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Aardvark892
01-12-2004, 04:26 PM
Does anyone know what the normal procedure was if someone had to land in a field, or otherwise un-prepared area? Were they generally taught to land gear up or down, or did it really depend on the state of the plane/pilot discretion? Just asking because I'm thinking of making a movie, and a particular scene requires a forced landing near a river, and I'd like to be somewhat historically accurate. Oh, and BTW, it's a Russian pilot, in a I16 early in the war. Thanks in advance for any info fellas!

SSgt Tim Schuster, USAF
8th MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, ROK

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Aardvark892
01-12-2004, 04:26 PM
Does anyone know what the normal procedure was if someone had to land in a field, or otherwise un-prepared area? Were they generally taught to land gear up or down, or did it really depend on the state of the plane/pilot discretion? Just asking because I'm thinking of making a movie, and a particular scene requires a forced landing near a river, and I'd like to be somewhat historically accurate. Oh, and BTW, it's a Russian pilot, in a I16 early in the war. Thanks in advance for any info fellas!

SSgt Tim Schuster, USAF
8th MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, ROK

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FW190fan
01-12-2004, 04:30 PM
Definitely wheels up. Wheels down and you can ground loop.

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crazyivan1970
01-12-2004, 04:37 PM
From what i read, pilots would be the ones who decides, accoring to landscape and condition of the plane. Belly landing was most common tho, especially on I-16, due to weak gear and great risk of nosing over.

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MosDef_99th
01-12-2004, 04:56 PM
From what I've read in real life, yeah wheels up/ belly down is the safest way. But from my experiences in FB..wheels down ; flip overs mostly occur with brakes on. I have survived many a pure controlled crash allowing the landing gear collapsing to absorb a lot of energy/speed, especially in water. And there have been a few times when i've come in easy for belly landings and exploded; it's really depending on the pilot/situation. But for me I've found myself being surprised at my landing gear down survival rate.

lazio5
01-12-2004, 04:58 PM
yeah, wheels up for reality.. sand not taken into account in this game.

tenmmike
01-12-2004, 05:15 PM
gear down if i think i can pull off a good landing and have a sort of functioning engine what i mean is do if have time to do this and terrain is favorable....besides that you can never get enough practice landing.....gear up for anything else...

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DONB3397
01-12-2004, 08:17 PM
I read somewhere that pilots in the 4th FG were concerned about the radiator intake/scoop under the Mustang because it caused hard, sudden stops on 'belly' landings. Their P-47s and Spits could be landed, gear up, with less damage (to them).

In FB, flips and collapsed gears are usually survivable, so if you can get the plane slowed enough to flare out above the ground why not try wheels down.

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ST_Spyke0
01-12-2004, 09:19 PM
wheels up, like they say before cuz of risk of looping over

FuryFighter
01-13-2004, 12:30 AM
I'd say gear up as well as if your simulating a damaged plane then it may have busted controls and the gear may not come down anyways. And seeing the prop bend is cool too hehe

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Rajvosa
01-13-2004, 12:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DONB3397:
I read somewhere that pilots in the 4th FG were concerned about the radiator intake/scoop under the Mustang because it caused hard, sudden stops on 'belly' landings. Their P-47s and Spits could be landed, gear up, with less damage (to them).

In FB, flips and collapsed gears are usually survivable, so if you can get the plane slowed enough to flare out above the ground why not try wheels down.

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/3fe77b7e_1812a/bc/Images/Sig---1.jpg?BC3Vi__AWSamLZQo <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, that was in theory, but was the scoop really causing hard ******ations? I mean, did it plow hard into the ground and stopped the P-51 directly, or was it torn off? Any ideas anyone? If it really stopped the plane quickly, than it might have been an advantage, since you want to stop as quickly as possible. And since the scoop was well back,´it shouldn't cause the plane to ground-loop...

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Old_Canuck
01-13-2004, 01:04 AM
You can get away with wheels down quite often in FB if you have enough glide speed.

This reminds me of a dead-end-conversation I had a long time ago with a flight instructor before my first solo over part of the Pacific Ocean:

Question: "if the engine quits (fix-wheeled Cessna) what's the procedure for ditching in the water?"
Answer: "don't ditch in the water."
Question: "But what if it really happens .. do you try to dip a wing just before the stall or what?"
Answer: "don't ditch in the water."

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."

Rajvosa
01-13-2004, 01:08 AM
Question: "if the engine quits (fix-wheeled Cessna) what's the procedure for ditching in the water?"
Answer: "don't ditch in the water."
Question: "But what if it really happens .. do you try to dip a wing just before the stall or what?"
Answer: "don't ditch in the water."

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."[/QUOTE]

Sort of a Catch-22 situation here, OC!

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Old_Canuck
01-13-2004, 01:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Sort of a Catch-22 situation here,

Golf GTI Edition 2.0 16v<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is ... would still like to know the answer though after all these 30 or so years. A fix-wheeled Cessna would obviously flip over nose first when ditching in the water but maybe ... by dipping a wing? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."

ELEM
01-13-2004, 01:22 AM
"Ditching" is the act of a forced landing on water and should always be done with landing gear retracted. If you have the choice.

In the case of a forced or emergency landing on land it is at the pilots discrestion depending on the terrain he is faced with. If at all possible the first choice is to make a normal wheeled landing.

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

jamieandnici
01-13-2004, 02:40 AM
Just a quick note. If pilots of all countries were told to crash land gear up belly down, was the aircraft recoverable afterwards (more so if they landed in friendly territory)? Was the plane therefore mendable?, regardless of its bent airscrew and prop and the wear on the engine, or was the plane considered a Write Off, etc?

I'm asking because although airforces wanted their pilots to stay alive, if an aircraft was able to land with minimum damage to it surely it was better to land gear down (if they could and the surface was smooth enough to allow that), especially when taking in the costs to build and repair the aircraft etc?

I have seen photos of downed Bf 109's in the English fields during the BoB with gears up, although the fields looked smooth and some have landed on relatively tamed land. Could these aircraft be fixed (if their engines were still ok). Mind you, crash landings and the bending the props sounds very harsh on the engine and I doubt with the sudden stopping of the prop it couldn't of done much good to the engine!!

SpinSpinSugar
01-13-2004, 02:54 AM
You've got me interested about the Cessna now, Canuck. Rules of thumb are muddy at best on ditchings. Any civvie pilots/instructors on here care to comment?

Cheers,

SSS

JG5_Emil
01-13-2004, 03:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Old_Canuck:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Sort of a Catch-22 situation here,

Golf GTI Edition 2.0 16v<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is ... would still like to know the answer though after all these 30 or so years. A fix-wheeled Cessna would obviously flip over nose first when ditching in the water but maybe ... by dipping a wing? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



In this situation you should go inverted before the ditch...this way when you flip over you will 'be right side up'.

Hope this answers your question....and good luck!

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MiloMorai
01-13-2004, 04:17 AM
As someone said, ditching is the act of landing(???) on water. For the P-51, and Hurricane, this was dangerous because of the rad scoop. On land, the underslung rad acted as a collapsible structure(like on modern cars). It was not recommended to ditch a B-24 either because the bomb bay doors would collapse and the in-rushing water would break the a/c's back.

Not knowing if that nice field you decided to land in had any holes in it, it would be preferred to land u/c up. Catching that hole could flip you on your back and being trapped in an damaged a/c with fuel dripping out, is a BBQ waiting to happen. If belly landing in friendly territory, switch the engine off before touch-down. That way only a prop would most likely need replacing, and maybe a reduction gearcase. A turning prop meant a scrap engine since the crankshaft would have broken(whiplash shock) and done bad thing to the block.

ELEM
01-13-2004, 04:48 AM
"Ditching" is the act of a forced landing on water and should always be done with landing gear retracted. If you have the choice.

In the case of a forced or emergency landing on land it is at the pilots discrestion depending on the terrain he is faced with. If at all possible the first choice is to make a normal wheeled landing.

A forced landing is exactly that, it's forced on you,(ie. Engine failure) you're definatly going down and you have limited time to prepare.

An emergency landing (ie. Engine misfiring)means you have more time to prepare and select a suitable site for a normal landing.

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

Cajun76
01-13-2004, 06:29 AM
I look forward to your movie, Aardvark. As far as I-16s landing, I've seen plenty of pics of I-16s with their tails in the air. I read a story on the forum once, about a Russian pilot (ace?) talking about landing the I-16 in a hurry. As you know, the landing gear was handcranked up and down. This Russian confided to the interveiwer that he and some others always carried a pair of wire cutters with them in the cockpit. If a quick wheels down were required, they would cut the cable, let the gear drop, and rock the wings to set the gear in the locks. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I don't think this was per tech data, though.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

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p1ngu666
01-13-2004, 06:52 AM
wish we could do that in fb http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
planes explode/fall apart too easy imo on hte ground in fb atm

TX-EcoDragon
01-13-2004, 10:21 AM
I love writing a big post and then seeing:

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DONB3397
01-13-2004, 10:41 AM
I think this is another one of those "FB vs. Real World" discussions. In FB, flips and bent props aren't killers. So, if the terrain is flat, why not try wheels down?

In real situations, I recall that pilots were told wheels-up was better on unknown fields. But fliers were often killed by hard stops (on the edge of a ditch, or a dangling appendage--scoop or door, etc.) when a plane "bellied in" even though the airframe was relatively intact. One cause was hitting the gunsight with only a leather helmet to protect them.

Message to OC: Don't ditch in the water.

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TX-EcoDragon
01-13-2004, 01:39 PM
Some aircraft types did predicate a certain technique over the other, such as the P-51 generally being a wheels down affair. And about that post about stopping fast being a good thing, no it's a bad thing! Energy Dissipation is good, but it must occur over time or the pilot will not survive, a landing is safe because the energy of flight dissipates gradually over time.

In general pilots are taught to evaluate the landing surface and make the call. If the surface is firm and flat enough then obviously gear down is best. Think of a mowed alfalfa field as being a good time for gear down. It it has been raining enough to saturate the ground then the gear will dig in, reducing control of the aircraft, and probably causing it to nose over. If your in a monoplane this is usually bad. If your in a biplane some pilots prefer it as after nosing over the seat back can take the G's caused by deceleration, instead of the pilots face on the panel or glass. And in addition many tailwheel pilots will also deliberatly ground loop their aircraft so as to better position their body (against the seat back) to handle the G loads that may be imposed on them. If you were landing on a bed of boulders you might also go gear up to slide across them without getting hung up, but you might also think that gear down would be advantageous as the gear could be sheared off as a means to dissipate energy. If it seems like I am not giving an answer it is because generally pilots are trained that there isn't ONE answer, but that they must decide based on the aircraft type, and the surface type and condition.
In the situation you mention, on the banks of a river, you would want to evaluate if it is sandy and wet, or if it is more hard surfaced, most likely I would bet that it is soft, and take the belly landing approach. That might allow the aircraft to slide for a longer distance, giving it a more gradual deceleration.
When landing in a dense stand of trees pilots will usually go gear down, and aim between trees that are spaced such that the gear and wings can shear off and absorb some energy in the process instead of the fuselage and its occupants taking the hit.


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[This message was edited by TX-EcoDragon on Tue January 13 2004 at 12:55 PM.]

Piaggio108
01-15-2004, 07:06 PM
gear up.

Aardvark892
01-16-2004, 02:35 AM
Lots of very good information! Thanks, folks! For your info, it'll be a belly landing. I really want to try to do a 1937-1940 Sino-Japanese scenario. Thanks again, you really helped!

SSgt Tim Schuster, USAF
8th MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, ROK

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Bull-Dog.
01-16-2004, 06:02 AM
Ive tried to land gear down many times on all sorts of terrain.I ended up upside down every time no matter what I did to try to prevent it happening. I will only emergency land gear up now (not so embarrassing)

Bull-Dog.

jetset_
01-16-2004, 08:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DONB3397:
I read somewhere that pilots in the 4th FG were concerned about the radiator intake/scoop under the Mustang because it caused hard, sudden stops on 'belly' landings.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rough belly landing maybe, I would imagine the radiator scoop would collaspe fairly easy under the weight of the mustang fuselage.

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jetset_
01-16-2004, 01:44 PM
I sent an e-mail to Punchy Powell a 352nd FG pilot the virtual group stays in touch with. Here's what he had to say!

"Jeff:
Since I only made one belly landing, and that was with my plane on fire, let me say that the scoop never came to my mind, maybe because I never had time to think about it. I was only about 300 feet up, wheels up and on fire and going into some trees. I broke the Golden Rule of not crashing straight ahead because I was going into those trees. I banked it just enough to avoid the trees, felt it beginning to stall and leveled off just as I hit the ground. Fortunately, the field had been plowed the day before and the soft dirt flying over the plane as it scooted along on the belly knocked the flames down long enough for me to get out and run--and run I did.

Anyway, I don't think anybody gave any thought to the scoop because it would flatten out as soon as you hit the ground anyway. Different story if you had to ditch in the North Sea, however, as the scoop would probably flip you over. Don't recall any of our guys doing this as we had all decided to bailout rather than ditch anyway."

Punchy made a miraculous escape from his burning P-51B on July 18, 1944 after engine failure just after take off. More in the links below.

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/powell.html

http://www.starduststudios.com/bluepj.htm

http://www.ia.wvu.edu/~magazine/spring99/htmlfiles/bobpowell.html

&lt;S&gt;

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MiloMorai
01-16-2004, 01:57 PM
Thanks for confirming what I said in my post on pg1 jetset.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif