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Snyde-Dastardly
04-01-2004, 01:01 AM
Really who will be the first to load there Zeros up with bombs and try to blow the allied carriers out of the water on line??? You cant tell me it wont happen!!Imean whos to stop a whole lot of guys who will do nothing but slam into the side of allied ships just for the "youve gotta be kidding me " aspect of it???I guess its not a bad thing its just something you better be ready for!
S!

From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/Green_Hell.bmp

Snyde-Dastardly
04-01-2004, 01:01 AM
Really who will be the first to load there Zeros up with bombs and try to blow the allied carriers out of the water on line??? You cant tell me it wont happen!!Imean whos to stop a whole lot of guys who will do nothing but slam into the side of allied ships just for the "youve gotta be kidding me " aspect of it???I guess its not a bad thing its just something you better be ready for!
S!

From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/Green_Hell.bmp

luthier1
04-01-2004, 01:15 AM
You'd better watch out for those carrier gunners http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif To be honest with you until I started on the Pacific I've had no idea of just how many guns were installed on those things. You'd need to coordinate your attacks pretty well, and hope the carrier doesn't have any destroyers or cruisers screening it, and its fighter escorts are busy elsewhere.

Not to mention the fact that it's not as easy to hit a carrier as you might think. Just set up 50 small caliber and 20 large caliber flak guns around a concrete airfield in FB and try to ram the strip http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

RedDeth
04-01-2004, 01:20 AM
yes its not easy to ram a carrier kamikaze. 9 out of 10 kamikazies were shot down before hitting their target. and thats for all american ships. to attack a carrier the odds of success were much much much worse.

they were the best defended ship in the fleet by far and away. almost impossible. we had close to 100 carriers at the end of ww2. and im trying to remember how many were sunk by kamikazi. i think none or maybe one was sunk that way???

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of 12 time Champions AFJ http://www.alloutwar.com/IL2FS/round9.cfm http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
04-01-2004, 01:22 AM
Ship AA fps hits will take out any kamikaze simmer/simmerette. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Snyde-Dastardly
04-01-2004, 06:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Ship AA fps hits will take out any kamikaze simmer/simmerette. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gifLOL thats SO true LOL

From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/Green_Hell.bmp

Lt.Davis
04-01-2004, 07:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
yes its not easy to ram a carrier kamikaze. 9 out of 10 kamikazies were shot down before hitting their target. and thats for all american ships. to attack a carrier the odds of success were much much much worse.

they were the best defended ship in the fleet by far and away. almost impossible. we had close to 100 carriers at the end of ww2. and im trying to remember how many were sunk by kamikazi. i think none or maybe one was sunk that way???

http://www.fighterjocks.net home of 12 time Champions AFJ http://www.alloutwar.com/IL2FS/round9.cfm http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As i know kamikaze pilot will not choose carrier as their target, they will most chose ships like transport, assult ship, transport ship and gun ship.

"Biar berputih tulang, jangan berputih mata"
Translated:
"Let the whites of your bones, but do not show the whites of your eyes"

heywooood
04-04-2004, 10:49 PM
I think the challenge is what will drive people to try it... I mean if its easy.. no one will do it but if "It can't be done" ??

thats just a double dog dare isnt it.

RAAF_Furball
04-05-2004, 12:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snyde-Dastardly:
Really who will be the first to load there Zeros up with bombs and try to blow the allied carriers out of the water on line??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm really looking forward to the opportunity to defend our carriers.

_RAAF_Furball, CO

click below for _RAAF_ website

http://members.optusnet.com.au/raafgames/crest.jpg (http://www.raafsquad.cjb.net)

click below for Fur's website

http://members.optusnet.com.au/nfurball/Images/plane_md_wht.gif (http://www.fur.cjb.net)

Snyde-Dastardly
04-05-2004, 02:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAAF_Furball:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snyde-Dastardly:
Really who will be the first to load there Zeros up with bombs and try to blow the allied carriers out of the water on line??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm really looking forward to the opportunity to defend our carriers.
Yes me as well,but let me ask you this.
Who is also gonna be the crazy S.O.B whos gos in after em with all that AAA? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
Theres a good chance your own ships will wax ya when your on their 6

_RAAF_Furball, CO

click below for _RAAF_ website

http://www.raafsquad.cjb.net

click below for Fur's website

http://www.fur.cjb.net<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/GRDN.bmp

Snyde-Dastardly
04-05-2004, 02:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAAF_Furball:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snyde-Dastardly:
Really who will be the first to load there Zeros up with bombs and try to blow the allied carriers out of the water on line??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm really looking forward to the opportunity to defend our carriers.
Yes me as well,but let me ask you this.
Who is also gonna be the crazy S.O.B whos gos in after em with all that AAA? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
Theres a good chance your own ships will wax ya when your on their 6

_RAAF_Furball, CO

click below for _RAAF_ website

http://www.raafsquad.cjb.net

click below for Fur's website

http://www.fur.cjb.net<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/GRDN.bmp [/QUOTE]

From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/GRDN.bmp

Snyde-Dastardly
04-05-2004, 02:56 PM
OOPS http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/GRDN.bmp

Giganoni
04-05-2004, 03:35 PM
In the early war their weren't too many Aa guns on ships, like destroyers. Later on destroyers, at least Japanese ones would have 50-60 aa guns. Also Kamikazes took a good toll on Americas Navy. As far as them hurting carriers? Well, USS Enterprise was damaged beyond service by Kamikaze. The Saratoga as well. Plenty of CVEs were taken out by Kamikaze, including the St. Lo and Sangamon. Most of America's carriers were the little CVEs.

Also, interestingly British flattops had much better armored decks so Kamikaze were not very effective compared to the lightly armored American carriers.

Jieitai_Tsunami
04-05-2004, 05:32 PM
And remember the US carriers had wooden decks so the Japanese just had to crash in to them and they would need to be repaired that would take time.

Aztek_Eagle
04-05-2004, 06:38 PM
no ship will have enough guns to stop my deadly suicide run into hell, and u are coming wiht me

RxMan
04-05-2004, 07:10 PM
I did a Kamikaze mission a couple of months ago. I finally got the AI to crash into the ships, they would usually drop their ordinance load before getting there, but some had torpedos and those would hit the ship anyway. The planes would hit the ships knid-of high, and I could never determine for sure if the planes themselves did damage to the ships, but they would sink, some of them anyway. I had also put a few train fuel-tank cars in the ship, for nice smoke effect and extra damage.

heywooood
04-05-2004, 07:12 PM
Yes !!! Banzai! Banzai ! Banzai!!!

SkyChimp
04-05-2004, 07:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luthier1:
You'd better watch out for those carrier gunners http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif To be honest with you until I started on the Pacific I've had no idea of just how many guns were installed on those things. You'd need to coordinate your attacks pretty well, and hope the carrier doesn't have any destroyers or cruisers screening it, and its fighter escorts are busy elsewhere.

Not to mention the fact that it's not as easy to hit a carrier as you might think. Just set up 50 small caliber and 20 large caliber flak guns around a concrete airfield in FB and try to ram the strip http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Like I stated earlier, if you thought people whined about ships in FB, wait until they fly over an American or Japanese ship that had REAL anti-aircraft capabilities.

US and Japanese carriers were lined with AA guns. Add a destroyer, cruiser or battleship, and you'll be dodging dozens of 5 inch, 40mm, 20mm and .50.

If you thought Russian or German ships had a lot of AAA, then reflect on the fact that they were considered very weak in this regard when compared to American or Japanese ships.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/wildsig.jpg

Snyde-Dastardly
04-05-2004, 08:05 PM
Like I said there SkyChimp,Whos gonna go in after em if they make it past ya?? Any takers?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif Hell Ill try it once,,,,one http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/GRDN.bmp

Snyde-Dastardly
04-05-2004, 08:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aztek_Eagle:
no ship will have enough guns to stop my deadly suicide run into hell, and u are coming wiht me<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif LOL

From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/GRDN.bmp

luthier1
04-05-2004, 08:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Like I stated earlier, if you thought people whined about ships in FB, wait until they fly over an American or Japanese ship that had REAL anti-aircraft capabilities.

US and Japanese carriers were lined with AA guns. Add a destroyer, cruiser or battleship, and you'll be dodging dozens of 5 inch, 40mm, 20mm and .50.

If you thought Russian or German ships had a lot of AAA, then reflect on the fact that they were considered very weak in this regard when compared to American or Japanese ships.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Don't I know it. I'm programming all those guns - at least the 3d modelers got it easy, copy and paste, copy and paste, copy and paste. And I got to write them all out - 50cal_01, 50cal_02, 50cal_20 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif, 50cal_50 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif, 40mm_20; 40mmquad_15, gun_heavy_10, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif whew...

I'll try to emphasize the carrier defensive armament in some of the next development updates, just so you guys begin to prepare yourself for the sheer horror that awaits you.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

mllaneza
04-05-2004, 08:52 PM
Radar-guided 5"/38 with proximity fuses.

It's gonna be ugly people. Start getting over it now.

Veteran - Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force. 1993-1951.

LEXX_Luthor
04-05-2004, 09:05 PM
Also, the trick is to go in with *alot* of help--either offwhine AI help or onwhine internet dogfighter help (http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). The age of the One Ace Air Force from the FB will hopefully die a needed death.


Luthier:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'll try to emphasize the carrier defensive armament in some of the next development updates<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks, we want to hear it.

RedDeth
04-05-2004, 09:11 PM
i already know it will be nearly impossible to get a kamikazi hit on a carrier. i plan on keeping at least a mile between me and any enemy carrier.

itll be completely impossible to strafe enemy bases if they are carriers. any potential scumbag vulchers will die very far away.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of 12 time Champions AFJ http://www.alloutwar.com/IL2FS/round9.cfm http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

heywooood
04-05-2004, 09:34 PM
Yes -please Luthier - make it as realistic as possible.

And I will prepare the ceremonial headband.
And write a letter to my parents
and say a prayer for my beloved Emporor
and drink the ceremonial saki
(And grab a couple of Geisha's)
And pay a visit to your carriers...
Banzai - Banzai! Banzai!!

04-05-2004, 09:34 PM
Unless your trying to land on your Carrier while the Enemy is conducting a Co ordinated attack.
Then you might have a problem! he! he! he!

Remember the Hiryu was the only Jap Carrier that got to launch an Air strike against the American Carriers at Midway, and she nailed the Carrier Yorktown as a result.

With out trying to sound Pro American, the United States Naval Victory at Midway, was the most significant Naval Victory in Military History out side of Nelsons Victory at Trafalgor!

They where Out numbered and Out gunned, In Aircraft carriers, Aircraft, Battle Ships Cruisers and Destroyers.

The fact that they had broken the Japanese communication codes, meant the Americans could position their out numbered Carrier force and wait for the Japanese Carrier force to commit their Carrier flight decks to attacking Midway Island.

It worked beutifully, the Pacific Tide turned as a result.

Cheers

luthier1
04-05-2004, 09:36 PM
Might be a good idea to fly alongside a carrier in a bomber at top speed to give them the highest deflection shot, and have the turret gunners fire at the rows of gunners to soften defenses.

Certainly not a tactic that would work in real life, but in a much less threatening environment online it just might work.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg


vvv I'm talking about online games

[This message was edited by luthier1 on Mon April 05 2004 at 08:46 PM.]

LEXX_Luthor
04-05-2004, 09:45 PM
AI aircraft gunners can take out carrier defense?

oh hell, this is going to be a brutal sim http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

luthier1
04-05-2004, 09:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG77_GK:
With out trying to sound Pro American, the United States Naval Victory at Midway, was the most significant Naval Victory in Military History out side of Nelsons Victory at Trafalgor!

They where Out numbered and Out gunned, In Aircraft carriers, Aircraft, Battle Ships Cruisers and Destroyers.

The fact that they had broken the Japanese communication codes, meant the Americans could position their out numbered Carrier force and wait for the Japanese Carrier force to commit their Carrier flight decks to attacking Midway Island.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the Americans should take the credit for victory at Midway. Majority of the credit for the American victory should be given to the Japanese. They've basically set up the most favorable situations for the Americans and continued to make decisions that further worsened their situation. Massive strategic failures of the Japanese commanders and their overall worldview is the main reason why their superior forces of better trained men lost so spectacularly.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

heywooood
04-05-2004, 09:46 PM
Absolutely !

I'm pretty sure there are going to be saki parties hosted by squads - and everyone is going to take turns - and lets say you pass a hat and put in a dollar (not advocating gambling, its jus a hat with $ in it)each time a pilot fails, in goes another dollar, and the one that gets through - gets to wear the hat.

Banzai !

Before anyone starts thinking about respect for the dead le' me ask you this... how the hell else are we going to know what they went through unless we try it ourselves?.. the ultimate show of respect and remembrance for Both sides.

Aztek_Eagle
04-06-2004, 02:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luthier1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG77_GK:
With out trying to sound Pro American, the United States Naval Victory at Midway, was the most significant Naval Victory in Military History out side of Nelsons Victory at Trafalgor!

They where Out numbered and Out gunned, In Aircraft carriers, Aircraft, Battle Ships Cruisers and Destroyers.

The fact that they had broken the Japanese communication codes, meant the Americans could position their out numbered Carrier force and wait for the Japanese Carrier force to commit their Carrier flight decks to attacking Midway Island.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the Americans should take the credit for victory at Midway. Majority of the credit for the American victory should be given to the Japanese. They've basically set up the most favorable situations for the Americans and continued to make decisions that further worsened their situation. Massive strategic failures of the Japanese commanders and their overall worldview is the main reason why their superior forces of better trained men lost so spectacularly.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well i have to say that in reality Commander Josheph Rochefort won battle of midway from the back of his desk, the japanese had a good plan, they would have ripoff midway and the american fleet if it was near midway, thanks to the intelligtence information of Commander Josheph Rochefort, they just got to wait for the japanese to come into range

T_O_A_D
04-06-2004, 03:42 AM
DUH!!! A true Kamakazi only tried it once http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snyde-Dastardly:
Like I said there SkyChimp,Whos gonna go in after em if they make it past ya?? Any takers?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif Hell Ill try it once,,,,one http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
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2.11 drivers (http://home.mchsi.com/~131st-vfw/NaturalPoint_trackIR_2_11.exe)
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luthier1
04-06-2004, 03:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aztek_Eagle:
Well i have to say that in reality Commander Josheph Rochefort won battle of midway from the back of his desk, the japanese had a good plan, they would have ripoff midway and the american fleet if it was near midway, thanks to the intelligtence information of Commander Josheph Rochefort, they just got to wait for the japanese to come into range<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't narrow it down to one man! Besides while we're on the topic, as cryptology is a major hobby of mine, if the Japanese actually followed their own rules and changed the cyphers as often as they should sanely be, the Americans would never have found out about Midway.

Anyway, I don't want to say anything negative about the Americans at Midway. I just believe that the amount of effort it took us to win the battle is far surpassed by the enormousness of Japanese failures.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

Snyde-Dastardly
04-06-2004, 06:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
Yes -please Luthier - make it as realistic as possible.

And I will prepare the ceremonial headband.
And write a letter to my parents
and say a prayer for my beloved Emporor
and drink the ceremonial saki
(And grab a couple of Geisha's)
And pay a visit to your carriers...
Banzai - Banzai! Banzai!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Heywooood Your killin me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif If only other people could hear your scream,beside your neighbors!

From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/GRDN.bmp

Snyde-Dastardly
04-06-2004, 06:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
Absolutely !

I'm pretty sure there are going to be saki parties hosted by squads - and everyone is going to take turns - and lets say you pass a hat and put in a dollar (not advocating gambling, its jus a hat with $ in it)each time a pilot fails, in goes another dollar, and the one that gets through - gets to wear the hat.

Banzai !

Before anyone starts thinking about respect for the dead le' me ask you this... how the hell else are we going to know what they went through unless we try it ourselves?.. the ultimate show of respect and remembrance for Both sides.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Im with ya on this one as well,and at least your keeping with the topic,,,hint hint. So far its me and you and as far as I can tell no one is comein after us under the flak umbrella http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Man this is gonna hurt http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gifLOL

From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/GRDN.bmp

Gunner_361st
04-06-2004, 08:08 AM
Hehe, this is going to be great.

If the ridiculous walls of flak don't kill you on the approach, the huge hit of all the AAA on your frames per second will. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

I have a good feeling PF is going to be loads of fun.

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1039.jpg

Aztek_Eagle
04-06-2004, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luthier1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aztek_Eagle:
Well i have to say that in reality Commander Josheph Rochefort won battle of midway from the back of his desk, the japanese had a good plan, they would have ripoff midway and the american fleet if it was near midway, thanks to the intelligtence information of Commander Josheph Rochefort, they just got to wait for the japanese to come into range<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't narrow it down to one man! Besides while we're on the topic, as cryptology is a major hobby of mine, if the Japanese actually followed their own rules and changed the cyphers as often as they should sanely be, the Americans would never have found out about Midway.

Anyway, I don't want to say anything negative about the Americans at Midway. I just believe that the amount of effort it took us to win the battle is far surpassed by the enormousness of Japanese failures.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

inteligence is the most important part about doing a war, and yes the japanese made several errors in the heat of battle, one of them is i guess losing their high and midium altitud cover, this zeros doing the patrol over the japanese fleet got to low when killing the torpedo bombers atacking the fleet witch was a big mistake, they left the dor open for a high altitud atack, but any ways, if they havent get low the torpedo bombers would have gotten better chances of making some hits, so in the way i see it, they made the right decisions at the time wiht the info that they had, in the heat of battle, u dont know whats gona happen next second, i dotn like to see that the japanese made big errors, but instead, the americans wiht their inteligence made the right choices at the right time wiht the better info they got... i am not american, and i dont like when americans talk like if they won ww2, or that they made the biggest effort to win it, but there is no way some one take credit from them at midway, japanese just didnt have the right info on the right time, thats why they made desisions based on wrong information and that was what cost them the battle... better work more on intelligence first next time... sometimes i wonder what kind of decisions would have i make in the same circustances at battle of midway in the japanese side...

just finish up some weeks ago reading a book about midway, i am reading now kurks, and then i will concentreat my reading on the pacific witch is the teather that i more like of ww2, my next book has to be iwo jima!

and i will always hold that Commander Josheph Rochefort and his team were a bendition from god to the americans at the battle of midway.....

heywooood
04-06-2004, 03:11 PM
Snyde-Dastardly -
I dont know why this thread was burried yesterday on Pg2 when i found it..
This has to be considered vital to a pacific sim IMO. whether it is programmed into AI.. or cooked up by online squads.. I would have several planes attempt to draw the cap down to the water.. send in some torpedo planes to lower the flak -then come screaming down with my Banzai team from hi alt.. and

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

Rebel_Yell_21
04-06-2004, 03:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luthier1:
Anyway, I don't want to say anything negative about the Americans at Midway. I just believe that the amount of effort it took us to win the battle is far surpassed by the enormousness of Japanese failures.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So true. Midway, like many of the major battles of WWII wasn't so much won, as lost. Moscow, Prokhorvka, Stalingrad, et al, could and should have all been enormous successes, but huge blunders made it possible to find victory.

http://www.flyvintage.com/img/backdrops/p-51d_big_beautiful_doll/thumb.jpg

Snyde-Dastardly
04-06-2004, 05:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
Snyde-Dastardly -
I dont know why this thread was burried yesterday on Pg2 when i found it..
This has to be considered vital to a pacific sim IMO. whether it is programmed into AI.. or cooked up by online squads.. I would have several planes attempt to draw the cap down to the water.. send in some torpedo planes to lower the flak -then come screaming down with my Banzai team from hi alt.. and

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well I agree with ya Haywooood,thats why I posted it. but some how it turned into a whos who of tactics. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Hey let it go on the back burner so when they least expect it,,,,Expect it!KPOW! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/GRDN.bmp

SkyChimp
04-06-2004, 06:40 PM
If the Japanese lost at Midway due to their blunders and neglect, then certainly the US gets the credit for discovering and taking advantage of those blunders. Because without question, that is what happened.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/wildsig.jpg

luthier1
04-06-2004, 07:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
If the Japanese lost at Midway due to their blunders and neglect, then certainly the US gets the credit for discovering and taking advantage of those blunders. Because without question, that is what happened.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Care to support that with some facts? I see the battle of Midway more like two guys running around in complete dark with shotguns, and one of them randomly pointing the shotgun at the right time just right to pull an impossible high deflection shot that hits the other guy right between the eyes. I'm not aware of the Americans actually discovering and taking advantage of any Japanese blunders during the course of the battle.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

heywooood
04-06-2004, 07:47 PM
Pure luck - pure, dumb, golden, luck..
"two guy with shotguns..in the dark".. nice.

DONB3397
04-06-2004, 07:54 PM
It's an interesting premise to suggest that the Japanese, with huge advantages, lost because of their blunders, and not U.S. information/intelligence. I wasn't aware that IJN policy was to change code at specific intervals.

But, if that's true, it seems to have been as much a series of bad decisions under fire, as bad planning. For example:
- A decision to rearm on deck as SBDs approached (even though warned).
- The failure to leave a number of Zeros on high cover following the last failed torpedo attack.
- The delay between bombing attacks and the resulting delay in landing ground forces after the first wave.

This carrier war was a new kind of warfare, I think. Carriers were mobile airfields, and with the technology of the '40's, neither side knew where the other's carriers were. The outcome of battles seems to have hinged on surprise. Pearl Harbor was a surprise. Midway was a surprise. The Doolittle Raid was a surprise. All were possible because of the mobility of carriers/aircraft.

That's one of the reasons this new PF sim is so exciting. If we play it the way the two navies had to fight it (without maps or icons), and with limited range radar...it could provide for some interesting...and unexpected battles. Imagine the online potential with this!

Carriers could change everything!

http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/3fe77b7e_1812a/bc/Images/Sig---1.jpg?BCMwWcABz_3TLZQo
There is no 'way' of winning;
There is only Winning!

heywooood
04-06-2004, 08:00 PM
No GPS? No satelite images? No internet porn?

Except for that last thing,yeah.. that does make it exciting.!

great post,Don - got it all in a nutshell.

luthier1
04-06-2004, 08:27 PM
DonB,

Well the main reason for the Japanese failures was the ideology that dictated their strategy. Basically, the Japanese commanders were so convinced in their superiority on all levels that they could not even imagine the possibility of failure. Not sure if fatalistic is the right word here, but basically they knew that they were destined to win any battle they've entered.

The whole Midway operation was planned like that. No possibility of any failures was planned for in any way. Throughout the operation they've refused to believe that anything could go wrong - and a multitude of events that would have raised warning flags in a commander of any other country were simply ignored. Even though it quickly became clear that their forces were discovered - and soon that American carriers were operating in the area - the operation continued to move forward as planned, i.e. assuming that american carriers were still in Pearl Harbor.

The American forces acted adequately. They did exactly what was expected of them. However the Japanese were so convinced in inevitability of victory that they've acted carelesly and foolishly, failing to adequately assess the situation or modify their tactics as things around them changed. They more than anybody else contributed to their colossal failure.

And then there's of course the element of pure luck. It was really a one in a million chance that the strike groups found the Japanese carriers in that order, and were presented with decks filled with planes. This wasn't planned, couldn't have been, no planner in his right mind could ever imagine such a favorable turn of events.

The huge intelligence victory on the part of the Americans was not in any way key to victory at sea. That was EXACTLY the Japanese plan after all, the whole goal of this operation was to lure the US carriers out of Pearl Harbor and engage them at Midway.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

DONB3397
04-06-2004, 09:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luthier1:
That was EXACTLY the Japanese plan after all, the whole goal of this operation was to lure the US carriers out of Pearl Harbor and engage them at Midway.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Great post, and absolutely my understanding of the Japanese mindset. Certainly their naval doctrine was to create the opportunity for a "decisive victory," which most officers considered inevitable. Perhaps that meant they didn't do the same kind of contingency planning they did at Pearl Harbor.

But I don't think they were frozen in disbelief when they saw U.S. a/c overhead. They downed every plane in two or three separate torpedo attacks.

Years ago, I read the IJN's account of the preparation and battle. They believed their command and control failed them at critical instances. And they acknowledged confusion at the moment of attack, and later in the decision about armament. And they weren't sure until the next day how small the U.S. force was.

But, they also pointed to the Navy's sense of invincibility, just as you have. It just seems unlikely to me that this accounted for the outcome.

In any case, raw luck was clearly with the U.S. Navy. And that affected the outcome.

http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/3fe77b7e_1812a/bc/Images/Sig---1.jpg?BCMwWcABz_3TLZQo
There is no 'way' of winning;
There is only Winning!

heywooood
04-06-2004, 10:03 PM
Ok - is the reason the Japanese code was never changed because they wanted us to know it and they could then set us up to expose our carriers - or were they too overconfident to feel the need to change it?..

Midway was a huge gamble for them.. They desperately wanted the Us carriers - it was the whole focus at Pearl.. so they were unlucky there..missed 'em.

Now the Dolittle Raiders do what no one had ever done to Japan, AND they know it was carrier borne.. so they become even more desperate to get our flatties..

So they cook up a deal - a two fer one.. stage an actual attack/landing at Midway.. but at the same time thinking about and (hoping for) a carrier encounter. Did they really beleive the Us Navy was just sitting around at Pearl after Coral Sea?..

Bad weather and poor radio comms with their scouts .. indecision on the decks of their carriers (bombs for Midway or torps for our fleet) bombs/torps-torps/bombs what to do?...

This encounter in the history of all encounters was the most pivotal in human conflict maybe? or Nelson @ Trafalgar ? Custer @ Little Bighorn? or continued..

04-06-2004, 10:40 PM
There is somthing everybody over looked, you need to study the Battle in depth to find it.
Luthier is correct that the Japanese attack on Midway was designed to draw the American Carriers out into combat so they could be destroyed.
Yamamoto planned to subdue Midway quickly establish an Air Base, so Long range bombers of the Type that destroyed force Z could fly in an arm up.
Then the Japanese Carriers combined with the land based bombers could destroy the American Carriers when they came out to try and retake Midway.

So the Americans did have the element of surprise!

However! This would have been negated completley except for one small thing.
The Japanese had every right to be confident, their standard operating proceedures for Carrier force operations where excellent!

Their carrier groups always had standard recon partols flying out in a fan, no matter what the Battle plan was.
One of the recon aircraft was delayed taking off because of engine problem I cant remember now weather it was 40 minutes or an hour and a half before the mechanical problem was resolved.
Anyhow the float plane eventualy took off.

This recon planes search sector was the one that would have had it fly almost right accross the top of the American carriers, at a time of day before the Japanese Carriers launched the first strike on Midway, and before the American recon had sighted the Japanese Carriers.

The Element of surprise would have been Japans! because of their First class Standard Operating proceedures for Carrier operations!

How such a little event like a mechanical problem with a recon flight for a certain sector could have had such devastating consequences for the Japanese Task force, the Japanese could never had known at the time.

Now go back and study the history of the Battle closely again, very closely.

Class Dismissed.

luthier1
04-06-2004, 10:53 PM
JG77_GK,

You're going to catch a lot of flak for your attitude. I'm sure that majority of the people posting here are well aware of this pretty well known detail. Please don't assume that you know more than everybody else.

Now I suggest you go back and study the battle in depth. Maybe you'll find a few more events that were much more important to the course of the battle than the scout's engine troubles.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

04-06-2004, 11:12 PM
My apolagies if I came accross that way, Luthier!
How could anybody resist!
It was such a vital sector to be blind in, and yet there is no way the Japanese task force commander could have known he was blind in the vital sector!

When you consider that the Japanese task force had still not been sighted by the time they had already launched the first attack wave against Midway, lets assume the delayed recon plane took off on time from the Japanese task force here.

It was the Americans that knew the Japanese where comming, some where, along the route yet they still did not know exactly where.

Imagine the surprised looks on the Bridge of the Japanese Carrier Akagi when they relized that not only where the American Carriers already at Midway, but that the US Carriers had probably been waiting to ambush them, !
and the Japanese would have known exactly where the American Carriers where, because of their standard operting proceedure for their Carrier forces.
How good is that! yet just that little spanner in the works.

Amazing isnt it.

[This message was edited by JG77_GK on Tue April 06 2004 at 11:30 PM.]

Ankanor
04-07-2004, 04:44 AM
In fact, the only people who didn't know that Kido Butai was sailing into a trap, were the officers and crew aboard those ships. The delayed Recon acted perfectly and do not deserve the bashing they receive. Actually, one other recon plane earlier flew right above TF16, but the dense clouds prevented it from detecting the enemy.
The Japanese did not plan a well defended Midway with 121 aircraft for recon and attack that would need a second strike to bring down, neither that those 121 planes would attack for more than an hour, preventing the carriers from launching the second strike. They did not plan American ships present before the fall of Midway. They did not plan the American will to fight.

O, how I want to hold you,
To feel your breath
And hear your laughter in my ears.
To look into your eyes
And see myself in there.
Caress you with my lips.
To hold your hands in mine
And find the hidden smile in your dimple
That makes you irresistible
And stops the breathing in my chest.
To be with you when you are weeping,
To wipe away the tears and take away the sorrow.
To watch you while you are sleeping
Like there is no tomorrow.

And with a tender kiss to wake you up.

Essen,23.02.2004 20:53

Aztek_Eagle
04-07-2004, 05:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luthier1:

And then there's of course the element of pure luck. It was really a one in a million chance that the strike groups found the Japanese carriers in that order, and were presented with decks filled with planes. This wasn't planned, couldn't have been, no planner in his right mind could ever imagine such a favorable turn of events.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well the launch of the main carrier atack was calculated by the comanders to get to the enemy carriers when they would be recovering the first atack wave send to midway... so in some way yes luck, but i would say more, they place them self in a situation where the american planes would catch them in the recovery and about launching time, they just hoped it would happen, but they didnt just stand there wiht their hopes, so they calculated the time for the japanese planes to return to their carriers, land on their carriers, and all that...

Aztek_Eagle
04-07-2004, 05:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ankanor:
They did not plan the American will to fight.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

in reality the americans at enemy sing of danger they would get their asses out of midway imidiatly, they made a hit and run, something like zoom and booming, and most of u say thats a cowards tactich, afther the second atack they turned away from japanese force witch was realy anger by losing their 4 carriers and was traying to get them self into a close cannon to cannon combat, so lets dont glorificate it, they had orders, in no way endanger the carriers, they were not willing to sufer heavy losses over this islands, even wiht out their carrier the japanese force was so strong that the americans would lost all their planes traying to destroy the japanese task force, and still the japanese force would have been strong enough to blow up the entired american task force

Snyde-Dastardly
04-07-2004, 06:42 AM
So,,who will be the first,,,aw forget it,,,LOL

From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/GRDN.bmp

Ankanor
04-07-2004, 07:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aztek_Eagle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ankanor:
They did not plan the American will to fight.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

in reality the americans at enemy sing of danger they would get their asses out of midway imidiatly, they made a hit and run, something like zoom and booming, and most of u say thats a cowards tactich, afther the second atack they turned away from japanese force witch was realy anger by losing their 4 carriers and was traying to get them self into a close cannon to cannon combat, so lets dont glorificate it, they had orders, in no way endanger the carriers, they were not willing to sufer heavy losses over this islands, even wiht out their carrier the japanese force was so strong that the americans would lost all their planes traying to destroy the japanese task force, and still the japanese force would have been strong enough to blow up the entired american task force<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

the reason that Japanese ships(cruisers, BBs and destroyers) landed troops and shelled american positions at Guadalcanal during the night was that they were afraid of the american bombers. Also, place yourself in Kondo's place. You have lost 4 carriers, you do not know where the enemy is, you can be attacked day and night, you have no chance of getting close to the enemy unless you are the luckiest man in the world. you have to conserve your strength, because Japan has limited recouces.

History showed numerous times that artillery ships have limited chance of success against aircraft.

I am telling you this as a non-american:
And about the will to fight, you really need to have guts to go with your 6 torpedo bombers aginst a fleet that has 36 fighters as CAP!!!
You must have great Courage to face an enemy that outnumbers you in every category.

O, how I want to hold you,
To feel your breath
And hear your laughter in my ears.
To look into your eyes
And see myself in there.
Caress you with my lips.
To hold your hands in mine
And find the hidden smile in your dimple
That makes you irresistible
And stops the breathing in my chest.
To be with you when you are weeping,
To wipe away the tears and take away the sorrow.
To watch you while you are sleeping
Like there is no tomorrow.

And with a tender kiss to wake you up.

Essen,23.02.2004 20:53

MornJW
04-07-2004, 07:54 AM
The concept of courage gets in the way of practical and successful tactics. It is only a useful concept in ensuring loyalty.

Aztek_Eagle
04-07-2004, 12:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ankanor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aztek_Eagle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ankanor:
They did not plan the American will to fight.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

in reality the americans at enemy sing of danger they would get their asses out of midway imidiatly, they made a hit and run, something like zoom and booming, and most of u say thats a cowards tactich, afther the second atack they turned away from japanese force witch was realy anger by losing their 4 carriers and was traying to get them self into a close cannon to cannon combat, so lets dont glorificate it, they had orders, in no way endanger the carriers, they were not willing to sufer heavy losses over this islands, even wiht out their carrier the japanese force was so strong that the americans would lost all their planes traying to destroy the japanese task force, and still the japanese force would have been strong enough to blow up the entired american task force<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

the reason that Japanese ships(cruisers, BBs and destroyers) landed troops and shelled american positions at Guadalcanal during the night was that they were afraid of the american bombers. Also, place yourself in Kondo's place. You have lost 4 carriers, you do not know where the enemy is, you can be attacked day and night, you have no chance of getting close to the enemy unless you are the luckiest man in the world. you have to conserve your strength, because Japan has limited recouces.

History showed numerous times that artillery ships have limited chance of success against aircraft.

I am telling you this as a non-american:
And about the will to fight, you really need to have guts to go with your 6 torpedo bombers aginst a fleet that has 36 fighters as CAP!!!
You must have great Courage to face an enemy that outnumbers you in every category.

O, how I want to hold you,
To feel your breath
And hear your laughter in my ears.
To look into your eyes
And see myself in there.
Caress you with my lips.
To hold your hands in mine
And find the hidden smile in your dimple
That makes you irresistible
And stops the breathing in my chest.
To be with you when you are weeping,
To wipe away the tears and take away the sorrow.
To watch you while you are sleeping
Like there is no tomorrow.

And with a tender kiss to wake you up.

Essen,23.02.2004 20:53
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

u think airplanes are unlimited, and that at a close range battle they are of much help? how many planes do u think the americans lost at those atack waves, and how many they got left?
and they knew where the american task force was

[This message was edited by Aztek_Eagle on Wed April 07 2004 at 11:33 AM.]

heywooood
04-07-2004, 05:41 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snyde-Dastardly:
So,,who will be the first,,,aw forget it,,,LOL

Snyde - you definitely need to go first - it was your thread after all...

But don't lagg cause I'll be coming from the other side!!! BANZAI!!!!!!!!!!AAAAARGHHH!!!

Snyde-Dastardly
04-08-2004, 01:46 PM
I actually tryed it with a group of destroyers and battleships. I did what you said and had the flight go low and I peeled high. By the time the AAA got to me it was to late and I hit my mark! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/GRDN.bmp

heywooood
04-08-2004, 02:01 PM
Ok...shhhhhhquiet

I thought it might - but remember- they are hooking up a helller lot more guns on the carriers and cruisers for PF..

Snyde-Dastardly
04-08-2004, 02:37 PM
Woops just call me TOP SECRET http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Yea but I thought Id give it a run. Were gonna need alot of guys! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

From this day to the end of the world, we in it shall be remembered, we band of brothers http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/GRDN.bmp

04-08-2004, 04:16 PM
Well Guys,
I think we are all in agreement that Midway was certainly the Pivotal Battle in the Pacific !
That it could have gone either way, and that lady luck played her part along with good intelligence and planning.
You know the old saying about how you can make your own luck.

I have absoluelty no doubts at all, that I wont be the only one attempting to create a massivley Multiplayer mini Coop Online Campaign over 2-3 Missions around the Islands of Midway when PF is released.

Luthier certainly has a tiger by the tail with this Sim!

Cheers