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pacmanate
04-26-2015, 04:58 AM
So the box is empty, it needed electricity to work. Shao never found this out, Shay did.

So what was Ezio talking about when he gave the box to Shao and said that it would aid her to save China? And that she should only open it if she lost her way?

All the precursor box showed was a map of other precursor sites apart from having the ability to translate first civilization scripts.

Those are my first 2 questions.

My last one is, is there conflicting writing here in the AC Universe? How would Ezio know the box needed electricity to work? If he did he sure as hell knew there would be nothing inside it otherwise. Then if he DID know about the electricity why didn't he tell Shao how to work it?

But then that leads to the 2 questions, how would a translator and a map help Shao find her way if she got lost?

It's all a mindfloop to me.

RA503
04-26-2015, 05:03 AM
the description on chronicles trailer video says that india starts when a templar appear with ''a artifact that belongs to assassins order'' maybe we see more about the box in india,zhang young says in the end that the templar lead the box to another place...

But then that leads to the 2 questions, how would a translator and a map help Shao find her way if she got lost?

if I not wrong this is in the manuscript 18 of ac china, sequence 11 have 4 you have to find one more,the exact motive I forget...

pacmanate
04-26-2015, 05:07 AM
the description on chronicles trailer video says that india starts when a templar appear with ''a artifact that belongs to assassins order'' maybe we see more about the box in india,zhang young says in the end that the templar lead the box to another place...

That's not the question though. I'm asking about what Ezio was banging on about that it would help Shao and how Ezio even knew what the Precursor box did if he needed electricity. And if he did know it needed electricity why didn't he say?

RA503
04-26-2015, 05:22 AM
That's not the question though. I'm asking about what Ezio was banging on about that it would help Shao and how Ezio even knew what the Precursor box did if he needed electricity. And if he did know it needed electricity why didn't he say?

The answer is in the manuscript 18 that you found in sequence 11,the master knows that the box is a precursor one,but lies to shao jun saying that is only a metaphor for her discover that only her can change his destiny (oohh remember that Kung Fu Panda scrool ?).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO6NOx53SrU

D.I.D.
04-26-2015, 03:13 PM
That's not the question though. I'm asking about what Ezio was banging on about that it would help Shao and how Ezio even knew what the Precursor box did if he needed electricity. And if he did know it needed electricity why didn't he say?

I guess they'd say Ezio knew a truth about it because of his unicorn genes, and that even he didn't know that the application of electricity could bypass that. Then again, you'd think the prescient First Civ would have seen that problem on the horizon rather than building secret tech that could be circumvented with an electrical current. As you point out, it doesn't explain why he'd say it would be specifically useful to her, unless he meant "It's too early for you to read Herman Melville novels, but this will have to suffice as a valuable lesson about wild goose chases". Ennnnhhh. This is exactly why they should focus on history that actually happened.

Shahkulu101
04-26-2015, 03:33 PM
The real reason is that when Ezio said that in Embers the writers themselves had no clue what was in the box and it was an easy to contrive 'mystery'.

In a hypothetical situation where this wasn't the case, maybe Ezio was concealing the truth about it's true nature because Shao wasn't ready for the knowledge it contained or some other crap.

Real talk: Screw the TWCB stuff. Seriously, the series would be so much better without it. The whole solar flare plot line ruined the MD narrative because it overlapped with the much more cool threat of the Abstergo satellite.

Farlander1991
04-26-2015, 03:47 PM
When I watched Embers for the first time, I always figured the box was something 'inspiring', you know? Ezio's notes, letters from his father, or from him to his sister, or I dunno, something that would inspire Shao Jun to not give up when she thinks to. And the 'you'll see what's in the box' was 'we're preparing for a touching moment'.

But Freedom Cry and onwards, this box has transformed into a Precursor artifact, which, for some reason, Ezio somehow acquired after ACR which ended with him specifically not wanting to do anything with the TWCB artifacts!!! If it's such a powerful artifact that has changed sides for centuries, going, at the least, from Italy, to China, to Caribbean, to America, to France, to India, to Russia, question is - how the hell did Ezio get ahold of it and why he kept it?!

pacmanate
04-26-2015, 03:54 PM
Well the box now basically is not the same box at all, if you catch my drift. Which sucks. I kinda expected another memory seal, something Ezio made for Shao but in tiny form.

VestigialLlama4
04-26-2015, 04:36 PM
When I watched Embers for the first time, I always figured the box was something 'inspiring', you know? Ezio's notes, letters from his father, or from him to his sister, or I dunno, something that would inspire Shao Jun to not give up when she thinks to. And the 'you'll see what's in the box' was 'we're preparing for a touching moment'.

Exactly. Ezio told Shao that she should only use the box if she ever felt was lost. How exactly does that work? "Look Shao, if you are ever lost or down-and-out, a box-which-I-myself-don't-know-how-it-works is exactly what's going to get you out of your funk."

I always assumed that the box contained Leonardo da Vinci's last Uprade which Ezio got hold of after he retired but could no longer use and so kept hidden. In AC3, when Achilles introduces the Rope Dart, I thought, okay that was what was in the box, Leonardo invented that but Ezio retired and so he passed it to Shao and that was in the box. What might have happened was that Darby McDevitt (who wrote Embers) created Shao and someone at Ubisoft thought that she could be a protagonist for another game and he decided to leave that box ambiguous so they could make it whatever they choose as Shao's inheritance weapon. But somewhere down the road they made it to this, to I can't help myself, "the all powerful inanimate carbon rod".

And then ROGUE reveals that the Box causes earthquakes!!! The absurdity of human beings causing earthquakes is something that takes the AC Lore to purely stupid realms, even dumber than magical mind-controlling Apples. I mean Darby McDevitt complained repeatedly that the Pieces of Eden was getting too overpowered and he sought to dial it down. Revelations had Memory Seals, then likweise AC3 had fewer magical artifact hijinks than AC1 (they saved it for the DLC). Black Flag introduced Observatory and Sages (a newer cooler, down-to-earth concept), Unity continued with the Sage theme and dialed down the crazy (to its meager credit). Then out comes the fanfiction express Rogue to screw everything up again.


But Freedom Cry and onwards, this box has transformed into a Precursor artifact, which, for some reason, Ezio somehow acquired after ACR which ended with him specifically not wanting to do anything with the TWCB artifacts!!! If it's such a powerful artifact that has changed sides for centuries, going, at the least, from Italy, to China, to Caribbean, to America, to France, to India, to Russia, question is - how the hell did Ezio get ahold of it and why he kept it?!

Maybe Leonardo da Vinci invented it? In Rogue, the box is accompanied with the Voynich Manuscript, that is a real-world stock-unsolved-mystery. In real-life its written in some indecipherable code or made-up language, and some assume that Leonardo wrote it.

Either way it doesn't matter. It's just a massive retcon.

SixKeys
04-26-2015, 08:41 PM
This is exactly why I've stopped paying attention to the lore. The worst thing is that the disappointment of the "resolutions" to old plot threads are beginning to sour my memories of the old games. When I play through AC1-ACR again, I can't help but feel bitter about all the promises that were poorly resolved, like Lucy's fate, Subject 16, the satellite plot, Ezio's box, the items Desmond found around Monteriggioni, Templar training program etc. They've done such a poor job of tying up loose ends that it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And I really hate this new obsession with making everything interconnected. Ezio's box couldn't just be a box that contained something inspirational or useful - no, it had to be a Precursor machine that nobody knew how to use until centuries later. It just creates entire new plotholes instead of solving old ones.

Farlander1991
04-26-2015, 09:08 PM
And I really hate this new obsession with making everything interconnected.

Is it really new, though? One of the things I hated the most about AC2 glyphs is how pretty much nothing happened without Assassin or Templar interference, and how everyone and their grandma owned at some point a Piece of Eden. Everything after just increased the interconnectiness of what was set-up there.


It just creates entire new plotholes instead of solving old ones.

Plotholes started with the very first game that was made in parallel development - that being ACB with its finding of the Apple that was supposed to be destroyed (while it wasn't stated directly, it was very, very, VERY heavily implied that Altair's apple was on Cyprus, and it got destroyed, so when the team found it in ACB, it was like, wtf?! And then they created a game where it's explained that, 'oh, it's not the same Apple, Altair just spread rumour that there's an Apple on Cyprus, and what do you know, there happened to be one there!!!')

It kinda is obvious why - they never had a plan for all this stuff. Like, they might have had an overall plan for the original supposed trilogy of games (though I still don't know how they'd solve both the satellite and solar flare plot in one game satisfyingly), but nothing really beyond that but as soon as things started developing in parallel it was just, making things up on the spot. (heck, judging by interview with Jeffrey, the whole AC2 glyph thing was pretty much on the spot as well).

VestigialLlama4
04-26-2015, 09:26 PM
Is it really new, though? One of the things I hated the most about AC2 glyphs is how pretty much nothing happened without Assassin or Templar interference, and how everyone and their grandma owned at some point a Piece of Eden. Everything after just increased the interconnectiness of what was set-up there.

Well the first game, with Warren Vidic boasting about Abstergo/Templars being pioneers of human history and its emails filled with lore and other stuff, and references to Denver were hardly slouches in world building. The game ended with the Subject 16 logos on the Floor and Desmond's Room. The Magical Apple was there at the end of AC1.


Plotholes started with the very first game that was made in parallel development - that being ACB with its finding of the Apple that was supposed to be destroyed (while it wasn't stated directly, it was very, very, VERY heavily implied that Altair's apple was on Cyprus, and it got destroyed, so when the team found it in ACB, it was like, wtf?! And then they created a game where it's explained that, 'oh, it's not the same Apple, Altair just spread rumour that there's an Apple on Cyprus, and what do you know, there happened to be one there!!!')[/qupte]

Altair's Apple wasn't the one in Cyprus and he was never going to destroy it, it was apparently destroyed in the Denver Incident discussed in AC1. He confesses to Al Mualim ("I can't"/"Yes you can Altair...but you won't!") That Apple in Cyprus came from somewhere else, it was the one the Ottomans used to conquer Constantinople as per the wikia.

[quote]It kinda is obvious why - they never had a plan for all this stuff.

It's like a bad TV show that way. Like LOST. But anyway for me the MD stuff aside from some parts is something I was always indifferent to. The historical section is more important for me.


(heck, judging by interview with Jeffrey, the whole AC2 glyph thing was pretty much on the spot as well).

I always assumed that the glyph thing shouldn't be taken literally. It's created by Subject 16 and his consciousness has been out of it for some time. Darby McDevitt said in Black Flag that some of his visions showed alternate paths across history and he couldn't tell which was which. The EDEN memory in AC2 is definitely true since its an Animus Render but stuff like Hitler, Churchill and Roosevelt collaborating on World War 2 and the Templars orchestrating the Holocaust seems to have been tossed out there without much thought. It makes later games arguing for sympathetic templars false and a WW2 game impossible to make, since you can't put a game accusing the defeaters and opposers of Nazism to be Nazi collaborators.

SixKeys
04-26-2015, 09:39 PM
Is it really new, though? One of the things I hated the most about AC2 glyphs is how pretty much nothing happened without Assassin or Templar interference, and how everyone and their grandma owned at some point a Piece of Eden. Everything after just increased the interconnectiness of what was set-up there.

True, but AC2 was only the second game in the series so it was still acceptable. We were also under the impression that a new game = new protagonist, so we thought we'd seen the last of Ezio after the credits rolled. His life was all about intricate conspiracies in true Da Vinci Code fashion because it fit with the whole Italian politics theme. Then he returned in two more games and things started getting overly convoluted.

What really bothers me is that in the AC universe it's apparently no longer possible for things to just happen without assassin or Templar involvement. Edward was supposed to be a neutral outsider, but in the novel it turns out his father was killed by Templars. Haytham wasn't just some guy who chose the Templar lifestyle because it made sense to him, no, he was conned into it after Templars messed with his family and brainwashed him. Ziio wasn't just some native woman who happened to sleep with Haytham, she knew Achilles and knew about the assassins. Achilles wasn't limping just because he was an old, out-of-shape man who could have injured his leg while on his way to the toilet at night. No, he was actually crippled by Haytham, the father of his future pupil. What a coincidence! Adewale didn't just live out his life in the Caribbean until dying in his sleep, he had to be killed by Shay, the person who just happened to be responsible for wiping out the entire North American brotherhood. And the box that was in all of these people's possession was given to them by none other than Ezio Auditore da Firenze, all the way from AC2.

It's ironic that these games rely so heavily on the theme of choice and freedom, yet the narrative implies nothing is ever truly up to chance. Every single bad thing that's ever happened in the history of the world is due to these two quarreling factions and every single person who has ever become an assassin was destined for it. Even Alta´r wasn't just a random guy who was recruited by Al Mualim for his skills, but someone whose father was an assassin and therefore grew up in that lifestyle.

Farlander1991
04-26-2015, 09:45 PM
Well the first game, with Warren Vidic boasting about Abstergo/Templars being pioneers of human history and its emails filled with lore and other stuff, and references to Denver were hardly slouches in world building. The game ended with the Subject 16 logos on the Floor and Desmond's Room. The Magical Apple was there at the end of AC1.

There's a difference between AC1 and AC2, though. AC1 was kinda vague, and while there's nothing wrong in getting more concrete as time passes by (as it should, honestly), AC2 just repeatedly hit with the bludgeon on how everything's related to AvT war and the TWCB artifacts.


Altair's Apple wasn't the one in Cyprus and he was never going to destroy it, it was apparently destroyed in the Denver Incident discussed in AC1. He confesses to Al Mualim ("I can't"/"Yes you can Altair...but you won't!") That Apple in Cyprus came from somewhere else, it was the one the Ottomans used to conquer Constantinople as per the wikia.

I never said Altair was going to destroy it. My point was, at the time AC2 was released, the Apple that Altair used was the one that he hid on Cyprus, that Rodrigo has brought to Italy and that eventually got destroyed. Only the Apple that was brought from Cyprus was found in ACB, and the only reason Ubi managed to retcon it (in a game that came later that was never part of the plan, mind you, especially during AC2 and Bloodlines development) without factual plotholes is due to technicality that we never actually see Altair do that.


Edward was supposed to be a neutral outsider, but in the novel it turns out his father was killed by Templars

I remember I was so pissed off when I found that out. The novel doesn't exist for me :p


Even Alta´r wasn't just a random guy who was recruited by Al Mualim for his skills, but someone whose father was an assassin and therefore grew up in that lifestyle.

I always for some reason thought that Altair was somebody Al Mualim trained and raised from early childhood (hence the arrogance of being 'the best'). Hence the 'ibn la-Ahad' - some unknown nobody boy found on the street.
...
And then his father is suddenly Umar, which wouldn't make Altair 'ibn la-Ahad' >_<

I-Like-Pie45
04-26-2015, 09:55 PM
you can chalk that up to darby mcdebbit not doing his arab research, that pirate rascal

SixKeys
04-26-2015, 09:57 PM
I always for some reason thought that Altair was somebody Al Mualim trained and raised from early childhood (hence the arrogance of being 'the best'). Hence the 'ibn la-Ahad' - some unknown nobody boy found on the street.
...
And then his father is suddenly Umar, which wouldn't make Altair 'ibn la-Ahad' >_<

I know! It's even weirder than when we first see him in ACR, Alta´r immediately introduces himself as "son of Umar". He was close to the age that we see in AC1 by then, so at what point did people start referring to him as "son of no one", and why? If it was known who his father was, if he was a famous assassin no less, why would Alta´r choose to not be remembered as Umar's son anymore? In the AC2 Codex he clearly says he never really knew his parents and that Al Mualim was more like a father to him. Yet in ACR they make a point of him mentioning Umar, making it seem like he's proud of his heritage.

Oh, speaking of transmedia: let's not forget Daniel Cross, who could have just been a random, cool modern day Templar who we met in a comic once. But then they decided to make his and Desmond's stories interconnected, so suddenly he shows up out of nowhere in AC3, acting like he's Desmond's biggest rival. I have no doubt that when Chronicles: Russia is released, we'll find out Nikolai's story somehow ties into everyone else's, instead of being its own, self-contained story like The Fall. Calling it now: in his game, Nikolai is searching for an artefact that has been mentioned in the series before and suddenly ties three separate games together, just like Shao Jun's box. Maybe Nikolai will talk about the new "Al Mualim" that Arno mentions in Dead Kings, or maybe he's after Napoleon's Apple. Maybe he's the inventor of the grappling hook we will use in Victory. Something contrived like that.

Edit: Just realized Nikolai's timeline comes after Victory, so he can't be the inventor of the grappling hook. :p Still, the point stands.

Farlander1991
04-26-2015, 09:59 PM
you can chalk that up to darby mcdebbit not doing his arab research, that pirate rascal

I always figured that was due to Oliver Bowden, the one who wrote the books :p As far as I know the Altair sequences had to be synchronized with him, as he was writing about Altair's life in a book that was released like half a year before Revelations.


Calling it now: in his game, Nikolai is searching for an artefact that has been mentioned in the series before and suddenly ties three separate games together, just like Shao Jun's box. Maybe Nikolai will talk about the new "Al Mualim" that Arno mentions in Dead Kings, or maybe he's after Napoleon's Apple. Maybe he's the inventor of the grappling hook we will use in Victory. Something contrived like that.

Uhm... he'll most likely find the box :p It's already been confirmed that the box is the common element in all three Chronicles games that ties the meta-narrative together there.

VestigialLlama4
04-26-2015, 10:07 PM
There's a difference between AC1 and AC2, though. AC1 was kinda vague, and while there's nothing wrong in getting more concrete as time passes by (as it should, honestly), AC2 just repeatedly hit with the bludgeon on how everything's related to AvT war and the TWCB artifacts.

That's true enough, but it's also how you see the series. If you take the Assassins and Templars in the game on the "literal" level then this is disappointing but if like me, you see the Assassins, Templars and Lore and stuff are just elaborate metaphors for the historical part, then its part of parcel. The minute the games leave the Crusades, the historical reality of Assassins and Templars, it has to take on a new mythology and conspiracy mythology was part of that, and you know conspiracy stuff by necessity is all about how "Everything is connected". So I don't see how that can be levelled against it, it's part of the conspiracy genre. I mean conspiracy stuff is all about some random coincidences and stuff adding up, so if in AC, all these elements and stuff are connected by wild coincidences and no one is just this outsider who comes in, then its part of the logic of the genre and nothing else.

At its best, like in AC2 or AC3-Black Flag (anything except the evil that is UNITY and ROGUE), the conspiracy stuff was this loose and light thing, it wasn't really meant to be taken all that seriously. I mean the MD Templars are all broad caricatures, AC2 has a fistfight with the Pope, there's always this over-the-top element that collides with relatively down-to-earth historical fiction. The conspiracy, templars-assasins are all gaming tropes, its there to provide levels, achievements and "small victories" and other stuff. That's always how I saw it. For me it was the historical part, the characterization, period details and architecture, as well as broadly subversive spirit, that made those games work. The minute the games loses that core redeeming element (like in ROGUE and UNITY) the games die.



I always for some reason thought that Altair was somebody Al Mualim trained and raised from early childhood (hence the arrogance of being 'the best'). Hence the 'ibn la-Ahad' - some unknown nobody boy found on the street.
...
And then his father is suddenly Umar, which wouldn't make Altair 'ibn la-Ahad' >_<

Yeah that was a really nonsensical retcon and that only worked because they wanted to build Abbas into this villain. I mean I don't know why Abbas had to have this personal family grudge with Altair's Dad, his criticisms of Altair burning Al Mualim and all the radical changes Altair was bringing in (as well as marrying a Templar woman) would have been reason enough to start an enemy faction. It's just over-written and that's the problem of AC games stuff that doesn't cohere.

In the INITIATES website, which I had followed, you had Eseosa's codex, and in that it mentions Robespierre ended slavery and Napoleon brought it back. The Haitian Assassins complain about French Assassins not offering support. From reading that I got the sense that Robespierre might be a more sympathetic figure while Napoleon could be Templar Grandmaster. Then UNITY comes along, and Robespierre is Spawn of Satan while Napoleon is Mr. Cool with Arno. Unless they do some major retcon, I think you can argue that Arno is pro-slavery. So they can't stay internally consistent within a year's development. I mean the lore and story was UNITY must have been set when they wrote Eseosa's story.

pacmanate
04-26-2015, 10:08 PM
I

Uhm... he'll most likely find the box :p It's already been confirmed that the box is the common element in all three Chronicles games that ties the meta-narrative together there.

Oh really? What's the point :| we already know what the box does and it's nothing particularly interesting. Why have Rogue and 3 Chronicles games about it. If Chronicles came out BEFORE Rogue it would make much more sense, it would be leading up to the reveal that its just a map and a translator.

Farlander1991
04-26-2015, 10:28 PM
That's true enough, but it's also how you see the series. If you take the Assassins and Templars in the game on the "literal" level then this is disappointing but if like me, you see the Assassins, Templars and Lore and stuff are just elaborate metaphors for the historical part, then its part of parcel. The minute the games leave the Crusades, the historical reality of Assassins and Templars, it has to take on a new mythology and conspiracy mythology was part of that, and you know conspiracy stuff by necessity is all about how "Everything is connected".

Conspiracy theory was part of the series before the game leaves the Crusades - even in AC1 (at least due to the simple fact that the two factions have secretly survived for at least a thousand of years). Heck, conspiracy theory is a part of the crusade era itself, with the Templars being more that they are, and the Apple being stated to be what Jesus used to show himself as the son of God and what the Old Testament of the Bible was based on, essentially. The difference is, though, that AC1 doesn't go overboard with it. It teases you how the conspiracy theorist nutjubs did have a point and has fun with that, but also shows that they weren't actually fully right.

AC2 onwards the whole conspiracy ridiculousness is played straight.

Though this is not the biggest crime of AC2 against what AC1 has set-up or established. Its biggest crime is the Solar Flare.

Yes, AC1 teases with the end of the world messages from Subject 16, apocalypse, all that kind of stuff. But, just like it does with conspiracies, it pulls an interesting twist - the date of Abstergo satellite launch, the one they want to send the Apple with to take control of all humanity, is December 21st. That's a clever take on the end of the world trope, as metaphorically speaking it might be (end of the old world and start of the new Templar one). For me personally, seeing that date with that twist alone was warrant enough for me to wait until 2012 for AC3 (we knew that AC would be a trilogy and it made total sense time-wise for the final part to be released close to that date).

And what AC2 does? Says nope! There's an ACTUAL end of the world coming, only we can stop it, and that thing about the satellite launch which is part of the actual Assassin vs Templar conflict and can be used to explore more the interests and philosophies of the two parties? Yeah, let's push it back to the side, it's not as important.


Oh really? What's the point :| we already know what the box does and it's nothing particularly interesting. Why have Rogue and 3 Chronicles games about it. If Chronicles came out BEFORE Rogue it would make much more sense, it would be leading up to the reveal that its just a map and a translator.

To be fair, we don't know the extent of the box's abilities. Like, what if you use a different manuscript with it, or smth? It will show smth else, and that something else might have relevance.

Namikaze_17
04-26-2015, 10:41 PM
Edward was supposed to be a neutral outsider, but in the novel it turns out his father was killed by Templars.

Every time I want to forget that wretched novel, it keeps returning in one form or another. :rolleyes:


Achilles wasn't limping just because he was an old, out-of-shape man who could have injured his leg while on his way to the toilet at night. No, he was actually crippled by Haytham, the father of his future pupil.


Yeah, that bothered me in Rogue. Like why did Haytham HAVE to shoot his leg? I was fine knowing Achilles just got old and needed a cane over time.

But nope, everything has to be dramatic I guess. :/



To be fair, we don't know the extent of the box's abilities. Like, what if you use a different manuscript with it, or smth? It will show smth else, and that something else might have relevance.


True, something tells me there's more to it than this... hopefully.

pacmanate
04-26-2015, 10:50 PM
To be fair, we don't know the extent of the box's abilities. Like, what if you use a different manuscript with it, or smth? It will show smth else, and that something else might have relevance.

Then it will translate that different manuscript? Its just google translate with a first civ language, its not just for one manuscript.

Of course other manuscripts will show something else but thats not the point. The point is that the boxes abilities only showed in AC Rogue, all the Chronicles games are previous to Rogues time period.

Im saying that Chronicles should have led up to Rogue, cause in Rogue we know the power it has, the power of Google Translate. Having us know this and playing the Chronicle games now is basically like playing "Pass the Parcel through the Ages"

Farlander1991
04-26-2015, 10:50 PM
Yeah, that bothered me in Rogue. Like why did Haytham HAVE to shoot his leg? I was fine knowing Achilles just got old and needed a cane over time.

Haytham shooting his leg to me makes sense, actually.

Maybe this has something to do with me thinking Haytham was the main reason behind the destruction of the Assassin Order in the american colonies when I played AC3, so somewhere in my mind he was the one who crippled Achilles even before Rogue was even conceived as an idea.


The point is that the boxes abilities only showed in AC Rogue, all the Chronicles games are previous to Rogues time period.

Huh? India and Russia happen long after Rogue.

pacmanate
04-26-2015, 10:53 PM
Huh? India and Russia happen long after Rogue.

Wat.

I really shouldn't have taken this 4 months away from the forums :|


Edit: So AC Chronicles Russia happens in 1918.. AC Victory is set in the 1800's. I hope AC Victory doesn't have anything to do with this stupid box.

Farlander1991
04-26-2015, 10:59 PM
Wat.

I really shouldn't have taken this 4 months away from the forums :|

Yeah, India is 1841 (two years after Brahman comic) and Russia is 1918, between the two comics about Nikolai.


Edit: So AC Chronicles Russia happens in 1918.. AC Victory is set in the 1800's. I hope AC Victory doesn't have anything to do with this stupid box.

Unlikely, considering that it's used in the Chronicles games. MAYBE part of DLC or smth. The box is something used only in side material - Embers, Freedom Cry, Rogue, now Chronicles.

Namikaze_17
04-26-2015, 11:03 PM
I fear Victory may be about the box as the last historical person to have it thus far is Shay, as MD Assassins get it later on.

Victory could be the transition in which the Assassins get it back.



Haytham shooting his leg to me makes sense, actually.

Maybe this has something to do with me thinking Haytham was the main reason behind the destruction of the Assassin Order in the american colonies when I played AC3, so somewhere in my mind he was the one who crippled Achilles even before Rogue was even conceived as an idea.


Yeah, that always made sense to me too.

But over time, I just assumed they just beated Achilles to a pulp and left him to his Homestead where he eventually just grew old like any other person.

It's just that even though it made sense, it just seemed unnecessary as Achilles was already beaten as it was.

Farlander1991
04-26-2015, 11:07 PM
I fear Victory may be about the box as the last historical person to have it thus far is Shay, as MD Assassins get it later on.

Victory could be the transition in which the Assassins get it back.

Only we kinda already know that the box will be in both Arbaaz Mir's and Nicolai's possessions, at least for a short while, since they both retrieve/have a 'mysterious artifact' at some point (and we already know the box is shared between all Chronicles games so it's kinda not that mysterious)

EDIT: I think it's pretty safe to say that Victory will be about a Sage, those are the guys the meta-narrative seems to be about AC4 onwards until whichever arc we're in ends.

Namikaze_17
04-26-2015, 11:13 PM
Only we kinda already know that the box will be in both Arbaaz Mir's and Nicolai's possessions, at least for a short while, since they both retrieve/have a 'mysterious artifact' at some point (and we already know the box is shared between all Chronicles games so it's kinda not that mysterious)

Oh, they are all centered around the box?

Well disregard what I said then! ^__^"



I think it's pretty safe to say that Victory will be about a Sage, those are the guys the meta-narrative seems to be about AC4 onwards until whichever arc we're in ends.


Of course.

Just the Box being stretched to all these periods just made me question if it would show up in Victory.

But like you said, it'll be about the Sage plot and all that. :P

SixKeys
04-26-2015, 11:18 PM
Im saying that Chronicles should have led up to Rogue, cause in Rogue we know the power it has, the power of Google Translate.

This made me laugh. It does make it sound rather mundane, doesn't it? Then again, I've always said we need PoEs that aren't as overpowered as the Apple, which had the ability to mind-control, create illusions, predict the future, show alternate timelines, kill people with lightning bolts etc. The First Civ artefacts were simply advanced tools of their time, they could be anything, like an electrical toothbrush that happened to survive. Would be kinda funny if assassins from the Crusades and Renaissance era were completely mystified with something that turns out to be really ordinary. But with the box it feels like they're dragging it on too long. We know it's just an elaborate navigator, basically, why do we need four games about it? They already kinda pulled the same **** with AC3, the whole reason Desmond had to go through Connor's life was to find a necklace that opened a door. It was a bit anticlimactic, to say the least.

Farlander1991
04-26-2015, 11:28 PM
They already kinda pulled the same **** with AC3, the whole reason Desmond had to go through Connor's life was to find a necklace that opened a door. It was a bit anticlimactic, to say the least.

What's even more funny is how some people say, 'oh, AC3 historical part mattered for the modern day part, unlike the newer games'. Yeah, it mattered so much that Connor never even hears of the key or cares about it until the very end of the game.

Though, I already have a huge post somewhere where I state how not connected the historical narrative and modern day narrative are and why it was bad for the series :p

Mr.Black24
04-27-2015, 12:08 AM
I know! It's even weirder than when we first see him in ACR, Alta´r immediately introduces himself as "son of Umar". He was close to the age that we see in AC1 by then, so at what point did people start referring to him as "son of no one", and why? If it was known who his father was, if he was a famous assassin no less, why would Alta´r choose to not be remembered as Umar's son anymore? In the AC2 Codex he clearly says he never really knew his parents and that Al Mualim was more like a father to him. Yet in ACR they make a point of him mentioning Umar, making it seem like he's proud of his heritage.

His surname means "Son of None" because that is what it simply means in Arabic. Like how Connor means "Lover of Hounds", in the root of that name's language. Its simply culture and languages, that is how it is.


Yeah, that always made sense to me too.

But over time, I just assumed they just beated Achilles to a pulp and left him to his Homestead where he eventually just grew old like any other person.

It's just that even though it made sense, it just seemed unnecessary as Achilles was already beaten as it was. He honored Shay's request on letting Achilles live, but in order to make sure he wasn't active as a problematic Assassin either, he crippled him physically, than to be sure he won't try to train future Assassins, they crippled him mentally. However that didn't stop him in the end.....:rolleyes:

************************************************** *******

As for the box....has anyone seen this? In the beginning, before the Box's function was discovered, it meant something else....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sfKkOdArLk

RA503
04-27-2015, 12:13 AM
Rogue hack documents emply that the box is important for project phoenix, how I don't know.

and Victory will be about that new type of sage, Eve .

Farlander1991
04-27-2015, 12:15 AM
His surname means "Son of None" because that is what it simply means in Arabic. Like how Connor means "Lover of Hounds", in the root of that name's language. Its simply culture and languages, that is how it is.

Yes, it's culture and languages, and in the culture we're talking about, if Altair's father name was Umar, he'd be Altair ibn Umar, because that's how it works in that culture. If he's son of Umar than it says he's son of Umar. Those are not 'surnames' in western sense, they actually say whose son you are :p

Namikaze_17
04-27-2015, 12:17 AM
That Assassin talking to her sounds familiar. I can't recall where I've heard it.


I'm guessing the scene is years later as Shao looks a bit older.



Yes, it's culture and languages, and in the culture we're talking about, if Altair's father name was Umar, he'd be Altair ibn Umar, because that's how it works in that culture. If he's son of Umar than it says he's son of Umar. Those are not 'surnames' in western sense, they actually say whose son you are :p

You know, I never paid attention to the 'Umar' remark.

But I admit it does make Altair seem inconsistent.

pacmanate
04-27-2015, 12:21 AM
Yes, it's culture and languages, and in the culture we're talking about, if Altair's father name was Umar, he'd be Altair ibn Umar, because that's how it works in that culture. If he's son of Umar than it says he's son of Umar.

Actually, Altair spawned from a bird egg.
#sonofnone

Mr.Black24
04-27-2015, 12:27 AM
Yes, it's culture and languages, and in the culture we're talking about, if Altair's father name was Umar, he'd be Altair ibn Umar, because that's how it works in that culture. If he's son of Umar than it says he's son of Umar. Those are not 'surnames' in western sense, they actually say whose son you are :p
I know that, but Umar did die, so perhaps since he is dead, he is considered "Son of None". After all, he had a father. That is my guess anyway.


That Assassin talking to her sounds familiar. I can't recall where I've heard it.


I'm guessing the scene is years later as Shao looks a bit older. She becomes Mentor of the Chinese Brotherhood of the Assassin Order, later on in life. He even calls her Mentor. But yeah, I liked how they carried that lesson and the box in a metaphorical way.

Namikaze_17
04-27-2015, 12:30 AM
She becomes Mentor of the Chinese Brotherhood of the Assassin Order, later on in life. He even calls her Mentor. But yeah, I liked how they carried that lesson and the box in a metaphorical way.

Thanks for telling this deaf person that information. :rolleyes:

SixKeys
04-27-2015, 12:36 AM
I know that, but Umar did die, so perhaps since he is dead, he is considered "Son of None". After all, he had a father. That is my guess anyway.

That makes no sense, since Umar is already dead by the time Alta´r introduces himself as "son of Umar". It's also not how Arabic names work.

Mr.Black24
04-27-2015, 12:40 AM
That makes no sense, since Umar is already dead by the time Alta´r introduces himself as "son of Umar". It's also not how Arabic names work.Well the guy did ask Altair to who he was, so just to clarify things, Altair mentioned that his dad is Umar, for clarity's sake. Perhaps to avoid something like this:

"I am Altair"
"Altair....?"
*groans*
"Son of Umar"
"AHHHHHH Umar!!"

But yeah, I know how Arabic names don't work that way.

Namikaze_17
04-27-2015, 12:41 AM
Guys, it's just a plothole. :p

Mr.Black24
04-27-2015, 12:43 AM
Guys, it's just a plothole. :p
I know.

As OP's comment on the state of the lore.....

Normally I would say that it is a hint that leads to something big, that will cause people to generate threads of debate on how this plays out. However that would have been said for a series that actually has closed character arcs, completed story arcs, constant continuity, and an actual resolution....

Plus my spoiler on my last post had shown that the Box was meant for something different for Shao in that point of time. As for the lore...

Dude, at this point, I am close on giving up on the lore. I mean we have 4 games with incomplete character arcs, business, and lame cliffhangers, all that had great promises that only leads to nowhere. Add to the fact that the Precursor Disks that Aveline found is never further explored, nor mentioned, and the fact that Shay's use of Box is left out too. Why does it lead to the Precursor Trees? What are the Precursor Trees? Why do they exist, and for what purpose? And will the 18th American and/or Modern Templars use them? Will the 18th American and/or Modern Assassins stop them, or use them too somehow?

I can literally go on and on, but I have repeated myself so many times that not only that is painfully annoying, but generally upsetting. I know people are tired of me mentioning the Box, Disk, Connor/Arno/Shay/Aveline, actual MD story arc, and ect, but .....ehhhhh.....I'm going to lay down....

Namikaze_17
04-27-2015, 12:53 AM
^ All these incomplete arcs and unanswered questions are growing like wildfire huh? :rolleyes:

ze_topazio
04-27-2015, 01:40 AM
The box is a piece of eden of sorts, pieces of eden can be useful, Ezio maybe had no idea how the box worked but it was still a piece of eden, so he gave her the box hoping she could discover how to make it work if necessary.

Then we remember that Ezio was an old man and maybe his brain was no longer what it used to be and he gave her that useless box thinking he was doing her a favor, or maybe he forgot to put the automatic AK-47 built by Leonardo from some extra secret blueprints left behind by Altair.

Maybe...

SixKeys
04-27-2015, 02:14 AM
Then we remember that Ezio was an old man and maybe his brain was no longer what it used to be and he gave her that useless box thinking he was doing her a favor, or maybe he forgot to put the automatic AK-47 built by Leonardo from some extra secret blueprints left behind by Altair.


Lol, I like this theory.

Mr.Black24
04-27-2015, 04:26 AM
^ All these incomplete arcs and unanswered questions are growing like wildfire huh? :rolleyes:*grumble*....is not my fault I'm a story person....

Namikaze_17
04-27-2015, 04:29 AM
*grumble*....is not my fault I'm a story person....

I'm sure all story fans are disappointed... :rolleyes:




as am i...

VestigialLlama4
04-27-2015, 05:00 AM
I'm sure all story fans are disappointed... :rolleyes:




as am i...

Well it depends on what we mean by stories. For me the stories are the characters and historical parts. The overarching story, the MD lor, Juno/Aita and whatnot is essentially stuff that's there to give the games a start and stop point, its not something, that to me, is as important as the games themselves.

In Black Flag, Edward Kenway's story is kind of unimportant lore-wise. Okay we know about the Sage, but there are sages in other periods too, so its not all that essential, you could probably insert UNITY with the MD of Black Flag and the final twist would probably have the same effect. The Observatory is kind of useless (and UNITY-HELIX tells us that it was destroyed when Otso Berg landed there) and it doesn't further anything Juno-wise. Indeed you can say that lore-wise Black Flag's MD is more relevant than the historical part. The historical part though has Edward's story of Pirate, the Nassau Community, Mary Read, Adewale. The Sage part is awesome in that Black Bart is simultaneously a Sage and Black Bart.

Even AC3, the amulet that Haytham collects (which the utterly pointless prologue builds up and has Haytham shrug and say, "You know what I'm just going to be an ordinary puppetmaster villain instead of finding some magic card that will solve my problems") and Juno's vision-quest to Connor, its there just to set-up the plot and start the show and give Connor a totally minor, meaningless video game goal (which he points to Juno is minor and meaningless). Most of the game is actually a fairly naturalist historical fiction saga. In many ways its closer to AC1, where the games had a strong sense of realism (MD excluded) and then the finale gave us a classic video game boss-fight. Even UNITY, which fails utterly on many levels, at least stayed true to that, its naturalist for the most part.

I personally think this kind of laidback approach is better, it makes each game have its internal consistency.

wvstolzing
04-28-2015, 09:46 PM
EDIT: I think it's pretty safe to say that Victory will be about a Sage, those are the guys the meta-narrative seems to be about AC4 onwards until whichever arc we're in ends.

*Stops*, more like.

ACZanius
04-28-2015, 11:56 PM
Just finished AC:C China, i loved it, i love this new take on AC, i'm ready for India and Russia, ok now to the point, i also really dislike these incomplete story arcs with passion. However i think it's safe to say that the BOX is not same box that Ezio gave to Shao Jun because it makes no sense whatsoever the way he said to her in AC: Embers therefore again the logical conclusion is, THE BOX is not the same BOX. As for the people who are troubled by the story **** that has been happening in past 2-3 years, i'm never gonna give up completely on the lore but this is gonna go for 10 years +, they will feed us minor irrelevant stuff every year. i am honestly not HYPED for Victory since my expectation is that they will disregard modern day like they did in Unity. I stand super high with RinoTheBouncer regarding Modern Day, i want it back in true and epic form third person action killing modern day templars but the box is really weird thing now. They better get their **** together because i never thought this certain situation with stories historical and modern day would become such mess.

Xstantin
04-29-2015, 12:07 AM
However i think it's safe to say that the BOX is not same box that Ezio gave to Shao Jun because it makes no sense whatsoever the way he said to her in AC: Embers therefore again the logical conclusion is, THE BOX is not the same BOX

So, the writers just decided to put TWO boxes to make it even more confusing??? The games already had plenty of Apples to begin with, now it's gonna be boxes too

Farlander1991
04-29-2015, 12:14 AM
It's the same box. It says so in the very first (or maybe second) cutscene - the Precursor Box that Ezio gave to Shao Jun.

ACZanius
04-29-2015, 12:17 AM
Yeah it's a high possibility that that is the case KEVT2011 because this is not first thing that is weird, same could be said for Shay not appearing in AC3 1776 - 1783 while being aware of Connor ( The thing is that Rogue didn't even exist when Ac3 was finished so yeah) but back to the point if writers keep creating these weird holes they better make sure to fix it in future because this is just another thing that makes no sense.


Farlander hi man lol, i am sure that it's not same box because at very beginning when Ezio says to Shao Jun open it only if you loose your way, makes no sense with the BOX in Freedom Cry/Rogue it's a First Civ tech that projects maps of other first civ machines/locations that can cause earthquakes. I hope Darby McDevitt and Richard Fareese were in contact when this went down because Darby didn't wrote Rogue so yeah there's that.

Farlander1991
04-29-2015, 12:28 AM
The fact that it makes no sense is why this thread exists, but it's the same box.
"She carries a Precursor artifact, given to her by Ezio Auditore" - that's the quote directly from the game, from the very beginning, when there's just the text. And the point is repeated several times throughout the game.

ACZanius
04-29-2015, 12:32 AM
Dude, yeah it is the same box in Chronicles China but confusion starts with Rogue and later :cool:

SixKeys
04-29-2015, 12:46 AM
So, the writers just decided to put TWO boxes to make it even more confusing??? The games already had plenty of Apples to begin with, now it's gonna be boxes too

https://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5z3wyib9e1rz4uwxo1_500.gif

Farlander1991
04-29-2015, 12:51 AM
Dude, yeah it is the same box in Chronicles China but confusion starts with Rogue and later :cool:

No it doesn't, Darby confirmed that the box in Freedom Cry is the one from Embers when FC was released, and as far as we know the one in Rogue is the same as FC, so it's all the same box. Everywhere.

ACZanius
04-29-2015, 01:11 AM
You're right bro, in that case i can assume that is story inconsistencies because what Ezio says's to Shao Jun makes no sense for what the box is/does in Rouge, i rest my case and lost even more hope for the lore. If they are trying to pull this tactic to deliberately make fans hate modern day and big plots so they can go fully with "unity filler style game" they are doing a great job.

SixKeys
04-29-2015, 01:17 AM
If they are trying to pull this tactic to deliberately make fans hate modern day and big plots so they can go fully with "unity filler style game" they are doing a great job.

http://i-cms.lejdn.fr/image_cms/300/1281457-les-salaires-des-patrons-du-sbf-120-en-2011.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hzaJ4Hn.png

ACZanius
04-29-2015, 01:21 AM
Strong post Sixkeys

PS: Just sent ya Steam invite, accept me lol

Namikaze_17
04-29-2015, 03:04 AM
https://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5z3wyib9e1rz4uwxo1_500.gif

Haha, post of the day right here.