PDA

View Full Version : AI gunners(B-17)?? once and for all?



AtomicRunt
02-26-2004, 09:09 AM
OK heard alot about the ability of the ai gunners, but for the the most part when I fly the B-17 on-line 95% attack it from the 6 o'clock position? isn't that one of the worst places to attack? From what I hear you should try a high or low deflection shot from the 3-5o'clock/7-9o'clock positions. In either a 30-45 degree dive/climb?

Salute!
AB AtomicRunt
http://www.execulink.com/~jesten/LogoABS.jpg

AtomicRunt
02-26-2004, 09:09 AM
OK heard alot about the ability of the ai gunners, but for the the most part when I fly the B-17 on-line 95% attack it from the 6 o'clock position? isn't that one of the worst places to attack? From what I hear you should try a high or low deflection shot from the 3-5o'clock/7-9o'clock positions. In either a 30-45 degree dive/climb?

Salute!
AB AtomicRunt
http://www.execulink.com/~jesten/LogoABS.jpg

gates123
02-26-2004, 09:32 AM
I was coming down in a 90 degree angle on top of a tb-3 the other night. My speed was well over 600kph and right as I opened up on the cockpit I got sniped from about 300m or so from the first burst of the ai. I mean what do I have to do not to get sniped! I attack at extrememly high speed from extreme angles and get pk'd or greased in one pass, never fails.

http://gr.fipu.krasnoyarsk.edu/camms/archive/ww2_fighters/0112/pics/0112_2_1.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
02-26-2004, 09:45 AM
Tb-3 has no Guns on the underside mate. Different strategy for different aircraft. Know your enemy.

Bull-Dog.
02-26-2004, 09:48 AM
Ive tried all angles and speeds nearly always end up with my engine taken out.
If I fly close without attacking they take out my engine usually on the first shot.

I now stay away unless i can`t find anything else.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/bull_dog/images/3-picture.jpg?0.7185765628443178

Franzen
02-26-2004, 10:24 AM
I love attacking the B-17's, they're tough as nails. My favorite attack position is from about 5:30 a little low, not much. I know, it doesn't make sense but all the logical angles are suicide. Go figure http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Fritz

73GIAP_Milan
02-26-2004, 11:34 AM
Right...for as far as i've read this topic, you guys are ALL DEADMEAT attacking B17's from angles around it's 6...

use the Luftwaffe tactic exploited by the Fw190's on the B17's and B24's in fact, use'it on ALL bombers:

Overtake 'em about 700M above 'em fly past and ahead for about 2Km...make a shallow turn 180 degrees and attack the bombers HEAD-ON, aim for the engines and cockpit...
Afterwards, do NOT dive away but turn at the same height OUT of reach of the top and tailgunners and line up for another run...

i can whack 1 B17 PER run if my aim is right...
and it conserves ammo...if you manage to hit the cockpit in the first run..

try it..i think you all like it...it is 300% safer than attacking it's 6..

regards,

Der Tote Baron a.k.a. SK_Black_Knight....
______________________________
Sky Knights Squadron Leader

Rajvosa
02-26-2004, 11:40 AM
Baron

Don't waste your breath trying to explain the proper tactics to these guys! If they hadn't figured it out by now, I guess they never will. No matter how hard you try.

Regards,

Jasko

http://www.aftermathmedia.com/skreed/media/mss.jpg

73GIAP_Milan
02-26-2004, 11:57 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif if that is the case, then they are pretty lousy marksmen...

everyone should stick to his own favoured tactic..but imho it is pretty st000pid to go whack bombers from a 3-6 to 9-o clock position..that is simply ASKING to get shot up..
I made that mistake once and never do it again..

but i wish you guys happy hunting then http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

regards,

Der Tote Baron a.k.a. SK_Black_Knight....
______________________________
Sky Knights Squadron Leader

gates123
02-26-2004, 12:10 PM
Well since I only play online why would I want to expose my self to enemy fighters by continueing to hit a tb-3 from down below 1000m. Is a steep 600kmh 90degree 12 o'clock high dive not safe enough? Obviously not and until the ai is tuned I will continue to whine and kick until its fixed. Try sitting in a gunners seat and hit the pilot (or even the plane) with a closing speed of over 800kmh on your first burst, I bet you can't.

http://gr.fipu.krasnoyarsk.edu/camms/archive/ww2_fighters/0112/pics/0112_2_1.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

Zyzbot
02-26-2004, 12:22 PM
Did some interesting reading last night about testing jet tactics against bombers right after WWII. They tested P-80 fighters against B-29 bombers in simulated head on attacks with jets.

If I recall it correctly, they found that with the B-29 doing 230 mph and the P-80 doing 400 mph at 30,000 feet...they had to open fire at 1200 yards. This apparently gave them 2 seconds to fire and 2 seconds to evade collision.

They also found that the best way to evade was to dive instead of climb because the P-80 tended to "mush" in the pullup at that altitude.
They often passed just 15 to 20 feet under the nose of the B-29 when they dove. The B-29 pilots in the test found it particularly unnerving to watch!

They also concluded that head on attacks by jet fighters against higher speed jet bombers would require different weapons than the 50 caliber guns the P-80 was equipped with.

All of this stuff was photographed and filmed. Would be neat to see it if it still exists.

BS87
02-26-2004, 12:25 PM
The b17 and Pe8 gunners are a neccesary Evil. Real bombers survied (for the most part) because of escorts and the sheer numbers of them, in formation. How often do we see 10+ b17s in formation, with a wing of escorts? once in a blue moon. The b17 and Pe8 gunner's accuracy ticks me off to no end, because they *always* hit the engine or cockpit. I love it when they saw off my wings, because its so rare. BUT, i understand the NEED for gunners like this, because without them, these planes would NOT survive online, and would be slow, easy targets.

gates123
02-26-2004, 12:39 PM
It amazes me that people whine about climb rates in 190's that are 6kmh off or p-47 roll rates that dont mesh with some random 1945 test stat but its ok for non-historical ai bomber accuracy to chew through pilots going head-on with bombers at over 600kmh.

http://gr.fipu.krasnoyarsk.edu/camms/archive/ww2_fighters/0112/pics/0112_2_1.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

AtomicRunt
02-26-2004, 12:55 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rajvosa:
Baron

Don't waste your breath trying to explain the proper tactics to these guys! If they hadn't figured it out by now, I guess they never will. No matter how hard you try.

Regards,

Jasko

LMAO! Simply asked a couple questions and this is what ya get.Some guys were discussing dead-zones on the B-17 the other night while I was in a game,how true I have no idea. Hence the reason I asked. your post does and says nothing.
Baron, and the rest of you..thx for your insight.

Salute!
AB AtomicRunt
http://www.execulink.com/~jesten/LogoABS.jpg

Korolov
02-26-2004, 01:05 PM
Well, like Baron said, head-on attacks are the best. The problem online is that many bomber pilots will take evasive action rather than risk you getting a perfect shot on them.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

PBNA-Boosher
02-26-2004, 01:12 PM
"Attacking a formation of B-17's is like a controlled suicide."

-German Ace, 1944

Basically, he's correct, but I find that if you're going at least 350 kph faster than the B-17, it's tougher for the gunners to hit you. Everyone here is right, aim for the nose, for the nose is where the bombardier is, the navigator, the pilot, the top gunner, and the copilot are all located, kill them all on the first pass and there's nothing else to worry about! If you don't succeed in the first pass, pull an immelman and then dive down and gain speed 350 kph above the bomber's speed, and then attack the bomber from underneath, trying to hit the bomb bay doors. I find these tactics get me killed least often.

BfHeFwMe
02-26-2004, 02:31 PM
My be proper tactics, but historical, nope. Not much gun film recorded with head on attacks, but tons with rear aspect runs. The data posted here with the rates and success also proves historically these types of attacks were the minority. Radar and GCI just wasn't that good, and in game your setting it up so you aren't dealing with intelligent escorts. Doubt you'd find much success with manned fighters about.

Brotrob
02-26-2004, 03:11 PM
Everyone has to agree that the phenomenal AI-gunner-accuracy is just for game-balance.

And thats why it sucks so much, its getting on the nerves being PKed on 800 km/h passes on the first shot.

Just take a Fighter against an B17, set difficulty to unvulnerable, and look at an external view how the gunners shoot. Its amazing, first they hit you, and then they correct their aim and shoot at some point next to you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Should be in the reversed order .

At hig closing speed of Fighters, the Gunners in Bombers were nat able to follow them and could do nothing but spray and pray in RL.

And of course, I know that everyone will answer " attack from 12 o'clock", but that was by far not the only position from what LW attaced. Ca 12 % of the attacs were made fom the front.

Me 263 attaced fom the low 6 usually, and the Sturmstaffeln with their MK108 equipped Fw 190 attaced from the 6 . And they had VERY few losses from the Bomber gunners ( escort killed them like turkeys)


But since we never will see large Formations ( or at least me not with my crappy PC ) its not that bad as it would be in a scenario you found in EAW, with 100+ planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

73GIAP_Milan
02-26-2004, 04:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>My be proper tactics, but historical, nope. Not much gun film recorded with head on attacks, but tons with rear aspect runs. The data posted here with the rates and success also proves historically these types of attacks were the minority. Radar and GCI just wasn't that good, and in game your setting it up so you aren't dealing with intelligent escorts. Doubt you'd find much success with manned fighters about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You failed to notice that on every wwII guncam film showing a bomber being mauled from a 6 positions has his tail/belly and topturrets NOT FIRING, because they were shot out...in that case a bomber gets a real turkey...wanna see you do the same trick with a living tailgunner..

In any case, i'm not going to waste any ammo on a lousy tailgunner who will probably shoot back and hit me...i play safe and attack @ 12 positions and go for the cockpit...

the 2nd best option is Schrage Music...proved to be very lethal to the British Bombers during nightraids...but i would NOT try that versus a b17 (for example) with an active belly Ballturretgunner during daylight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

and indeed, in my opion the AI gunners in IL2 and FB are WAY too good, but that is indeed for game balance i think...though it should be more like the gunner AI on B17 Flying Fortress...i think....

regards,

Der Tote Baron a.k.a. SK_Black_Knight....
______________________________
Sky Knights Squadron Leader

SeaFireLIV
02-26-2004, 06:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Der_Tote_Baron:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>My be proper tactics, but historical, nope. Not much gun film recorded with head on attacks, but tons with rear aspect runs. The data posted here with the rates and success also proves historically these types of attacks were the minority. Radar and GCI just wasn't that good, and in game your setting it up so you aren't dealing with intelligent escorts. Doubt you'd find much success with manned fighters about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You failed to notice that on every wwII guncam film showing a bomber being mauled from a 6 positions has his tail/belly and topturrets NOT FIRING, because they were shot out...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very, very good point. Many times I`ve watched this footage wondering about the carnage that must have already been dealt to the rear B17 gunner to allow a close confident guncam like that.

I never normally do QMB but I went up against a B17, went high and came down at a 5OC angle and sometimes high six. It was not hard to hit him and shoot past without damage (of course I was going topspeed and this was only one B17).

The biggest success I found was in head on attacks, several times I took out the B17 with shots into the cockpit (fired well ahead as he came forward).

An additional I noticed on playback that the B17 would actually try an avoidance manouever in the head on, as if trying to avoid my shots to the pilot. Very nice.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/little_armsFB.jpg
The Fights continue out of the Servers...

mortoma
02-26-2004, 06:49 PM
You can attack any bomber successfully in FB from almost dead six. There is a secret to it that only an experienced offline campaigner like me would know. I think it's a bug really. But if you get up behind any bomber and skid with your rudder as you close on them, they can't hit you!! I just finished a campaign mission in a BF-109F2 and shot down two ( of a flight of four ) Russian SB-2M-103s and never got hit even one time. Not a scratch. I do it all the time. Now the secret is out.....use your rudder to skid and those dumb AI won't hit you, not just the bomber you're attacking, but also the others close to him.

Slammin_
02-26-2004, 06:55 PM
The AI has a hard time hitting you if you jink just a little. The trick is to not be where they are aiming, which also makes hitting them a little harder, but at least you can make as many passes as you want as long as you keep this in mind.

Rajvosa
02-27-2004, 01:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AtomicRunt:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rajvosa:
Baron

Don't waste your breath trying to explain the proper tactics to these guys! If they hadn't figured it out by now, I guess they never will. No matter how hard you try.

Regards,

Jasko

LMAO! Simply asked a couple questions and this is what ya get.Some guys were discussing dead-zones on the B-17 the other night while I was in a game,how true I have no idea. Hence the reason I asked. your post does and says nothing.
Baron, and the rest of you..thx for your insight.

Salute!
AB AtomicRunt
http://www.execulink.com/~jesten/LogoABS.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Atomic runt

My reply came out the wrong way, I see that now. What I meant was that this topic has been discussed over and over.

Yes approaching from the 6 is the most convenient, but also the dumbest way to attack a bomber. Take your time and get some advantage over him and aim for cockpit like Baron said.

Regards,

Jasko

http://www.aftermathmedia.com/skreed/media/mss.jpg