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View Full Version : Death by T-Stoft - The Me163



fluke39
03-26-2004, 04:47 AM
well of all the planes i flown from the AEP so far i have to say the Me163 is fast becoming a favourite of mine(shame about the ground start bug) Its not the kind of thing i'd fly online (unless in a co-op type mission)
, it's SOOOOO fast and handles really fine too - (in fact im sure you can fly straight up until you almost leave the planet!!)
all in all it's really FUN to fly.

i was getting into thinking i was untouchable in the 163 until this morning, when i took a hit in the fuel tank - i thought not much of it (as you usually do in prop planes), then i noticed my pilot was injured - funny, i thought - i can't remember my pilot being hit, then he slowly got injured more, and promptly died! bugger i thought..... must be some kind of bug .. then i put 2 and 2 together - and realised the truth... the poor bugger was slowly being dissolved by the rocket fuel from the fuel tank leak !!! excellent! (not for my pilot though!!) i've said it before and i'll say it again - these attention to little details are one of the main reasons this sim stands out miles and miles above every other game/sim - nice one Oleg!!

has anyone else noticed any little details that have come with AEP?

http://mysite.freeserve.com/angels_one_five/flukelogo.jpg

fluke39
03-26-2004, 04:47 AM
well of all the planes i flown from the AEP so far i have to say the Me163 is fast becoming a favourite of mine(shame about the ground start bug) Its not the kind of thing i'd fly online (unless in a co-op type mission)
, it's SOOOOO fast and handles really fine too - (in fact im sure you can fly straight up until you almost leave the planet!!)
all in all it's really FUN to fly.

i was getting into thinking i was untouchable in the 163 until this morning, when i took a hit in the fuel tank - i thought not much of it (as you usually do in prop planes), then i noticed my pilot was injured - funny, i thought - i can't remember my pilot being hit, then he slowly got injured more, and promptly died! bugger i thought..... must be some kind of bug .. then i put 2 and 2 together - and realised the truth... the poor bugger was slowly being dissolved by the rocket fuel from the fuel tank leak !!! excellent! (not for my pilot though!!) i've said it before and i'll say it again - these attention to little details are one of the main reasons this sim stands out miles and miles above every other game/sim - nice one Oleg!!

has anyone else noticed any little details that have come with AEP?

http://mysite.freeserve.com/angels_one_five/flukelogo.jpg

TinkerToy__
03-26-2004, 05:17 AM
I agree totally - the 163 is an animal. It's speed is unbelieveable you have to give yourself a log run in towards the bombers in order to give yourself a chance to aim http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I was wondering - I have a X-45 and is the 163 engine a on-off job or can you set it to 30%-60% or whatever? It seemed to be jumping all over the shop when I was flying last night.
Ooh, and the smoke trail looks great! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Later
TT.

dahdah
03-26-2004, 05:27 AM
The Me.163.A used the Walter RII-203 motor. Hydrogen peroxide (T-Stoff) was used as the fuel oxidised by a potassium permanganate solution, known as Z-Stoff. Potassium permangante has a characteristic livid violet colour, and once the Me.163A was in motion, the exhaust plume of the motor was a purple trail.
[Messerschmitt Me.163A V1]

Left is a diagramme of the RII-203 "controllable" motor, which is taken from a paper Hellmuth Walter wrote after the war. Compressed air from the bottle (1) drives T-Stoff from a reserve tank for starting (2), via a control valve (12) to the steam generator (9). Steam produced here is led to the turbine of the fuel pump (T) driving it round.

In the RII-203, both reactants were fed to the reaction chamber by a duplex fuel pump. The fuel pump was driven by the steam generator. On the RI-211 Me.163 prototype unit, at starting, compressed air was used to mix T-Stoff and liquid Z-Stoff in a reaction vessel to produce the steam needed. However over time, this caused fouling of the steam generator by maganese dioxide sludge requiring frequent maintenance. So by the time of the RII-203, only T-Stoff was fed to the steam generator, with catalyst stones being used to decompose it to steam.

The fuel pump (8) draws T-Stoff (P1) from the tanks and Z-Stoff (P2) to mix in the combustion chamber (4). Other features in the diagramme are the drains, fuel control valves and emergency trip valves necessary for a safe system.


| Top of Page | | Back to Walter Motor Page |


The pneumatic system allowed the pilot to be able to control the flow of fuel and so the power output of the motor. However, although experienced pilots were able to manage this system, it proved difficult for pupil pilots, who's coarse controlling movements led to hunting in the flow and poor performance characteristics. The compressed air system was also time consuming and costly to service.
[Walter RII-203]

In the illustration on the left, showing crews engaged in servicing an Me.163A, you can just make out the steam generator on the left, with the silver bolts holding the heavy steel lid in place. To the right of that is a small stainless steel or aluminium pressure vessel, which is probably the starting tank of T-Stoff. There are few other details visible.

Delays in the production of the "hot" motor, and the delays in production of the Model "B" airframe, led to the Me.163A and its motor continuing in training and service far longer than necessary. Despite its problems, it was persisted with rather than developed, in the knowledge that a better alternative was due before long.

From the photograph of the Me.163A at the top of the page, you can see that the RII-203 reaction chamber has a very long exhaust gas tube, in order to keep hot gases clear of the airframe. This led to a lesser performance than could be expected from this type of motor.

http://www.walter-rockets.i12.com/walter/pix/rii203dg.jpg

http://www.walter-rockets.i12.com/walter/me163a.htm



Fluke looks like the bulkhead did not do its job.

TinkerToy, that is not smoke but steam.

tfu_iain1
03-26-2004, 05:27 AM
engine has 4 settings

off
35%
65%
100%

when flying 163 i dont use my throttle slider anymore, just the plus minus keys... all you need and actually it makes setting the throttle on the rocket more precise

dahdah
03-26-2004, 05:32 AM
Operation
Running a Walter 109-509.A-1 Motor. [Walter Logo]
Starting

Within the cockpit, the pilot pushes the throttle forward, from the closed, to the starting position. This aligns an aperture in the throttle quadrant, which uncovers a starting button. The pilot presses this button to initiate ignition of the motor.
[Komet Throttle Quadrant]

On Walter 109-509.A-1 motors, this activates an electrical starter motor which turns, via a gear train in the accessories unit, the shaft of the main fuel pump: (on the ground, a trolley accumulator is used to provide the electrical power necessary). Both fluid pumps share a common drive shaft, and the helical sections of each pump create a suction pressure which draws fluid from the fuselage and wing tanks.

T-Stoff is bled from its pump and fed into the steam generator. Here it is sprayed onto the catalyst-bearing stones, decomposing and generating large amounts of steam. The steam is channelled directly to the central turbine of the fuel pump, causing it to spin up the pump more rapidly. The waste steam from the turbine is exhausted directly overboard from the underside of the fuselage centre-line through a short pipe. Some steam is led down into the combustion chamber and exits directly from the motor venturi. The purpose of this is to blow out any fuels which may have pooled in the bottom of the combustion chamber, to prevent any uncontrolled, or premature detonation of the first main fuel flow, once idling is exceeded.
[Trolley Accumulator and Komet Starting]

As the revolutions of the fuel pump increase, T-Stoff flow is automatically regulated to keep the pump turbine spinning at the correct speed - the electric starter motor is disengaged. C-Stoff is drawn from the fuel tanks and fed to the cooling jacket of the double-walled combustion chamber. Returned fuel is then pumped back into the fuel tanks.

Within the cockpit, the Pilot will be following the operation of the turbine speed indicator. When it reaches 6,000 rpm the throttle is moved fully forward through the power setting stops to full power, take-off position.


| Top of Page | | Back to Design Page |

Take Off

From idling, when no liquids are delivered to the combustion chamber, on application of further throttle movement, C-Stoff fuel is pumped to the injectors which spray it into the combustion chamber.

As the pilot's throttle is moved, a rotating sleeve in the fuel flow control device opens ports connected to each of the power output stages. This bleeds C-Stoff fuel flow into pistons which are linked to transmit their force onto similar pistons in the T-Stoff fluid circuit. Movement of the second pistons regulates the pressure of the flow of the peroxide to the injectors in the combustion chamber. The design arrangement of the pistons is such that the correct proportions of liquids are automatically delivered. Increases in fuel flow cause a corresponding increase in the flow of peroxide until an equilibrium between the flow of the two liquids is once more reached.

The direct action of the pistons from one fluid flow into the other is a very efficient method of regulating flow. But with the reactivity of the peroxide fuel and the dire consequences of the two fuels mixing inappropriately, the machining tolerances of the motor parts were very high indeed.
[Komet Engine Running]

At the combustion chamber head, are a series of twelve injectors. Each injector is a double jet type. On the inside the peroxide is passed through a screw thread swirler and atomised as it leaves the orifice. Around this the C-Stoff fuel enters a whirlpool chamber through a tangential orifice and then out through a small annular gap surrounding the peroxide vapour, so that it comes into intimate contact with the T-Stoff and the chemical reaction takes place.

"Throttle forward until the start button was visible! My index finger pushed through the hole in the throttle quadrant and the fuel pumps began whirling. After a few seconds the drive for the vapour generator cut in. Outside, the ground power unit, with its long power cable, disappeared from view. A small movement forward with the throttle and the engine sprung to life. I could hear the combustion chamber as the noise cut in through the earphones in my protective hood. As the fuel ignited, the aircraft shuddered slightly and the fuselage rocked forward from the initial burst of thrust from the engine...
[Thrust Indicators]

At this point, the chamber pressure must have already been between five and eight atu. A look at the indicator on the front instrument panel, over my right knee, confirmed that I was right in my estimation. Another indicator about the same size showed that the combustion temperature was also in the normal area... 'Two-three-four-five' I counted and smoothly moved the throttle forward with my left hand, over the two rests between the first, second and third levels.

The rocket howled and pushed the bird ... over the three-inch-high wooden chocks blocking the wheels with a tremendous force."

http://www.walter-rockets.i12.com/design/operate.htm

TinkerToy__
03-26-2004, 06:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tfu_iain1:
engine has 4 settings

off
35%
65%
100%

when flying 163 i dont use my throttle slider anymore, just the plus minus keys... all you need and actually it makes setting the throttle on the rocket more precise<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah that explains it ... Ta http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tsisqua
03-26-2004, 07:06 AM
I believe that Me163 pilot, Rudy Opitz, could probably tell us all about those chemicals.

http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/articles/me163/me163_1.asp

"Clothing made of organic material like cotton would burst into flames on contact with T-Stoff."

Tsisqua

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/tsisqua-nedChristie.jpg
Tsalagi Asgaya Galvladi

diomedes33
03-26-2004, 07:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fluke39:
then i put 2 and 2 together - and realised the truth... the poor bugger was slowly being dissolved by the rocket fuel from the fuel tank leak !!! excellent! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Awesome. I was wondering if this was modeled. I read a story once of the pilot getting disolved in his seat on take off.

http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

p1ngu666
03-26-2004, 09:05 AM
lovely stuff isnt it :|
imagine what it would be like as a weapon http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

georgeo76
03-26-2004, 11:08 AM
Thanks Fluke, that's a lovely image http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

To the bombers over Germany, the Comet must have been an awesome sight. But I'm willing to bet that no one was more frightened than the 163's pilot.

______________________
Fiend (http://webpages.charter.net/Stick_Fiend)

zoomar2
03-26-2004, 11:24 AM
I hadn't noticed and I hope you are right. I too think the Me-163 is so fast and capable that its many shortcomings (dangerous landings, explosive, caustic fuel, short endurance, slow firing cannon, and almost too fast speed) have been undermodelled. I'm glad to know you can melt yourself.

BerkshireHunt
03-26-2004, 11:37 AM
What we need- and what the game doesn't have- is a pilot figure for the 163 wearing white asbestos coveralls. The fuel was so noxious and corrosive that to have any chance of surviving a burst tank every inch of flesh had to be covered up. So pilots also wore asbestos gauntlets and a head mask with a glass visor- through which they peered. In addition, an oxygen mask was worn at all times to prevent fumes entering their lungs.
Lets hope someone does an appropriate skin.

pik_as
03-26-2004, 01:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zoomar2:
I hadn't noticed and I hope you are right. I too think the Me-163 is so fast and capable that its many shortcomings (dangerous landings, explosive, caustic fuel, short endurance, slow firing cannon, and almost too fast speed) have been undermodelled. I'm glad to know you can melt yourself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Undermodelled? I'm not too sure about that. I've gotten to 28,800 m of altitude, and only then did I lose lift. I've also gone beyond Vne in a glide; 2000 km/h and she blows up....actually, I wasn't looking at the ASI at that point, but it was certainly more than the real ones were rated for.