more time learning other skills.

ASH at S-MART
02-26-2004, 05:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nickdanger3:
Let's try a different tack....

With all of the things to keep track of (no pun intended) in this game, using an intuitive viewing system might free up brain cells (forget about your fingers) so that you can learn situational awareness faster and more effectively.

I think that TrackIR MUST help in this regard...I'm ordering mine soon. CAn you learn SA with other methods? Of course, but I think that TrackIR is probably just a lot easier and let's you spend more time learning other skills.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Emmmm free up brain cells? Your brain has to tell your fingers and neck to move.. So.. I dont buy it.. And even if I did.. It is not what I would call an ADVANTAGE.. So the question still stands.. Other than it frees up a hand or thumb to do other things.. what is the ADVANTAGE of TrackIR?

ASH at S-MART
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WUAF_Badsight
02-26-2004, 09:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigDukeSixx:

The lad has convinced himself mouselook in natural, probably because he has been playing FPS for years, and there was no real transition to go though.

Different matter altogether for the first time simmer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

never played a FPS yet

tring to get some left moving movement by shifting your hand left is , & i quote "totally unatural"

thats rubbish ...... totally

hes wrong

using ANY gaming appliance ONLY becomes natural ONCE your used to it

if he sucks at using hand - eye co-ordination devices he should say so instead of inferring every other person will also be equally crap at it

i also will say that TrackIR adds immersion .... i have NEVER said otherwise

but say one word out of place about TrackIR ALLEGED dominance & you get 3-brain-cell morons jumping up & down

now what if a first time simmer only had a mouse aye BigDukeDumba$$ ?

he would say thats the way the game plays

he would say that other ways feel wrong compared to how he learnt to play that particular game

did your 3-brain-cells not get overloaded with that concept ?

moron

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigDukeA$$:
The human neck is the product of natural evolution <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yet ANOTHER thing that you cant prove

MORE CONJECTION

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE EYEBALL YOU MORON

WUAF_Badsight
02-26-2004, 09:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nickdanger3:
CAn you learn SA with other methods? Of course, but I think that TrackIR is probably just a lot easier and let's you spend more time learning other skills.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no

trackIR takes time to get used to

some just give up

its main benefit isnt the fact that its more effective

its main benefit is that you have a free hand for other things

dont delude yourself , getting your TrackIR set up correctly takes fiddling & then being able to use it well takes pratice

BigDukeSixx
02-27-2004, 12:45 AM
It took me 5 mins to set up, and no time to get used to.

WUAF_Badsight
02-27-2004, 02:25 AM
that still doesnt explain how the eyeball came into existance

ASH at S-MART
02-27-2004, 09:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigDukeSixx:
It took me 5 mins to set up, and no time to get used to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>For every ONE person I see say that about TrackIR I can find THREEE that say just the oposite... Funny how people are DIFFERENT like that.. One size does not fit all.. On that note for SOME the MOUSE is easy to set up, and no time to get used to.

ASH at S-MART
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BigDukeSixx
02-27-2004, 10:17 AM
The problem with tir is that, unlike a joystick (or a mouse) which you just bump on the desk and use, placement is everything. Some people just put it in the wrong place, then they get all in a tizzy when it either won't work reliably or they can't get used to it.

I've done some troubleshooting for people only to find the 'trouble' is that they have a huge light source like 100 watt bulb or the frigging sun shinning right into the sensor. Either that, or they think they can put it 20 ft any and it will still work!

Once the placement is right, the only people who struggle are the ones who can't keep their bodies still. The first thing they teach you in real flying is to keep your body still, btw.

[This message was edited by BigDukeSixx on Fri February 27 2004 at 09:48 AM.]

ASH at S-MART
02-27-2004, 10:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigDukeSixx:
The problem with tir is that, unlike a joystick (or a mouse) which you just bump on the desk and use, placement is everything. Some people just put it in the wrong place, then they get all in a tizzy which it either won't work reliably or they can't get used to it.

I've done some troubleshooting for people only to find the 'trouble' is that they have a huge light source like 100 watt bulb or the frigging sun shinning right into the sensor. Either that, or they think they can put it 20 ft any and it will still work!

Once the placement is right, the only people who struggle are the ones who can't keep their bodies still. The first thing they teach you in real flying is to keep your body still, btw.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just further proof that people are different.. Some people with carpil tunnel dont like the HAT because of the pain... Some people who are left handed find the MOUSE very useful.. Etc.. Etc.. Etc.. One size does not fit all.. If it did we wouldnt have options in the fist place.

ASH at S-MART
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BigDukeSixx
02-27-2004, 02:02 PM
No, one size doesn't fit all. but the most realistic and immersive way to control the view of this sim is by using TIR.

Using any other method just takes you further away from reality.
--

ASH at S-MART
02-27-2004, 03:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigDukeSixx:
No, one size doesn't fit all. but the most realistic and immersive way to control the view of this sim is by using TIR.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>MOST.. I agree.. But far from realistic.. FAR!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigDukeSixx:
Using any other method just takes you further away from reality.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>To you... but maybe not to others.. Eitherway, it is NOT an ADVANTAGE over other methods

ASH at S-MART
http://www.thecobrasnose.com/images4/brucecampbellSMart.jpg

Bull_Pup
02-27-2004, 04:34 PM
Y'all have a good weekend!

I have to bow out of the conversation for now.

I'm heading out the door to a local club for the night.

I just got Battle over Europe in the mail. Cant wait to start a campaign. Hopefully I'll find time tommorow.