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goshikisen
07-28-2004, 03:45 PM
A related topic of interest...

Some of you may know of Flugwerk, a german company that is building a replica FW-190 using the original plans from the Focke-Wulf factory. The airframe is as true to original as they could make it without having an original BMW powerplant to work with. I believe they have used a Russian radial in it's place.

The aircraft took its first test flight the other day and if you follow the link below you can see a few pictures and some movie clips of the event.

http://www.flugwerk.com/new/diary/diary.shtm

Regards, Goshikisen

goshikisen
07-28-2004, 03:45 PM
A related topic of interest...

Some of you may know of Flugwerk, a german company that is building a replica FW-190 using the original plans from the Focke-Wulf factory. The airframe is as true to original as they could make it without having an original BMW powerplant to work with. I believe they have used a Russian radial in it's place.

The aircraft took its first test flight the other day and if you follow the link below you can see a few pictures and some movie clips of the event.

http://www.flugwerk.com/new/diary/diary.shtm

Regards, Goshikisen

BaldieJr
07-28-2004, 03:50 PM
Its a knock-off. Kind of like those bands who play other peoples music for tips or replica Lotuses built from Ford Pintos. I can't get too excited about it, personally.

trumper
07-28-2004, 04:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Its a knock-off. Kind of like those bands who play other peoples music for tips or replica Lotuses built from Ford Pintos. I can't get too excited about it, personally.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The amount of work that has gone into getting it this far and the fact that you won't see a "real " F/W in the air makes it a real boon.How many Spitfires and P51's that are still flying are "really original",non,most have been rebuilt to some extreme.
At least this way an original and valuable airframe can stay that way. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

goshikisen
07-28-2004, 08:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Its a knock-off. Kind of like those bands who play other peoples music for tips or replica Lotuses built from Ford Pintos. I can't get too excited about it, personally.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Knock off is a bit of a stretch... especially considering that originals are hard to come by. If you take a look at the site the aircraft is not a fiberglass body on a volkswagen chassis. This is, in every way but name and engine, a Focke-Wulf airframe.

The chances of seeing an original flying Focke Wulf 190 in the near future is very remote (White 1 in Florida is still years away from flying). This is the next best thing.

WUAF_Badsight
07-28-2004, 09:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Its a knock-off. Kind of like those bands who play other peoples music for tips or replica Lotuses built from Ford Pintos. I can't get too excited about it, personally.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

your so wrong

its a FW-190 except for the motor

(which is the ASH-82 IIRC , the motor used in the Lavochkin LA-7 !)

.
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MrOblongo
07-28-2004, 10:07 PM
Hope that one can turn... (not like the cow like we have in the game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif)

Cess-Harp
07-28-2004, 10:24 PM
I saw a post , Knock off it said.
Well let me say something as I have learned in the EAA.
Most all the flyable WWII aircraft that you see today would go down as a { knock off } infact the only thing they have that is original is the MFG tag that was rivited on the airframe when it was built.
But that part will quailfy it as a { original } aircraft.
after the rebuild.

And if a aircraft is built from the original prints the factory can make it and some do , a original and give it a number in the line of MFG.
The 262 that has just been built has been given a number by the MFG.

So I can and do get excited when someone takes there time and money to build one of these so we will have the pleasure of seeing them in the air again.

Rab03
07-29-2004, 12:38 AM
It is Fw190 airframe.

I may be wrong, but I believe that in civil aviation airframes are sold, while engines are being installed depending on customer's wishes. For example, you decide to buy B-757. You define interior equipment, classes, etc. and finally, choose installable powerplant that will run it.

bazzaah2
07-29-2004, 01:01 AM
it's a rebuild, done as closely as possible to the way in which they were built.

A brilliant project and a great toy for a rich pilot or two out there.

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Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

Fennec_P
07-29-2004, 01:33 AM
Most importantly, with the original airframe design, and an engine of similar power, it should handle like a FW-190. Thats what its all about.

One day you may see it stalling, spinning and rolling like a blender at an airshow near you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jugent
07-29-2004, 01:40 AM
I think it is very good dead to rebuilt german birds although they are original. Perhaps some enthusiasts are making a newbuilt version of the engine as well or find a original engine somewhere.

I think that one thing is odd and that is that no newbuilt La, laggs and yaks are built. It must be easy because that big parts of them are made of wood. And all the original birds has decomposed because they became infested with fungus and decomposed after some years.

At Duxford they have a "half finished" Yak built of aluminium.
I saw the spits in the air over Duxford and they made a big impression on me.

The P47 fleew as well but it didnt fleew as nice as the spits, maybee the pilot.

It would have been nice to se a Me, a FW and yaks, and laggs to compare.

If the russian planes flies as good in real air as they do in virtual, it must be a sight to see them fly again.

Bremspropeller
07-29-2004, 03:21 AM
It has a stronger engine (1900PS compared to the unboosted original 1750PS) and is 450kg lighter (no armor, no guns, lighter radio equipment, not ETC...)than the Fw190A-8 built in 1944.

Thus, it will handle better than the original a/c.


Watch for the type's designation: it's an FW190A-8/N (FW ist for Flug Werk, the "/N" is for "new"), while the Focke-Wulf a/c had the designation Fw190A-8 (capital "F", normal "w").


http://www.wildlife-art-paintings.co.uk/picture-pictures/peregrine-falcon/peregrine-falcon_detail.jpg

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http://www.jg68.de.vu

DaBallz
07-29-2004, 03:27 AM
That engine looks like an Wright R-2600 knockoff.
If that's the case it is more powerful,and a bit heavier
than the original BMW.


Da...

ASM 1
07-29-2004, 03:36 AM
mooore Po-wer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

Andrew

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F16_Filur
07-29-2004, 03:38 AM
I remember reading they (Flug-Werk) were using a chinese radial instead of the BMW.

robban75
07-29-2004, 03:51 AM
The ASH-82 engine doesn't really fit into the nose of the Fw 190, as can be seen by the very sharp edge behind the armoured nose ring. Either way it's beautiful creation, and the team at the Flugwerk factory have done an outstanding job!
What is nice to know though is that a Fw 190A is being restored witha BMW 801 engine, and it will eventually fly. I'm not sure if Flugwerk has anything to do with this machine.

Flugwerk IS making two Fw 190D's with the original Jumo engines and they will also fly sometime in the future. What a wonderful sight that will be! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
07-29-2004, 05:01 AM
Engine :


Asch 82 "T" / 14 cylinders, 42 ltrs, 1900 hp
direct fuel injected engine

http://home.arcor.de/sebastianleitiger/pics/ajatus.jpg

tfu_iain1
07-29-2004, 05:47 AM
well theres pacific fighters...

then they'll be Battle of Britain

dunno about the competition tho!

BinaryFalcon
07-29-2004, 07:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cess-Harp:

Most all the flyable WWII aircraft that you see today would go down as a { knock off } infact the only thing they have that is original is the MFG tag that was rivited on the airframe when it was built.
But that part will quailfy it as a { original } aircraft.
after the rebuild.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That confirms something I've suspected for a while then, which was "When does it stop being a restoration and become an exact copy instead?"

I'd suspected it all had to do with the original data plate of the vehicle in question, as I've seen numerous "restoration" projects that started with a rusted hulk and upon completion state that "everything except the map light switch in the corner had to be refabricated from new parts". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

It almost seemed as if you really only needed to buy what was once a certain aircraft and then rebuild a "copy", salvage one or two parts and reuse them and it was a "restoration".

Not that I'm complaining at all. I think anything produced to the original spec and otherwise indistinguishable from the stuff produced 60 years ago (aside from the "new" stuff undoubtedly being assembled much better) is just as "good" as a 60 year old bird that's been restored. The "genuine" relics are definitely a little more special though, as they do have a history, but that's the intangible part of it all. Still, that can be a huge thing, as I remember seeing the Enola Gay in the NASM back when they had parts of it on display there.

It was before the museum opened for the day, so it was mostly dark, save for the lights in the gallery they build to house the forward fuselage. Everything was quiet, and it was just me and this very old aircraft, nose to nose. I swear it had a presence, you could just feel the history around it, and I'll admit, I couldn't resist touching it, just for a moment. It was one of those moments in my life I'll never forget, just me and a significant part of aviation and world history in a quiet, empty room. It really made me think.

That's the kind of thing that makes truly "original" aircraft special. A rebuild with only an original dataplate doesn't carry that kind of... emotional weight, for lack of a better term.

However, that doesn't mean full rebuilds are knock offs in any way. They're physically the same as the originals, they just haven't seen the same kind of action.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I may be wrong, but I believe that in civil aviation airframes are sold, while engines are being installed depending on customer's wishes. For example, you decide to buy B-757. You define interior equipment, classes, etc. and finally, choose installable powerplant that will run it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To an extent, maybe. You might have certain engine options available when you buy the aircraft, but you can't just specify anything you personally happen to like and have them slap it on the airframe. It's got to be a certificated and approved installation. For most big iron, I believe that limits to 2, possibly 3 engine choices at most, usually. For smaller GA stuff, if you buy new you generally only have one option, at least as far as manufacturer goes. Even with different HP ratings for something like a C172, for example, it's still basically the same engine, just HP derated with a different prop/accessories.

In any case, again, I wouldn't say using a different powerplant makes this a "knock-off", it's just not a bolt for bolt reproduction. A lot of restorations these days aren't, as safety regs have changed over the last 60+ years. In most cases I don't think they're forced to comply with them, as the aircraft are grandfathered in, but where ever practical I think most people tend to update to more modern standards, as it's just the smart thing to do.

[This message was edited by BinaryFalcon on Thu July 29 2004 at 06:57 AM.]

gpang788
07-29-2004, 07:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Its a knock-off. Kind of like those bands who play other peoples music for tips or replica Lotuses built from Ford Pintos. I can't get too excited about it, personally.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

F#^k You!! "can't get too excited" maybe you need viagra!

bazzaah2
07-29-2004, 07:53 AM
lol, FW190 flies for the first time in 59 years. what's the fuss, dude? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

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Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

goshikisen
07-29-2004, 08:20 AM
A followup dedicated to baldiejr.

Take a look at www.stormbirds.com (http://www.stormbirds.com) and you'll see the replica 2 seater Me-262 being built in Washington. The aircraft had flown 2 test flights at the end of '03 if I remember correctly but one of the main undercarriage legs collapsed and had to be rebuilt. Beginning of July '04 the testing program began again. As with the Flugwerk aircraft this is a reproduction that closely follows the original design. Purists may take issue with the project but I for 1 would love to see this thing fly.

Pacific Fighters fans might want to take a look at this page. This is a zero being rebuilt in North Dakota... the project started out in Winnipeg, Manitoba and was moved to the States. This aircraft is also soon to be test flown.

http://www.j-aircraft.com/walk/dave_pluth/blayd/blayd.htm

I look forward (is "excited" an appropriate word here) to seeing these aircraft fly and I tip my hat to the folks involved in these projects.

Regards, Goshikisen

p.s. if you want more go to google and type in "Doc B-29 Restoration" and see where it leads you.

WWMaxGunz
07-29-2004, 09:46 AM
There are a number of "look alikes" out there. Most all are made to a smaller scale
like 1/2 to 7/8 scale. They have engines of much less power. Some can take high G's
though, well I've seen the plans state that. Is the wing dihedral the same? Is the
wing curvature the same? Very most probably not. Do they incorporate differences
for safer flying? Probably at least some do.

But they still look great and fly fine. They are still works of love and beauty.
And I wouldn't even call any of those "knockoffs".

So here we have something built to the original plans with yes, no guns (armor also?)
and a different engine as close to original as possible (heavier engine would make
up for lack of armor) and they just may ballast the thing to original weight and
balance, govern the engine and then it would fly as the original.

Way beyond knockoff. Try "Work Of Art".

It is also a good trend to see in a world that's been going dark.


Neal

NegativeGee
07-29-2004, 09:53 AM
Obviously Baldie is head of a project that makes Flugwerke look like a bunch of amateurs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - G√ľnther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

Capt._Tenneal
07-29-2004, 10:00 AM
I always wondered how come aircraft companies in the West can't be more like the Russian design bureaus and custom built these WW II warbirds for those wealthy enough to afford them. I'm sure whoever bought out or took over the Focke Wulf firm has the original plans.

Yakovlev has made several Yak-3 replicas for private owners in the USA, of course, with modern safety features and GPS navigation, but still from the original blueprints. Why do we have to rely on restored aircraft to see these birds fly again ?

NorrisMcWhirter
07-29-2004, 10:17 AM
Hi,

This is excellent news and to think that one day there might be a whole flight of these aircraft (FW190A, 190D, 262) is even better.

Whilst FL at Duxford was excellent, I would have dearly loved to have seen more ex-LW aircraft flying.

Top marks to Flugwerk!

Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

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Spinnetti
07-29-2004, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ToP_BlackSheep:
Engine :


Asch 82 "T" / 14 cylinders, 42 ltrs, 1900 hp
direct fuel injected engine

http://home.arcor.de/sebastianleitiger/pics/ajatus.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I went and looked at the plane and the engine, and that motor is a MONSTER.. My understanding is that its Russian designed (no doubt a knock off of an earlier design) but that its built in China...

Spinnetti
07-29-2004, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
There are a number of "look alikes" out there. Most all are made to a smaller scale
like 1/2 to 7/8 scale. They have engines of much less power. Some can take high G's
though, well I've seen the plans state that. Is the wing dihedral the same? Is the
wing curvature the same? Very most probably not. Do they incorporate differences
for safer flying? Probably at least some do.

But they still look great and fly fine. They are still works of love and beauty.
And I wouldn't even call any of those "knockoffs".

So here we have something built to the original plans with yes, no guns (armor also?)
and a different engine as close to original as possible (heavier engine would make
up for lack of armor) and they just may ballast the thing to original weight and
balance, govern the engine and then it would fly as the original.

Way beyond knockoff. Try "Work Of Art".

It is also a good trend to see in a world that's been going dark.


Neal<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Flugwerke planes are EXACT though. These aren't knockoffs - they are built to original specs except aluminum armor and the different engine and avionics.. Whats not to like?

Capt._Tenneal
07-29-2004, 11:23 AM
IMHO, I believe modern replicas of these WW II warbirds done to combat specs can still be useful today and can hold their own in low-level conflicts. Imagine the firepower and weapons loadouts of an FW-190 used in counter-insurgency operations in third world nations.

JG52Uther
07-29-2004, 11:51 AM
Capt thats actually a very interesting and valid point! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/JG52Uther/FW.jpg Yeah Baby!!

lindyman
07-29-2004, 11:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt._Tenneal:
IMHO, I believe modern replicas of these WW II warbirds done to combat specs can still be useful today and can hold their own in low-level conflicts. Imagine the firepower and weapons loadouts of an FW-190 used in counter-insurgency operations in third world nations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't even take that much.

http://www.brushfirewars.org/aircraft/mfi_9b_biafran/mfi_9b_biafran_1.htm

I've actually flown one of those once, which makes me admire their effort even more. They're quite nimble, but so underpowered and not streamlined at all.
_
/Bjorn.

Monty_Thrud
07-29-2004, 12:17 PM
It would be nice to see these warbirds at airshows, just imagine...Spitfires, Hurricanes,Mustangs,Bf109's,FW190's giving a dogfight show, coupled with decent pyrotechnics with ground attacks add an orchestra(but not to noisey, you want to hear the planes) and some stunts and there ya go...one hell of an event http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now all we need is the Mosquito and Tempest http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

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