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Mike8686
09-01-2004, 08:10 AM
I'm having a real hassle aiming with those things! Any tips? Also at what range do u usually start to fire? Please provide advice on usage of both 30mm and 20mm nose cannon.

Mike8686
09-01-2004, 08:10 AM
I'm having a real hassle aiming with those things! Any tips? Also at what range do u usually start to fire? Please provide advice on usage of both 30mm and 20mm nose cannon.

JG54_Arnie
09-01-2004, 08:29 AM
Practising is the only way, we can say alot of things, but you need to get a feel for the guns, start on bombers and when fighting against fighters, watch your tracks back and see where you fire, this is very usefull in finding out what corrections are needed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

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F19_Ob
09-01-2004, 08:53 AM
The 15mm cannon on 109F2 is the one wich require less lead of the german fighter cannons, although the 20mm is quite close in trajectory. G√ľnther Rall liked the 15mm cannon.

The 30mm is a different ballgame when it comes to deflectionshooting and requires some more lead, often more than u think.

Online u normally have to pull great lead when u are in a fight with an enemy who is aware of your presence, and he (the enemy) will likely give u the hardest angles possible , 90 degre's often.
The lead required depends on the distance to target and how fast its moving.


The best way I know of to practise with the 30mm is in quickmission, and to only shoot with the cannon. Online I shoot all guns at same time but I never espect anything from the mg's, and I belive that is a part of the mentality required.
The 30mm cannon is rather fast firing and often its hard to squeeze off just one shell. This fastfiring in my mind makes it lot more effective than for example the p39 cannon.

Remember to record your practice so u can see where the rounds went (infront or behind).

In time, and with repetition u will notice and recognize (remember) the distances to fire, and u will also "feel" if the enemy is fast or slow in his turn.

After 1-2 hours practice I normally hit frequently with single bops from almost any angle and reasonably often from long distances (400m).
I never do single bops online though, but let the enemy fly into a burst.
As often as I can I maneuver to a position and roll my ac so the enemy fly into to my burst from the side, so i see him coming in the front+side view, instead of pursuits where i must pull lead so he dissappears under my nose.
Both tecniques are equally diffucult, but the first one u normally only achieve by thinking ahead in the fight, knowing what the enemys likeliest next move will be.


U learn a lot from tracks.
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Chuck_Older
09-01-2004, 09:00 AM
I find them hard to aim when I am going slowly. Try firing when you're going fast. No kidding, seems to work for me

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dieg777
09-01-2004, 09:06 AM
Some things I have used to help-
start with setting covergence. Start at 300 and work down. the better pilots recommend 150.
Start qmb against bombers with their guns disabled then work down to fighters. At end of mission record track and play back 3 times once normally in cockpit - once external F2 and once external from bandit Control+ F2 and use your mouse to pan round and watch your shots and see where they go. I used to fire high and left a lot and this helped me narrow it down. Make sure you get close and use rudder for line up. dont pray and spray you dont have a big load- use short sharp bursts. 30mm seem very slow and seem to fly funny -stick with 20mm

Good luck

GUNNER
Gunner get a decent signature
Gunner learn to fly
Gunner learn to shoot
Gunner not run out of bullets just as I get on his six

F19_Ob
09-01-2004, 09:12 AM
Observe that the convergence dieg777 is talking abot refers to the wingcannon equipped 109 E4's and the ones with wingpods.

on singlecannon 109's I havent noticed any difference 100 or 900m.
I tested to see if there were elevation involved, but no. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

NonWonderDog
09-01-2004, 09:28 AM
Convergence with nose cannons is a bit confusing. It doesn't seem to affect elevation on first glance, but I set up a quick mission with a Me-262 against a bunch of gooney birds to test it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

With convergence set at 300 I couldn't hit *anything.* With convergence set at 100 I could down the entire flight with one pass.

It definitely does something, although I'm not quite sure what. Unless it's all in my head, convergence settings defintely change either gun elevation or gunsight range.

So....experiment.

dieg777
09-01-2004, 09:34 AM
Interesting input F19_Ob I wondered how or if elevation was modeled. I thought that lower convergence would lead to greater drop in front of nose.
I set my convergence to 300 after playing around a LOT. I find it helps my discipline and I dont fire too early. If I set it lower I tend to collide or overshoot so it works for me but there are many others who will have their own prefrence and who can probably fly better http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif It all comes down to personal practice and preference I suppose

s

GUNNER
Gunner get a decent signature
Gunner learn to fly
Gunner learn to shoot
Gunner not run out of bullets just as I get on his six

LStarosta
09-01-2004, 09:37 AM
Convergance is both on the horizontal and vertical plane. Thing is, the single nose cannon has nothing to converge TO. But in planes like the P38 or the Me262, where there are multiple guns in the nose, it is still useful to set convergence, even if only on the vertical plane.

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F19_Ob
09-01-2004, 09:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dieg777:
Interesting input F19_Ob I wondered how or if elevation was modeled. I thought that lower convergence would lead to greater drop in front of nose.



http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif It all comes down to personal practice and preference I suppose

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



That was my thought also, and I agree also withe personal preference http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Oh and should add that I only tested it on the 109 and a few others with engine cannons. Perhaps for example the bf 110 and the p38 wich also have guns in the nose (but not through prop hub) do have elevation, and wingmounted mg's I have never (strangely) tested if there is elevation.....Hmmmm, I'm getting lazy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

p1ngu666
09-01-2004, 09:46 AM
150 is good for 109
ive found 250 more effective on the 110 mind, that could just be chance tho

any good convergances for the p38? im UTTERLY useless in that bird http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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jugent
09-01-2004, 10:13 AM
Select a russian plane with shvak-gun.
Set the arcade mode to 1, set fly quick combat mission. select option so you can se the air-crafts from outside. Set simulator-speed to 1/4 when you are about to fire. After you shoot pause the game and see where you hit.
When you make the enemy a look like a porquepin, select a german plane.
Dont look at "old anecdotes" from history about german firepower etc etc.
The settings of this game can in best case be similar to how it was during WWII

IL2-chuter
09-01-2004, 12:19 PM
Isn't the 15mm version (of MG151/15/20) solid shot? I thought they went to 20mm for explosive rounds, hence the original MG (MachinenGewehr, as opposed to MachinenKanone) moniker. How different is the performance? Anyone done tests? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

"I fly only Full Real in Il2 Forgotten Battles." -Mark Donohue

F19_Ob
09-01-2004, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IL2-chuter:
Isn't the 15mm version (of MG151/15/20) solid shot? I thought they went to 20mm for explosive rounds, hence the original MG (MachinenGewehr, as opposed to MachinenKanone) moniker. How different is the performance? Anyone done tests? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

"I fly only Full Real in Il2 Forgotten Battles." -Mark Donohue<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He he....... mg or cannon, sometimes its not easy, but generally the exploding round should come from a cannon but on the otherhand the german 13mm mg's had explosive rounds aswell.
so it really was an evoulution thingy.



Here is a good place to read about ww2 ammo
the 15mmm (cannon/weapon?) included.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-am.html

another interesting one
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[This message was edited by F19_Ob on Wed September 01 2004 at 12:17 PM.]

Multimetal
09-01-2004, 02:03 PM
For high deflection shots, you also have to get used to shooting "blind", or under your nose. I find that in a high-deflection turn, if you pull your sights through the enemy and keep going until you lose them under the nose and then shoot, it's usually just about right. There's nothing better than firing blind, and having your enemy come back into view smoking and flaming, or even better, in pieces! I'm a grouse hunter in real life, and spend a lot of time shooting trap and sporting clays to keep in shape for bird season. Shooting clay targets with a shotgun is very similar to aerial gunnery, in fact I believe that in the U.S. most fighter training schools had a trap/skeet range to teach the basics of aerial gunnery. It's amazing how much practice in real life can help your virtual gunnery, and vice versa!

WTE_Galway
09-01-2004, 05:39 PM
also

always remember with a 109 on full throttle the plane develops a substantial yaw that needs to be countered by centring the ball with a good kick of right rudder

if you fire with a 109 on full throttle with no rudder you will see your tracer does not fly straight with tthe gunsight .. in fact it can diverge as much as 15 degrees to the right of target

best solution .. trim for elevator and centre the ball before setting up a firing solution then fire a quick burst of mg and adjust for yaw before firing main weapons

J.J_Ramone
09-02-2004, 02:46 AM
Hi Galway,

Could you explain this more in detail? You are saying that the torque effect is procucing yaw, making the rounds "wander"? This is an effect I have noticed too, that the smoke trails are spread in the vertical.

Could this be compensated with opposite rudder? And how does the ball look like before the rudder compensation? Sligthly to the left, I assume.

Thanks,
Johnny_Ramone

IL2-chuter
09-02-2004, 12:45 PM
Don't forget the 109 had a cambered fin (wing cross section) that produced more lateral force (to the left) the faster the plane went, and the neutral point of the flettner tab (power assist tab) could be set to increase (or decrease) this effect (set to pilot prefs, not in game). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"I fly only Full Real in Il2 Forgotten Battles." -Mark Donohue

WTE_Galway
09-02-2004, 05:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J.J_Ramone:
Hi Galway,

Could you explain this more in detail? You are saying that the torque effect is procucing yaw, making the rounds "wander"? This is an effect I have noticed too, that the smoke trails are spread in the vertical.

Could this be compensated with opposite rudder? And how does the ball look like before the rudder compensation? Sligthly to the left, I assume.

Thanks,
Johnny_Ramone<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The ball is uaually to the right slightly and your shots tend to go to the left of the plane .. judicous right rudder to centre the ball will put the shots on the crosshairs, though its probably more effective to centre using the tracer itself

Its easier to just experiment than talk about .. to see an exaggerated effect of yaw just jump in any plane and fire wit no rudder, full left and full right rudder and watch where the shots go relative to the gunsight