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tonywizzz
04-05-2004, 05:37 PM
Tks for all the info Stalls/Spins, having been practising off-line, and am aware of limiations in Spit by no means proficient but all your input has been a great help.


Next question to practise flight behaviour I have just made a single mission Spit Mk Vb against Ace Bf-109-E4, no advantage, naturally this inevitably invlves both aircraft coming head on.

What are the best tactics?

At the moment I tend to wait until closing distance approx 1k dive and barrel roll/bank.

I notice on-line head tp head is common, however I never fly externals or padlock on, presumably at a big dis-advantage because of this, most who fly no externals/padlock are alreadty accomplished, bear in mind my novice status!

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tonywizzz
04-05-2004, 05:37 PM
Tks for all the info Stalls/Spins, having been practising off-line, and am aware of limiations in Spit by no means proficient but all your input has been a great help.


Next question to practise flight behaviour I have just made a single mission Spit Mk Vb against Ace Bf-109-E4, no advantage, naturally this inevitably invlves both aircraft coming head on.

What are the best tactics?

At the moment I tend to wait until closing distance approx 1k dive and barrel roll/bank.

I notice on-line head tp head is common, however I never fly externals or padlock on, presumably at a big dis-advantage because of this, most who fly no externals/padlock are alreadty accomplished, bear in mind my novice status!

http://img26.photobucket.com/albums/v79/Tony_Wizzz/il2/307logo.gif

http://img26.photobucket.com/albums/v79/Tony_Wizzz/il2/RAF%20307%20Squadron%20Wijaszko/

http://www.geocities.com/skrzydla/

Longjocks
04-05-2004, 07:06 PM
I play chicken!

Seriously, I usually try to gain altitude above the enemy once I spot them. I try to put myself in a position where the enemy must climb and lose energy. I'm never too concerned if this allows then to end up on my tail as long as I have this energy advantage, however if I can manage a turn on them when they are recovering from the climb it can be bagged up very quickly.

But it all depends on the situation and planes involved. A little too much info for me to type during my work break that technically ended 35 minutes ago.

By the way, padlock can be as much a detriment as an advantage unless you understand and use it correctly. Using the hat is all I personally need to look around. Most external views offer little to no advantage in combat (except external padlock maybe) and the cockpit views do just as well.

"Thanks for the inspiration to rise above you all."

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2004, 07:44 PM
About the head-on....DON'T.

Only a poor pilot will find himself in a "joust" situation. Never endeavor to start a fight from such a poor position. Rule of thumb is, wait until you're on somebody's six before you go hosing away with the guns. If you're not on his tail, you haven't put in the work yet.

It's almost always a dumb thing to do to give up a shot to get a shot. The other guy might be a better shot than you. He might be luckier than you. He may have more guns than you. Too much risk. Solve your position problem first, then worry about the offensive.

There are some exceptions to this, notably if you know you're up against a weakly gunned plane and you've got something like a FW190, bristling with cannon. Then it becomes less of a risk (but still too much for my tastes). Or, your plane is damaged or you're badly outnumbered and this is the only shot you're likely to get. And in that latter case, I'd think getting the hell out of there is preferable to thinking about a shot, anyway. The last exception is attacking a bomber with heavy tail gunnery.

If I see enemy in the vicinity, I try to insist on the alt advantage. If I don't have it, I'll try to make my course parallel and grab. Let him climb up to me.

FI-Aflak
04-05-2004, 08:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
About the head-on....DON'T.

Only a poor pilot will find himself in a "joust" situation. Never endeavor to start a fight from such a poor position. Rule of thumb is, wait until you're on somebody's six before you go hosing away with the guns. If you're not on his tail, you haven't put in the work yet.

It's almost always a dumb thing to do to give up a shot to get a shot. The other guy might be a better shot than you. He might be luckier than you. He may have more guns than you. Too much risk. Solve your position problem first, then worry about the offensive.

There are some exceptions to this, notably if you know you're up against a weakly gunned plane and you've got something like a FW190, bristling with cannon. Then it becomes less of a risk (but still too much for my tastes). Or, your plane is damaged or you're badly outnumbered and this is the only shot you're likely to get. And in that latter case, I'd think getting the hell out of there is preferable to thinking about a shot, anyway. The last exception is attacking a bomber with heavy tail gunnery.

If I see enemy in the vicinity, I try to insist on the alt advantage. If I don't have it, I'll try to make my course parallel and grab. Let him climb up to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm a jug pilot, so I have an advantage is most head-ons, and an about even with the 190.

Anywho, when things get really hairy, when there are more bogeys than I can keep track of, I will sometimes find a boegy at 12 o'clock and pointed at me.

In the jug, I can attempt to maneuver but I like my energy to much. And besides, he will usually get a more dangerous deflection shot off even If i take evasive action. And with those pearls, I decide that my best shot is to point straight at him and hope I kill him before he seriously damages me. The Jug is good at doint that.

I once took a 108 round right to my propellor hub and sustained only cosmetic damage. I watched the track and couldn't believe I didn't loose the engine. Amazing.

go jugg.

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2004, 09:40 PM
Your problem is getting in hairy dogfights in a Jug. Eventually, your luck is going to run out with that spray-n-pray.

You ought to be up at 6 - 8 km alt or running for home. Down low, if you're not beating up trains or strafing fields, you have no business down there. The Jug doesn't dogfight.

tttiger
04-05-2004, 10:20 PM
One again, yet another thread that boils down to simmers versus arcaders.

Head-ons are the all time Noob tactic for arcaders only. The fly-die-respawn-fly-etc. DF crowd.

The only place it was used in WWII as a standard tactic was against Japanese fighters that were very fragile and highly flammable while flying US aircraft that were very tough.

Find me a historical source that says otherwise, please.

Can't believe anyone would even start a thread on it. There's nothing to debate.

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

Spinne_3.-JG51
04-05-2004, 10:40 PM
Head-on is a bad situation to get into. It's like playing Russian roulette. Since you fly with the ****-pit on, I'd recommend that you fly in 'Full Real' servers only. In such servers, the key is to not let your opponent see you. I'm assuming that you're flying the Spitfire, so your best bet is to single out a fighter that has already left the fur-ball, and is on his way home. Dive in behind him, and then spray. You can retain energy much better than he can, so don't be afraid to turn with him, if he tries that. If you're flying in a server that has a squad participating in it, I'd recommend that you keep your eyes peeled, otherwise you'll probably be bounced by one of his team-mates.

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tonywizzz
04-06-2004, 04:34 AM
tttiger
I don't want to fight head-on, pls read the thread! I am asking for tactics to avoid, a fighter coming straight at me, same altitude.

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SeaFireLIV
04-06-2004, 05:03 AM
Well as a rule I don`t do head-ons, although against the AI it`s now possible to survive them. Anyway, I just turn wide of him (left or right), and as he turns to me I`ll suddenly turn into him. He shouldn`t have the angle to hit me or I him, then it becomes a battle of who gets on whos tail. Can work for AI or human.
Another tactic I might use is to let him come on, then suddenly dip below him, dive a bit and come up....
SeaFireLIV...

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Rajvosa
04-06-2004, 05:07 AM
You want to avoid a fighter comming at you, sam ealtitude? Change altitude, then. Dive, climb, but don't turn as you will present a heck of a target.

Personally, I'm not all that fond of head-ons. If i have to, I will play chicken, but I usually try anything not to find my self going face to face with the enemy. Like Stigler said, shoot them in the back, it's prettier so.

Regards,

Jasko

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Tully__
04-06-2004, 05:07 AM
Unless you're an absolute sniper shot, I would strongly recommend avoiding head on contests. It's an excellent way to lose an engine or your virtual life.

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MatuDa
04-06-2004, 05:45 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif never go into a headon. avoid the situation.

And the best ways to avoid damage in HO is a barrel or dive, depends on situation which to use.

trumper
04-06-2004, 10:06 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I don't think the thread was whether it was a good idea or not to fight head on but more to question how do you avoid or combat it.
Unfortunatly in QMB it is the only option to start the mission

tonywizzz
04-06-2004, 10:11 AM
Tks Trumper u understand my question

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Chuck_Older
04-06-2004, 10:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Well as a rule I don`t do head-ons, although against the AI it`s now possible to survive them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly what I was going to say.

Against enemy AI, you can get away with head-on attacks in FB now.

Note that I said "get away with".

*****************************
Punk Rockers in the UK, they won't notice anyway. They're all too busy fighting for a good place under the lighting~ Clash

Chuck_Older
04-06-2004, 10:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tonywizzz:
Tks Trumper u understand my question

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about this-

As soon as the QMB mission starts, go full power climb. Close the radiator. Your engine temp will start off very much in the green at the beginning of the mission. But remeber to open the rad later! Start to gain an altitude advantage, but the AI will often have superior energy after he climbs after you. As you level off to regain some speed, use rudder to yaw the plane and watch the enemy as he heads right at you. When his distance is just about close enough for him to fire, he will bank, most likely, as you have used a flat turn to keep him in view. This bank is a signal that he is getting ready to fire! Kick over the rudder towards him, to get on his other side (belly side). It's harder for him to 'go negative' to follow your maneuver. If you do this right, I find you can use the short dive you just did to pick up enough speed to beat his answering manuever, which is frequently a scissors, by climbing as you turn. You can watch him bleed off energy and speed, then swoop down and nail him.
I'm trying to perfect that with a P-47 right now. I'm not there yet http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

*****************************
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trumper
04-06-2004, 11:04 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifThanks Chuck_older for the reply,i will give it a go,thanks again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2004, 11:49 AM
You want merge tips for avoiding the HO dweeb?

I got 'em.

Defensive Flying Tactics; HO avoidance is near the top... (http://www.naysayers.com/9jg52/defensive.htm)

The Tracks are old, and probably won't play. Oh well.

But, don't use these tactics in a WonderWoman server, where "the engine and cowling aren't there". It doesn't work in that setting. These assume there are noses and blindspots to take advantage of. Not for the arcade user.

BpGemini
04-06-2004, 01:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
About the head-on....DON'T.

Only a poor pilot will find himself in a "joust" situation. Never endeavor to start a fight from such a poor position. Rule of thumb is, wait until you're on somebody's six before you go hosing away with the guns. If you're not on his tail, you haven't put in the work yet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Bad bad advice Stiglr.
It seems you‚'re speaking from the advantage point of view of having an extreme advantage either in aircraft or in position.
This view just isn‚'t realistic.
‚"Wait until you‚'re on somebody‚'s six before...‚"Ě makes me want to laugh.
If the situation is there to attach to someone‚'s six then ok, but that‚'s not always the case.
In fact, unless you‚'re flying some n00b uber plane it‚'s not even the case most of the time.

First off, if you excel at the head on pass use it!

Second, take this example I ran into over the weekend; there were 3 P-38‚'s versus me in a Zero. That‚'s a 3 vs. 1 against 3 aircraft much faster than me. Now add in the fact that I had just took off from my base and reached about halfway out between the coastline (Pacific map) and the atoll when they came down on me. In this situation if you even attempt to ‚"get a better position‚"Ě or engage one of these B&Zmers the other two will eat you for breakfast. These weren‚'t the AI nor were they a collection of n00bs dumb enough to turn with me. They stuck to their B&Z tactics and made good extensions. The best solution for me was exactly what I did. I kept them in my sight using the hat switch while I circled low (makes it a little tougher on the B&Zmers) and I conserved my speed. Each time one of their birds nosed down I nosed up for the head-on. I downed two out of three before help arrived.

Now tell me the head-on isn‚'t a valid or good tactic.

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trumper
04-06-2004, 02:41 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifAHHH Blitzpig Gemini,you did really well but you did'nt have much choice.You were put into a position where all the cards were stacked against you,what would've been you tactics if you had been on equal terms in hieght and speed or even better .Well done http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BpGemini
04-06-2004, 03:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trumper:
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifAHHH Blitzpig Gemini,you did really well but you did'nt have much choice.You were put into a position where all the cards were stacked against you,what would've been you tactics if you had been on equal terms in hieght and speed or even better .Well done http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


When I‚'m flying my P-63 (something fast enough to dictate some fights) and I‚'m on equal terms or have the advantage then I go for the maneuver kill. Locate myself in a safe spot.

The head-on pass tactic is like the crossover dribble in basketball. There‚'s a time to use it and other times when you shouldn‚'t.

In my opinion it is VERY bad advice to say ‚"NEVER‚"Ě use or learn this tactic because the head-on pass is a part of the art form and should be practiced as a valid tactic.

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XyZspineZyX
04-07-2004, 10:02 AM
Also, I put a disclaimer in my "never HO" reasoning why when outnumbered, a HO might be the best or only shot you'll get, and then you may have to take it.

I covered that already, if you're listening, Gemini.

Given a *choice* or a competitive plane, the advice is still apropos. It is too risky to use a HO as a "valid tactic" in *most* cases.

As for speaking from a POV of an alt advantage, why is this such a thing to be avoided? This can and should be controlled as much as possible. Most guys just go roaring off at 300 feet directly at the nearest enemy base like lemming morons, then wonder why they're always getting bounced and forced into positions where the HO is their only option. If you bother to get some alt, and get upsun (before somebody does this to you), you'll find yourself in advantaged positions more often.

Flying_Nutcase
04-07-2004, 10:36 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stiglr:
You want merge tips for avoiding the HO dweeb?

I got 'em.
===============================================

Stiglr,

That sort of arrogrance is uncalled for.

Who are you to call a relative newcomer a 'dweeb'. My opinion of you has plummeted through the floor.

You owe Trumper an apology, PERIOD.


Nutcase.

"If you think you're great but you're not you'll CRITICIZE others. If you ARE GREAT, you'll be humble enough to UNDERSTAND others."

Flying_Nutcase
04-07-2004, 10:41 AM
Okay, so that's Tonywhizzz not Trumper.

BpGemini
04-07-2004, 10:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Also, I put a disclaimer in my "never HO" reasoning why when outnumbered, a HO might be the best or only shot you'll get, and then you may have to take it.

I covered that already, if you're listening, Gemini.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I saw it I just wanted to balance the ‚"never‚"Ě lead off. It was too extreme considering HO‚'s are a valid and good tactic to learn.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Given a *choice* or a competitive plane, the advice is still apropos. It is too risky to use a HO as a "valid tactic" in *most* cases.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It‚'s ‚"risky‚"Ě to go into combat at all. With that thinking you might at well stay in the hanger http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif. Seriously if the HO is a practiced tactic and you have an advantage at using it then it should be a part of your repertoire, simple as that. Deciding when to use it and when to avoid it comes with experience. Avoiding it just because it‚'s risky means your not using every thing in your arsenal.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
As for speaking from a POV of an alt advantage, why is this such a thing to be avoided? This can and should be controlled as much as possible. Most guys just go roaring off at 300 feet directly at the nearest enemy base like lemming morons, then wonder why they're always getting bounced and forced into positions where the HO is their only option. If you bother to get some alt, and get upsun (before somebody does this to you), you'll find yourself in advantaged positions more often.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said avoid an advantage. Guys who do go roaring off at 300 meters do have a thing or two to learn. Generally I CAP the base just after take-off. This is a good tactic because you gain some altitude while you help protect your allies taking off and your base. This doesn‚'t change my decisions I made going into the fight I described. You have 3 B&Z efficient boggies with an altitude advantage heading to your position. Are you actually saying you would try to climb in the scenario I mentioned LMAO. Nickname you dead meat if you think that‚'s wise. They held all the cards. It was 3 vs. 1 they had the faster planes (P-38s) with a substantial altitude advantage. The best move for me was to drop to the deck in the Zero. Not only does this force them to lose some of their altitude advantage but it also makes it harder to B&Z as I effectively become a moving ground target instead of an aerial target that would give B&Zmers some leniency on timing and overshooting (and no I don‚'t mean so low you limit your movement Ė between 100-500 works well). Are you saying you would‚'ve preferred to climb to their level in that scenario? The Zero Accelerates fast but has a slow top speed. Down low I can use it‚'s acceleration and quick climb to my advantage. Trying to climb you would‚'ve meet them on their ground where they have the speed and range and they would‚'ve called the shots. I made a call that allowed me to dictate the fight a little (they still could‚'ve retreated if they chose).

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XyZspineZyX
04-07-2004, 11:09 AM
You still don't get it, Gemini.

Yes, I'd climb in that situation where 3 enemies were "headed my way in B&Z craft". Hell yes. Climb right up into them? No. I'd do what so many DF dweebs avoid like the plague: climb out in the opposite direction of the enemy, stay on the deck for a little so as to go undetected in the area of the AF, then grab alt, turn around and come back to the field...or go somewhere else while getting even MORE alt.

DF dweebs feel that that would "waste 5 minutes of hot and heavy action". *shrug* Depends on how you look at it: I look at it as setting things up for a multiple kill sortie and RTBing without a scratch. You can sometimes do that when you fly smart and set yourself up for a good flight.

As for the poster who didn't like my "arrogance" in calling HO dweebs what they are, tough. HO artists *are* dweebs. The HO pass in an even or neutral situation is a sure sign of a poor pilot. They're the ones clogging up WonderWoman servers, where they have no visual impediments so they can take their "under the nose" shots and face blasts with accuracy they couldn't possibly get in the real world (not to mention cajones they wouldn't have if they knew real bullets might be coming back at them). There's a reason why only ONE man in the history of WWII (that being H.J. Marseille) was *known* to be able to routinely hit planes out of his visual field. Needless to say, they weren't HO shots, though.

By the way Nutcase, I didn't write: "Want tips for avoiding the HO *comma* (you) dweeb", I wrote, "Want tips for avoiding THE HO DWEEB". I wasn't insulting the original post author, I was giving him what he asked for.

BpGemini
04-07-2004, 11:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
You still don't get it, Gemini.

Yes, I'd climb in that situation where 3 enemies were "headed my way in B&Z craft". Hell yes. Climb right up into them? No. I'd do what so many DF dweebs avoid like the plague: climb out in the opposite direction of the enemy, stay on the deck for a little so as to go undetected in the area of the AF, then grab alt, turn around and come back to the field...or go somewhere else while getting even MORE alt.

DF dweebs feel that that would "waste 5 minutes of hot and heavy action". *shrug* Depends on how you look at it: I look at it as setting things up for a multiple kill sortie and RTBing without a scratch. You can sometimes do that when you fly smart and set yourself up for a good flight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let‚'s see, in the scenario I mentioned you‚'re choices and results are as follows:
‚"climb out in the opposite direction of the enemy‚"Ě = You‚'re dead
‚"stay on the deck for a little so as to go undetected in the area‚"Ě = You‚'re dead
‚"then grab alt, turn around and come back to the field‚"Ě = You didn‚'t even make it this far
‚"or go somewhere else while getting even MORE alt‚"Ě = Sgt. Deadmeat

You truly seem to not understand either A. Dog fight tactics or B. the scenario I described. I‚'m pulling for B since some of your ‚"solutions‚"Ě are obvious disasters.

My name is Stiglr and I‚'m going to climb away from 3 P-38s who already see me and already have a significant altitude advantage.

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/ROFLMAO.gif

Do the ‚"n00bs‚"Ě a favor and quit giving advice.
(Unless you truly misunderstood the scenario)

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XyZspineZyX
04-07-2004, 12:03 PM
No, you said "headed to your position"; that's not the same as "directly overhead".

Also, with the graphics in this sim being somewhat penal towards planes with alt, there's no guarantee that they'll see a very low plane sneaking off in the opposite direction, especialy if one makes a turn so as not to head off exactly in the opposite direction parallel with the fligth strip. I know for a fact that when the shoe's on the other foot, and I'm theu guy up in the sky with alt over an airbase, I look at the end of a runway that heads to the action more than the other side.... because most guys always fly towards the enemy.

I've gotten off of many capped fields by doing just what I espouse; and even if they do see you and try to bounce you, you can always fly back to your airfield, where the AAA can complicate their situation, or more freindlies might spawn.

BpGemini
04-07-2004, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
No, you said "headed to your position"; that's not the same as "directly overhead".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You not talking about much of a difference when they‚'re no more than a click out and I‚'m not sure what cozy cockpit you frequent (La-7 maybe?) but a Zero isn‚'t going to turn and outrun 3 P-38s who are already ‚"heading to your position‚"Ě.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Also, with the graphics in this sim being somewhat penal towards planes with alt, there's no guarantee that they'll see a very low plane sneaking off in the opposite direction, especialy if one makes a turn so as not to head off exactly in the opposite direction parallel with the fligth strip. I know for a fact that when the shoe's on the other foot, and I'm theu guy up in the sky with alt over an airbase, I look at the end of a runway that heads to the action more than the other side.... because most guys always fly towards the enemy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like you love to hope and take chances an awful lot for someone who doesn‚'t even want to chance a head-on. Not mention your ‚"chances‚"Ě put the bad guy at your six position. You also seem to like running a lot. I would say this mind set impedes your ability to scrap it out.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
I've gotten off of many capped fields by doing just what I espouse; and even if they do see you and try to bounce you, you can always fly back to your airfield, where the AAA can complicate their situation, or more freindlies might spawn.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again with the running.
‚"You can always (always being a key word) fly back to your airfield‚"Ě this tells me you don‚'t find yourself flying slow aircraft very often. Run run run. You should realize some don‚'t have that luxury because not only do they fly against better sticks than yourself (yours all seem to be blind and can‚'t find you) they sometimes don‚'t fly the fastest and best planes that can easily get them out of trouble and dictate the fight.

Outside the realm of flying the coziest of planes the Head On becomes are very valid tactic.

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XyZspineZyX
04-07-2004, 12:57 PM
Coziest planes? This from the self-proclaimed P-63 guy? And before that, a -39 fan (probably when that one was egregiously and obviously overmodelled)? Please.

I fly mostly 109s, and mostly G6s and G2s, so I'm not part of the ueberplane crowd. I don't fly K4s or even G14s most of the time. A P-39 can outrun me (or a late LaGG-3), a Spit can outturn me, a P47 can outdive me, heck *any* plane can do dive recovery better (except maybe a P-38 pushing it too hard).

And, getting alt away from the battle isn't "running"; it's smart positioning. Using field ack is running, I'll admit that, but it beats becoming a smoking hole in the ground when you don't even have enough alt to bail. I'll take that over a risky HO pass.

In the case of a Zero, you're right; it's never going anywhere against any plane it faces; it's too slow... even when it is accurately modelled (in FB it sure *isn't*). But even a Zero can use alt (to dominate P-40s, F4Fs and just about anything it faced until mid '43).

BpGemini
04-07-2004, 01:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Coziest planes? This from the self-proclaimed P-63 guy? And before that, a -39 fan (probably when that one was egregiously and obviously overmodelled)? Please.

I fly mostly 109s, and mostly G6s and G2s, so I'm not part of the ueberplane crowd. I don't fly K4s or even G14s most of the time. A P-39 can outrun me (or a late LaGG-3), a Spit can outturn me, a P47 can outdive me, heck *any* plane can do dive recovery better (except maybe a P-38 pushing it too hard).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pffffttttttt, I flew the P-39 exclusively in IL-2 (the original) when people wouldn‚'t even think of touching the plane. The P-63, as I‚'ve mentioned many times actually has the ability to dictate battles a new luxury for me and one that‚'s been enjoyed by 109, Yak and La pilots for a long long time. Btw, the P-39 N1 can‚'t outrun a 109 maybe the Q10 but not the N1. The 109 is a cozy plane IMO but not nearly as cozy as some Russian planes.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
And, getting alt away from the battle isn't "running"; it's smart positioning. Using field ack is running, I'll admit that, but it beats becoming a smoking hole in the ground when you don't even have enough alt to bail. I'll take that over a risky HO pass.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You started this argument off of my scenario in which it has no basis. I already agreed that good positioning is a good tactic but in the case of my scenario it wasn‚'t realistic.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
In the case of a Zero, you're right; it's never going anywhere against any plane it faces; it's too slow... even when it is accurately modelled (in FB it sure *isn't*). But even a Zero can use alt (to dominate P-40s, F4Fs and just about anything it faced until mid '43).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that altitude is already present. You seem to keep forgetting that that this debate was based on a scenario. Getting position or altitude to begin with is a VERY obvious statement outside the context of the scenario we we‚'re discussing. In the scenario it wasn‚'t realistic and really had no place.

Bottom line: My scenario was meant to point out that the Head-On is a valid and necessary tactic to learn. After that it‚'s a matter of knowing when to use it. When you said ‚"never‚"Ě it was not good advice, not even close.

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BpGemini
04-07-2004, 01:38 PM
Btw, I've found myself having to fly the Zero more than my P-63 on my late Pacific Map because everyone likes flying the P-38s and other new U.S. craft.

On my early Pacific Map the P-63 isn't even there.

Hell the only time I seem to get some P-63 action in is on my 3-team all years map and on that map you have plenty of craft more "uber" than the P-63.

:wink2

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BpGemini
04-07-2004, 01:59 PM
Here's your speeds.

P-39N1
Sea Level: 500 km/h
@ 3500: 605 km/h

P-39Q1
Sea Level: 520 km/h
@3500: 616 km/h

P-39Q10
Sea Level: 540 km/h
@3500: 640 km/h

Bf-109 G-2
Sea Level: 535 km/h
@3500: 636 km/h

Bf-109 G-6
Sea Level: 530 km/h
@3500: 640 km/h

Bf-109 G-6 Late
Sea Level: 535 km/h
@3500: 650 km/h

Bf-109 G-6/AS
Sea Level: 581 km/h
@3500: 690 km/h

Considering I rarely if ever flew the Q10 version I would say you pretty much have the faster plane set.

I flew the Q1 in FB nearly always with the N1 second.
In the original IL-2 I flew the N1 exclusively.
In AEP I fly the N1 in my early Pacific War Map.

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tttiger
04-07-2004, 02:22 PM
Whoaaaa...

Hadn't looked at this board for a day and boy, did this thread take a turn. Sri if my first post didn't answer your question. I thought it was so obvious...

First, TonyWhizz, avoiding a head-on is pretty simple. You just angle off and then break when he tries to turn into you. DON'T zoom (he'll shoot you in the belly) and DON'T dive (he may be able to split S very easily). Just angle off and go into a merge when he tries to follow.

I know it's hard in QMB because the enemy has a sniper rifle and can PK you at almost a kilometer. I never set them above veteran for that reason. If you're getting hammered in the ace setting, well, you aren't playing anything realistic so it really doesn't matter.

If you want to learn tactics, the info is all out there on the web for free. Or you can buy Robert Shaw's Fighter Combat book (The Bible) or both. Tailspin (S!) has posted the best set of links to tactics that I've found:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Tailspin/index.htm

At the risk of (again) sounding arrogant, it constantly amazes me how intellectually lazy many people in this sim are. Being ignorant is your Constitutional right, of course, but this stuff is so easy to research. The internet is an amazing resource. I use it many times every day at work.

If you are serious about simming as a hobby, you should be reading everything you can get your hands on. And it's right there and it's free.

BPGemini, you are providing a good example. The P-63 never saw combat with the USAAF in the Pacific or anywhere else. It was used for training in the US but almost all went to the Soviet Union. Why would you think you would find a P-63 in a US mission in the Pacific? And why would you think it would be on an early war map?

If you don't learn and respect the history, and if you're flying a plane where it never really flew, it makes your views on all topics a bit suspect.

Here's a link from the US Air Force Museum that was easy to find:

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p63.htm

Enough. Do your homework, then ask the questions for which you can't find answers.

With apologies to Col. Scott: "Google is My Co-Pilot." http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Aloha,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

BpGemini
04-07-2004, 02:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tttiger:
BPGemini, you are providing a good example. The P-63 never saw combat with the USAAF in the Pacific or anywhere else. It was used for training in the US but almost all went to the Soviet Union. Why would you think you would find a P-63 in a US mission in the Pacific? And why would you think it would be on an early war map?

If you don't learn and respect the history, and if you're flying a plane where it never really flew, it makes your views on all topics a bit suspect.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You may want to read my post again.
I said the P-63 IS NOT on my early Pacific Map.
The only P-63s that saw combat fought in the Pacific (shot down a Japanese fighter - Russian Pilot).

Also, I never said my 3-team map was historical.
Anything else?

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XyZspineZyX
04-07-2004, 03:39 PM
...just looking at that 'Red Baron' P-39 getup and rolling my tongue firmly in cheek....

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Zentaurus
04-07-2004, 03:43 PM
Hey Stiglr and BpGemini,
i like your little threadbattle a lot...its amusing, but what i ask myself, whos tactic and flying style would win in an even fight ? Why dont you try it out and post a track here ?
Same starting level, same plane, once everybody planechoice...then we might see whose tactics are more deadly...words do never proove anything, they are mere opinions..

As the thread starter asked originally, "what to do if approaching another plane on same level" i think he didnt ask about Headons specifically but rather about how to handle the merge situation in general.
Having done some Df (3rd place) in the german part of the ICAS competition i can tell you that the handling of the merge is anything but a trivial problem and if done wrongly against a good pilot the fight can be decided already in the first seconds..its a bit like chess, playing the beginning correctly is of overwhelming importance..

My best tip would be to study the "sinking merge", going in while climbing, but then about 2 k before the merge starting to go down steeply and pull up with combat flaps at the merge or shortly before (leadturn). This will loop you around faster and in a far better angles position then a guy who goes straight on and then pulls up.

II/JG54_Zent

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BpGemini
04-07-2004, 03:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
...just looking at that 'Red Baron' P-39 getup and rolling my tongue firmly in cheek....

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah, that's a little fecked isn't it? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


I don't make skins and I lost my Red Baron without the iron crosses that RMutt made.
Oh well, I'm mostly German in ancestry but all-American at heart so it fits.

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BpGemini
04-07-2004, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zentaurus:
Hey Stiglr and BpGemini,
i like your little threadbattle a lot...its amusing, but what i ask myself, whos tactic and flying style would win in an even fight ? Why dont you try it out and post a track here ?
Same starting level, same plane, once everybody planechoice...then we might see whose tactics are more deadly...words do never proove anything, they are mere opinions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hold no ill will toward Stiglr. As far as I‚'m concerned we‚'re just tossing opinions back and forth. I‚'m always open for a fight though. I also host a 6-10 hour server every Friday or Saturday and all are welcome to come. Saying ‚"words do never prove anything‚"Ě is saying to exchange opinions or ideas when it‚'s perfectly natural to do both. Btw, same starting level, same plane, wouldn‚'t prove the point I was making. In that case he would fly the P-38 at an altitude advantage and I would fly the Zero.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zentaurus:
As the thread starter asked originally, "what to do if approaching another plane on same level" i think he didnt ask about Headons specifically but rather about how to handle the merge situation in general.
Having done some Df (3rd place) in the german part of the ICAS competition i can tell you that the handling of the merge is anything but a trivial problem and if done wrongly against a good pilot the fight can be decided already in the first seconds..its a bit like chess, playing the beginning correctly is of overwhelming importance..

My best tip would be to study the "sinking merge", going in while climbing, but then about 2 k before the merge starting to go down steeply and pull up with combat flaps at the merge or shortly before (leadturn). This will loop you around faster and in a far better angles position then a guy who goes straight on and then pulls up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anticipation is the main key to strategy. Merging is a mass of gray not easily confined to simple black and white solutions. It all depends on your anticipation of your opponent and getting the jump on his maneuvers. I agree it wasn‚'t all about head-on shots. I simply started my debate upon reading ‚"never‚"Ě.

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tonywizzz
04-07-2004, 05:56 PM
My best tip would be to study the "sinking merge", going in while climbing, but then about 2 k before the merge starting to go down steeply and pull up with combat flaps at the merge or shortly before (leadturn). This will loop you around faster and in a far better angles position then a guy who goes straight on and then pulls up.

II/JG54_Zent

By Zentaurus

Tks this actually is just about what i figured out for nyself, as a matter of interest i constantly pick off two A1 Aces using this tactic. Before it all kicks off again, not impressive I know, but in my learning curve i'm pleased.

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KrasniyYastreb
04-07-2004, 06:22 PM
I love it when enemy fighters go head to head against my IL-2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif