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Revi_killa
04-17-2004, 07:02 AM
Hi,
em I wrong and alone with my opinion, that effectivenes of Spit´s cannons Hispano is too high? They power is near to 30mm axis cannons. It´s not unusual cut off enemy wings with 2 shells (one shell make 3 holes in wings). They were better than axis 20mm cannons but was differncies so crucial?
My second question is about FW´s performance. Stall charatkteristics and turn-rate wasn´t so good but veterans talk about pleasant control - in this game FW is not pleasant for control, it´s very unstable and quickly lost energy. He was excellent in vertical dogfight, but we can use only careful BnZ tactic. Changes in fockewulf´s FM during different version of game (the last is in new beta05) maybe indicate some developer´s problems in conception of this plane. Finally, i never see simulator with properly modeled fw´s flight: with slightly inclined nose, leading to good front visibility.

Thanx to developers for best game and enthusianism and sry for my enghlishhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
S!

Revi_killa
04-17-2004, 07:02 AM
Hi,
em I wrong and alone with my opinion, that effectivenes of Spit´s cannons Hispano is too high? They power is near to 30mm axis cannons. It´s not unusual cut off enemy wings with 2 shells (one shell make 3 holes in wings). They were better than axis 20mm cannons but was differncies so crucial?
My second question is about FW´s performance. Stall charatkteristics and turn-rate wasn´t so good but veterans talk about pleasant control - in this game FW is not pleasant for control, it´s very unstable and quickly lost energy. He was excellent in vertical dogfight, but we can use only careful BnZ tactic. Changes in fockewulf´s FM during different version of game (the last is in new beta05) maybe indicate some developer´s problems in conception of this plane. Finally, i never see simulator with properly modeled fw´s flight: with slightly inclined nose, leading to good front visibility.

Thanx to developers for best game and enthusianism and sry for my enghlishhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
S!

kubanloewe
04-17-2004, 08:11 AM
You is wrong, we have russian testdata.
be sure; school physics is not enough...
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crazyivan1970
04-17-2004, 08:19 AM
Very funny and conrags on having beta05 "new user with 1 post"

I thought, i think, it should - no data found - oh well.

V!
Regards,

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

p1ngu666
04-17-2004, 08:19 AM
i dont find teh 20mm hispano that effective on the spit,
found the 30mm mk108 a good dewinger online yesterday

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Willey
04-17-2004, 09:35 AM
You better do not post about anything which might be wrong with the information you've got any beta versions that you shouldn't have.

Revi_killa
04-17-2004, 09:54 AM
To kubanloewe:
I never seen any testdata, which developers talk about more than three years. Maybe Im not good snifer dog. Every month im trying read two books on theme 1939-1945 air war. I don´t have any other source, sry. About FW charakteristic try Brown´s book Wings of Luftwafe. He was a british testpilot.

[This message was edited by Revi_killa on Sat April 17 2004 at 09:15 AM.]

Revi_killa
04-17-2004, 10:08 AM
To Crazy Ivan: Be cool, I dont have beta. But my best friend does. And problem is not about beta05.

"thought, i think, it should" I never used this words.
"- no data found - oh well." Show me your data. Pleas.

You don´t told me any counter-arguments. Why is your reply so arogant? Cause I wrote some critics on your work? You are best, but u can be better. And re-modeling of planes in every patch(!!!) is FACT. Why, why when you have so good data sources?

Revi_killa
04-17-2004, 10:10 AM
To Crazy Ivan: Be cool, I dont have beta. But my best friend does. And problem is not about beta05.

"thought, i think, it should" I never used this words.
"- no data found - oh well." Show me your data. Pleas.

You don´t told me any counter-arguments. Why is your reply so arogant? Cause I wrote some critics on your work? You are best, but u can be better. And re-modeling of planes in every patch(!!!) is FACT. Why, why when you have so good data sources?

Revi_killa
04-17-2004, 10:13 AM
To kubanloewe:
I never seen any testdata, which developers talk about more than three years. Maybe Im not good snifer dog. Every month im trying read two books on theme 1939-1945 air war. I don´t have any other source, sry. About FW charakteristic try Brown´s book Wings of Luftwafe. He was a british testpilot.[/QUOTE]

VW-IceFire
04-17-2004, 02:47 PM
Go read some gun sites...20mm Hispano is quite a bit bigger and supposedly contains more high explosive yield than the MG151/20 does.

The downfall of the Hispano over the MG151/20 is obviously that planes like the Bf 109 and the FW190 have many more seconds of slightly (emphasis here) less effective cannon ammunition. The Spitfire Mark Vb has 60 rounds per gun and I think something like 6-7 seconds of fire time (or less) which is very low. Any accomplished Spitfire pilot in this game will tell you that every single shot counts.

As it stands in 2.0...I'm obviously not lucky enough to have the Beta versions of the latest patch...all cannons are weaker than they should be. I would hope that the disparity between the two is somewhat shrunk in that the Hispano hits a bit harder than present but the MG151/20, the ShVAK, and others are back to their usual levels.

Comparison to a 30mm cannon is difficult to make and even more difficult to make because of the current state of their effectiveness in the game (specifically the MK108 - the MK103 is brutally effective). When that changes then we'll see that.

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Vipez-
04-17-2004, 04:09 PM
What? It should be the other way around.. Hispano may have more kinetic punch, but its definately should not have more explosive than german shells.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif


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LuftLuver
04-17-2004, 04:19 PM
Ah yes, standard Luftie routine in action.

1 - Create new username

2 - Complain about 190/109 FM or DM using anecdotal stories

3 - Use curiously botched English

4 - Point out said English

If I am wrong, then "as you were". But I smell something fishy here.

WWMaxGunz
04-17-2004, 05:22 PM
Vote early and vote often?

VW-IceFire
04-17-2004, 08:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vipez-:
What? It should be the other way around.. Hispano may have more kinetic punch, but its definately should not have more explosive than german shells.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
http://www.leosk.org/tiedostot/sig-pieni.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh yes my bad:
Hispano power TNT equivalent = 0.012
151/20 MG power TNT equivalent = 0.0186

I thought I had read otherwise but probably mistaken on that point. Nonethess here's a brief comparison (based on this site: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html:

MG151/20
Cartridge: 20x82
Rate of Fire: 700-750
Muzzle Velocity: 725

Hispano Mark II (mounted on all fighters we have so far - Hispano Mark V only on the Tempest and Meteor)
Cartridge: 20x110
Rate of Fire: 600
Muzzle Velocity: 880

So the Hispano fires a bigger round (in length) at a slightly lower rate of fire but with a higher muzzle velocity. These are but some of a multitude of factors but you can see why the Hispano hits quite a bit harder. Indeed I was wrong on the explosive bit...the MG151/20 has that better.

For interests sake the Hispano Mark V has the same fire rate as the MG151/20 and virtually all other stats identical to the Mark II so that'll be a heavy hitter http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Enofinu
04-18-2004, 04:18 PM
speed of the round has (almost)nothing to do with damage when using HE ammo, it makes hitthing the target much easier. and mg151/20 has some more explosives in MG round than that 18g of TNT, like does hispano round have, explosives used are something different thatn TNT.

he round in mg151/20 is weaker than in hispano, but MG round in mg151/20 is much stronger, when hispano got better AP round.

clint-ruin
04-18-2004, 04:45 PM
The biggest obvious difference between the Hispano and MG151/20 in FB is actually due to the increased number [and power] of AP rounds in the hizooka. HE effectiveness in FB is basically limited to splash damage from fragments, fuel tank fires, etc. No aircraft skin fires or overpressure effects are modelled in any version of FB. Fragment and incendiary damage only. That's a big chunk of the damage HE rounds are good at doing elimiated straight off.

AP rounds will quite often cut an engine out of its housing or set it aflame even from rear aspect shots, and the APs from the Hispano are both more frequent and more powerful.

Easiest demo is to simply take up a Yak9T and see what happens when you hit the rudder dead on with the HE, then the AP round on different aircraft. The HE will quite often elimitate the surfaces surrounding the point of impact - rudder, tailplane, elevators and/or stabilisers, with a small chance of taking off the fuselage section. The AP shot will quite often take off the entire fuselage or travel through the pilot and come out through the engine afterwards.

HE rounds spread their damage out in about a 3/4 sphere from the point of impact. AP rounds do damage in a straight line from the point of impact. Different rounds work better against different surfaces and shot angles.

The other big difference in perceived effectiveness is that every MG151/20 round produces the same contact explosion graphic regardless of what type of round actually hits, whereas the Hispanos only show -any- impact effect for the HEs. AP rounds just leave a tiny puff of small debris which will quite often go unnoticed in the cloud of debris that comes out from the HE effects.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

VW-IceFire
04-18-2004, 04:59 PM
Well said.

So that pretty much all explains why a Hispano does more damage than a MG151/20. But again I say that its quite balanced since the largest ammo capacity on a Hispano that I know of is on the Tempest with 200 rounds per gun. The Typhoon is 120, the Hurricane IIC has something between 80 and 110 (I can't remember), the Spitfire C and E types have 120 and the Spitfire B type has 60 rounds per gun.

Compair that to the massive ammo load of the FW190's that are in the 200 to 300 rpg (I don't actually remember the specific figur) with a much longer fire time means that while you are doing perhaps less damage per shot you also have alot more shots to adjust aim with or use on another target.

It all evens out http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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WUAF_Co_Hero
04-20-2004, 05:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
The biggest obvious difference between the Hispano and MG151/20 in FB is actually due to the increased number [and power] of AP rounds in the hizooka. HE effectiveness in FB is basically limited to splash damage from fragments, fuel tank fires, etc. No aircraft skin fires or overpressure effects are modelled in any version of FB. Fragment and incendiary damage only. That's a big chunk of the damage HE rounds are good at doing elimiated straight off.

AP rounds will quite often cut an engine out of its housing or set it aflame even from rear aspect shots, and the APs from the Hispano are both more frequent and more powerful.

Easiest demo is to simply take up a Yak9T and see what happens when you hit the rudder dead on with the HE, then the AP round on different aircraft. The HE will quite often elimitate the surfaces surrounding the point of impact - rudder, tailplane, elevators and/or stabilisers, with a small chance of taking off the fuselage section. The AP shot will quite often take off the entire fuselage or travel through the pilot and come out through the engine afterwards.

HE rounds spread their damage out in about a 3/4 sphere from the point of impact. AP rounds do damage in a straight line from the point of impact. Different rounds work better against different surfaces and shot angles.

The other big difference in perceived effectiveness is that every MG151/20 round produces the same contact explosion graphic regardless of what type of round actually hits, whereas the Hispanos only show -any- impact effect for the HEs. AP rounds just leave a tiny puff of small debris which will quite often go unnoticed in the cloud of debris that comes out from the HE effects.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very informative! I was not aware of the Hispano HE and AP discrepancy with graphics, and further understand why even when it seems like I will only hit with one or two .50's (hence no explosion, yet debris), that there will be an engine fire, or some critical damage. (this is on the 38 I'm refering to).

Ty Clint.

Build a man a fire, keep him warm for a day...

Set a man on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life.

Bastables
04-20-2004, 09:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vipez-:
What? It should be the other way around.. Hispano may have more kinetic punch, but its definately should not have more explosive than german shells.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
http://www.leosk.org/tiedostot/sig-pieni.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh yes my bad:
Hispano power TNT equivalent = 0.012
151/20 MG power TNT equivalent = 0.0186

I thought I had read otherwise but probably mistaken on that point. Nonethess here's a brief comparison (based on this site: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html:

MG151/20
Cartridge: 20x82
Rate of Fire: 700-750
Muzzle Velocity: 725

Hispano Mark II (mounted on all fighters we have so far - Hispano Mark V only on the Tempest and Meteor)
Cartridge: 20x110
Rate of Fire: 600
Muzzle Velocity: 880

So the Hispano fires a bigger round (in length) at a slightly lower rate of fire but with a higher muzzle velocity. These are but some of a multitude of factors but you can see why the Hispano hits quite a bit harder. Indeed I was wrong on the explosive bit...the MG151/20 has that better.

For interests sake the Hispano Mark V has the same fire rate as the MG151/20 and virtually all other stats identical to the Mark II so that'll be a heavy hitter http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>MG151/20
20x82 fired three types of shells (even the AP was not a solid shot)

API= 117g. MV 720m/s
HET= 115g MV 720m/s
HE (MG)= 92g MV 800m/s (This round also had 22% of it?s weight as HE compared to the mere 8% of the Hispanio HE rounds)


The Hispanio Mk V fired it's shells at a lower velocity than the MkII
MkV=830m/s
MKII=860m/s