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Mitlov47
02-28-2004, 10:21 PM
Hi everyone,

I hope that this conversation will remain classy and polite.

Here's my problem. After dogfighting with BF-109s and FW-190s with every single allied plane in the original IL2, I finally decided to try the other side. And I really, really dig the BF-109 (especially the late-war models with the M108 in the nose).

HOWEVER...

I'm a Jew. And no matter how many times I say to myself "It's just a game," I feel really uncomfortable flying for the Luftwaffe with my grandparents' menorah in the corner of my room. I'm not saying Joseph Stalin was all sunshine and roses at all. But even though it's just a game, I feel awkward flying for a military that was trying to wipe my family off the face of the earth.

How do others deal with this? Do you just not worry about it? Do you have some way of rationalizing it? I'm not guilt-tripping y'all; I'm looking for a way to feel comfortable flying a plane that I really like.

---------------------------
I-16 and IL-2I.

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Mitlov47
02-28-2004, 10:21 PM
Hi everyone,

I hope that this conversation will remain classy and polite.

Here's my problem. After dogfighting with BF-109s and FW-190s with every single allied plane in the original IL2, I finally decided to try the other side. And I really, really dig the BF-109 (especially the late-war models with the M108 in the nose).

HOWEVER...

I'm a Jew. And no matter how many times I say to myself "It's just a game," I feel really uncomfortable flying for the Luftwaffe with my grandparents' menorah in the corner of my room. I'm not saying Joseph Stalin was all sunshine and roses at all. But even though it's just a game, I feel awkward flying for a military that was trying to wipe my family off the face of the earth.

How do others deal with this? Do you just not worry about it? Do you have some way of rationalizing it? I'm not guilt-tripping y'all; I'm looking for a way to feel comfortable flying a plane that I really like.

---------------------------
I-16 and IL-2I.

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

rummyrum
02-28-2004, 10:29 PM
Ater its creation, Israel used 109s if I am not mistaken. Remember the past but dont dwell on it. Also read about the Luftwaffe and you will see that not all Germans were Nazis just like all Americans are'nt Republicans. They were just doing their duty. All societies have had their bloody past.

9./JG54 Rummy

Saturnalia2
02-28-2004, 10:32 PM
Fly Finnish. All ethical problems solved and you get the nifty LW aircraft to fly.

x__CRASH__x
02-28-2004, 10:42 PM
I'm an American. My grandfather flew the P-47 in WWII.

I hate flying the P-47.

How can I say that? BECAUSE THIS IS A GAME!!

I fly with JG27. I am not a Nazi. I prefer flying the bf-109 because I have found it is the plane that most fits the style of flying I have come to excell at. I fly with JG27 because I met them, and they are a good bunch of guys. We aren't a German squadron. We just took the name. Hell, we could be called the "Beer Swiller / A$$ Kickers" for all I care.

I'm not here for idiology. I just likes me some flyin!

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)

arcadeace
02-28-2004, 10:46 PM
I look at the entire sim as a game, but I do prefer flying for the Russians/Allies. I have no problem with those who enjoy German. Also, remember...these are airmen, not necessarily Nazis. Deal with it any way you want, to each his own. Its the enjoyment of simulated air combat.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_222_1073167658.jpg

HangerQueen
02-28-2004, 10:50 PM
"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Gosh, It's been a long time since I've heard those lyrics. Brings back memories of going to the cash machine with my friend Dave to get some money before going into Dissolution (Goth club in Sheffield) and some random bloke shouted, "Goths! Why do you do it?" You know, I couldn't think of a good answer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Yeah, the Israelis used the Czech version of the 109. I think they used Spits as well. Both sides used whatever they could get their hands on. Flying Finnish is probably your best bet. If I knew how to skin, I'd probably make an Israeli skin for the 109 'cause I always thought that IADF camo patterns looked cool.

"You can try, but it is a difficult and thankless task to compare the combat qualities of aircraft using reference book data. There are simply too many nuances to consider." N. G. Golodnikov

Mitlov47
02-28-2004, 10:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rummyrum:
Ater its creation, Israel used 109s if I am not mistaken. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Turns out you're correct. I had never heard of this before, but I guess I learn something every day:

http://204.50.25.179/features00/images/images_6/s199ic_6.jpg

http://204.50.25.179/features00/s199ic_1.htm

The Avia S-199 was a Czech modification of the BF-109. Israel purchased 25 of them (Czechoslovakia was the only country who was willing to sell arms to Israel during the War for Independence). The Avia, nicknamed the Mezek (mule) by its Israeli pilots, saw extensive service in the defense of Tel Aviv.

This got me thinking...
1) In FB, can you use skins for QMB or just multiplayer? In the original IL-2, it's just multiplayer...
2) If FB can use skins on QMB, does any computer-talented individual out there feel the urge to make a skin of the Israeli Air Force's S-199? It would just about make my month to fly this baby against either Germany or the Soviet Union...

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

[For clarification: I own the original IL-2, not Forgotten Battles.]

Jazz-Man
02-28-2004, 11:01 PM
S! EMitton,

I too am a Jew, but futher more than is a man in my squadron who was alive at the time of the 2nd world war. He flies in our bomber corp. He still refuses to fly any German aircraft in the simulation because he had too many frends die at the hands of the creations of William Messershmitt and Kurt Tank.

My thinking is that these are tools, and that pilots in Germany were not members of any political parties, only helps to quell any feelings I have about the instruments of war. But for anyone to say: "Hey, its easy, it's just a game" is, in my opinion with no offence at all intended, is foolish, because it is not easy to forget the tragedies of History.

What model of the BF-109 was the S-199 based on? I'd love to create a skin for the 109 based on that model.

In FB you can change skins in QMB and also during the Campaign.

Email me, raf74jazzman@aircombat.net and I'll get it to you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!
William "Jazz-Man" Katz
Squadron Batman
RAF No.74 Squadron
http://home.sou.edu/~katzw/images/signature.jpg

ElAurens
02-28-2004, 11:15 PM
This skin already exists at IL2 skins . com.

Israeli Avia (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=4519)

http://www.il2skins.com/skins/screenshots/4519.jpg


The Avia was powered by a Jumo engine rather than the DB engine of regular 109s. Hence it was a very nose heavy and underpowered aircraft. The pilots who flew it are fond of saying that it "tried to kill us every time we flew it."
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

_____________________________

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/Curtiss_logo.gif

BlitzPig_EL

Baltar
02-28-2004, 11:26 PM
http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=1760

A VERY NICE Israeli skin for the bf109k4. Also check:

http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=1789
http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=2987
http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=4672
http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=4519
http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=1003

Don't think they're quite up to scratch with the first, but decent.

I personally don't have a second thought when picking German fighters to fly, they are just a tool after all. I applaud the developers for choosing not to put the swastika on any of the German skins and I think guys that go out of their way to put them back on there (like the little program I saw on Mudmovers recently) are a tad creepy...

necrobaron
02-28-2004, 11:29 PM
No,I don't have a problem flying for the Germans. The Luftwaffe doesn't equal Nazism or it's ideals. There were plenty of good men that flew for the 3rd Reich but didn't follow it's ideology. They were simply doing their duty for their country. I fly LW simply because I happen to like German planes(but not exclusively.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

"Not all who wander are lost."

Jazz-Man
02-28-2004, 11:29 PM
Well now http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

After I just finished putting together that exact scheme.. LOL

I figured it had already been done, and il2skins.com is definately the place to look!

EMitton, if you still want the one that I just finished, you can still email me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!
William "Jazz-Man" Katz
Squadron Batman
RAF No.74 Squadron
http://home.sou.edu/~katzw/images/signature.jpg

Lixma
02-28-2004, 11:33 PM
Oh Crash...your modesty preceeds you -

"I prefer flying the bf-109 because I have found it is the plane that most fits the style of flying I have come to excell at."

EMitton, you'll notice the Russian squads flying Russian A/C only despite Stalin's genocidal track record (which outstrips Hitler by a long shot). I'm in no position to relate to your dilemma. Although only a computer game it must feel occasionaly odd to be flying around in the cutting edge technology of a regime that, amongst other rotten ideals, saw fit to exterminate you and your family.

Franzen
02-28-2004, 11:40 PM
As a German I also have thought about these things. I lost a lot of my family to the Russians. But once again, this is just a flight sim and the intentions are just to enjoy flying planes. If jump into an Allied plane and shoot down some LW planes, it's still just a game. There are no political or ethical issues. Think of intensions. That's what counts.

Fritz

CzechTexan
02-28-2004, 11:46 PM
I agree with Rummyrum about the Germans.
But I fly mostly Russian which is a similar situation since they were under a communist regime which later ruled over Czechoslovakia, where my heritage is from.
I just set political differences aside and understand that there were men on both sides just doing their duty.
Besides, most Russians were not card-carrying members of the communist party. They were just defending their homeland. Ordinary Germans defended their homeland in the same way. The more you understand the better you will feel about this matter.

***
80% of all German casualties in WW2 were on the Eastern Front.
I need to make my pic smaller before i can post it.
http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/281203-000_0049.JPG

BaldieJr
02-28-2004, 11:47 PM
Do what your heart tells you is right... just don't expect others' hearts to tell them the same.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
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/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

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horseback
02-29-2004, 12:13 AM
Judging from the wing bulges, short tail wheel and the lack of a trim tab on the rudder, I'd guess the S-199 was similar to a G-10 variant; it seems to me that the Czechs made a few S-99s which were equipped with DB-605s, but there was a fire where their engines were stored, and they were forced to make do with the Jumos.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Tooz_69GIAP
02-29-2004, 12:17 AM
I am not a jew, but I am certainly not fond of the germans. My maternal great grandfather spent time in a KZ camp, my great aunt married a german occupation soldier who left her and never came back, forcing her to leave the community with her newborn son, my father's uncle fought in the Freikorps Danmark SS Division, my step mother's father was in the R.E.M.E. and my great uncle had 2 sons who fought in the US forces.

Nobody died as far as I am aware, but my family has been affected by these events for a very long time.

But, I fly every aircraft in IL2. I would have joined a german squad had I not found the GeeYap (the commander is danish which kinda pushed me that way!!) as I really like 109s.

Warbirds, tanks, guns, battleships; these are not instruments of political terror but are instruments of warfare. Everybody had them, it was the men using them that were different, or the men leading them that were different. And it is just a game.

Tooz

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg
Za Rodinu!

Jumoschwanz
02-29-2004, 12:21 AM
Read some books. Some luftwaffe pilots were nazis and some were not. A lot of them were just good soldiers following orders and trying to keep their families from being run over by the russians. I know if I was in their shoes I wouldn't have felt bad about it.

I don't like the direction the country I am in now is going. Bush is another Hitler. But you can bet if someone was heading towards my house and taking no prisoners like the russians were doing in WWII I would shoot the $hit out them no matter what a$$hole was in the white house that got me into the mess.

So just be a good soldier and do your job. You get to have fun doing it too!

Quit thinking, life goes a lot smoother that way. There is not one problem mankind has that did not begin with one of those damn thoughts.


Jumoschwanz

Baltar
02-29-2004, 12:38 AM
Incidentally, I'm wondering if the swastika tail marking on LW craft was some sort of regulation, and if so how strict? Could a LW pilot refuse to have one on his plane?

arcadeace
02-29-2004, 12:39 AM
"I don't like the direction the country I am in now is going. Bush is another Hitler."

I like the direction my country is going and I don't like the direction you get off twisting this thread injecting obsessed political hate at the man I elected as president of my country. Can it Jumo! This is not the place!

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_222_1073167658.jpg

sdcruz
02-29-2004, 01:08 AM
Very valid point - but please remember not all German airmen were anti Sematic - they were doing what was called upon.

Cheers,
Shelton.

Menthol_moose
02-29-2004, 01:12 AM
Yeah.. it cant be stressed enough that not all germans were nazi idealists.

Last centuries real villian was stalin though.
History was written by the victor, and thats why the red banner is acceptable over the swastika.



Eh, mates! What's the good word?

Timex62
02-29-2004, 01:43 AM
A simple technical piont folks, the S-99 was the single seat fighter version and the S-199 was a two seat trainer.

Close to the Edge

Bewolf
02-29-2004, 02:00 AM
If i remember right, there was an ace who refused to paint the swastika on this tail (galland? moelders?) and got away with it. I don´t really know his name anymore.
Lesser known pilots didn´t have this luxury though i think.

That said, all in all the Luftwaffe was the least nazified branch of the german army. They got the swastika on the tail because Goering wanted to impress Hitler.

I am german, so that´s why i fly Luftwaffe planes. Certainly i spent some thoughts on the morale dilemma, but then again my fathers nurse got killed by american strafers while going for a walk in her home town, while my great aunt got raped by russians. Which doesn´t mean i won´t hop into an Il2 or a Mustag anyday. It was war, and it is the past. Contraproductive to still have gripes against another country IMHO.

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Franzen
02-29-2004, 02:15 AM
Well said Bewolf, time to move on.

Fritz

arcadeace
02-29-2004, 02:24 AM
The German navy by and large were not fighting for Nazi ideology either.

In my years as an adult I've learned to look beyond the compulsive and many times self-righteous judgementalism directed towards the German soldier. If I was a young, naive German man I can't imagine I would not join to fight for my country's honor against an enemy I was told is guilty, determined to destroy my people and homeland. How can I assume now I would know any better.

Many belonging to the Nazi party and those in positions of authority are another story.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_222_1073167658.jpg

resev
02-29-2004, 02:42 AM
Excelent thread.

A bit of my account.

I fly for whatever side that migt need a pilot to level the play, however, if i'm going to fly for LW, then i refuse to use a skin that might have a swastika cross in them, and i have no respect whatsoever for LW pilots that do so.
For me there is no historical reason whatsoever that might make it any less respectfull to use it.

If, to level the game, i might jump on a German machine, then i do it with a mental state of flying in the bahalf of the German Airforce, not the fascist government Germany was under.


Like Beowulf said, some pilots refused to have a swastika painted on their aircrafts, because they flew for their country, not for their countries regime.
That's exactly under that light that i like to see myself under if i have to fly for the luftwaffe.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/resev/images/2-picture2.gif?0.3524929147671928

uberweng
02-29-2004, 02:43 AM
Some of my family members died fighting german soldiers but i find it hard to find a connection between that and playing il2. Maybe its possible to construct an argument around the fact that il2 includes representations of german aircraft used in the second world war but i dont feel that by flying these aircraft that i am in any way dishonouring my dead family members, making light of the tragedy that was the second world war, or disseminating nazi ideology in any way.

While i agree with what Jazz-Man said about it not being easy to forget the tragedies of history is true and admit that events which seem mere shadows to me are still very real for many people, i think it is important to also remember that il2 is just a game. Should we feel morally uneasy about flying digital representations of luftwaffe aircraft and "killing" digital representations of allied airmen and soldiers?


Ethical questions about il2 cannot be confined to just this game. Is il2 is in some way different from Halo or any other video game that depicts a violent action? Is it different because il2 depicts events that happened in the past? Is virtual violence some more morally questionable when it takes place in a historical setting/context? I don't think so...


However, i also don't wish to criticise those who do. I respect people who take an interest in history and try to honour there predecessors. EMitton, i hope you are able to find a way to enjoy all of the il2 experience.

Uberweng

necrobaron
02-29-2004, 02:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bewolf:

...my fathers nurse got killed by american strafers while going for a walk in her home town, while my great aunt got raped by russians.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's horrible. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

As for the Hakenkreuz, I use it for historical accuracy and not to show my support for a fascist regime. Is it any more offensive than a red star(Russia) or a red circle(Japan)?

"Not all who wander are lost."

[This message was edited by necrobaron on Sun February 29 2004 at 02:13 AM.]

necrobaron
02-29-2004, 02:50 AM
Whoops! Double post. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BlackHawkLeader
02-29-2004, 02:50 AM
To the Original Poster,
I can understand your discomfort, the best way to look at it is through the eyes of history down through the ages.
It is not your fault, and not your Grandparents fault, that Bible phropecy was full filled.

It was always going to be, no matter what we human beings might think about being the masters of our own fate, in reality we are as dust in the wind.

By the Mid 1930s the Biblical phropecy about the children of Israel not being left altogether un punished before God gathered them together again in one place as a NATION!!, was nearly 2,500 years old, and still left un fullfilled.

Take a look at the World today, Behold the State of Israel! and rejoice that her Enemies are as dust in the Wind!

Celebrate it every time you play IL-2/FB On and Off line.

Cheers

Mitlov47
02-29-2004, 02:58 AM
First off, I'd like to thank everyone for keeping this dialogue respectful. This has turned into a really cool thread.

At the end of the day, I still don't feel totally comfortable flying for the Luftwaffe. However, the simple solution for me is to use those Israeli Air Force skins posted on the first page of the thread.

However, I do NOT condemn those who have no discomfort flying for the Luftwaffe. Different people have different boundaries because of their own personal histories. I could see how someone who lived in Germany or an Eastern European country could feel uncomfortable flying for the USSR Air Force. I could see how an African-American might feel uncomfortable flying for the (then-segregated) USAAF, and insist on using a Tuskeegee skin. I don't have any problems flying for the VVS or the USAAF, but I could see how others do. It's the same with me and the Luftwaffe.

Saturnalia--good idea about the Finnish Air Force. Hadn't thought of that.

Special thanks to Jazzman for making and emailing me a skin within about an hour of me posting this this thread.

Anyway, carry on. I'm really enjoying reading these responses.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

[For clarification: I own the original IL-2, not Forgotten Battles.]

Osirisx9
02-29-2004, 03:11 AM
Hmnn I gues i have a beef with both sides. As for flying German...I dont think that folks who looked like me would have been passed over when 6 million Jews were herded to the Ovens and roasted. We would have been roasted in the same ovens. As for flying for the Allies...Especially the Americans. Here on American soil and in the feild German POWs were treated better than all of my relatives who fought in WW2. Apparently the Germans POWs did not have to deal with the all-out Racism that existed in America and its Military. But that was then this is now.... I mainly fly the P-51 and started practicing with the P-47. When I'm on a server that permits skin downloads I proudly fly the P-51 red tail in Honor of the Tuskegee airmen. I also like flying the Zero BTW and fly it when I just want to fool around and T&B. When I fly German I just pretend that I was shot down, captured, and brainwashed into believing that WW2 Germany treated people who looked like me better than the WW2 America would.

Osiris_X9

Eleonore_Rigby
02-29-2004, 03:20 AM
This is a very interesting thread.

I only want to mention the film "Das Boot" - U96 "The boat", I think, you know the film. Remember the captain (Jürgen Prochnow). Sure a nazi, but did he really glorify the regime?
I'm sure there were thousands of soldiers, who "killed" people because they were told to do so, respectively they had no other choice. They didn't kill because they were full of hate. As full of hate to murder people!

For me I have no problems playing on german side, but, yes, funny, I feel discomfort seeing a swastika. I don't feel discomfort facing a russian star. Strange.

It is really a benefit for me to see, that it is still possible to discuss such a subject without quarrel and insults!

Teufel_Eldritch
02-29-2004, 03:21 AM
EMitton

Dont let it get to you. If you really need to rationalize flying LW then think about the fact that Uncle Joe killed far more Jews than the maniac from Austria ever did.

Mitlov47
02-29-2004, 03:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HangerQueen:
"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Gosh, It's been a long time since I've heard those lyrics. Brings back memories of going to the cash machine with my friend Dave to get some money before going into Dissolution (Goth club in Sheffield) and some random bloke shouted, "Goths! Why do you do it?" You know, I couldn't think of a good answer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Great anecdote. I entirely agree. I used to take the scene very seriously, until I realized how silly it all was. I still enjoy the music and the occasional trip to a club, though.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yeah, the Israelis used the Czech version of the 109. I think they used Spits as well. Both sides used whatever they could get their hands on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've found some mention of Israeli Spitfires online, but it kind of surprises me, because Britain and Israel had pretty sour relations since, well, before Israel even existed. But from what I've found online, both Israel and the Arab states had Spitfires during the 1948 War.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

[For clarification: I own the original IL-2, not Forgotten Battles.]

BlackHawkLeader
02-29-2004, 03:36 AM
I noticed people refering to discomfort, about using a Swastika Emblem and feeling none about using a red star.

The Nazis left a terrible legacy on the concience of man because what they became capable of was so well publicised.
In a sense the Swastika has become a symbol of mans in humanity to man.

The images of Nazi attrocities are well publicised, the attrocities of other Nations are not so well known.

The only important thing is that the House of David has endured to this day!

SeaFireLIV
02-29-2004, 04:23 AM
Wow. Many times I wanted to start a post like this, but was convinced it would turn into a terrible flame thread. About six months ago it would have done.

I personally still find it difficult to fly LW aircraft. I remember the first time I flew Axis bf109 in EAW, `creepy`, I thought, seeing that Swastika on fellow planes and knowing it was on mine.

Playing FB has softened my attitude a bit to flying Jerry, partly because I`ve had to to equal numbers in online coops, dogfights. And partly because they`re are a lot of decent LW flyers here on the forums.

I still prefer not to fly them, myself. But all to their own. I`d rather take my chances with Stalin... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
Well done, Emitton.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/P47duck.jpg

TooCool_12f
02-29-2004, 05:06 AM
half my familiy was killed fighting nazi occupators some sixty years ago (other half fought too but were more lucky and survived).

however, while flying in FB, I don't fly "axis", I fly "blue", and I don't fly "allied" but "red".

I make absolutely no connection between pixels on a pc screen and reality, and if you do, you should ask yourself how you can "kill" that many people (even "virtually").

My father is actor, and for some reason, when a director takes him for a WWII movie, he always receives a proposition to play a german officer, or a some collaborator and such... even knowing our family history, he does it, and it makes no problem to wear an SS unifom. It's just a job, a motion picture, period. Same way, IL2/FB is just a game.

Just relax and have fun http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SeaFireLIV
02-29-2004, 05:29 AM
hmmm... I wonder who your father is... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/P47duck.jpg

TooCool_12f
02-29-2004, 05:46 AM
Zarko Savic

You probably don't know him, he lives and works in zagreb, former yugoslavia, and now croatia http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Red_Storm
02-29-2004, 05:46 AM
As to the person who asked if there were any pilots who didn't use the swastika's on their tail, yes there were. Once an entire squadron took off the swastikas as they didn't agree with some decision G¶ring had made. In the field pilots could in theory just paint over the swastika too. I'm sure it happened quite a lot in the field. In 1944 onle 2% (!!!) of Waffen-SS soldiers followed the "nazi" ideology. Almost none of the Wehrmacht, Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe soldiers were true nazis throughout the war, they were just soldiers called to do their duty.

Jirozaemon
02-29-2004, 06:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:
Judging from the wing bulges, short tail wheel and the lack of a trim tab on the rudder, I'd guess the S-199 was similar to a G-10 variant; it seems to me that the Czechs made a few S-99s which were equipped with DB-605s, but there was a fire where their engines were stored, and they were forced to make do with the Jumos.

cheers

horseback

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The S-199 is based on a Bf-109 G6 frame and equipped with a Jumo engine. It was called "Nazi-Revenge" by the Israeli forces as it was underpowered and noseheavy.

Try google...

Regards

Jiro

Jirozaemon
02-29-2004, 06:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eleonore_Rigby:
This is a very interesting thread.

I only want to mention the film "Das Boot" - U96 "The boat", I think, you know the film. Remember the captain (Jürgen Prochnow). Sure a nazi, but did he really glorify the regime?
I'm sure there were thousands of soldiers, who "killed" people because they were told to do so, respectively they had no other choice. They didn't kill because they were full of hate. As full of hate to murder people!

For me I have no problems playing on german side, but, yes, funny, I feel discomfort seeing a swastika. I don't feel discomfort facing a russian star. Strange.

It is really a benefit for me to see, that it is still possible to discuss such a subject without quarrel and insults!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As you mention "Das Boot" - the skipper ("Der Alte") certainly is not a Nazi but the I. WO is. Take a look at the extended version and check out the scene where the crew visits the german merchant ship. There is no reply to "Heil Hilter" and the I. WO is considered to be the captian .

Regards

Jiro

Eleonore_Rigby
02-29-2004, 07:05 AM
Yes, Jiro, I remember. You're right.

Fenna
02-29-2004, 07:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
As to the person who asked if there were any pilots who didn't use the swastika's on their tail, yes there were. Once an entire squadron took off the swastikas as they didn't agree with some decision G¶ring had made. In the field pilots could in theory just paint over the swastika too. I'm sure it happened quite a lot in the field. In 1944 onle 2% (!!!) of Waffen-SS soldiers followed the "nazi" ideology. Almost none of the Wehrmacht, Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe soldiers were true nazis throughout the war, they were just soldiers called to do their duty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm 2% of the SS were nazis? Who said so? Was there an official survey or something?

Gershy
02-29-2004, 07:39 AM
wasn't there a squad which painted a black badge or something like that on their planes during the BoB because one of their members got into trouble because he was jewish or had jewish relatives. I remember reading something like that but can't remember which squad it was????

musickna
02-29-2004, 07:50 AM
Interesting post and thread. I, too, find myself caught between conflicting impulses. Firstly, I like to build plastic model aircraft and I like to reproduce them historically - so I put swastikas on the tail of German aircraft. I also like to see the planes flying in FB look historical - so I enable the swastika on those tails too.

On the other hand, I am married to a Jewish woman and I am raising a Jewish son (although I am not personally Jewish). So I am very much aware that if my family was living in Nazi Germany, they would be killed just for what they are - and the symbol of that destruction is that very same swastika.

I reconcile these feelings by applying the same thoughts to both the game and my model aircraft - these are reflections of past horrors, but not the horrors themselves. We do not live in such times - and if such times tried to return, I would do my utmost to prevent them. But I cannot deny it gives me great pleasure in FB to see a swastika-bearing Luftwaffe plane go down in flames before my guns.

SUPERAEREO
02-29-2004, 07:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fenna:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
As to the person who asked if there were any pilots who didn't use the swastika's on their tail, yes there were. Once an entire squadron took off the swastikas as they didn't agree with some decision G¶ring had made. In the field pilots could in theory just paint over the swastika too. I'm sure it happened quite a lot in the field. In 1944 onle 2% (!!!) of Waffen-SS soldiers followed the "nazi" ideology. Almost none of the Wehrmacht, Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe soldiers were true nazis throughout the war, they were just soldiers called to do their duty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm 2% of the SS were nazis? Who said so? Was there an official survey or something?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes exactly: who went around the front with a questionnaire for the SS?

Or it's what they said after capture? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

AFAIK it was only in JG.53 that the swastika disappeared from the tailfins of some 109's for a brief period at the end of 1940, and nobody knows for sure why, even if the rebellion of the pilots has been mentioned as a possibility.

The Avia S.99 was the DB.605 powered version, the S.199 the Jumo one.

And about insignia: the Russian versions of IL-2 and FB DO display swastikas in both the German and Finnish markings.

I am not a weirdo but I have enabled them on my PC because the sight of the Finnish roundels otherwise would be totally unrealistic.

I am not Jewish but have had a long and loving relationship with a Jewish girlfriend and she never has any problems if she sees planes with hooked crosses on my PC screen.

I find it overkill when swastikas are removed from games and model kits: historically they were there and hiding them helps no-one. I think it's political correctness gone overboard, IMHO. At this rate we should remove Italian markings because they feature fasces.

LW planes had swastikas on their tails, but then again the German War Flag had one in its middle. Does it mean that all German servicemen were 100% convinced nazis..?

I really believe that this being a game, we should have no problems with symbols, and even that eliminating them as they never existed can even turn out to be counter-productive in the long run.

Then again, it's only my opinion.


S!

SUPERAEREO
02-29-2004, 08:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gershy:
wasn't there a squad which painted a black badge or something like that on their planes during the BoB because one of their members got into trouble because he was jewish or had jewish relatives. I remember reading something like that but can't remember which squad it was????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JG.53, as I said above. The Geschwader Kommodore, Major Hans-Jürgen von Cramon-Taubadel (if memory serves me right) had married a Jewish woman.

Subsequently G¶ring ordered the removal of the Pik-As emblem and its substitution with a red ring around the planes' nose.

The Pik-As emblem was re-instated with the removal of von Cramon-Taubadel and its substitution with a new Kommodore, and it was at this point that the swastika disappeared from some of the planes, but nobody has been able to prove that these events were at all linked, so we do not for sure what the real reason was.

S!

masamainio
02-29-2004, 09:44 AM
My grandfather was in Finnish Air Force before, during and after WW2. He survived the war but had nightmares for the rest of his life. He did not like to talk about his war experiences and in no way thought about being a hero or something to admire because of what he HAD TO DO. I had enough conversations with him to know that he did not support nazism, fascism, communism, capitalism or narrow minded nationalism. He thought that he and his fellow pilots and soldiers were only doing their duty and save what could be saved in a mess and catastrophe created by the leaders of Finland, Soviet Union and Germany.

I can download the skins for my grandfarher's planes and even the pilot skin with his face from IL2skins.com. Then i can fly for Soviet Union in FB and shoot down his plane. I have done it and there is no reason why not, it is only a game about very interesting period in history.

Playing this game does not make me to accept war or violence in any form and it does not make me proud of my nationality or belive in propaganda from anywhere. All the suffering is because of the evil leaders. It is foolish to think that any honest, kind and trustworthy person can reach any power in any society. The world is no different from mafia.

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Varusteet/FiatG.50_2.jpg

Bearcat99
02-29-2004, 10:17 AM
The Israeli Airforce used the best equipment it could get its hands on...interesting that it chose 109s and Mustangs........ So just put on your Israeli skin and enjoy yourself...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://www.mudmovers.com/)

FW190fan
02-29-2004, 10:19 AM
For me it's just a love of airplanes.

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

widgeon
02-29-2004, 10:24 AM
I think this thread underscores the fact that the history of WW2 has very important messages for generations to come, but the entire history must be studied. As others have pointed out, most countries involved commited acts against humanity. Some in the name of battling 'evil', others because of leaders who were not firing on all 12 cylinders (so to speak). The magnitude of mistreatment and destruction is without parallel.

These are the things I try to teach my kids when we fly IL-2 FB. I try also to teach them about the heros on both sides, and we enjoy flying, with historically accurate swastikas and all.

factoid: Did you know a battalion of US troops in WW-1 wore a swastika as part of their shoulder badge. Can't remember which, anyone?


Widgeon

Alexi_Alx_Anova
02-29-2004, 10:32 AM
Can't resist.
i) It's just a game. It's action. It's a 3D world. It's fun.
ii) But, "Many LW pilots were just flying for their country". Hmmm, if my country was saying it was the master race and that we had the right to invade other countries, kill people, and take what we wanted, I sure as hell wouldn't be flying for "my" country. I'd be out of their pronto!
iii) What's jewish got to do with this really? What if you were a gypsy or gay or disagreed? They all got the chop in equal proportions as well. Ask rather, "I'm a human being, so should I be playing this game?"

Alexi

-----------------------------
Drug of choice....coffee

http://web.onetel.net.uk/~alx_747/coffee.jpg
-----------------------------

Helonwhls87
02-29-2004, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by widgeon:

factoid: Did you know a battalion of US troops in WW-1 wore a swastika as part of their shoulder badge. Can't remember which, anyone?


Widgeon<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here you go.

The US Army's 45th infantry division had a swastika as a shoulder patch.

Hitler's private train was named " Amerika"

Both later changed for PR reasons.

Helonwhls87
02-29-2004, 11:03 AM
Here's a link
http://www.45thdivisionmuseum.com/History/SwastikaToThunderbird.html

widgeon
02-29-2004, 11:22 AM
Thanks


Widgeon

robban75
02-29-2004, 11:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alexi_Alx_Anova:
ii) But, "Many LW pilots were just flying for their country". Hmmm, if my country was saying it was the master race and that we had the right to invade other countries, kill people, and take what we wanted, I sure as hell wouldn't be flying for "my" country. I'd be out of their pronto!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brainwashing people is easier to do than one think. IIRC there was a test at a school some time back were a group of teachers "tricked" their students in very much the same way Hitler convinced many of his people that what he did was right. I believ it was called "the wave".
The same kind of brainwashing happens even today. There are alot of people that needs to be told what to believe, it's a good thing however that alot of people can make their own judgments. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

tttiger
02-29-2004, 12:15 PM
Emitton, thank you for starting this thread and thanks to the community for addressing it thoughtfully.

I am Jewish, most of my family was killed by the Nazis while most Germans stood by and did nothing to stop them. There are many people with whom I fly on line who criticize me for refusing to fly LW. I get tired of explaining it.

I'm almost 58 and so a bit older than most in here (cutting edge Baby Boomer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) and I grew up among concentration camp survivors (has anyone here any relatives with numbers tattooed on their arms? Most of mine did) and, on the other half of my family, WWII vets. My uncle flew P-47s in the 9th AF and, like his fellow 9th AF pilots, many of whom I have met, he killed just as many Germans as he could by bombing and strafing "up close and personal" where he could see their bodies fly apart from those .50s and was proud to do it.

I think, for some of the younger pilots in this sim, WWII is too distant a memory. You look on it like I look at the US Civil War. Somehow you romanticize the Grafs and Trautlofts. Golden-haired knights, my arse. They were trying to conquer the world and kill or enslave anyone who was different than they were. They knew what they were doing when they went over the Polish Border on Sept. 1, 1939.

The only one I admire was Moelders, first pilot ever to achieve 100 kills. He refused to wear Nazi insignia on his uniform. He was Catholic and Hitler killed 2 million Catholics in addition to the 6 million Jews. Of course, those pilots knew about the camps! How could they not know?

For the non-Jews (most of you, obviously), we can never explain adequately the hatred we have for Hitler and his regime. Symbolism is a very powerful thing and the WWII German planes, even with the swastika scrubbed off, symbolize what the Nazis did.

If my grandparents or my uncle were still alive, they would be horrified to see me flying a Nazi plane in a game.

And yes, Israel used 109s (I always thought they were G models) and K98 rifles. Not because they were the best but because they were available.

Enough. Stalin was just as bad and the Russians even under the czars murdered whole villages of Jews at a time. Pogroms, those massacres were called.

I'm glad we finally have US and UK planes to fly so I don't have to fly with either a Black Cross or a Red Star (with apologies to Christer Bergstrom http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

Finally, as a Vietnam Vet, I do understand many soldiers go to war who don't support the war at all but have little choice. I was one of them. I wasn't a draftee. I was a career soldier and we went where we were told and fought whom we were told to fight. And we were wrong. I bear no grudge against the German people or German WWII vets. I do understand most were fighting for their country, not Hitler. But, like me, they also were very wrong.

Thanks for reading my rant http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Aloha,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

[This message was edited by tttiger on Sun February 29 2004 at 11:44 AM.]

Mitlov47
02-29-2004, 12:19 PM
Great post, TTT.

It's interesting you mention the Tsars. My family escaped the Holocaust because we fled the butchery of the Tsar in 1892 and came to the USA then. There was a brief period under Lenin when Russian Jews could live in safety, but Stalin was as anti-Semitic as the worst of the Tsars. I'm glad we got out when we did.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

[For clarification: I own the original IL-2, not Forgotten Battles.]

Holosite
02-29-2004, 12:57 PM
"By the Mid 1930s the Biblical phropecy about the children of Israel not being left altogether un punished before God gathered them together again in one place as a NATION!!, was nearly 2,500 years old, and still left un fullfilled.

Take a look at the World today, Behold the State of Israel! and rejoice that her Enemies are as dust in the Wind!

Celebrate it every time you play IL-2/FB On and Off line."
Tell that to the survivors of the USS Liberty and to every tax-paying American citizen who never bothered to look at the fact that Israel gets more foreign aid from the USA than any 5 other nations added together.

Mitlov47
02-29-2004, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Holosite:
"By the Mid 1930s the Biblical phropecy about the children of Israel not being left altogether un punished before God gathered them together again in one place as a NATION!!, was nearly 2,500 years old, and still left un fullfilled.

Take a look at the World today, Behold the State of Israel! and rejoice that her Enemies are as dust in the Wind!

Celebrate it every time you play IL-2/FB On and Off line."
Tell that to the survivors of the USS Liberty and to every tax-paying American citizen who never bothered to look at the fact that Israel gets more foreign aid from the USA than any 5 other nations added together.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would request that both of these individuals bring the conversation back on topic. This conversation is about individual's comfort with flying for the Luftwaffe, the VVS, etc. It is NOT a religious debate or a discussion of modern international relations. I don't want this thread to go there.

Remember that this is www.il2sturmovik.com (http://www.il2sturmovik.com). Please make sure your comments have something to do with this computer game.

Thank you.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

[For clarification: I own the original IL-2, not Forgotten Battles.]

JG14_Josf
02-29-2004, 01:32 PM
Skin color, race, sex, creed, heritage, and any other external outer coating does not define a human being. We are individuals. To judge a person based upon anything other than that persons personal history and personal moral capacity is an error. An error that continues to occur much to the detriment of everyone involved.

It is a serious mistake to hold anyone accountable for something that is absolutely beyond that persons control.

I knew a man who survived the Bataan Death March. If any one person were somehow justified in hating people in general than this man would be the one. He was not. He did not judge people by anyting other than the individual person, including people who happen to be Japanese.

Why is it any different to judge a player based upon the paint job they place on their plane in a computer game?

Heaping all the atrocities of former monsters upon someone playing a computer game may serve a purpose to someone, personally I see no point in this exercise in imagination.

This is not to say that it is impossible to find a morally bankrupt individual playing IL2 and I am not saying that it isn't a good idea to identify such undesirable corrupt and dangerous individuals but really, do you think these types go around advertizing these days?

I met Franz Stigler, an ex Luftwaffe pilot. He did not strike me as a dangerous genocidal murderer. I judged him to be a very nice, funny, old man, with a troubled past, much like my friend who took that long walk.

Care in judment is a good thing, I think, and mistakes in judment can lead to future trouble and missed opportunities.

Take care.

SeaFireLIV
02-29-2004, 03:58 PM
I gotta admit that`s it`s a sign of the decency of this forum that it has lasted 4 pages in relative peace. This would not have survived this far 6 months back.

I`m proud to be a member. S! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/P47duck.jpg

SeaFireLIV
02-29-2004, 03:58 PM
I gotta admit that`s it`s a sign of the decency of this forum that it has lasted 4 pages in relative peace. This would not have survived this far 6 months back.

I`m proud to be a member. S! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
DAMMIT! Double post! Sorry!

SeaFireLIV...
http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/LAlowblue.jpg

Holosite
02-29-2004, 04:21 PM
i wasnt trying to be religious or political,just a little frustrated with reading posts concerned with the greatest game to come along in a long time and wondering why a game which is made for entertainment is suddenly the subject of much hand-wringing and self guilt.My mother lived through the B-29 raids that targeted population centers like tokyo that had NO military value and killed 80,000+ and i dont go around contemplating and reflecting on whether I should jump in the US planes in FB...

SUPERAEREO
02-29-2004, 05:04 PM
Brilliant post tttiger, it was not a rant at all and it earned you my respect and, I am sure, that of many here.

S!

Merlin_602Sqn
02-29-2004, 05:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackHawkLeader:
By the Mid 1930s the Biblical phropecy about the children of Israel not being left altogether un punished before God gathered them together again in one place as a NATION!!, was nearly 2,500 years old, and still left un fullfilled.

Take a look at the World today, Behold the State of Israel! and rejoice that her Enemies are as dust in the Wind!

Celebrate it every time you play IL-2/FB On and Off line.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have all lost relatives and loved ones during ww2, but dragging religion and prophecy into a game that has no political and religious value is to much for me.
I'm very tempted to drag a certain conflict going on right now in the "glorious" state of Israel, but I won't, because that's beside the subject.. Please BlackHawkLeader, keep those kind of outburst to yourself, or com discuss this with me in another thread, lord knows I have a lot on my mind on the subject!
Otherwise congrats on a very "clean" thread without ranting, whining and trolling.

S!

http://www.cityofglasgow.btinternet.co.uk/images/Merlin-sig.jpg

Tooz_69GIAP
02-29-2004, 05:11 PM
Ok, here's the thing, the swastika was the national symbol of germany from 1933-1945. The swastika was used in the same manner that the red star was used on russian a/c, in the same way that stars and bars are seen on US a/c, rising suns are seen on Japanese planes, etc.

Perhaps the main difference in the swastika and these other symbols is that the swastika was the symbol of the political party NSDAP and so is associated with the events in WWII in which Germany was involved. But the fact remains, when in 1933 Hitler came to power, he made the Swastika the national symbol, not just the symbol of his party.

Today, in the US people living in "the South" are no longer alowed to fly the dixie flag (is that what it's called?), in Scotland you are not "allowed" to fly the saltire on St Andrew's day!! Why is this?? Politics, bad memories, politcal correctness (an invention of ludicrous proportions in my estimates!!).

I am sure that whenever some one in Vietnam sees the stars n bars, they certainly don't want to pledge allegience to the flag!! And talk to anyone old enough to remember the communist era, not only in Russia, but in the Warsaw Pact countries!! They will tell you stories that would make your toes curl!!

Point is, seeing a hakenkreuz is probably not something anyone with a Jewish heritage is happy to see, but it was there, it sat on the tails of almost every single german aircraft, the red star sat on almost every single soviet aircraft. Hiding details such as these is not constructive. All that you are doing is allowing an atmosphere of hatred, of animosity, of fear to continue because issues connected with these problems are not confronted, but are simply "swept under the carpet" by removing symbols from packaging, etc, so that it never has to come to mind.

But tell me, how many Palestinian Arabs would happily remove the star of david from their sight?? How often has the state of Israel campaigned for it's own "lebensraum"?

I am not at all saying that israel and nazi germany are similar, but think about what you are saying when you shout out about seeing a symbol in a electronic representation of events which happened 60 years or more ago. This game is not real life, you are not a nazi if you fly for the Luftwaffe, you are not a communist if you fly for the VVS, you are not anything except what you want to be.

Fly the game and have fun.

Tooz

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg
Za Rodinu!

Holosite
02-29-2004, 05:39 PM
Perhaps "tttiger" and "Blackhawkleder" would like an expansion pack for FB where they can pilot US supplied(at no cost,of course)Apache gunships and indiscriminately blast another "militant" with rockets at the local market place during lunch hour killing dozens of bystanders.....i cant name the region for fear of ending up like Mel Gibson though....

Franzen
02-29-2004, 06:11 PM
I'm totally amazed that this thread has gone into it's fourth page without turning into one of those "flame wars". But I have to say, it was damn risky EMitton. Emotional control isn't exactly a human thing, quite the opposite in fact. Whether any of you guyz agree with the opinions or not I hope we can keep it civilized.
Having said that, let's also remember that anti-semetism is not a German thing but in fact almost a global thing. The "holocaust" was first used in England about 1000 years ago when English royalty commited genocide against the Jews, for the second time in there history. So my question to EMitton would be" Do you fly British planes?" In fact, a few years before the German invasion of Poland a Polish village irrupted in violence and 1600 Jews were killed in one night. "Would you fly with Polish colors?" I could go on and mention other nations such as France, Spain, Italy, bla, bla, bla, but I don't have that much time.
My point is, you are giving yourself and headache and just gonna ruin the game for yourself. Accept for the time I dropped my joystick on my foot, as far as I know, no ones ever been hurt in this game. It's just a game. If it makes you feel better pretend you have a captured 109 and chase some LW birds.

Fritz

AnaK774
02-29-2004, 06:13 PM
The Blue Swastika also known as Von Rosen Cross was the symbol of Finnish Air Force from 1918 till 1945. It is NOT a nazi symbol.

Holosite
02-29-2004, 06:13 PM
Some people could be offended by the "most germans" remark,ask Oskar Schindler.

Franzen
02-29-2004, 06:31 PM
In fact I've read on a jewish website(can't remember which one)the stories about how many Germans were actually hiding Jews in their homes, something that meant endangering your whole family. we were't there and will never be able to understand the situation, or the truth. For my own personal questions(as a German)I've been studying this for a long time now. I still can't understand it due to the majority biased information available. Saying "most Germans" is stereotyping a people about something that is not stereotypical of them. I missed noticing "most Germans" in a previous post probably cause I'm used to hearing that.

Fritz

Franzen
02-29-2004, 06:36 PM
We must keep in mind that the message from the Nazi party to the German people was always "peace and work". Had the German people known the full extent of Hitler's plans he would have never gotten power. Germans like peace, work, and order, that's stereotypical.

Fritz

Cajun76
02-29-2004, 06:55 PM
*I chopped it up to leave only the points I was addressing. If you want, the parts I took out will go back in.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SUPERAEREO:
*
And about insignia: the Russian versions of IL-2 and FB DO display swastikas in both the German and Finnish markings.
*
I find it overkill when swastikas are removed from games and model kits: historically they were there and hiding them helps no-one. I think it's political correctness gone overboard, IMHO. At this rate we should remove Italian markings because they feature fasces.
*
I really believe that this being a game, we should have no problems with symbols, and even that eliminating them as they never existed can even turn out to be counter-productive in the long run.

Then again, it's only my opinion.


S!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I agree in large part about political correctness, displaying the swastika in some nations is illegal. So instead of special licensing and legal stuff, it's left out for simplicities sake. I believe that's even stated in the manual, but it's been awhile since I rooted through it.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/Real_35a.gif
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

ElfunkoI
02-29-2004, 07:31 PM
Four pages and not one person has said it? I don't fly with the swastika. Tried it at one point, but it just doesn't suit me. I do however fly german. Why? Because I like to fly for the underdog. No, not meaning I'm trying to help the germans win a war long lost. I mean I am flying for the most challenging side, the side everyone has been long convinced was "nerfed", the side where skill and concentration are at a much larger ratio to win and succeed than in other aircraft. In another game I flew allied only. There the allied side was "nerfed" (term used loosely and decided by popular public opinion, not my own). Then I hated flying for "the enemy" and actually harbored the same feelings the original poster felt. It just didn't feel right.

Anyway, I read The Blonde Knight of Germany a while back. He was just a normal guy, reminded me of many allied aces. I really didn't know what happened to captured germans until I read that book (and I know that was only a few things). Anyway, I lost concentration, been awake for too long and got almost no sleep yesterday.

"A6?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Will be A6!"

JR_Greenhorn
02-29-2004, 07:42 PM
I am drawn to the planes of FB for what they are: machines. I have been facinated with engines since a very young age, and continue to be to this day. To me, these planes are more than just "tools" (I cringe when they are so called); they are art in motion. I like the sound, the design, creativity, the asthesics, the emotions evoked by planes, motorcycles, autos, etc.

With the planes in FB I am usually reminded of the designer/design bureau that designed them--not the regime that employed them. As an engineering student, I feel like I can identify to some degree with these designers, and I think many (most?) of them were not products of their respective regimes. I do feel that many of these designers were not above taking advantage of the opportunity to create that was afforded to them by the ruling party, whether that was ethical or not. Don't you think that many of these great designers and engineers would have been working on advanced aircraft or similar projects in another country if fate would have placed them there instead?

Admittedly, I know much less of the personalities of these aircraft designers than I would like. I have read some of Dr. Ferdinand Porsche's story, and I find it an interesting example.

Before striking out on his own in the early 1930s, Dr. Porsche was a design chief at Daimler Benz. During WWII, he was consulted by Hitler himself (they say) for projects such as the Tiger tank and the people's car. Porsche supposedly referred to Hitler as Herr Hitler, and never Fuhrer (sp?). After the war, Dr. Porsche was hunted by the Americans, and sought refuge in France (if memory serves), then Austria. Since then, his company has become famous in its own right.

Now, while the Tiger tanks may evoke feelings of the same manner that are relevant to this thread, I don't think Volkswagens usually do, although both were products commissioned and designed by the same two men. It is my opinion that these machines, just like the planes of WWII, should be taken for what they are, and not what spawned them.

huggy87
02-29-2004, 08:07 PM
There have been some great posts in this thread. On a much smaller scale, I was forced to make my own ethical decisions of actions from WW2. I am born and raised American, but of 1/4 german ancestery. I had the opportunity many years ago to actually go back and visit distant relatives in Cologne, Germany. The Great Aunt I stayed with was only 4 when the war ended and told me she remembered her father giving the 'heil hitler' salute. She also lost her father somewhere on the western front. I have seen the pictures of the devestation in cologne and other cities such as dresden. Did I feel any remorse that my country caused such devestation? I was seeing the effects first-hand... a four-year old relative who lost her daddy for reasons she couldn't comprehend. No. I came to the conclusion that I would not have spared one bomb or bullet that was sent against Germany, innocent civilian or not. Heartless? Maybe. But it was total war, and the population provided the weapons. How sad it is that human beings will do this to one-another. How even sadder it is that all of us here 'enjoy' video games depicting what to these individuals was tragedy.

ElfunkoI
02-29-2004, 08:13 PM
Referring to two posts above, I now have a new outlook. From now on every time I see a volkswagon coming down the road I will take cover and shake of fear, fear of its past... LOL.

"A6?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Will be A6!"

JR_Greenhorn
02-29-2004, 08:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElfunkoI:
Referring to two posts above, I now have a new outlook. From now on every time I see a volkswagon coming down the road I will take cover and shake of fear, fear of its past... LOL.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As well you should!
That was the point of my post, after all.

BaronVonSnoopy
02-29-2004, 08:35 PM
There were a lot of LW pilots who stated in post war interviews that they didn't want to be known as a nazi, but as a pilot, as they felt they were serving their country. I served my country, but I don't want to be known as a "capitalist pig" because of it. I fly LW in FB, and I do it with historical markings. I don't use historical markings to offend, but because they are historical. Kind of the same thing with scale modeling; you build it to be a replica.

Istreliteli
02-29-2004, 08:44 PM
Although i respect the Wehrmacht for doing their duty and being soldiers in a world war they didnt start, I really hate how people glorify the LW and its pilots, maybe its contempt for the soviets or its some other wierd feeling, anyway it makes me uncomfortable, and if i ever fly a german plane i use red markings.

The king called up his jet fighters, he said you better earn your pay; drop your bombs between the minarets, down the casbah way...-Another Clash Fanatic

Istreliteli
02-29-2004, 08:46 PM
srry double post

The king called up his jet fighters, he said you better earn your pay; drop your bombs between the minarets, down the casbah way...- Yeah its Another Clash Fanatic

Kampfmeister
02-29-2004, 09:08 PM
Well, so far it hasn't turned into too much of a flame fest. Hopefully things will continue on fairly peacefully. A lot has already been said so far, much of which I have to agree with but not all.

I'm an American of ethnic German background. I primarily fly LW planes because that is my heritage, and I also prefer flying for the underdogs as I do in any game. I don't add the swastika to my planes tail, because one I am too lazy, and two I don't think it really looks good anyway. If the game would have normally had the swastika on the tail, I would still fly it because one it would be historically accurate, and two I'm flying a German plane not a Nazi plane. Some people can't differentiat that fact. That, and it is not real, it's a game, although some people can't seem to differentiate this fact from real life and let their own prejudices take over their emotions.

I also like to fly Russian (Not Communist), and Americans and British (Not Capitalists) because I like the aircraft. Knowing about the atrocities the Russians committed against the Germans, should that prevent me from flying a Lagg? How about the 600K+ German civilian deaths caused by the British and American bombing raids, or the hundreds of thousands of German POWs that starved to death after the war? Should that prevent me from flying a P-51 or Hurricane? By all rights non of us should be flying any of these aircraft. Except of course the Finnish ones http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Right now I'm enjoying Extreme One's BoB, shooting down Germans.

Fact is, I like to shoot things down, and I don't care what side they are on. I never think about shooting down an individual, just the aircraft itself. EMitton this is your thread, and a good one at that. The fact that you question your feelings simply shows that you are human, and you should be proud of that fact. Do what your heart tells you too, and what you think is right. In the end it is your decision and most of us won't judge you for it. Just don't let your prejudices and emotions get the better of you. One more thing. Please don't judge those of us that like to fly LW planes and brand us as Nazi sympathizers like some selfrighteous people in this forum like to do.

dieadler
02-29-2004, 09:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rummyrum:
Ater its creation, Israel used 109s if I am not mistaken. Remember the past but dont dwell on it. Also read about the Luftwaffe and you will see that not all Germans were Nazis just like all Americans are'nt Republicans. They were just doing their duty. All societies have had their bloody past.

That is correct. Israel also used Mauser 98K rifles and removed the Nazi proof marks.
9./JG54 Rummy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JoachimvMayern
02-29-2004, 09:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rummyrum:
Ater its creation, Israel used 109s if I am not mistaken. Remember the past but dont dwell on it. Also read about the Luftwaffe and you will see that not all Germans were Nazis just like all Americans are'nt Republicans. They were just doing their duty. All societies have had their bloody past.

9./JG54 Rummy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what's that supposed to mean? You comparing nazi's to republicans?

Bearcat99
02-29-2004, 09:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alexi_Alx_Anova:
Can't resist.
i) It's just a game. It's action. It's a 3D world. It's fun.
ii) But, "Many LW pilots were just flying for their country". Hmmm, if my country was saying it was the master race and that we had the right to invade other countries, kill people, and take what we wanted, I sure as hell wouldn't be flying for "my" country. I'd be out of their pronto!
iii) What's jewish got to do with this really? What if you were a gypsy or gay or disagreed? They all got the chop in equal proportions as well. Ask rather, "I'm a human being, so should I be playing this game?"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True this is "just a game" but I can understand so well how so many feel...... Eventhough I must say I do have issues with the Holocaust being shoved down my throat every day...and in the US it is every day..you will see something somewhere about the Holocaust. And yes there were lots of other victims of the Nazi attrocities..but the thing that I had to remind myself of is, that although all the victims of the death camps were not Jewish.... it is important to remember that most of the Jews in the conflict were indeed victims and THIS is why we must always remind ourselves of what happened there...that a group of people were singled out for extermination.... solely on thier birth. This had never happened before in modern times on such a scale... even the African slave trade and the conquest of the Americas...horrendous as they were had an economic twist to them, touching on that age old sin greed..... what happend to the Jews was just pure and undiluted evil. Fortunately none of the people responsible for that had anything to do with this sim. And for what its worth.. I think everytime you boot this baby up... whether your ancestors were beset by Nazi storm troopers or Comunist thugs, or sheet wearing rednecks who thought like them... you are saying.. IM here d@mmit!! I am not only here but i can enjoy my life and some of the simple pleasures in it.... like tooling around in the virtual skies flying whatever plane I want to.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://www.mudmovers.com/)

[This message was edited by Bearcat99 on Sun February 29 2004 at 08:58 PM.]

tttiger
02-29-2004, 10:19 PM
Josf...you are right about missed opportunities lost because of prejudices. That's something we all should be careful about. I don't know what sort of a fellow Franz Stigler was, but I would like to have chatted with him. From what I have read, many top American aces became friends with and had great admiration for Adolph Galland, who became a key figure in the early years of NATO.

About 20 years ago, I was fortunate to meet and have many long conversations (in the Bahamas of all places) with Leni Reifenstahl (sp?), Hitler's favorite film maker (and an enormously talented one) who made "Triumph of the Will," arguably the most powerful propaganda film ever made. I didn't hate her. In fact, I felt very honored that she would spend so much time talking to me. She died last year, by the way. And I was sad when I read about it. I hope I don't let my prejudices cause me to miss opportunities.

To those who commented about my use of "most Germans" that's exactly what I meant. Not ALL Germans but not a minority, either. Oskar Schindler was in a very small and very brave minority, sad to say. Happily, so was Josef Mengele. Most were just members of the "silent majority," and that's always a foolish thing to be. We get the leaders we deserve because of our reticence.

I'm 3/4 German (I spoke German before I spoke English) but I can't say I understand the Germans. Technologically the most advanced people in the world. Martin Luther led the Christians of the Western World out of ignorance into enlightenment. Philosophers. Musicians. Painters. Architects...but...how could they have done what they did?

I just put that behind me as best I can and say I am an American. But when I see a bf109 or a Tiger Tank or a Kubelwagen (yes, a VW with a jeep body http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) those symbols get to me.

It really is about the symbols, you know. And perceptions.

The hopeful thing is that it is dying. The younger members of this community hardly understand what I'm writing about. And that's a good thing. In another generation (20 years)everyone who lived in those times will be gone. It may take another generation or two, but forgiveness is moving in the right direction.

On the other hand, when we Jews say "Never Again!" we MEAN "Never Again!" Attack us and it will cost you dearly. Some Arabs haven't heard that message even though we've been bloodying their noses since 1948. And we will still be saying "Never Again!" forever.

Sorry if it gets a tad monotonous, Bearcat http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. But your very thoughtful post says you understand why. And for those of you who don't, go watch "The Pianist" or "Schindler's List." That isn't fiction. Those horrors really happened.

Aloha,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

[This message was edited by tttiger on Sun February 29 2004 at 09:32 PM.]

[This message was edited by tttiger on Sun February 29 2004 at 09:37 PM.]

necrobaron
02-29-2004, 10:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tttiger:
Josf...you are right about missed opportunities lost because of prejudices. That's something we all should be careful about. I don't know what sort of a fellow Franz Stigler was, but I would like to have chatted with him. From what I have read, many top American aces became friends with and had great admiration for Adolph Galland, who became a key figure in the early years of NATO.

About 20 years ago, I was fortunate to meet and have many long conversations (in the Bahamas of all places) with Leni Reifenstahl (sp?), Hitler's favorite film maker (and an enormously talented one) who made "Triumph of the Will," arguably the most powerful propaganda film ever made. I didn't hate her. In fact, I felt very honored that she would spend so much time talking to me. She died last year, by the way. And I was sad when I read about it. I hope I don't let my prejudices cause me to miss opportunities.

To those who commented about my use of "most Germans" that's exactly what I meant. Not ALL Germans but not a minority, either. Oskar Schindler was in a very small and very brave minority, sad to say. Happily, so was Josef Mengele. Most were just members of the "silent majority," and that's always a foolish thing to be. We get the leaders we deserve because of our reticence.

I'm 3/4 German (I spoke German before I spoke English) but I can't say I understand the Germans. Technologically the most advanced people in the world. Martin Luther led the Christians of the Western World out of ignorance into enlightenment. Philosophers. Musicians. Painters. Architects...but...how could they have done what they did?

I just put that behind me as best I can and say I am an American. But when I see a bf109 or a Tiger Tank or a Kubelwagen (yes, a VW with a jeep body http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) those symbols get to me.

It really is about the symbols, you know. And perceptions.

The hopeful thing is that it is dying. The younger members of this community hardly understand what I'm writing about. And that's a good thing. In another generation (20 years)everyone who lived in those times will be gone. It may take another generation or two, but forgiveness is moving in the right direction.

On the other hand, when we Jews say "Never Again!" we MEAN "Never Again!" Attack us and it will cost you dearly. Some Arabs haven't heard that message even though we've been bloodying their noses since 1948. And we will still be saying "Never Again!" forever.

Sorry if it gets a tad monotonous, Bearcat http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. But your very thoughtful post says you understand why. And for those of you who don't, go watch "The Pianist" or "Schindler's List." That isn't fiction. Those horrors really happened.

Aloha,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

[This message was edited by tttiger on Sun February 29 2004 at 09:32 PM.]

[This message was edited by tttiger on Sun February 29 2004 at 09:37 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Very well put Tiger,but I think you're selling the younger generation short,by saying we "couldn't understand". I'm 19,but I can understand why you feel the way you do on this matter. My own grandfather was shot twice by the Germans in North Africa in 1942. I loved him dearly,but I don't let what happened to him affect the way I feel for Germans. He didn't.

"Not all who wander are lost."

tttiger
03-01-2004, 01:04 AM
Ah, Necro, sri mate.

See the problem of painting (anything) with too broad a brush? I plead guilty http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

necrobaron
03-01-2004, 01:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tttiger:
Ah, Necro, sri mate.

See the problem of painting (anything) with too broad a brush? I plead guilty http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

ttt

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NP. To be honest, I suppose it was a fair statement. I know that many my age have completely lost context with WWII. One of my friends actually thought Pearl Harbor was in New York City. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif I just wanted it to be clear that we aren't all ignorant whipper-snappers.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Not all who wander are lost."

Mitlov47
03-01-2004, 02:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:

True this is "just a game" but I can understand so well how so many feel...... Eventhough I must say I do have issues with the Holocaust being shoved down my throat every day...and in the US it is every day..you will see something somewhere about the Holocaust. And yes there were lots of other victims of the Nazi attrocities..but the thing that I had to remind myself of is, that although all the victims of the death camps were not Jewish.... it is important to remember that most of the Jews in the conflict were indeed victims and THIS is why we must always remind ourselves of what happened there...that a group of people were singled out for extermination.... solely on thier birth. This had never happened before in modern times on such a scale... even the African slave trade and the conquest of the Americas...horrendous as they were had an economic twist to them, touching on that age old sin greed..... what happend to the Jews was just pure and undiluted evil. Fortunately none of the people responsible for that had anything to do with this sim. And for what its worth.. I think everytime you boot this baby up... whether your ancestors were beset by Nazi storm troopers or Comunist thugs, or sheet wearing rednecks who thought like them... you are saying.. IM here d@mmit!! I am not only here but i can enjoy my life and some of the simple pleasures in it.... like tooling around in the virtual skies flying whatever plane I want to.

http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html_vflyer@comcast.net_ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good post, Bearcat.

While I am aware of the presence of Poles, disabled people, homosexuals, etc in the death camps, and I do not mean to diminish their suffering, it is worth remembering that Hitler's main thrust seemed to be at the Jewish people, and in four years, he managed to kill 1/3 of the world's Jewish population.

Likewise, the Ku Klux Klan "also" targets Jews and Catholics, but at the end of the day, it's hatred and terrorism is aimed primarily at African-Americans.

And while the evil of the Final Solution was certainly unique in world history, I would go so far as to say that it was inherently worse than the slave trade. Just a different form of pure evil.

Hey, do you where I could find some good Tuskeegee USAAF skins? I know you mentioned some earlier in the thread.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

[For clarification: I own the original IL-2, not Forgotten Battles.]

BlackHawkLeader
03-01-2004, 02:25 AM
I would request that both of these individuals bring the conversation back on topic. This conversation is about individual's comfort with flying for the Luftwaffe, the VVS, etc. It is NOT a religious debate or a discussion of modern international relations. I don't want this thread to go there.

Regliouse Debate? LOL!
I hardly think so, since 1948 it has been historical fact, no longer open to debate!

I have already seen many references here in this thread to Jews and Nazis, and Swastikas and flying for the Luftwaffe!
Are you comfortable flying for the Luftwaffe using Swastikas?

Yes of course no problem, our nation was part of the Victoriouse Allied Nations.
We won the right in battle to use the emblems of our defeated enemies in any way we so choose, if we want too.
When the Soviets had a big victory parade in RED Square after the deafeat of Nazi Germany they paraded all the captured Nazi banners held down wards, through the streets.

The ultimate irony is to see Me109s wearing the insignia of the Star of David, see how Gods justice is perfect!

Simple eh!

MatuDa
03-01-2004, 02:29 AM
Dang guys.. I have the same kind of ethical problems playing quake.. should I shoot that zombie 'cuz he used to be human? I'm confused about all this... IT IS A FRIGGIN' GAME http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Franzen
03-01-2004, 05:25 AM
Matuda, I'm confused. If a zombie used to be a live human, therefor he must be dead when you encounter one. Since he's dead and you are killing them, does that mean you are bringing them back to life? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif I can see the ethical problems with that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Save the zombies! Kill'em all! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

maxim26
03-01-2004, 07:27 AM
I have a question. Many people here say, that German soldiers were not Nazies, they were just soldiers, doing their duty.

The question is what was their duty? To protect Fartherland? As far as I remember Fartherland was not in denger and bigest part of the war German soldiers were fighting on foreign territory, thousends kilomiters away from home.

Hitler didn't comite this crimes with his own hands. It was done by "just soldiers".

Bearcat99
03-01-2004, 08:12 AM
Mit you can go to our site to get some of them...and more are on IL2 skins..... most of the ones available however are on our site.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://www.mudmovers.com/)

Maple_Tiger
03-01-2004, 08:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
I'm an American. My grandfather flew the P-47 in WWII.

I hate flying the P-47.

How can I say that? BECAUSE THIS IS A GAME!!

I fly with JG27. I am not a Nazi. I prefer flying the bf-109 because I have found it is the plane that most fits the style of flying I have come to excell at. I fly with JG27 because I met them, and they are a good bunch of guys. We aren't a German squadron. We just took the name. Hell, we could be called the "Beer Swiller / A$$ Kickers" for all I care.

I'm not here for idiology. I just likes me some flyin!

http://www.ghostskies.com/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I didnt know your grandfather flew the P-47 in WWII. I think Eagle's grandfather also flew the P-47 in WWII. You guys have something in comin.

Do you actualy have an airplane stuck in your head?

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

Franzen
03-01-2004, 09:29 AM
Hey Guyz,
I first came to this forum cause I figured we all had something in common and common interests. I am very disappointed. Some of the guyz in here write some really interesting thoughts and opinions and seem to be pretty good guys. But there are just a few too many that don't know their elbows from their ears, and if you are now not even second guessing what you've written then you know who you are. I feel bad for you because even though they say "ignorance is bliss", I wouldn't want to be you. My father(German)told me never to state anything unless you know 110% it is true. Words to live by.
EMitton, I'm sure your purpose wasn't to bring out the worse in people and I think you're probably a good guy. As for your original question about ethics, think of how much German technology you use everyday. You then have too many ethical questions. I would also recommend you study a little more about Jewish history. There are some really good Jewish sites out there but you'll have to spend a long time studying them.
For the guy that met(I envy you)Leni Riefenstahl who said that "Triumph of the Will" was a propaganda film, yes you are right. It is a positive propaganda film. It's strickly and message of peace, work, and national pride(sound familiar?). If you can't understand German then I would suggest you get a translated version or a German speaking friend to help. Once more, that movie was prewar.
I am very proud to be German. In the past some of my people did some terrible things(no words can describe)leaving me to feel shame which led me to spend years trying to find out why these things happened. But guess what, I wasn't there and had nothing to do with it! Most of my family died fighting for their country, bombed as civilians, or died in concentration camps, yes, concentration camps. I don't feel shame now, I feel sorrow for the victims, all of them. It wasn't a German thing, it was a human thing with a very long history.
I am deeply disappointed with some of the ignorance and prejudices I've read in this thread and a few others. Some of you guyz really need to trade in your 1950 grade 3 history books and start studying. The way I feel now I probably won't be part of this forum again.

Fritz

NorrisMcWhirter
03-01-2004, 09:53 AM
Hi,

I have no problems about flying for the LW because, as people have said, I've read some books that have indicated that most were not dyed in the wool "Nazis" but just soldiers fighting for their country. In fact, a lot of these people were very cynical towards the ideology of their country's leadership and methods.

I'd also be interested for anyone to name a country that has not committed "atrocities" towards others in its history - I can't think of any, but I'd like to be enlightened.

The Germans get a bad press for some very good reasons but a good proportion of it is through post-war 'historical' propaganda in the form of movies and such like.

Cheers,
Norris


================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam : http://cabinessence.cream.org/

More irreverence:
http://www.tvgohome.com/

AWL_Spinner
03-01-2004, 10:18 AM
Interesting thread which has stayed the course better than expected, I think,

Online, I'm in a VVS squad. However, I love flying 109s, just as I love flying Hurricanes. In common with many others here, I just have a fascination with that period of aviation history and conflict.

I can't imagine cutting off 50% of the potential experience by limiting myself to one side's aircraft. Plus the engine whine in the Messerschmitts in this game is one of it's audio triumphs. However, that's just me. People fly what they feel comfy in, and that's just great.

My grandparents were involved in both England and Burma, I don't think I'm doing them any disservice by occasionally flying virtual (virtual being the operative word) Luftwaffe, or Japanese.

True enough, I enjoy it most when flying with the RAF's roundels on the wing, but every now and again it's good to see things from a different perspective. We have those freedoms today, and that's a good thing.

Cheers, Spinner

http://www.alliedwingedlegion.com/members/signatures/spinner_sig.jpg

Abraxa
03-01-2004, 10:35 AM
Some members of my family died in WW2, but I have no problem to fly planes of both sides, and I mostly enjoy the LW ones much more. I can understand that for a Jew things can be much different.
Emitton, the rational answer to your question is that this is just a game, but I feel this is not a satisfying answer, since here are involved things that go far beyond what is merely rational.
To summarize, it's all about how deep are the wounds in your skin and if they're steel bleeding. If you can enjoy flying a German 109 against the Allies without feeling somehow guilty or discomfortable, then it's ok. It doesn't mean that you turn your head or betray a memory. It's just that you luckily belong to another generation that can "play" a WW2 game.
If this instead compromises your fun and makes you feel bad, then simply leave it. It's ok, very respectable and understandable anyway you see it. It's really all up to you, and no one can decide or "feel" in your place.

Cheers

BBB_Abraxa

crazyivan1970
03-01-2004, 10:38 AM
Interesting thread indeed.
I am russian ... but still i fly LW exclusive since IL2 Demo. Why? I don`t know. You know, it`s actually kinda wierd.. i just remembered... my best friend refuses to buy Mercedes cars because Mercedes use to assemble mobile gas chambers where thousends of civilians were poisend to death during the war. Silly... maybe. But in the same time he has no problem driving BMW.
I think it`s rather simple... there is no real connection between what nazies did 60+ years ago and fine piece of german machinery. At least i don`t see one. Needless to say that if you really think about this... Hitler was a baby comparing to Stalin..

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Cossack_UA
03-01-2004, 11:55 AM
I see WWII as a struggle between the nations, and not their leaders. Hitler didn't challenge Stalin or Churchill on a pistol duel, did he?
Ordinary people worked long hours day and night deprived of food and simple pleasures of life to produce war machines that would kill millions of other people just like them. Ordinary man would faced each other on the field of battle for what?
Some of them wanted somebody elses land so their nation could prosper. Others took arms to protect the street they were born and raised on. Some of them would join partisans at the age of 15 to avenge the death of a brother who was only 3 years older.

Noo ne fought for Stalin. Noone fought for Hitler. Every one fought for his/her own self.

huggy87
03-01-2004, 12:36 PM
I have noticed a common theme among many posts in this thread. An attitude of "I wasn't there it's not my fault; They were just following orders; It was many generations ago; We had lousy leaders, but most of our people were great; etc."

I have to say that the people of a nation do bear some measure of responsibility for the actions of their leaders. Not to pick on the Germans, but young Germans are notorious for taking the attitude described above. At least they are not in complete denial like the Japanese.

I realize my own country's hands are not clean. In America, what our forefathers did to the natives and slaves was inexcusable. I guess it will just take a few more generations in Germany before the people come to terms with World War 2.

The important thing is to keep the lessons learned fresh in the minds of the people and leaders- a task possibly made more difficult as WW2 vets get thinner every day. It is scary how many people already believe that the holocaust never happened.

BlackHawkLeader
03-01-2004, 12:39 PM
How True! The Folly of Man!
A Gate from Hell opened in the Earth!
In Germany!
There where going to be No Jews Left to full fill the Phopecy of Israel!

One day the Jews will Rule the World,
Or we will,
Joseph Goebels ( Nazi propaganda Minister)

Skullin
03-01-2004, 12:41 PM
Who are any of you to say what's right or wrong? Maybe some LW pilots ARE Nazi's, then what? are they not allowed to post on this forum then? are they not allowed to play the game becuase of their own political and/or ethical beliefs? I fail to see why these topics even exist. who cares?

03-01-2004, 12:57 PM
First, let me congratulate to EMitton for starting such a great thread, so far very peaceful, despite the sensitive subject !

As for flying Axis planes... I have no trouble flying that, as I usually fly with Hungarian insignia. We produced some 700 Bf 109Gs during the war under license, G-4s, G-6s, G-14s.. the best Hungarian squadrons flew the from late 1942 onwards, all model from 109E to K. To me it means our chaps, the ones that were flying mostly in direct defense of the country in 1944, taking a dozen Messers against hundreds bombers and escorts, just to bring a few bombers down in a single pass and then get away as fast as they could... or flying CAP over the front and hunting Yaks and Sturmoviks. I dont have a problem with that heritage. Neither do I with flying a Soviet plane, even despite my grandfather died in Soviet POW camps, and my family suffered under the Communist regime the Soviets brought. I have no problem because of that with Russians, people, or history, or their planes. The way I admire the 109 for its advanced technology (for the time), I also admire Yakovlev`s Yak-3 for being comparable, despite nothing else was available then much worser industrial background, poor materials and copies of old French aero engines with half the power output of a Mercedes-Benz. Still, the inguinity of Yakovlev brought out the very best from all that. I don`t mind flzing under a swastika, neither do I prefer it for other than historical sense. I don`t have trouble with the Red Star either - even both are banned symbols here. But on a plane, they represent the same as a Roman cohort`s Eagle. That`s the way it looked like. That`s the way it should be. Also, if I fly under German colours, I don`t have problem with that. I admire German military skill of the centuries; I don`t have to admire the crimes they, or others committed during WW2. I amdire the bravery and skill of some exceptional man like Rudel, regardless of the cause he did it for. In Israel, they were smart enough to study German WW2 tactics/strategies after WW2, and so were in other countries. To use the useful things. So, if guys who just left a KZ camp could say, Some historians I have read draw a parellel line between the state of Israel, and the old Prussian Kingdom. They share many similiarities, small, but advanced countris that manage to survive, sorrounded by hostiles due to superior military skills.

Re : The Avia 199. It was basically an ad hoc fighter, put together from parts that was available in CZ after WW2, hence the nickname Mule. It was hybrid, a 109G airframe, a usual Erla canopy, or even that of a FW 190 D-9`s canopy, with the old Jumo 211 engine that was mounted in German bombers... all just thrown together, and they were happy that it flew.. charachteristics were not good because there was no real design work, they just put unsuited parts together.. many also flew with permanent wing mounted cannon gondolas, those didnt help either. BUT it could fly, and even if was behind the original Messer in it`s handling, it was still quite capable shooting down enemy a/c. For an enemy bomber, all the rought handling didn`t help much.

RicknZ
03-01-2004, 12:59 PM
If you had of watched schindlers list recently you too could be really nagged by the thought of flying nazi equipment.

Best to steer clear of political thoughts thoughm like the B17, slaughterer of woman and children etc etc.

The one aircraft i feel quezy about myself is the stuka as it always reminds me of that damned to hell hans rudel.

Holosite
03-01-2004, 01:06 PM
Personally,I dont give a hoot in hell if some guy plays this game naked except for a SS helmet in front of his computer while tossing off to pictures of Hitler.Its just a damn game and what some guy does while flying it is his business,lets cut the guilt crap already..how can you lay the guilt thing on some 16 year old kid in the forums here(as i'm sure some of you are)who's just now sprouting the first hairs on his nuts and blame him and his ancestors for something that happened 60 years ago....

Cossack_UA
03-01-2004, 01:10 PM
I just pictured a naked dude in SS Helmet flying FB. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

BuzzU
03-01-2004, 01:23 PM
I just fly the P-51 and don't worry about it.

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

Jirozaemon
03-01-2004, 01:35 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by huggy87:
I have noticed a common theme among many posts in this thread. An attitude of "I wasn't there it's not my fault; They were just following orders; It was many generations ago; We had lousy leaders, but most of our people were great; etc."

I have to say that the people of a nation do bear some measure of responsibility for the actions of their leaders. Not to pick on the Germans, but young Germans are notorious for taking the attitude described above. At least they are not in complete denial like the Japanese.
QUOTE]

I think there is not even a bit of denial in the german media and the public discussion. In my opinion many young Germans are well aware of their history and their heritage.
Our resposiblity is to know about the 3rd Reich and to make sure that such a human catastrophe can never occur a second time. But I also think that my generation cannot be jugded by the crimes of our grandfathers. We were brought up in a free, peaceful, tolerant and democratic country which reflects the US or the UK in many ways.
Last but not least there is one thing I´m very happy about: there is a jewish community (over 100.000 members as far as I know) which decided to stay in the country that was responsible for so much terror and pain in the past. You have to keep in mind that the crimes of the Nazis were also crimes against their own people as many victims of the holocaust were Germans of jewish religion.

Take care... Regards

Jiro

tttiger
03-01-2004, 01:43 PM
LOL, Buzz, that's my solution, too, now that we finally have US and UK planes and are getting more.

The original question way back at the start of this threat was about whether we see a moral conflict flying LW planes and how we deal with it.

I do see a conflict and I don't fly 'em. As recently as yesterday a guy I wing with all the time kept saying to me, "C'mon let's fly an FW this time."

He did. I flew a Jug. We tried our best to kill each other http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif No big deal. We're still (virtual) friends.

I'm not going to judge you because you do or don't fly LW. But I can't and I won't. And that's my short answer to the question in the first post.

Again, I think much of it is a generational thing. A couple people who posted here mention their grandfathers were P-47 pilots. That's two generations away from the people who posted. Well, my favorite uncle flew Jugs all across Europe. That's only one generation away from me. I'm not as "detached" as younger members of this community.

It's a cliché, but time really does heal all wounds.

(And watching "Triumph of the Will" makes my blood run cold.)

(and, no, the Israelis did not borrow strategy and tactics from the German manuals. Most of the Israeli officers served in the British Army in WWII and their doctrine was written by Mickey Marcus, a US Ranger officer in WWII who was the last man to die in the 1948 war (shot by an Israeli guard). He's buried at West Point. Let's at least keep the facts straight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

Aloha,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

[This message was edited by tttiger on Mon March 01 2004 at 12:51 PM.]

[This message was edited by tttiger on Mon March 01 2004 at 12:55 PM.]

Cossack_UA
03-01-2004, 01:53 PM
How WWII was different from any other war in history? Massive human losses. The interesting part is of around 60 million casualties total in WWII 50% (!!!) were civilians. Compare it to only 5% during WWI. 6 millions jews is a drop in a sea compared to millions of civilian casualties of other nations. The result of a half-year seige of Leningrad is 1.5 - 2 million women, children, and handicapped dead of hunger, constant shelling, and boming.

Germany civilan losses where around 3% of population. USSR civilan losses were 10% of population. And percentages don't do justice to these figures. You gotta compare totals Germany-2 million civilian losses. USSR - 19 million civilian losses.

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html

Mitlov47
03-01-2004, 02:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cossack_UA:
How WWII was different from any other war in history? Massive human losses. The interesting part is of around 60 million casualties total in WWII 50% (!!!) were civilians. Compare it to only 5% during WWI. 6 millions jews is a drop in a sea compared to millions of civilian casualties of other nations. The result of a half-year seige of Leningrad is 1.5 - 2 million women, children, and handicapped dead of hunger, constant shelling, and boming.

Germany civilan losses where around 3% of population. USSR civilan losses were 10% of population. And percentages don't do justice to these figures. You gotta compare totals Germany-2 million civilian losses. USSR - 19 million civilian losses.

http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob62.html<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Six million Jews isn't a drop in the sea when you consider that there were fewer than 20 milliion Jews on the planet in 1940. Germans lost 3% of their population; Soviets lost 10%; world Jewry lost 33%. If you factor out American Jews, who were safely away from the Nazi grasp, roughly 50% of European Jews were killed in just four years. I don't have exact figures for Polish Jews or German Jews, but I believe their deaths were 70-80% of the populations.

You're the one who mentioned percentages. Well, look at the percentages. Percentages ARE significant if you're talking about "genocide," which is the wiping out of a certain population.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Coming soon to a battlefield near you in an Israeli Air Force BF-109.

Cossack_UA
03-01-2004, 02:07 PM
i didn't try to deminish jewish factor. Sorry if I did. I was just saing that a hole lot more of non combatants(other than jews) died in that war. And that how it was different from other wars.

And if you take USSR, which is not a nation, and break it down by nations that took the blow than you'll understand that alot of inocent people were wipped out of other nations.

watteville
03-01-2004, 02:16 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by EMitton:
Hi everyone,

I hope that this conversation will remain classy and polite.

Here's my problem. After dogfighting with BF-109s and FW-190s with every single allied plane in the original IL2, I finally decided to try the other side. And I really, really dig the BF-109 (especially the late-war models with the M108 in the nose).

HOWEVER...

I'm a Jew. And no matter how many times I say to myself "It's just a game," I feel really uncomfortable flying for the Luftwaffe with my grandparents' menorah in the corner of my room. I'm not saying Joseph Stalin was all sunshine and roses at all. But even though it's just a game, I feel awkward flying for a military that was trying to wipe my family off the face of the earth.

How do others deal with this? Do you just not worry about it? Do you have some way of rationalizing it? I'm not guilt-tripping y'all; I'm looking for a way to feel comfortable flying a plane that I really like.
[quote]

Think of it as German technology; All my Jewish buddies in NYC drive Beamers, Mercedes, Porshes and make coffe with Krups expresso machines, they don't seem to have a problem spending $$$ on companies that were Nazi 50 years ago. This is a game

Vladimir_No2
03-01-2004, 02:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Saturnalia2:
Fly Finnish. All ethical problems solved and you get the nifty LW aircraft to fly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What a great comment. I certainly agree.

http://ww1.m78.com/photo-2/scharnhorst.jpg
"Engage the enemy more closely" -Rear Admiral Cradock

DONB3397
03-01-2004, 02:42 PM
Ummm...which political and ethnic views did the 109 have, exactly?

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/3fe77b7e_1812a/bc/Images/Sig---1.jpg?BCWF8PAB24YqLZQo

Mitlov47
03-01-2004, 02:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vladimir_No2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Saturnalia2:
Fly Finnish. All ethical problems solved and you get the nifty LW aircraft to fly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What a great comment. I certainly agree.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check my new sig.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Coming soon to a battlefield near you in an Israeli BF-109 or a Finnish Brewster Model 239.

[This message was edited by EMitton on Mon March 01 2004 at 02:00 PM.]

huggy87
03-01-2004, 02:49 PM
Jiro, I assume you are German, so you probably know 'German attitudes' better than I do. I am glad to hear that generations since WW2 are so open minded. Most Germans from the 40's claim they had no idea what was happening to the Jews. They also, at the time, did not seem to question the motives of invading so many countries.

We are both in agreement that present generations do not bear responsibility for the past, but do have a responsibility to learn from it. I certainly do not feel guilty that 7 generations ago a part of my family owned slaves.

Kampfmeister
03-01-2004, 10:18 PM
Huggy, I had a few issues with your one post, but Jiro pretty much said what I wanted to say. Plus your last post kind of smoothed my ruffled feathers. Just some thoughts however. I'm an ethnic German, but not one of the younger ones. I'm only one generation removed from the war. My father was a 17 year old soldier fighting in France, and my mother was only 10 years old at the time.

It always amazes me how some people can blame an entire society for what they did or did not do. I'm sorry, but I guess I find it hard to blame my mother for not doing more to oust Hitler during the war. People seem to think in such simplistic terms, like all the Germans had to do was rise up against Hitler and it would have been all over. Maybe so, and maybe the Russian people could have done the same thing to Stalin. But none of you were there were you, living under the oppression? Not even you Tiger. I bet you didn't know there were some two dozen failed attempts to oust Hitler before and during the war. I make no apologies for what the Germans did. The responsibility squarely rests on the German people. But name one other nation that has tried so hard to come to grips with it's past and try to rectify things. The Germans have been paying for their mistakes for three generations now, and there is no immediate end in sight. The Japanese on the other hand hardly admit to even starting the war in the Pacific. Even now I beleive they are again revising their history texts. How is it they can get away with such blatant acts.

I've found over the years that people have pointed to Germany's horrific past as a way to ignore their own dark history. I'm sure that if many of you looked deep into the pool of your own country's history, you may find a reflection looking back at you that you will not like. This from such countries as the US, Britain, France, Russia, etc. and yes even Israel. Huggy, as far as America is concerned, I'm not even including slavery or the Indian wars in this. Just something to think about, next time someone wants to condemn someone else's past.

One more thing I wanted to mention. It's been said that Israel used what weapons they could lay their hands on out of necessity during their war of independence, such as German weapons like the S-199 and Mauser rifles. Only a few years ago, the Israeli navy took delivery of three new submarines, which were designed and built in Germany. Germany even paid for half of them. The modern IDF doesn't seem to have any problems using German technology.

Franzen
03-01-2004, 10:42 PM
Hey Guyz,
I've cooled down now and hope I didn't offend anyone, it wasn't my intention. Kampfmeister is right and what he wrote was well said. Germany and the German people have done their best to apologize and even generations to come will still feel guilt. As for my understanding Germany is now one of the first countries to jump in to defend Israel. Before the invasion of Iraq last year Germany donated defence missiles to Israel and special chemical defence teams to defend the Americans and Israelis against possible chemical attacks in Kuwait. You can't even imagine the effort that the Germans have made to try apologize for what happened. Nothing will ever bring back the countless lives or erase the unimaginable horrible experiences that people have suffered. But at least the two sides involved have more or less reconciled and have many positive cooperations. Just remember, the root causes of what happened were ignorance and prejustices.

Fritz

Franzen
03-01-2004, 10:49 PM
BTW, we all share a common interest here, beautiful planes. I still think of all of us virtual pilots(Jews, Germans, Americans, French, Chinese, and the list goes on) as a "Broadband of Brothers". Let's keep it that way http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
EMitton, if we ever meet online, just call me "wingman"

Fritz

Holosite
03-01-2004, 11:17 PM
You 2 guys are over-apologetic.My Grandfather came to the usa just before the war after serving in france in the 1st war.The German side of My family lived in and around Berlin.They were all killed.I never knew them.My mother lived in tokyo as a little girl and can tell you about what a B-29 raid is like.They would go to the nearest large,previously burnt out field to survive the next raid in order to avoid being burned to death by the fire bombs.I live here in the USA,in NYC,and hear enough pro-israeli crap in the news everyday and have to be constantly reminded of some sort of debt that the world owes them,as evidenced by the numerous posts here...sad that Germany 60 years later has to give them free handouts like the USA,which they then use to fence people in like animals,hold them without trial or charging with a crime for indefinite long periods,and blow them up with hellfire missiles on busy street corners in order to get one bad guy...you guys from other countries should watch the news over here sometimes,very,very one-sided....

Mitlov47
03-01-2004, 11:50 PM
Let me clarify.

I am not anti-German. I have nothing whatsoever against *modern* Germany. I think it's a great country. Neat culture, very ethical leadership, and you can't beat BMWs. It's actually some of the least anti-Semitism problems of any country in Europe, which is why it ties with Israel as the #1 place where Russian Jews are currently fleeing to.

I do not believe that 99% of the *WWII* German military was "just defending their wives and children" when they laid siege to the Warsaw Ghetto or marched to Stalingrad. I do not believe that 99% of WWII Germany disagreed with Nazi ideology and followed unwillingly. HOWEVER, THE SINS OF THE FATHER DO NOT TRANSFER TO THE SON. I do not blame modern Germany for the actions of 1930s and 1940s Germany, just as I do not blame modern America for slavery, Jim Crow, and Japanese internment.

I can never forgive the Nazi regime or those who fought to further its cause. But I've got nothing against modern Germany. As a matter of fact, if I were to relocate to Europe today, Germany is one of the top countries I would consider living in.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Coming soon to a battlefield near you in an Israeli BF-109 or a Finnish Brewster Model 239.

Holosite
03-02-2004, 12:00 AM
Especially after 1943,when they realized they were in BIG trouble,they grabbed everybody they could and threw them in the service.When your average soldier or pilot was 18 or 19 during this time,Hitler had already been in power long enough to get them in hot water and they had to fight..what would you do walking home from high school after a raid only to find your house burned to the ground and your family dead?

Holosite
03-02-2004, 12:04 AM
Point is that if the war started in 1939 and Hitker is in power for a few years before this,how old is the average soldier when he first gets in?12 years old?The German soldier was raised in this environment already before the war...whats a 12 year old supposed to do?

darkhorizon11
03-02-2004, 12:15 AM
"Personally,I dont give a hoot in hell if some guy plays this game naked except for a SS helmet in front of his computer while tossing off to pictures of Hitler.Its just a damn game and what some guy does while flying it is his business,lets cut the guilt crap already..how can you lay the guilt thing on some 16 year old kid in the forums here(as i'm sure some of you are)who's just now sprouting the first hairs on his nuts and blame him and his ancestors for something that happened 60 years ago...."


Whoever said that is one funny man. Damn straight, I started a thread like this to help satisfy my girfriend who had beef with this game. Its a waste of time.

Swastika is just a symbol. Given a symbol of evil as it is associated now but its actually thousands of years old and used to mean "good luck". In WW1 a squad of French pilots flew with a big swastika on the side of their plane. I'm not saying I'd walk around wearing a swastika braggin it means good luck but, just be responsible and mature about it.


Remember a strong mind and will is what makes a man dangerous.

Oh and the guy that trailed off and said Bush is the next Hitler is a MORON.

Franzen
03-02-2004, 12:24 AM
I never thought EMitton was antiGermen in the least. I was referring to some other guys that were, no doubt anti-everything that they know nothing about. As for Israel, I feel it is a problem but I don't compare Jews in general with Israel. A very small minority rule the majority of the people in the world. It's that minority that causes the world's problems. You can find this in every country. Israel's problems are not a Jewish thing but like other countries, a human thing. I have three Jewish friends, 2 from Israel and 1 from New York. All three of them dispise the Israeli government and want nothing to do with Israel.

Fritz

huggy87
03-02-2004, 12:34 AM
Kampfmeister,
You are certainly correct that it was tough for an individual (such as your mother) to do anything specifically to avert the war. I realize that freedom of speech was severely curtailed. You are also correct that there were many brave attempts to oust Hitler and end the craziness that he wrought. You and the other Germans on this thread have very mature, reasonable attitudes about this whole mess that generations before us got themselves into.

My point was that although the leadership may have taken paths that sane individuals would not want to follow, follow they did. The very word 'leader' implies that there are followers. A kind of critical mass develops amongst the individuals of the nation.

You cannot compare what the nazis did to the errors of other nations. Yes, genocide, has occured all through history, but it has never been so... mechanical, efficient, sterile, and industrial as WW2 Germany. It is all the scarier because it happened so recently in our 'enlightened' history and sensible 20th century people like you and me could not stop it.

As far as paying for past generations mistakes, it can sometimes get out of hand. It is noble what Germany has done for Israel, but an outrageous example can be found here in the U.S. There was recently a very strong movement here to provide a generous compensation package to all the decendants of slaves, at the tax payers expense, of course. Crazy. There has not been a slave here since the 1860's.

Cheers, Huggy

Mitlov47
03-02-2004, 02:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Holosite:
You 2 guys are over-apologetic.My Grandfather came to the usa just before the war after serving in france in the 1st war.The German side of My family lived in and around Berlin.They were all killed.I never knew them.My mother lived in tokyo as a little girl and can tell you about what a B-29 raid is like.They would go to the nearest large,previously burnt out field to survive the next raid in order to avoid being burned to death by the fire bombs.I live here in the USA,in NYC,and hear enough pro-israeli crap in the news everyday and have to be constantly reminded of some sort of debt that the world owes them,as evidenced by the numerous posts here...sad that Germany 60 years later has to give them free handouts like the USA,which they then use to fence people in like animals,hold them without trial or charging with a crime for indefinite long periods,and blow them up with hellfire missiles on busy street corners in order to get one bad guy...you guys from other countries should watch the news over here sometimes,very,very one-sided....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had hoped that by ignoring your repeated attempts to turn this thread into an Israeli-Palestinian flame-fest, you'd eventually stop. But I guess not. So let me respond briefly.

You say New Yorkers are "biased"? Well let's think about that for one little second. Gee, I wonder why NEW YORKERS are fed up with the "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" mantra. I wonder why NEW YORKERS generally support a country fighting Muslim extremist terrorism. I wonder why NEW YORKERS are unsympathetic toward populations that harbor terrorists, turn out in the tens of thousands to cheer for terrorist parades, and dress up their own infants like suicide bombers. I wonder why NEW YORKERS roll their eyes whenever the UN declares that countries should not take the fight to the terrorists' front door, and instead sit around waiting for their own cities to be scourged by bombings. What on earth could have possessed NEW YORKERS to feel this way? Gosh, let me think real hard about that.

Now that that's done with, can we PLEASE bring this thread back on track? The topic, if I remember correctly, is whether people have any ethical problems with flying for various factions in the computer game "IL-2 Sturmovik."

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Overwhelming odds mean nothing compared to heroism and tenacity. Fly blue and white: Finnish Brewster Model 239 and Israeli BF-109.

[This message was edited by EMitton on Tue March 02 2004 at 01:26 AM.]

BlackHawkLeader
03-02-2004, 02:20 AM
Despite reading the Rise and the Fall of the Third Riech, by William L Shirer, I still like to fly the 109s in FB, it takes more out of you when you are fighting the late War Model Allied planes.

Interesting to note, that it is still only about 60 years since the War ended, so of course people still talk about it a lot.

When our Grand childerns, Grand Children are dust blowing in the Wind, no doubt people will not even remember it except for a reference in history books, and World Leaders will still be trying to find a Peacefull Solution for Israel and its neighbours.

I was not trying to be funny there either, be assured of that.

Franzen
03-02-2004, 06:39 AM
I agree with you BlackHawkLeader. Just think, less than 100 years ago we had WW1. Not too many people talk about that one. It's memory was easily overshadowed by the memory of WW2. If it wasn't for WW2 maybe we'd all be playing "Get that mother Fokker!" Ha ha ha, sorry guyz, I couldn't resist.
No doubt something big will happen again within the next 50-100 years and probably overshadow WW2. I wonder what our great grand children will talk about.

Fritz

Wannabe-Pilot
03-02-2004, 09:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TooCool_12f:
Zarko Savic

You probably don't know him, he lives and works in zagreb, former yugoslavia, and now croatia http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm from Zagreb as well. Didn't know anybody else from Croatia visited these forums http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fehler
03-02-2004, 10:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
No doubt something big will happen again within the next 50-100 years and probably overshadow WW2. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's hope not, because that would mean mankind didnt learn their lesson.

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

Franzen
03-02-2004, 10:18 AM
It seems mankind forgets their lessons not too long after they've learnt them. That's a tragedy.

Fritz

AirBot
03-02-2004, 10:48 AM
I'm Jewish and live in Israel. I was born in Russia, my grandmother told me how they fled from the advancing German army, and my grandfather fought in the Soviet army during the war.

Nevertheless, I have no problems flying LW, for a few reasons:
- AFAIK, most Germans weren't Nazis and certainly didn't support the final solution. It seems unbelievable to us now, when we have all the facts, but I find little difficulty in believing that the veil of propoganda, oppression and disinformation used by the Nazis in Germany could hide the atrocities they pepetrated from most of the common people.
- I don't feel the aircraft represents a regime or an ideology. It simply is a beautiful piece of engineering. Since I can be sure the virtual representation of it that I'm flying wasn't built by slave labor or used to further the Nazi cause, I have no moral qualms about flying it.

Certainly, I am more detached from the war than some here, and I can understand why someone who was dive-bombed by Stukas or heard his father tell about it with fear would have problems with flying LW. But I don't see anything morally wrong with flying LW in FB.

Kudos to the community for keeping this volatile thread civil, with the exception of a few individuals who seem to be unable to resist going off on a tangent.
Anyone who feels the urge to discuss current events in Israel should feel free to contact me by PT on the subject, but I politely request that these people, as well as everyone else who has gone off on their personal tangents, keep on topic here so we can keep this conversation intelligent and civil.

I think I had some other (hopefully) good points, but I'm tired and unable to concentrate.

reverse5
03-02-2004, 11:36 AM
My late grandmother had fought Germans and their little Serb and Croat helpers since the very begining of WW2 in ex-Yugoslavia. She met my grandfather in Partisans (guerilla army led by Marshall Tito). I was always very passionate about history, especially about WW2 history - but my grandparents always refused to talk about the war. I vividly remeber the day back in 1990 when TV Zagreb was showing a neo-nazi rally... My granmother started crying, and when I tried to comfort her, she told me - you know, back in 44, I put a few of these bastards to sleep!

She had a certain look in her eyes that I will never forget.

I myself had been in war... One in Bosnia, in Sarajevo - my birthplace. I lost family members in Bosnian Army and as civilians, killed by shelling. I am of a Serb nationality. Serbs had commited some of the worst attrocities since WW2.

Having said that - I never fly an airplane with Swastika on it, but I don't have anything against the people that do. Lets not forget that Swastika is not just a symbol of something long gone - it is a very current symbol of fanaticysm and hate, and it is currently used by many groups in many countries. It has a modern meaning and modern role. People are still being beaten and killed under Swastika in many european countries and USA.

Now, as for me being a Serb - I can relate to Germans - they had to make peace with the holocaust and murder of millions carried out by their people during WW2. I am still in process of making peace with my own people and their modern history - and I am afraid that this might be a life-long process.

I do have a HK to turn on Swastika in my offline campaign - i get a kick every time I put a hole through it.

Holosite
03-02-2004, 12:11 PM
Emitton,
Maybe you live in some country where your army and police forces are allowed to kill 20 innocent bystanders to get one bad guy.(and that on a regular basis!)NYC wouldnt have to worry about being attacked by these maniacs if we didnt always rush to help our little brother in the Middle East.I'm not surprised it happened.Israel has a very effective army and intelligence service,let them fend for themselves.I'm not going off on a tangent when i read previous posts glorifying Israel and making guys who fly 109's nazis...

LBR_Barkhorn
03-02-2004, 12:34 PM
My grandfather fought in Italy with the "Brazilian expeditionary force", side by side with the americans in 5th army, buth, in every game, my preference is to play with the german armed forces, not because german politics in WWII, but because his equipments only...
my squadron is the "Luftwaffe Brasil", my gerschwarder is the I/KG51.
But i don't have any problems to play with other armies.

BlackHawkLeader
03-02-2004, 12:38 PM
The Internet has made us a Global community, when you discuss the ethics of using a Swastika in a Combat Flight Sim, Jews and WW2 and Israel will come up.
Its unavoidable because they are Historicaly linked, and by only one book.
The Book of truth, the Bible.
This is Fact Not Fiction, I have not found another book that fore tells comming events.
In the 1930s you would have been laughed at to suggest that Israel would be reborn as a Nation, because phropecy in the Bible fortold it.
In Nazi Germany you probably would have been beaten to death while they laughed at you.

Have you ever heard the saying that some times Truth is stranger than Fiction.
It certainly applies to this book.

Back on Topic, how do our German freinds get along with using the Swastika, is there an Online issue because it is illegal in Germany?

flyingskid2
03-02-2004, 12:38 PM
just an observation. i see franzen replying directly to emitton, but emitton never talks directly to franzen. maybe nothing there.

Mitlov47
03-02-2004, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Holosite:
Emitton,
Maybe you live in some country where your army and police forces are allowed to kill 20 innocent bystanders to get one bad guy.(and that on a regular basis!)NYC wouldnt have to worry about being attacked by these maniacs if we didnt always rush to help our little brother in the Middle East.I'm not surprised it happened.Israel has a very effective army and intelligence service,let them fend for themselves.I'm not going off on a tangent when i read previous posts glorifying Israel and making guys who fly 109's nazis...



One more brief political tangent from me, and then I hope we can permanently move on.

I live in the USA, and I'm proud to be an American.

The very same criticisms you aim at Israel have been aimed at the USA for our war against al-Qaeda. We used airstrikes to target Taliban and al-Qaeda agents in downtown Kabul. We used a Hellfire missile fired from a Predator drone to destroy a carful of al-Qaeda members in Yemen. We are holding Taliban and al-Qaeda agents without trial.

The USA is in the EXACT SAME BOAT as Israel, like it or not. And if you think that capitulating to terrorist demands (including severing ties with our allies) will make terrorists stop their attacks, then you're naive. Terrorists are murderous scum. Simple as that. So long as Bin Laden breathes, he will find excuses to kill Americans.

Repeat after me: THIS IS A COMPUTER GAME ABOUT WWII, NOT THE MODERN DAY. THIS IS A COMPUTER GAME ABOUT WWII, NOT THE MODERN DAY. Now let's let this rest. This forum is *not* a political forum. If you've got some personal beef with BlackHawkLeader, you two settle it between the two of you on your own time with emails or something. Don't hijack my thread to have your own spat. Have you notice that besides you two, this thread is really healthy, polite, on-topic, and constructive?

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Overwhelming odds mean nothing compared to heroism and tenacity. Fly blue and white: Finnish Brewster Model 239 and Israeli BF-109.

Mitlov47
03-02-2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by flyingskid2:
just an observation. i see franzen replying directly to emitton, but emitton never talks directly to franzen. maybe nothing there.

My "Let me clarify: I am not anti-German" post was aimed primarily at Franzen. I thought that was pretty clear from reading it, as well as reading the Franzen post above it.

Hi Franzen! You can call this little Yid "wingman" anytime.

Yeah, nothing was there. What did you think was there? Since I started this thread, a lot of people are replying to me, so I try to make my responses applicable to multiple posts instead of responding to each individual post in turn. Is that so sinister?

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Overwhelming odds mean nothing compared to heroism and tenacity. Fly blue and white: Finnish Brewster Model 239 and Israeli BF-109.

flyingskid2
03-02-2004, 01:17 PM
i said "emitton never talks directly to franzen", the operative word being "directly". your "let me clarify" post did address the topic of franzen's earlier post, but not a direct reply. you didn't use franzen's name nor even a direct pronoun like "you", or "your". honestly what i thought was there was an intentional avoidance from talking to germans directly, which in my mind is certainly understandable given that you have qualms using german planes. but like i said, maybe nothing there. and you certainly have proven there was nothing there by addressing franzen directly after i made the observation. so, please accept my apologies.

XyZspineZyX
03-02-2004, 01:42 PM
EMitton....

I gotta tell ya, at the political level, it IS "just a game".

To suggest that flying a 109 or a FW or whatever in the context of this sim is in any way espousing Nazi ideals is ludicrous.

I'm African American, so the Nazis don't think much more of my ilk than yours. Had there been significant numbers of us in Germany in the '40s, we'd probably have been right there in Auschwitz with you.

But it really is irrelevant. I won't presume to tell you "not to feel an odd twinge" when you fly a plane with a swastika on it...but in time, you'll understand that it is NOT the same thing, and you'll get past it.

This is not to say that others may not look at you askance. They may not understand the idea of simulation either. In fact, there are some among us who cannot make this distinction and won't fly German (or Japanese) planes for these same fallacious reasons. Then again, I wonder why they can fly VVS planes either, when they represent the communist ideals we fought until recent days.

Long and short: all that's irrelevant. Flying a virtual airplane of any country is OK. It's about the machines and the military situations, not the politics.

Mitlov47
03-02-2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by flyingskid2:
i said "emitton never talks directly to franzen", the operative word being "directly". your "let me clarify" post did address the topic of franzen's earlier post, but not a direct reply. you didn't use franzen's name nor even a direct pronoun like "you", or "your". honestly what i thought was there was an intentional avoidance from talking to germans directly, which in my mind is certainly understandable given that you have qualms using german planes. but like i said, maybe nothing there. and you certainly have proven there was nothing there by addressing franzen directly after i made the observation. so, please accept my apologies.

Howdy, Skid! Are you German too? Nice to meet you. What city do you live in? I've never been to Germany, but my father has traveled there and he really liked it. I'd like to go sometime--I'd like to see the Black Forest and take my Suzuki on the Nurburgring, and I hear there are a bunch of amazing castles. And yes, I'd love to talk with German folks, if only I knew moreGerman than I do now. Maybe I could ask my brother or my father for help--they've both studied German for years (I took Spanish instead, because there were lots of cute girls in Spanish class).

Like I said before, I have NO problems with Germany or Germans outside of the 1938-45 period.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Overwhelming odds mean nothing compared to heroism and tenacity. Fly blue and white: Finnish Brewster Model 239 and Israeli BF-109.

Holosite
03-02-2004, 08:31 PM
Thanks for clarifying that FB is a computer game.I'll prefer My game as realistic as possible with realistic markings including stars(red ones as well as white) and swastikas and I wont feel any guilt over it.like I said in a previous post preceding yours it is just a damned game.As for My political tangent into Israel,dont shove your politics into my entertainment,some other guy started it with something about turning Israel's enemies into dust or something.Aint gonna happen without the USA backing 'em up buddy,and we have lost too many guys already...Sorry, go do it youselves and I'll just play this game...

Kampfmeister
03-02-2004, 10:21 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by huggy87:
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
You cannot compare what the nazis did to the errors of other nations. Yes, genocide, has occured all through history, but it has never been so... mechanical, efficient, sterile, and industrial as WW2 Germany. It is all the scarier because it happened so recently in our 'enlightened' history and sensible 20th century people like you and me could not stop it.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________

I have to disagree with you on this point Huggy. Yes you can compare what the Nazis did to the atrocities (not errors, since this implies a mistake which is usually done by accident) of other nations. True not in as far as the enormity and scope, as well as the ruthless efficiency it was carried out by the Nazis, but an atrocity is an atrocity nevertheless. Does it also really matter when in the history timeline it happened? Does living in a modern age mean we should know better than our ancestors? If it happened several hundred years ago, should we just accept it because people didn't know any better back then? Man throughout the ages has always known what is wrong or right, yet we never really seem to learn. Where do we draw the line?

Let's say you have three men of various ages, old, middle aged, young. The old man killed a man sixty years ago, the middle aged one killed a couple twenty years ago, and the young one killed a whole family a year ago. Clearly the young mans murder is probably the most horrifying, but each of the other men are also still guilty of a crime. Shouldn't they also still be held accountable? Of course they should. A simple analogy, but I hope you get my point.

The Germans have always been held accountable, and rightly so, for what happened during WWII. Why then are no other countries held to that same standard for the crimes they committed during this period or for that matter, other shameful periods in their history? Why are they all hiding behind German shame? Let them come out and admit their past crimes. Strange, I don't hear anything.

Let's look at the US (Not picking on the US just an example) where we live. Should the US make amends to the Philipino people for what was done to them during what we called the Philippine Insurrection 100 years ago under the policy of Benevolent Assimilation? I'd wager 99% of the population doesn't even have the slightest idea of what I am talking about because it is rarely and then only briefly mentioned in our history books. It's been quietly tucked away in the folds of our history for years. You may want to look it up, it's not pretty. If not I can give you some insight on it.

Stalinist Russia is another one. Comparable with Nazi Germany if not worse. What about the Brits and their so called concentration camps for the Boers 100 years ago? The Armenian extermination by the Turks 80 years ago. The Rhuanda genocide just a decade ago. Israeli killings of Arab POW's during the past 50 years. Hell the Vikings a thousand years ago. Butchering and terrorizing Europe for 300 years and probably cost the lives of millions in that time frame. Napoleon, rampaged through Europe for two decades costing the lives of millions. Yet I hear no apology from the French. In fact they worship him like a god. The Swedes, French, and other combatants rampaging through Germany during the 30 years war and killing off one quarter of the population in the process. These are just a few examples I can come up with off the top of my head. I can go on and on and on, from most recently, through the last century, or further back, from most every major country.

So again the question is, where do you draw the line? How far back do you go? How terrible does it have to be? Where are the rest of the guilty parties, and what are they hiding? The Germans are doing their part, lets see the rest of the world do its.

Sorry. Just some of my late night thoughts and ramblings. Just something for people to think about. Time for bed. Best regards Huggy.

Franzen
03-02-2004, 10:34 PM
Well put Kampfmeister, people do seem to think that people living in modern times are much better than the previous people. We've thought this way for 1000's of years. A couple thousand years of civilization does not change hundreds of thousands of years of human nature evolutuion.

Fritz

huggy87
03-02-2004, 11:06 PM
Kampfmeister,
I can see your point that Germany is unfairly picked on compared to the atrocities commited by other nations. Indeed, in 200 years, historians will probably not think much of the holocaust. It will probably be just a side-note of WW2 and viewed as just another flare up of anti-semitism in the big scheme of history.

However, viewed through todays lense, you seem to miss my point of why the holocaust has had such an impact on our psyche for the last 60 years. All of those examples you cited (and yes I am familiar with what happened in the phillipines) are of horrible occurences. But it is different looking at the Germans. They are so much like us. To paraphrase your earlier post, it is like we are looking in a mirror. So you have to wonder how people so like us (more americans have german blood than any other group) could have fallen to such evil depths. The shock is further compounded by the fact that the holocaust was the first time the 'industrial age' met humanity's brutal genocidal side. Name one other instance where a whole population was railroaded away to death factories.

You bring up Stalin's regime, which was just as brutal if not as efficient as the German's program. Why aren't they as villified as the Germans? This goes back to Germany being picked on. Perhaps they are. But the victors write the history. I guarantee if Germany had won the war, there would not be any open remorse in Germany today. People would probably not even dare to ask 'what happened to all of the jews?' for fear of reprisal.

You and franzen comment on why should humanity be any more civilized today than 200 years ago. I disagree with you. I think we should be more civilized today. We have 'All quiet on the Wester Front', 'Platoon', Student exchange programs, the most educated populace ever, Mass Media to bring the horror of war to our living rooms, and open forums like this where people can talk rather than fight. Education, reason, and tolerance can overcome bigotry, jingoism, and hatred.

Cold_Gambler
03-02-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by Franzen:
Matuda, I'm confused. If a zombie used to be a live human, therefor he must be dead when you encounter one. Since he's dead and you are killing them, does that mean you are bringing them back to life? :blink: I can see the ethical problems with that. :veryhappy:

Save the zombies! Kill'em all! :veryhappy:

Fritz

Best. Post. Of. The. Thread.

seriously though, my faith in humanity (and this community) has been renewed.

BlackHawkLeader and Holosite- get a room! You two are clearly in love with each other... and don't forget to take your dust with you.

To the original poster- good thread but I can't believe that I just read 8 pages of the same 6 opinions written by 200 people-

If none of this makes sense or is on topic... I blame it on emoticaon withdrawal &lt;insert smiley face here&gt;

Gianordolli
03-03-2004, 12:14 AM
Emitton, dont worry, its just a game and if you think well, hitler was 25% jewish and almost all germans have some jewish heritage in their family, i had a german girlfriend and her great grandmother was a jewish woman.

just take in the sport side, in EA Fifa 2004, i play all the time with Brazil in spite of they maked me cry in 1994 world cup final. why i play with them? its because the best team...so get in your best aircraft and play fair buddy.

DjTeD
03-03-2004, 03:45 AM
I fly the planes I like... and do not mind about their nationalities...

I am Swiss... in Switzerland, we had side to side some Me 109 and Morane (for example, but the Morane is not flyable...). I like the 109. Does it mean I am a nazi ??? I do not think so...

It is just a game, nothing more... and in real life, Germans were not all nazis... after all, the first to go in nazi concentration camp were not Jewish people, but political opponents... socialists, syndicalists, communists were the first to go in camps...

DJ TeD aka Gaston

Avoir la foi, c'est ªtre plus sr d'une chose que la raison ne le permet.

BlackHawkLeader
03-03-2004, 03:47 AM
Hmmm I could sense Cold_Gambler was having a bit of a Dummy Spit there, perhaps one of the first to start showing cracks at the seams, eh! he! he!
Ahh yes Human Nature! It wont change, like a leopard does not change its spots.

I have seen some posters here have wondered about weather man kind has learned any lessons from War.
He has! the worst possible one, and that is how to fight controlled wars to destroy your enemy, and not destroy the planet along the way.
IRAQ was the most recent, it wont be the last.

God help us all.

Franzen
03-03-2004, 07:15 AM
Hmm, I see your point BlackHawkLeader. We have learnt more efficient ways to kill more people at one time. Ironic eh. You ended by saying" God help us all". No way, he won't come here, too dangerous. Maybe that's why they say God is all knowing. :)

Fritz

Franzen
03-03-2004, 07:26 AM
BTW, EMitton, why don't you just fly the German planes with the "void" skin? Just an idea. Something else to think about was the intention of the designer, to shoot other planes and defnd against other planes. I can link the LW, only in certain years, to the Nazi party but I can't link them directly to the Jews. I hope you guyz understand my meaning. Key word "directly".

Fritz

Jirozaemon
03-03-2004, 10:42 AM
As something has been said about atrocities in other countries and ages. I would like to add the following thoughts.

There is a quote from Jan-Philipp Reemtsma, chairman for the "Wehrmachtsausstellung" (Exposition dealing with the warcrimes of the Wehrmacht between 1939-1945) in Hamburg, who said that "Honor and guilt are always individual". What I would like to point out in this context is that the whole discussion cricles around the responsebilities of states and nations, but not of those of the individual person. The question is: do we define ourselfes by nation or by character, education, personal experience, religion ect. ? What does the slogan "I`m American, I`m German, I`m Israeli..." really mean ? Perhaps this has been "overmodelled" in the current discussion.

For myself (I´m German) I have to say that you cannot relate atrocities to each other. As it was said the industrial scale and the cruels of the Holocaust have no equal in history. And for the Germans it is their individual responsibility to know and to remember what has been done. At least this is my opinion.

Regards

Jiro

[This message was edited by Jirozaemon on Wed March 03 2004 at 09:54 AM.]

[This message was edited by Jirozaemon on Wed March 03 2004 at 09:57 AM.]

Cossack_UA
03-03-2004, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by Kampfmeister:

Let's look at the US (Not picking on the US just an example) where we live. Should the US make amends to the Philipino people for what was done to them during what we called the Philippine Insurrection 100 years ago under the policy of Benevolent Assimilation? I'd wager 99% of the population doesn't even have the slightest idea of what I am talking about because it is rarely and then only briefly mentioned in our history books. .

I was flipping thru a book by James Bradley "Flyboys" in a book store an on one page there was illustration of a propaganda flyer depicting an American firing squad preparing to execute phillipino boys. The slogan on a flyer said: "Kill everyone over 12".
I have never heard about this point in American history and it shocked me.

But no matter how shocking other such insidents in human history are, they cannot compare with the scale it has been done during WWII that's for sure.

bashii
03-03-2004, 11:45 AM
I refuse to fly any aircraft. My sole purpose for being here is to take these machines of death and quickly hurl them downward, smashing them in thousands of virtual flaming shards. Unfortunately, despite my best efforts to hold tight reign of my principled crusade, my flying has improved and I haven't been able to maintain the efficiency I once had. And so now my righteous anger has found renewed vigor in intercepting the bullets and cannon rounds that try to evade my vengeance, thereby denying those slugs of Satan the free-flight they desire.

buz13
03-03-2004, 12:00 PM
"There are no nations in eternity" They do what is in their best short term interests....like most people. Every nation has its good, bad and ugly....some nations of course have more ugly than others.....have you ever been to...oh never mind.

tttiger
03-03-2004, 12:42 PM
QUOTE:

" posted 03-03-04 06:26
BTW, EMitton, why don't you just fly the German planes with the "void" skin? Just an idea. Something else to think about was the intention of the designer, to shoot other planes and defnd against other planes. I can link the LW, only in certain years, to the Nazi party but I can't link them directly to the Jews. I hope you guyz understand my meaning. Key word "directly".

Fritz"

_______________

I thought this thread had pretty well exhausted the subject with many thoughtful (and a few harebrained) posts. But a comment this naive (or ignorant, take your pick) requires response.

Franzen, you want a direct connection between the LW and the German Jews, okay, who do you think built those LW planes?

Mostly, it was slave labor from the concentration camps. And when the workers became too weak or sick to work, they were taken to the gas chambers. A waiting dose of Cyklon B probably was a pretty good motivator.

What do you think Mr. Schindler was doing when he saved all those people? He was running factories making war materials with slave labor.

Your heroes Mr. Rall and Mr. Stigler were flying planes built by the victims of Nazi atrocities.

And Mr. Messerschmidt found himself in considerable legal difficulty (as in prison, I believe) as a result, when the war ended. Maybe Willy should have saved some of them, then Spielberg would have made about him instead :D.

There's your connection.

To suggest flying LW planes with void skins somehow washes away the manner in which those planes were built is truly absurd.

(Which isn't to say I haven't flown "captured" Nazi planes off line to see how they perform. Most actually are pretty awesome, particularly in firepower compared to Allied planes. I have no idea why the LW pilots in this sim bellyache about them so much :))

Aloha,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

[This message was edited by tttiger on Wed March 03 2004 at 11:51 AM.]

XyZspineZyX
03-03-2004, 12:59 PM
tttiger wrote:


To suggest flying LW planes with void skins somehow washes away the manner in which those planes were built is truly absurd.


That's not what we're suggesting. At least not me. I'm suggesting that all that is irrelevant to modeling the planes and their technology and employment in historical and semi-historical campaigns.

That's what this game is about. It has nothing to do with subscribing to ANY ideology whatsoever.

Huxley_S
03-03-2004, 01:22 PM
I don't see any problem with it at all... nazi insignia, the lot.

All you have to do is remember that all war is wrong. Sometimes you can be forced into war but it should always be the last resort.

Germans are not bad people nor are Russians. It just so happens that they hapopen to have had extremely nasty leaders in their past. When your leaders take you into war you don't have a choice but to be a patriot and serve your country right or wrong. Vietnam and Iraq anyone?

I feel sorry for the soldiers that had to follow Hitler or Stalin. There must have been a real conflict of patriotism and duty with a sense that the war aims were unjustified, never mind some of the methods used.

I saw a documentory a while back about a German airman who spoke about being shown a film of the concentration camps being liberated by the British whilst he was being held as a PoW. He and his comrades broke down and wept when they saw how they had been fooled.

Naturally there are always going to be nationalists who relish the kind of ethnic purges that the Nazis advocated. It happens everywhere - recently in Yugoslavia but let's not forget that the American Civil War was all about the enslavement of black people. Half the country fought viciously so they could hang on to the right to keep slaves. No culture has clean hands in this respect. The Dutch in the Spice Islands, the Belgians in the Congo, the Japanese in China, the British in Tazmania and er... just about everywhere else.... :)

Nontheless, in any culture there are also good people who "did their duty". You can play the Luftwaffe without guilt if you remember that.

tttiger
03-03-2004, 01:56 PM
LOL, Stig, as often happens we agree. At least on your last point. Ultimately, what's important is that the models are as accurate as possible.

But you miss my point.

Franzen suggests that (somehow) by flying LW planes without markings it somehow becomes historically more acceptable because there is no link between the LW and the Holocaust.

Who cares what the markings were? The LW pilots flew planes built by slave labor under threat of execution. And that is historically true with or without those markings. And if those slave laborers were close relatives of yours, I doubt you would fly a plane they were forced to build, even in a cartoon game 60 years later.

I have NEVER said, including to guys I consider friends and with whom I fly on line every weekend: You are wrong for wanting to fly a LW plane.

I have ALWAYS said, I personally will never fly a LW plane because I honor my family and what the Nazis did to them. But that rule APPLIES ONLY TO ME. I don't ask or expect it of anyone else.

Look, Stig....if if someone (for whatever bizarre reason) made a Ku Klux Klan sim in which the KKK went around hanging black people, would you as an Afro-American ever wear a white sheet, burn a cross or lynch a black man? I seriously doubt it.

That's where I'm at on this issue. And it applies only to myself.

Frankly, Stig, I wish you'd fly Allied once in awhile so I could wing with ya! :)

Aloha,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

Huxley_S
03-03-2004, 02:37 PM
"Look, Stig....if if someone (for whatever bizarre reason) made a Ku Klux Klan sim in which the KKK went around hanging black people, would you as an Afro-American ever wear a white sheet, burn a cross or lynch a black man? I seriously doubt it."

That isn't a good analogy. The KKK are just a bunch of racist white-trash ultra-nationalists who never contributed _anything at all_ to the world. Nothing, apart from their filth. Nada.

It isn't as black and white with Nazi-era Germany. Just look at those planes! Built by slave labour no doubt, but conceived and designed by some of the greatest engineers of all time. That is the bitter duality of it. You can't brand an entire nation as thugs just because of their leadership that maybe half the people or less voted for (if at all).

Hmmm... sounds familiar!

Piaggio108
03-03-2004, 05:18 PM
I have felt bad about playing my other games as well, wether or not I am playing as the germans.

Kampfmeister
03-03-2004, 09:17 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by huggy87:

__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
However, viewed through todays lense, you seem to miss my point of why the holocaust has had such an impact on our psyche for the last 60 years. All of those examples you cited (and yes I am familiar with what happened in the phillipines) are of horrible occurences. But it is different looking at the Germans. They are so much like us. To paraphrase your earlier post, it is like we are looking in a mirror. So you have to wonder how people so like us (more americans have german blood than any other group) could have fallen to such evil depths. The shock is further compounded by the fact that the holocaust was the first time the 'industrial age' met humanity's brutal genocidal side. Name one other instance where a whole population was railroaded away to death factories.

You and franzen comment on why should humanity be any more civilized today than 200 years ago. I disagree with you. I think we should be more civilized today. We have 'All quiet on the Wester Front', 'Platoon', Student exchange programs, the most educated populace ever, Mass Media to bring the horror of war to our living rooms, and open forums like this where people can talk rather than fight. Education, reason, and tolerance can overcome bigotry, jingoism, and hatred.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________

Just few more comments Huggy. First let me say that I am surprised that you knew about the Philippine Insurrection. It is a very obscure and little known footnote in American history. I'm impressed, as I always am with the knowledge that people portray in this forum. I can't name another instance where a whole population was railroaded into death factories. The holocaust was the most ruthlessly efficient extermination program ever devised by man to date. Hopefully there will never be another one or one that is even worse. Only the Soviets so far have come close to matching it in brutality. However genocide does not have a specific face or a particular method in which it is carried out. The first true genocide of the 20th century was carried out by the Ottoman Turks when during WWI they systematically exterminated up to 1.5 million Armenians. While others have followed the holocaust such as the Cambodian killing fields, the Rwandan Tutsi and Hutu killings resulting in 3 million dead, or the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia.

I understand what you are saying in that we think of ourselves as being so modern, civilized, and educated, and yet still capable of performing such despicable acts of terror. But in every age and time frame of history people thought of themselves as being more modern and educated than their ancestors. Yes we should be more civilized and educated today than in the past. We have the means to educate the populace on the horrors of the past. Yet even with all this advantage it still happens today. As of yet not on the scale of the holocaust, but who knows what the future may bring. I have to admit that I am not too optimistic on the future of mankind or our ability to learn from our past.

Unless somebody says something that really ticks me off, I think I'll just leave it at that. I think enough has been said on the subject. It has been enjoyable debating with you Huggy in a calm and civilized manner. Cheers.

Kampfmeister
03-03-2004, 09:50 PM
Emitton seems to have found his niche. He will continue to fly the 109, but with Finnish or Israeli markings. Thus appeasing his guilty conscience.

Well many of us will still continue to fly LW planes because we enjoy the aircraft. Some like Tiger will refuse because of ethical questions and personal beliefs. While others will ride the fence, flying LW planes but with a guilty conscience. I personally have no reservations and will continue to fly both LW and Allied planes. Either way we are all doing what we want to do, and not one of us should criticize anyone else for the choices they have made. In the long run it is still just a game. It is not real. If you still can't get past this fact, then perhaps you have issues, and you should play something else like the Simpson's Hit and Run. Cheers.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________

Hey Tiger, where do you live on Kauai. It's my favorite of the Hawaiian Islands. I haven't been there in 5 years. The wife and I wanted to go back this year, but it wasn't financially feasible. Next time I get a chance I'd like to go rent a house on Anini (spelling?) Beach and just kick back for a week. Any ideas?

sfbaytf
03-03-2004, 10:52 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Israeli blitzkrieg victory in 1967 and armored tactics in 1973 owed something to the German blitzkrieg tactics in WW2?

AFJ_Locust
03-03-2004, 11:13 PM
how I cope with that is just donot fly german ac with swasticas painted on them anywhere...

altho im not Jewish I refuse to honor there symbols in any way shape or form because so many young men/women died fighting that evil.

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

Mitlov47
03-03-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by sfbaytf:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Israeli blitzkrieg victory in 1967 and armored tactics in 1973 owed something to the German blitzkrieg tactics in WW2?

I don't believe so. Yes, both were high-speed attacks, but the similarity ends there. First off, the situations were very different: Poland and France did not have all their military units parked right at Germany's border like Egypt and friends were. Germany was trying to cover wide sweeps of territory quickly; Israel was trying to hit military units before they could finish mobilizing. This is not just a political difference, but a military difference. Israel had to break through a solid line of troops and then they were in the clear; Germany had to hunt and crush widely-spread units.

Second, the most famous characteristic of Israeli tactics in 1967--hitting Arab aircraft before they could scramble--was part of the Blitzkrieg, but was not the defining characteristic. The Egyptian Air Force was essentially wiped out in the first 8 hours of conflict, the vast majority of planes destroyed as they were parked. Once again, a radical difference from the Blitzkreig.

Third, the topography was different. The 1967 War was on a relatively tiny piece of land compared to Germany's blitzkreig. Everybody's army was within airstrike distance of everybody else's (oftentimes just a few minute's flight away). The Blitzkreig was dramatically different, covering hundreds (thousands?) of miles. This difference in scale contributes to the first two differences.

The 1973 war owed nothing to German tactics in WWII. Israel gave ground and dug in for a couple weeks after Sadat's surprise attack on a High Holy Day caught them off-guard, and then Israel launched a slow, bloody, but successful counter-attack. Nothing whatsoever in common with the Blitzkreig. I'd almost rather compare it to the Battle of the Bulge.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Overwhelming odds mean nothing compared to heroism and tenacity. Fly blue and white: Finnish Brewster Model 239 and Israeli BF-109.

Gianordolli
03-03-2004, 11:34 PM
Emitton, 61 years passed and the nazis bother you yet? its past, long gone, german planes didnt killed jewish people. its funny because the man was AUSTRIAN and you didnt even mentioned that.-i dont have nothing against Austria for god's sake-

I could hate the jews because they choosen one thief to be free and choosen Jesus to be crucfied, not me but the entire mankind, but it was 2000 years ago, thousands and thousands of generations passed on this earth.

put Israeli repaint in the plane that you play and forget this bullhit

Franzen
03-04-2004, 01:44 AM
TTTiger, I think you should go back and read my posting more carefully. I would also like to suggest that before you write a post you should analyse what has been said and try to keep emotions out of this, just as I am attempting to do with your post. And please don't try to reinterperate what I've said for your own ideals.

As for the building of some of the LW planes, it was prisoners/slaves from camps used, not just Jews. Unfortunately, most Jews were not given the better jobs. Most of the prisoners involved in weapons manufacturing were chosen for being previously industrial skilled. It had nothing to do with ethniticity.

As for my hereos, don't assume. Being a good pilot does not make someone my hero. Opa(my grandfather) is my #1 hero.#2, my father. I have a few more, Peter the Great, Dr.Feng Shan Ho, Beowulf, Dr.Bethune,.....and the list goes on. To become my hero you must sacrifice a lot of yourself for the good of many.

BTW, many German's found themselves facing legal difficulties after the war. Dr. Messerschmitt, Leni Riefenstahl, and Oscar Schindler were just a drop in the bucket. Facing legal difficulties after a war doesn't mean you are guilty or innocent, especially if your nation is not the victors.

"To suggest flying LW planes with void skins somehow washes away the manner in which those planes were built is truly absurd."
Who suggested that? I know I didn't. Please reread my post.

"Franzen suggests that (somehow) by flying LW planes without markings it somehow becomes historically more acceptable because there is no link between the LW and the Holocaust."
Once again, I did not suggest this. My true suggestion was no different than other suggestion to fly with the Israeli colors, just looking for a way to help EMitton feel better. Please reread my post.

Also, if you think the link is that direct, remember, key word(direct), then you must have problems getting into a VW, Benz, BMW, or taking an Aspirin when you have a headache, or using any of the products produced by German companies that were invovled in the war. All the guilty companies are still around today and you use, in one form or another, their products everyday. The planes were designed mostly by Germans and many were built by slaves, slaves from all over Europe. The design of the LW planes was no different than the American companies disigning the plane of the American Airforce today. Another key word for you(intention). Please reread my post more carefully and do not make such silly assumptions.

I have read many of your posts in the past, some good, some ignorant, you take your pick.

Fritz

Bluedog72
03-04-2004, 08:11 AM
I think it is a personal thing, if it bothers you, dont fly 'em. If you really do rabidly hate one of the ideals symbolised by national markings in a game, make that side your enemy and hunt them down and destroy them, should give you a sense of accomplishment , maybe even a feeling of revenge. (if your hatred is based on past misdeeds)

Untill humankind figures out that we arent Americans, Germans, Jews, Brits, Danes, Africans, Australians, Canadians, Blacks, Whites,Hispanics, Asians, Slavs etc etc etc, that we are infact men, period, we will continue to have these kind of discussions, and, I'm afraid, wars based on our belief that our way of life is better than the next bloke's.
IMHO, the only thing that can bring an end to it is an extra terrestrial threat that would take the world united to stop.

No-one chose where, or to whom they were born, so how can we rightfully say that the guy who was borne over the other side of that line on the map is any differant, better or worse than us? That's right, we cant, it is stupid.



And now for a probably very stupid question.......what is a "Jew"?( forgive my ignorance, I live in a country where no one gives a flying crap what religion you are) Is it a religion or a race? Are there genetrics involved? or merely beliefs? Seems to me (from what I've seen on TV) Israel is made up of a whole bunch of differant looking people, some black, some white, some brown, some green probably. Are all Israelies Jews?Certainly all Jews arent Israelies?

Sorry, bit off topic, but I wouldnt mind having it explained to me in moron proof terms that I can understand :)

Cheers, Blue

bashii
03-04-2004, 08:18 AM
Ever notice how twitchy some folks get as soon as one principled man stands up and says *no!*? Had more, um, *dutiful patriots* exhibited similar backbone maybe this conversation wouldn't be taking place.

Huxley_S
03-04-2004, 08:43 AM
"Had more, um, *dutiful patriots* exhibited similar backbone maybe this conversation wouldn't be taking place."

Are you saying that the Luftwaffe should have deserted or something like that?

Don't forget that it was Army commanders including Count von Stauffenberg, Rommel, General Ludwig Beck etc that plotted to assassinate Hitler.

It is not a simple matter to betray the leadership of your country as member of the armed forces, but especially so if that country is run by the Nazis.

As a result of their plot, not only were they all executed - some by hanging on meathooks in agony, some by firing squad and some by poison - but also their family members were also murdered or sent to concentration camps as well.

Would you have had their "backbone" if you were in their position?

Franzen
03-04-2004, 09:23 AM
Hi Bluedog72,
Don't ever feel bad about asking questions. questions are the enemy of ignorance. The problem is that ignorance, in today's world, is more powerful than questions, but that's no reason to give up. No question is stupid or moronic.

Fritz

Franzen
03-04-2004, 09:31 AM
Huxley_S, my family would come first, not a nation, idealogy, or religion. All could burn in hell before I'd sacrifice my family.

Fritz

goatman455
03-04-2004, 09:55 AM
I think the big thing here is ITS A DAMN GAME!

Mitlov47
03-04-2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Bluedog72:
And now for a probably very stupid question.......what is a "Jew"?( forgive my ignorance, I live in a country where no one gives a flying crap what religion you are) Is it a religion or a race? Are there genetrics involved? or merely beliefs? Seems to me (from what I've seen on TV) Israel is made up of a whole bunch of differant looking people, some black, some white, some brown, some green probably. Are all Israelies Jews?Certainly all Jews arent Israelies?

Sorry, bit off topic, but I wouldnt mind having it explained to me in moron proof terms that I can understand :)

Cheers, Blue

If you don't understand something, it is much better to ask than to stay in the dark. This is a very common question.

"Judaism" is a term that refers both to a religion and an ethnicity. Not all religious Jews are ethnic Jews, and vice versa. Religions are defined by your spiritual beliefs; ethnicities are defined by your parents (so it is somewhat genetic, just like being ethnically Irish is) and the traditions you inherited. For example:

Religiously, I am reform Jewish. That is a BELIEF. I believe in the dogma of reform Judaism. Anyone can convert to the religion of Judaism.

Ethnically, I am half Russian Jewish (mother's side), half Scottish-Irish mix (father's side). Ethnicity is INHERITED from your parents.

Nationality-wise, I am an American through and through. I am not an Israeli citizen, just like I am not a citizen of Russia or Ireland. Not all Jews are citizens of Israel. Roughly 6 million of the 15-20 million Jews on the planet are Israeli citizens; 6-8 million are American citizens; the rest are dispersed in other countries.

You are correct, not all Israelis look like the stereotype of Jews. First off, 20% of Israeli citizens are not Jews. 15% are Arab Muslims; 5% are Arab Christians. Second, the 80% that are "Jewish" are very diverse. There are Sephardic Jews, whose lineage comes from North Africa and the Middle East; there are Ashkenazic Jews, whose lineage comes from Europe, and there are Ethiopian Jews, whose lineage comes from (surprise) Ethiopia. That's why some Israelis look Middle Eastern, some look European, some look African, and many look somewhere in between.

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Overwhelming odds mean nothing compared to heroism and tenacity. Fly blue and white: Finnish Brewster Model 239 and Israeli BF-109.

Oak_Groove
03-04-2004, 03:07 PM
The game is not about politics or ethnicity, it´s all about aerial warfare and respecitve flying machines.

XP2500 OC'ed 11x200
768MB TWINMOS DDR 400 3-3-2.5-11
A7N8X-D Rev. 2.0/Bios 1.7
SAPPHIRE R9700 Atlantis
2 x IBM IC35040 40GB
Syncmaster 957P
Win XP Pro SP1
DirectX 9.0b
nForce UDP 2.45 w/3.75 Audio
Catalyst 3.7

Bluedog72
03-04-2004, 05:50 PM
Thank you Emitton, I think I understand a little better now.

Cheers, Blue

Mitlov47
03-04-2004, 09:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bluedog72:
Thank you Emitton, I think I understand a little better now.

Cheers, Blue<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure thing. If you have any more questions or would like clarification of any other issues, don't hesitate to email me and I can try to respond at greater length. My email is emitton@law.uoregon.edu .

---------------------------

"I hear the roar of a big machine; Two worlds and in between.
Love lost, fire at will; Dum-dum bullets and shoot to kill.
I hear dive bombers and Empire down, Empire down..."
--Sisters of Mercy

Overwhelming odds mean nothing compared to heroism and tenacity. Fly blue and white: Finnish Brewster Model 239 and Israeli BF-109.