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View Full Version : Staying and fighting with FW190s



Mike8686
09-08-2004, 06:01 AM
Ok, everyone says its a bad idea and I sort of agree, I believe with the FWs its suprise them, hit, and run. I only stay and fight when my energy is much greater, when theres teamates about, and when my first run seems to have crippled them enough that they wont fight back. I usually dont attempt to down A/C at equal E tho, (when I first started to fly the FW I would, and soon learned my lesson :/), what about the Dora tho? I've been flying it more often lately and wow, she's a pleasure to fly http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif! I mean I know its always best to surprise the enemy and use teamwork, but say you get into a situation where its 1v1 at equal E vs nother A/C. Is it now reasonable, with the Dora, to fight it? Or is it still stupid idea?

Mike8686
09-08-2004, 06:01 AM
Ok, everyone says its a bad idea and I sort of agree, I believe with the FWs its suprise them, hit, and run. I only stay and fight when my energy is much greater, when theres teamates about, and when my first run seems to have crippled them enough that they wont fight back. I usually dont attempt to down A/C at equal E tho, (when I first started to fly the FW I would, and soon learned my lesson :/), what about the Dora tho? I've been flying it more often lately and wow, she's a pleasure to fly http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif! I mean I know its always best to surprise the enemy and use teamwork, but say you get into a situation where its 1v1 at equal E vs nother A/C. Is it now reasonable, with the Dora, to fight it? Or is it still stupid idea?

robban75
09-08-2004, 06:21 AM
A Dora flying at dogfight speeds doesn't have to be an easy kill, but remember, if you beat your opponent it is all thanks to superior flying ability,, or just plain luck. At dogfight speeds in FB/AEP almost all planes can match the D-9 in rollrate and almost all other planes will outturn it, especially in the vertical. With combat flaps the D-9 can turn quite well, but against a skilled TnB adversary flying a TnB fighter, La-7, Spitfire or Yak, I'd suggest you try diving away and build distance if you can, eventually he'll get bored and turn around. This will leave you with good time to cool your engine and climb to alt.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."

NorrisMcWhirter
09-08-2004, 06:23 AM
Hi,

I just stick with what I know - hit and run.

Besides increasing self-preservation, you amuse myself with people who complain about the running away...er...long extension...a complaint I liken to a 190 pilot saying, "Boo-hoo..why are you turnfighting? I can't follow you in turns"

The D9 does offer some TF capability but this may mean slowing down and leaving yourself exposed to attack from other quarters (other bandits) so I avoid it.

Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

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'Bugs? What bugs?'
'AAA steals online kills, crash landing if good landing but out of fuel, muzzle flashes, kill given for planes that have landed OK, AI steals offline kills, gauges not working, Spitfire never overheats, FW190 view, P63 damage model, weird collision modelling...'
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Mike8686
09-08-2004, 06:46 AM
But it is then possible to stay in the fight and energy fight (If I would to stay I'd rarely TnB, I'd rather E fight)

Red_Storm
09-08-2004, 07:02 AM
Yes. I've been flying the Dora since it was an AI plane and I say, if you're skilled enough, it's a rather good turn fighter. But you have to fly it on its envelope (slightly beyond it, even).

---

OldMan____
09-08-2004, 07:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
A Dora flying at dogfight speeds doesn't have to be an easy kill, but remember, if you beat your opponent it is all thanks to superior flying ability,, or just plain luck. At dogfight speeds in FB/AEP almost all planes can match the D-9 in rollrate and almost all other planes will outturn it, especially in the vertical. With combat flaps the D-9 can turn quite well, but against a skilled TnB adversary flying a TnB fighter, La-7, Spitfire or Yak, I'd suggest you try diving away and build distance if you can, eventually he'll get bored and turn around. This will leave you with good time to cool your engine and climb to alt.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what o YOU call combat speed? I call combat speed &gt;= 450kph..at worse 400+ and at that speed very few planes maneuver better than dora. Just remember to not make more than 90 degree turn.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

tfu_iain1
09-08-2004, 07:34 AM
try diving away, except from the Jug. you have better elevator response than most at high speed in the 190, and a p-51 following you is likely to rip its wings off if the driver isnt experienced on it

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same in any country."

jurinko
09-08-2004, 07:37 AM
you can´t stay and fight in Fw - if you spoil first or second pass, you can only run away. Even starting with alt advantage, each maneuver bleeds your energy off and your enemy is usually an airplane which gains 200m alt after each hard 360?C turn and nose point up.

---------------------
Letka_13/Liptow @ HL

OldMan____
09-08-2004, 08:16 AM
Not true.. I stay and fight most of time and have a pretty good kill/death ration with FW190 this way. You only need not commit to CIRLE FIGHT!! That 4!@#$!@$$@! combat technick is not suited to FW190 (or aANY plane.. since any tatic is better than this one)

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

JG14_Josf
09-08-2004, 08:23 AM
Mike8686,

Energy fighting requires that either one plane has a performance advantage or one pilot has a performance advantage.

It is very difficult for me to separate plane performance from pilot performance when flying on-line.

Off line is a whole different story since the A.I. are predictable but even in that case it is difficult to separate the capabilities of the flight model from the A.I. model.

For example: I can energy fight A.I. Spitfires with FWs off-line because I know how to trick the A.I. into burning too much energy. This proves to me that the FW can energy fight Spitfires but only if the opponent falls into the trap.

What remains is to identify if the FW has any energy gaining performance and at which part of the speed envelope this advantge exists.

In the past the FWs had a large energy performance advantage over the P-47s and that was sad.

Now the margin is closing, I think, and the FW - P-47 fight is becoming a very good; one on one fight, for me. Then again I just may suck at flying the FWs and the P-47 guys I find on-line may just be better at flying their virtual favorite planes.

It is difficult to quantify relative energy performance and separate that from pilot performance while dog fighting in an on-line session, but that is not to say it is difficult to judge relative energy states and from there at least some experience can be gained toward identifying if the FWs can stay and fight.

Do you see what I mean?

For example:

I like to fly around with radiators open at 100 percent throttle and find opponents that are at the same altitude or below. I fly with wingmen whenever possible. My idea is to keep up the fight at continuous throttle settings and then at the moment I see my energy advantage being lost (the opponent can gain on me in level or climbing flight) then I drop the nose, push the throttle foward and clean up the air flow. When alone I am dragging for practice. When I am with a wingman I am pulling a target drone.

If over time while flying an FW I only find P-47s that can't climb on me or close the gap in level flight during many fights with many planes then it may be reasonable to assume that the FW has something going for it in relative energy performance over, at least, the P-47.
Keep in mind that if you find a P-47 up high in a dog fight server you had better pull the straps on tight because this one is not going to be an easy opponent.
P-47 pilots are, in my experience, usually the best opponents, the hardest to shoot down, and the least likely to fall for wingman drag maneuvers.

The new patch has changed a few things and my estimate so far is that there is still an energy performance advantage the FW has over at least one other plane; the P-47.

If you lose against a P-47 in and energy fight I still think it is safe to say that your opponent is a better pilot, you made too many mistakes, or lady luck was not on your side.

The game has advanced in refining flight models to better simulate the history of WWII air combat, at least the history that is available to me.

Stay and fight only as long as the energy margin remains in your favor. Don't roll the dice and go for that last ditch effort unless you are either very good or very lucky because chances are your plane doesn't have what it takes to stay and fight.

If you get in close with the FW against an equal energy state opponent the chances are the enemy plane will be able to turn around without losing as much energy and the energy fight will deteriorate in favor of the opponent. The FW won't be able to climb or dive to gain distance nor gain relative energy at least not until the opponet reaches Vmax and only if his Vmax is slower than yours.

This may have changed from the last patch.

What would really be nice is two things:

1. EM charts for each new game patch.

2. Track files from the guys who do manage to stay and fight.

Since I don't have any track file for the new patch I guess my opinion is not very valuable (except to me) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

robban75
09-08-2004, 01:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
what o YOU call combat speed? I call combat speed &gt;= 450kph..at worse 400+<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

400-450km/h is a perfect combat speed, below that the Dora is not the ideal turnfighter. Unfortunately for the 190 most planes can roll at 160-180deg/sec at these speeds.

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

Oberleutnant Oskar-Walter Romm thoughts on his aircraft.

"I found the Fw 190D-9 to be greatly superior to those of my opponents. During dogfights at altitudes of between about 10,000 and 24,000ft, usual when meeting the Russians, I found that I could pull the D-9 into a tight turn and still retain my speed advantage. In the descent the Dora-9 picked up speed much more rapidly than the A type; in the dive it could leave the Russian Yak-3 and Yak-9 fighters standing."

BfHeFwMe
09-08-2004, 03:59 PM
Bunch of flap dropping ******s is what they are. I love Fw's, they're delicious roasted on a cannon fire.