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RetiredRonin
04-22-2015, 05:32 PM
I never thought the day would come, but I guess I’m jumping ahead. Let me back up, restart and do this the right way.

http://static9.cdn.ubi.com/resource/en-US/game/dev update_news_200510.jpg

Welcome to another Trials Fusion Dev Update. I’m your host, ShiftySamurai, and today we are going to be talking about an upcoming change to Trials Fusion. This is a change that has been requested by a branch of the hardest of the hardcore, the skillsiest of the skilled and the ninjaist of ninjas.

Since the launch of Trials Fusion we have had some fairly strict guidelines about how we handle cross-platform user generated content for Trials Fusion. Now with Fusion entering it’s second year we have been given a bit more freedom in how we can share tracks with players on different consoles, which results in us being able to….

Cross-Platform Ninja Tracks.

This will not be an immediate change and we would like the help of the Ninja Community so let’s talk a little about the details and how ninja players can help us make this a reality.

Some general information;

First things first, I know what some of you ninjas are thinking. You think that we are bad at Trials and bad at Ninja tracks, so there is no way that we should be selecting what is cross-platformed when it comes to Ninja tracks. There’s probably a bit of truth in there somewhere (except we rock at Trials, by the way) but we do agree that nobody knows Ninja tracks like the Ninja Community so cross-platform Ninja tracks will be selected by the Trials Ninja Community. Think of this as “Community Choice”, we’ll set up a nominations thread on the forums (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1076660-Cross-Platform-Ninja-Track-Nominations-Thread?) and will be looking over what you suggest. If it meets some quality standards, then it might just be made into frustra… sorry, it might just be made available for everyone to have fun crashing on… repeatedly.

Ninja tracks will need to conform to some visual quality standards. We will not use the same standards we use for Uplay Recommended but we also won’t be sharing that Ninja track that is made up of boxes floating in front of a white prime wall in the background.

What will we do if you guys request 20 Ninja tracks a day? There has to be a limit on how many can be done in a timeframe. We haven’t determined what that number will be but keep in mind these will be in addition to the weekly drops we already do, so the number will not be large. If the Ninja Community nominates a ton of great ninja tracks, then we’ll have to implement community votes.

Ninja tracks will NOT be placed in the Uplay Recommended feed. As we have stated in the past this feed is for tracks we are recommending to the whole Trials community. The number of players who can complete Ninja tracks is still far too small for us to recommend these tracks to the entire Trials player base. For now there will not be curated ninja feed on Track Central. Cross platform ninja tracks will appear in the ninja feeds now present on Track Central.

Another thing we feel is very important is that the Ninja community comes up with a general consensus as to what constitutes each tier of Ninja track. Not only will this help us in the selection process but it will also assist players who are interested in testing their skills on these tracks for the first time.

This brings me to something that needs to be discussed with the Ninja community. Ninja tracks are hard, incredibly difficult tracks that many people cannot complete. There seems to be a notion by some within the Ninja community that unless you can complete a certain level of Ninja track then you are no good at Trials. This is not a good thing for the Ninja community. We all enjoy watching players beast a Ninja track, but we also want to see more encouragement for players on the forums, as well as other outlets, and to see this portion of the community grow. Who doesn’t want more ninjas? Maybe pirates, I guess.

The Trials Community Team has been throwing around the term “Ninja Community Ambassador”, and it’s pretty much what it sounds like. It is community members who inspire, assist and advocate for Ninja tracks and players in a positive manner. As proven by quite a few threads on the forums you are already passionate about these tracks, so why not allow that passion to help your community grow? Worst case scenario, you annoy a few people and nothing changes. Best case scenario, new players, new tracks, and more competition and content for the Ninja Community to enjoy.

How do you become a Ninja Community Ambassador (complete with forum title)? We’ll be putting some info together in the future, but we’ll also be keeping our eyes open on social media and on the forums for active, passionate and positive members within the Ninja Community.

That was a lot more than I expected to write, so we’ll go ahead and end this Dev Update. Until next time, Ninjas.

-Shifty

Hairy Cabbage
04-22-2015, 05:54 PM
Amazing news.

Zurgery
04-22-2015, 06:00 PM
https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/41/1.0

Haarmes
04-22-2015, 06:07 PM
these news are like 10+/10

JoeRegular
04-22-2015, 06:40 PM
Long time coming but very cool indeed :)

StormPsykoz
04-22-2015, 06:44 PM
Yes

yes

yes

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

BiG_SH0T_ROB
04-22-2015, 06:47 PM
:cool::cool::cool:

Steiner84
04-22-2015, 07:10 PM
very very cool!

regarding the level: will you guys then state the level in the track description or what is planned?
the whole leveling system is kinda, yeah, fluent..
basically there are 2 groups of people. one thinks there are levels 1-5, the other thinks what once was a level 5 and deemed impossible is now a piece of cake for some players. like sub 10f. if max level is kept at five there is a rather large difference between some 5s.. some people allready think there are level 7 tracks out now or coming.

Hairy Cabbage
04-22-2015, 07:32 PM
It is a shame that there isnt going to be something like an "approved ninja" feed or something along those lines. it will be a shame to see the tracks voted in by the community just dumped into a pool of (lets face it) mainly junk to fall to the depths of the abyss like any regular track.

pad3
04-22-2015, 07:36 PM
Great news!

It should provide the Ninjja community a nice way to unify, and give us more quality tracks to play.

Also agree about the level system. It is actually very unaccurate and irregular. It would be for the best if RL could assist best ninja players to build a solid system; as this game type really need it, especially for player progression.

Btw, thank you RL. ;)

VEGASTRASH
04-22-2015, 08:25 PM
Ninjas with good decor. Always welcomed.

aMcConghie16
04-23-2015, 01:35 AM
I started a thread a month ago or so asking for someone to give a breakdown of what makes each ninja level? Maybe the ambassador whoever that's going to be could do it. I think dj said there used to be a guy for trials HD but doesn't do it anymore? I wonder if ghetto should do it be the ambassador or BIGSHOTROB? I'm glad RL is updating and continues to make fusion better I love trials:)

Also I hope this isn't a dumb question I think I read the thread correctlly but will these tracks be being added to 360? As a side note when are the last two DLC ninja tracks being added to track central?

IXI Satch IXI
04-23-2015, 02:20 AM
Great news. I'm totally new to ninjas so I would like to see some nice looking lvl 1's and 2's :)

pArA8D
04-23-2015, 05:42 AM
Very happy to see this surprise news! Nice one!

BiG_SH0T_ROB
04-23-2015, 08:28 AM
I wonder if ghetto should do it be the ambassador or BIGSHOTROB? I'm glad RL is updating and continues to make fusion better I love trials:)

Thanks. I would be honored but i would decline the position.
I can't pass a level 5 ninja track and i am not familiar with advanced ninja techniques like backwards bunnyhop and all that fun stuff.
Im also pretty bad at climbing ninja hills.
I do consider myself a Ninja at this point though.
I mean i have zero faulted several level 2's in Evo & Fusion and im good at speed running level 1's.
I just never took the time and attempted to get better at ninjas. I love going for zero faults, getting 300+ faults while trying super hard
on high level ninja tracks is not my idea of a good time. So im good where im at.

The ambassador will be judging track difficulty levels so imo it has to be someone who can pass all ninjas.
There are only a few of those players.
I nominate ghetto, grief and shane. I think only shane plays fusion regularly.
So my vote would go to shane but im not sure if he is up to it or if he even wants it.
And of course to be an ambassador you need to have an inclusive, humble and positive attitude.

Edit: Or someone from the french community.
I think the ninja community is made up of over half french players.
Ideally a french player who can speak decent english.
I would say aBzxMaGiiK but he has quit the game.

Hairy Cabbage
04-23-2015, 03:12 PM
.So my vote would go to shane but im not sure if he is up to it or if he even wants it.
And of course to be an ambassador you need to have an inclusive, humble and positive attitude.

Well..... there goes that idea Kappa

RetiredRonin
04-23-2015, 04:08 PM
The ambassador will be judging track difficulty levels so imo it has to be someone who can pass all ninjas.

Nope. This is why we are looking at the community to come up with guidelines as to how Ninja tracks are rated. It shouldn't be that subjective. Some skills are more difficult than others, and I would assume these can be used for rating.

As an example: If a track requires a fender grab, then it is higher difficulty than an extreme regardless of the difficulty of the rest of the track. The hardest obstacle sets the difficulty level and the rest of the track should "ramp up" to that difficulty or at least be fairly consistent.

That's MY opinion (and Shogun's), but it is how we usually determine difficulty of tracks. It WILL take quite a few of the Ninja riders to get together and bang their heads against the wall to decide upon, but having a flexible system where all difficulties can change overnight depending on how a person builds another track isn't a workable solution. These guidelines should be 99% applicable to any new track.

And yes, it is a daunting task.

Cardinal_FpS
04-23-2015, 07:12 PM
Can't wait for this!

PS: Gargantua should be cross-platformed. ;)

Steiner84
04-24-2015, 07:15 AM
Nope. This is why we are looking at the community to come up with guidelines as to how Ninja tracks are rated. It shouldn't be that subjective. Some skills are more difficult than others, and I would assume these can be used for rating.

As an example: If a track requires a fender grab, then it is higher difficulty than an extreme regardless of the difficulty of the rest of the track. The hardest obstacle sets the difficulty level and the rest of the track should "ramp up" to that difficulty or at least be fairly consistent.

That's MY opinion (and Shogun's), but it is how we usually determine difficulty of tracks. It WILL take quite a few of the Ninja riders to get together and bang their heads against the wall to decide upon, but having a flexible system where all difficulties can change overnight depending on how a person builds another track isn't a workable solution. These guidelines should be 99% applicable to any new track.

And yes, it is a daunting task.

im extremly curious how this turns out.

Smilies2019
04-24-2015, 07:46 AM
cross platforming ninja's is a great addon.
However, people are discussing for years what makes a ninja level a ninja level.
What makes it a level 2, or even a EASY level 2.

Personaly i would only cross platform doable ninja's with good decoration.
Else it would only be a trials game for Super ninja riders. Wich isnt realy fair of those who want to learn to become a ninja rider.

Im not a guy who spend 30min on 1 checkpoint because it's to hard for me.

So to judge ninja tracks, i go with skill, and no luck based ninja's (like bounce into fendergrab) the pit viper needs luck on those combo's
And how wil a ninja ambassador choose tracks? doesnt he need all consoles?

If the ambassador only plays on xb1, then he only wil choose xb1 tracks (correct me if i'm wrong)

BiG_SH0T_ROB
04-24-2015, 11:10 AM
Okay Shifty, thanks for clearing that up.




As an example: If a track requires a fender grab, then it is higher difficulty than an extreme regardless of the difficulty of the rest of the track. The hardest obstacle sets the difficulty level and the rest of the track should "ramp up" to that difficulty or at least be fairly consistent.

Exactly.
The things i value most in a track are driving line, decoration and consistency of obstacles AND driving line.



Personaly i would only cross platform doable ninja's with good decoration.
Else it would only be a trials game for Super ninja riders. Wich isnt realy fair of those who want to learn to become a ninja rider.

+1
Im not objective here though since im a fan of "easy" ninjas.
Im not against cross platforming level 4 and 5's, but just know it will only benefit a handfull of people.

pArA8D
04-24-2015, 11:55 AM
Here are some ninja resources that might be useful in determining levels and whatnot.
https://sites.google.com/site/fusionninjalist/home
https://sites.google.com/site/evoninjalist/home

ConfusedMuscles
04-24-2015, 12:58 PM
cross platforming ninja's is a great addon.

If the ambassador only plays on xb1, then he only wil choose xb1 tracks (correct me if i'm wrong)

False. If an ambassador is on X1 he would actually have more incentive to get tracks from other consoles ported as he would already have access to the X1 tracks.

IBlubbiI
04-24-2015, 04:16 PM
False. If an ambassador is on X1 he would actually have more incentive to get tracks from other consoles ported as he would already have access to the X1 tracks.

I think that wasn`t what smilies wanted to say. If the ambassador is on X1 he can only test tracks from X1 and therefore only recommend these to get crossplatformed since most people don`t own more than one console. Unless one ambassador is playing on all 4 platforms this system would require more than one to do the job.

PloosKy
04-24-2015, 05:21 PM
I think this is is a good idea, however there is a problem. I have already gone over this on forums before. Ninja levels vary based on peoples opinion. It's hard to ever come to a concrete decision. I think there is definitely a way to do this, but, it shouldn't rely too much on the current ninja rating specifically. There are certain ninjas that are just corss-plat worthy. As long as the ambassadors can come across an agreement in a logical way we won't have problems :) Even if this means thinking in a different way. I know some people don't like this idea so if they agree on keeping the old system them so be it. There are plenty of ninja track lists online on website that can be used for reference as well. This update is going to be extremely awesome for ninjas! Let's all make the best of it. Also, it would be nice to have ambassadors from each console, but even though some people don't play the other consoles, even I know most of the PS4 tracks just from watching so much twitch Kapp... almost said it :(

En0-
04-24-2015, 07:05 PM
A few ideas thrown here, you do what you want with it.


This one has been shared by Shifty on the stream tonight. To be able to set level 1/2/3/4/5 in game on ninja tracks, you could use difficulty level and the ninja tag. So a "beginner" ninja would be a level one, a "easy" ninja would be a level 2, a "medium" ninja level 3, a "hard" ninja level 4 and an "extreme" ninja would be a level 5.


About agreeing on what makes a ninja level 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5, if I'd do hit, I'd just screenshot/record a lot of obstacles and order them with other people in order of difficulty (you could even setup a quick website with that, facemash-like). At the end, you could draw a line to say "all this obstacles are level 1", "these ones 2", etc... at the end the level of the track would be the level of its hardest obstacle. Then when a builder would like to set his difficulty level, he would try to see in which categories he thinks his obstacles are and could set appropriately.

Just my 2 cents, do what you want ;-)

fleskeknoke
04-25-2015, 12:57 PM
I'd just screenshot/record a lot of obstacles and order them with other people in order of difficulty (you could even setup a quick website with that, facemash-like). At the end, you could draw a line to say "all this obstacles are level 1", "these ones 2", etc... at the end the level of the track would be the level of its hardest obstacle.


that has crossed my mind too En0 but i dont think obstacles alone can define a level.
there is more than often a combination of obstacles to reach a ceckpoint.
a combo of lets say two or three lv1 obstacles could mean that a certain cp is in fact a lvl2 (for me)
because of the altered position and speed you enter the final obstacles in,
and that is again higly subjective i would think. its not easy this.....

but i agree that rating single obstacles would be helpful anyway

En0-
04-26-2015, 11:38 AM
Hi Fleskeknoke,

What I mean by obstacle is actually more than an obstacle, it's anything you have to do that you can't stop the bike in the middle, so a succession of different individual obstacles is still "one obstacle" in my mind :)

Cheers,

Eaazzyyy
04-27-2015, 06:06 PM
Oh man, this is amazing news. All of my nagging paid off!

aMcConghie16
04-30-2015, 12:54 AM
I didn't know where to post this but being that this is a ninja thread I figured it would apply. So yesterday I was watching a vid on YouTube of the deluge NJ track and I noticed in the RL version the track was a lot brighter than the deluge NJ that was uploaded into track central a few weeks ago. Is there any way this can be fixed?

I'm on 360 not sure if the track is dark on other consoles? The 4th CP is ridiculous you can't even see the barrel your supposed to bounce on. The 6th CP is also really inconsistent due to the lighting.

I'm not sure if you guys can fix it without having to upload a whole new track which will erase the original LB. As another side note I FINALLY beat WOTM NJ it took 374 faults( some of which were me raging lol) and 26 minutes. I'm in last place on the 360 LB lol, but in my opinion it's a huge accomplishment. I've only just started trying NJ tracks in the last few months and I feel my skills have improved dramatically.

I hope we get some new NJ tomorrow I'm assuming that the cross platform of NJs will be on Thursday the same day as UPLAY picks.
Thanks RL !

Smilies2019
04-30-2015, 07:46 AM
Problem with xbox 360 is that its not realy NEXT GEN.
So to fix the crossplatforming tracks, they have to reduce the track objects/view and more to make it compatable for the xb360
Same as they did with the 8 lane supercross Multiplayer, only xb360 has 4 lanes.
So i think you saw another console then xb360 on the youtube video.

aMcConghie16
04-30-2015, 03:36 PM
@Smiles

So I took into account what u said so I went and did some research. first the video on YouTube I watch was from xbox1 and it was the career track or in game track Deluge were when u zero fault the track u can bailout into the portal and you respawn at the beginning where the NJ track begins. So I went ahead and zero faulted deluge bailout at the end and started the NJ track which isn't dark at all. This is on 360 by the way.

So I've come to the conclusion that it has nothing to with last gen next gen Ect. It has to do the track being uploaded to track central being to do whether it was the creator mistake or RL.

Hairy Cabbage
04-30-2015, 04:07 PM
All extreme tracks get darker when you pass through the portal at the end. it could just be this that you are noticing.

aMcConghie16
04-30-2015, 04:47 PM
All extreme tracks get darker when you pass through the portal at the end. it could just be this that you are noticing.

I know what you mean like the inferno 4 track NJ is all dark orange but you can still see the obstacles. Maybe il do a vid comparing the two and how different the track central one is.

Retribution
04-30-2015, 06:56 PM
The problem with awarding Ninja Community Ambassador to someone is that the same people who ARE able to complete mid to high level ninjas are the SAME ones who don't come to this forum anymore, i don't have to state the obvious reason besides the fact that it is dead anyway. And the people who DO come to this place and talk about ninjas are mostly the ones who cant complete anything higher than level 1, maybe 2. They may be able to break down a track based on REPLAYS, but not riding it themselves so whatever it is they have to say would not matter. They can form their own opinions, but pretty much 99% of the people who STILL come here aren't really in position to help new ninjacomers. I don't mean to come across as arrogant but it is just the way it is now. The 'Official' Ninja thread hasn't been revived in god knows how long, simply because we feel indifferent now to the new forum migration and strictly enforced rules.

I can say some ninjas still do Youtube videos, but most aren't really tutorials. The only person i can think of that could be coined that term, would be FatShady for his YT tutorials on a few ninjas. But don't expect any "Ninja Community Ambassadors" to come and devote their time here. HD had Malachyte, Evo had a bunch of people who worked together, but i don't foresee anything happening for Fusion. I hope im wrong tho. Good luck with it.

Edit- I got Shayne unbanned, still chose not to come back here, so don't expect anything from him. Grief will be receiving my old PVR so if he does get back into YT, he could probably do some vids to help others. Ghetto just doesn't care anymore about Trials. DannersMac is also another perfect candidate but he doesn't come here. I could go on and on. And FYI, i don't play ninjas on Fusion so its not like 'oh im so cool that im counting myself out' blah blah.

Smilies2019
05-01-2015, 07:00 AM
The problem with awarding Ninja Community Ambassador to someone is that the same people who ARE able to complete mid to high level ninjas are the SAME ones who don't come to this forum anymore, i don't have to state the obvious reason besides the fact that it is dead anyway. And the people who DO come to this place and talk about ninjas are mostly the ones who cant complete anything higher than level 1, maybe 2. They may be able to break down a track based on REPLAYS, but not riding it themselves so whatever it is they have to say would not matter. They can form their own opinions, but pretty much 99% of the people who STILL come here aren't really in position to help new ninjacomers. I don't mean to come across as arrogant but it is just the way it is now. The 'Official' Ninja thread hasn't been revived in god knows how long, simply because we feel indifferent now to the new forum migration and strictly enforced rules.

I can say some ninjas still do Youtube videos, but most aren't really tutorials. The only person i can think of that could be coined that term, would be FatShady for his YT tutorials on a few ninjas. But don't expect any "Ninja Community Ambassadors" to come and devote their time here. HD had Malachyte, Evo had a bunch of people who worked together, but i don't foresee anything happening for Fusion. I hope im wrong tho. Good luck with it.

Edit- I got Shayne unbanned, still chose not to come back here, so don't expect anything from him. Grief will be receiving my old PVR so if he does get back into YT, he could probably do some vids to help others. Ghetto just doesn't care anymore about Trials. DannersMac is also another perfect candidate but he doesn't come here. I could go on and on. And FYI, i don't play ninjas on Fusion so its not like 'oh im so cool that im counting myself out' blah blah.

Wel said and i totaly agree.

RetiredRonin
05-01-2015, 01:32 PM
Let's clear up the Ninja Community Ambassador and Ninja Cross-platform issue, as some people think that they are completely and intrinsically linked, which they are not.

A Ninja Community Ambassador is going to be someone who helps to grow your community in a positive way. It's not going to be super easy being named one, and it will probably be a bit of work to be one. You'll just need to be positive, encouraging and, well, basically a mentor to newcomers. An Ambassador should want to see the Ninja community grow, and do what they can to facilitate that growth. An Ambassador does not have the power to set difficulty levels to all Ninja tracks that are cross-platformed. While their opinions will be valued when it comes to difficulty, this is the reason why a difficulty overview must be made by the Ninja Community before Ninja tracks will be cross-platformed.

You don't have to be an expert at something to encourage other people. You don't have to be an expert to offer constructive feedback to people building tracks. All you need is time and a willingness to help. If you don't care about Trials, about the community or about helping to get Ninja tracks made cross-platform, then no, you would not be considered as an Ambassador. After all of the requests for this to happen it is a bit disappointing that nobody from this skilled and hardcore section of the community seems willing to put a bit of time into working on it.

People wanted Ninja feeds.
There are Ninja feeds.
People wanted Ninja versions of the Extreme tracks.
There are Ninja versions of the Extreme tracks on Track Central.
People wanted Ninja tracks to be Cross-platformed.
We're working on it, but the next step is 100% up to the community.

This isn't because we think you guys won't do it and we can "blame" it on you (as has been insinuated before), I'm honestly surprised that nobody has bashed out a quick draft of what they think constitutes different levels (I did see the RL Ninja Difficulty Level thread!). I know that this community can do it. I KNOW you can. We didn't invent the Ninjas, we don't run enough of them to take on drafting up a difficulty guide. We would totally mess it up, and since Ninjas came from the community, they are not "ours" to mess with.

This can absolutely be done, but it needs to be done right. We're pretty much ready to go on our end, and we know that you guys can do this. It just comes down to how important it is to you. The feeds are there, the procedures are there, the nominations are there... we just need a stinking guideline.

Haarmes
05-01-2015, 10:31 PM
i would love to see this happen but its still unclear to me what this guideline of different levels means. there isnt really anything in my opinion in the tracks that instantly constitutes them as specific level. if you build a track, and you rotate object 10 degrees, and that 10 degrees can be a diffrence if its a level 1 or level 3. if track has bw fw stuff it can be anywhere from 1-6. if track has overhang it can be anywhere from 1-6. i dont get how we are suppost to do this :(

aMcConghie16
05-02-2015, 03:29 AM
Could we at first not permanently just cross platform levels 1,2,3? If we compare the obstacles to the RL tracks and use them as a base.

This way new comers could start at the low level and work there way up. A year ago I could even pass eye of the storm and I thought inferno 4 was impossible. Today I've got platinum on every track in the career mode including all DLC. With practice and lots of patience anyone with enough determination can improve at anything let alone a video game.

Smilies2019
05-02-2015, 07:20 AM
To ShiftySamurai

In my opinion, there are already Ninja Community Ambassador streaming live on twitch
And they helping to grow the community already.
They getting asked a lot, should i buy this game?

But (i could understand wrong) you're saying ninja should be for beginners only (it is to help beginner ninja riders)
I always wanted to be a ninja rider and the best way to learn is to make them or just doing them.
Make a ninja obstacle in the editor and ride it, or ask someone for an good starter ninja track.
I'm making ninja tracks only (PC) just because i love ninja's ( exept the level 4+)

I would crossplatform ninja tracks by checking leaderboards, if the top has 0 to20 faults, it should be rated a level 1 something like that.
Maybe good idea to start crossplatforming those, (if it is for beginner ninja riders anyway)

Waistless
05-02-2015, 06:56 PM
This isn't because we think you guys won't do it and we can "blame" it on you (as has been insinuated before), I'm honestly surprised that nobody has bashed out a quick draft of what they think constitutes different levels (I did see the RL Ninja Difficulty Level thread!). I know that this community can do it. I KNOW you can. We didn't invent the Ninjas, we don't run enough of them to take on drafting up a difficulty guide. We would totally mess it up, and since Ninjas came from the community, they are not "ours" to mess with.

Anyone attempting write up such a thing would encounter the same issues as yourself: they would be speaking for themselves rather than the ninja community. Even those who have posted in the thread I created are a very small minority of the ninja riders out there, especially some of the more experienced players who got banned from these forums for some reason. \_(ツ)_/

I already posted my general opinion in that thread, but its hard for me to be specific about what constitutes those difficulty steps because a.) There are far better ninja riders out there than myself who can beat tracks that are considered lvl 4 and above (while I struggle with 3s) and b.) I've been playing Trials for less than a year...

And honestly I don't think its that necessary, I think the community would be fine if it were left to the track creators to set the difficulty themselves, if that's the reason you're requesting such details on difficulty levels. So if you're going to cross-plat these ninja tracks and need to mark a difficulty for them somewhere, just ask the creators of those tracks yourselves and if the creators themselves are unsure, they can post in the Ninja Difficulty thread and the community can rate them at that point.

Its just because Ninja is a community-created difficulty as opposed to being Redlynx-created, its too subjective to give an objective answer on difficulty if that makes sense? More of a general guide on how hard it is than being specific.

StormPsykoz
05-03-2015, 11:19 AM
I would crossplatform ninja tracks by checking leaderboards, if the top has 0 to20 faults, it should be rated a level 1 something like that.
Maybe good idea to start crossplatforming those, (if it is for beginner ninja riders anyway)

That wouldn't work well. Quick example : If many ppl grind a level 2 track, we will then have a top from 0 to 20 faults and the track would end level 1.

StormPsykoz
05-05-2015, 12:45 PM
Okay, bringing up new ideas.

On the french Trials forums, we have a global tracklist for all 4 platforms, and there are (sort of) ambassadors moderating each platform. Perhaps we could integrate the same system here ?

A global tracklist on the RL forums
1 or 2 ambassadors for each platform
Each ambassador has to fill up the section he's moderating, and eventually fixing some mistakes in it.

Also, about what Shifty said :


This isn't because we think you guys won't do it and we can "blame" it on you (as has been insinuated before), I'm honestly surprised that nobody has bashed out a quick draft of what they think constitutes different levels (I did see the RL Ninja Difficulty Level thread!). I know that this community can do it. I KNOW you can. We didn't invent the Ninjas, we don't run enough of them to take on drafting up a difficulty guide. We would totally mess it up, and since Ninjas came from the community, they are not "ours" to mess with.

This can absolutely be done, but it needs to be done right. We're pretty much ready to go on our end, and we know that you guys can do this. It just comes down to how important it is to you. The feeds are there, the procedures are there, the nominations are there... we just need a stinking guideline.

I've made a small list of factors that can have their importance on the ninja rating, if that's what you mean : https://sites.google.com/site/fusionntl/home/what-defines-the-level-of-a-track
Or perhaps you mean ninja tutorials ? Because I also have some tutorial tracks about most of the techniques coming up on the track central.

IImayneII
05-05-2015, 01:10 PM
I don't get the ambassador/moderating idea.


The idea should be to prevent track creators from labeling the wrong difficulty to their ninja track, not tagging the proper difficulty afterwards somewhere in a thread. There is litterally no point of having a select few label difficulty of tracks after uploaded. It won't make labeling the difficulty on a ninja track any clearer and most likely the creaters will still not know wich obstacles should be in higher difficulties and will still result in inconsistent difficulty on a track.

I said it before, there should be clear lines of what techniques are linked to what difficulty level. These should be the main guideline for making ninja obstacles

Not a system where a select few label tracks after they are made, but a system used for creating ninja obstacles with the same difficulty. It should be a tool for the creators, not for the riders.

StormPsykoz
05-05-2015, 01:22 PM
I said it before, there should be clear lines of what techniques are linked to what difficulty level. These should be the main guideline for making ninja obstacles

Not a system where a select few label tracks after they are made, but a system used for creating ninja obstacles with the same difficulty. It should be a tool for the creators, not for the riders.

The thing is, ninja techniques can be used anywhere. For example, you can use stationary bunny hops on level 3/4/5/6 tracks, like you can use fender hooks on EVERY ninja track, like you can do vertical box climbs on ninja level 4/5/6 tracks. Ninja techniques aren't linked to a specific difficulty level.

Smilies2019
05-05-2015, 01:39 PM
some things are great in theory, but in real it is harder.
Same with asking for Ninja Community Ambassador.

This ninja level discusion is already going for years.
Just crossplatform ninja's already, no point in waiting for this discussion to end.

Ninja's are ninja's and nothing more. nobody knows their exact level.
Today its a level 2 tomorrow its a level 1.....first time playing a new ninja track always gives more faults then doing it for the second time or more.

lets face another thing, this Ninja Community Ambassador question who want it to be is going on for about 2 weeks.
And stil not 1 person has offered himself (im to bad at giving levels to ninja else i would)
So does it mean, if no Ninja Community Ambassador wil be chosen, ninja cross platforming wil be just another Myth?

We dont need a Ninja Community Ambassador for beginner - easy - medium - hard or extreme tracks.
And there are 100000's of difrent obstacles to make to determine a ninja level.

So....if u want a Ninja Community Ambassador first then upload ninja's, i think we wil have to wait until eternity.

RetiredRonin
05-05-2015, 02:17 PM
In my opinion, there are already Ninja Community Ambassador streaming live on twitch
And they helping to grow the community already.
They getting asked a lot, should i buy this game?

We aren't just looking for people who recommend Trials to others (though that is pretty awesome, especially when they do so while showing such insane amounts of skill). We're looking for people who want to help the Ninja community grow, and don't have an issue with wanting to take up some of the burden that is necessary to do so.


But (i could understand wrong) you're saying ninja should be for beginners only (it is to help beginner ninja riders)
I always wanted to be a ninja rider and the best way to learn is to make them or just doing them.
Make a ninja obstacle in the editor and ride it, or ask someone for an good starter ninja track.
I'm making ninja tracks only (PC) just because i love ninja's ( exept the level 4+)

That's not quite what I was saying. Guidelines will help beginners know what they are getting into when it comes to seeing Ninja tracks in Track Central, but it will also help other players who can complete a certain skill level but don't want to deal with something far beyond what they are capable of. Much how some people just want to throw down some times on Medium tracks and then there's an Extreme level track in the middle of the feed.


I would crossplatform ninja tracks by checking leaderboards, if the top has 0 to20 faults, it should be rated a level 1 something like that.
Maybe good idea to start crossplatforming those, (if it is for beginner ninja riders anyway)

As others have stated this won't work very well as it can be pretty dependent on how much grinding people have done on a track.


Anyone attempting write up such a thing would encounter the same issues as yourself: they would be speaking for themselves rather than the ninja community. Even those who have posted in the thread I created are a very small minority of the ninja riders out there, especially some of the more experienced players who got banned from these forums for some reason. \_(ツ)_/

That's why it is important for these players to have a dialog and work on it as a community and not by themselves. Subjectivity will always play a part in difficulty designations, but by working with more opinions and getting a general consensus, that subjectivity is diminished and the difficulty comes more in line with the overall skill level of the community as a whole.


I already posted my general opinion in that thread, but its hard for me to be specific about what constitutes those difficulty steps because a.) There are far better ninja riders out there than myself who can beat tracks that are considered lvl 4 and above (while I struggle with 3s) and b.) I've been playing Trials for less than a year...

It doesn't matter how long you've been playing. What matters are your thoughts on the skill level required to complete a track or obstacle. With enough feedback from other players, the people who step up to the challenge of creating the guidelines will be able to base them on the community and not on individuals.


And honestly I don't think its that necessary, I think the community would be fine if it were left to the track creators to set the difficulty themselves, if that's the reason you're requesting such details on difficulty levels. So if you're going to cross-plat these ninja tracks and need to mark a difficulty for them somewhere, just ask the creators of those tracks yourselves and if the creators themselves are unsure, they can post in the Ninja Difficulty thread and the community can rate them at that point.

A track creator setting the difficulty for a track that they have created is a far more subjective proposition without guidelines. It is based on their view of a track that they have created. They have the benefit of knowing exactly how they *should* ride the track.

StormPsykoz
05-05-2015, 02:42 PM
Personally I wouldn't mind taking the ambassador seat, but I have to see if moderating & adding things on the french forums tracklist won't interfere. That is, if an ambassador is really needed. I'm saying that because the community managed to stay on the ninja boat despite the countless debates about the level of a track. (Even if now the boat is about to sink imo)

Crossplatform ninjas would be a great addition to the game, and I myself wanna see that coming.

Also I'm thinking about releasing video tutorials about ninja techniques. So far the only video tutorials I've seen are about bunny hopping.

Hairy Cabbage
05-08-2015, 12:32 AM
I said it before, there should be clear lines of what techniques are linked to what difficulty level. These should be the main guideline for making ninja obstacles

Not a system where a select few label tracks after they are made, but a system used for creating ninja obstacles with the same difficulty. It should be a tool for the creators, not for the riders.

I actually disagree with this. I have a fairly strong belief that it really doesnt matter if the builder knows what level they are building. as long as they feel they are building a track that is fairly CONSISTENT in difficulty then that is all that matters. How the track is rated after the release will determine who attempts the track and if they have a good time doing so. It is far more important that the track is correctly rated by the community as opposed to a single builder trying to build a track around some specific guidelines that i feel cant really be done (more on that point later)

as far as i am concerned, it is a near impossible task (and fairly unfair to expect this from us) to build some sort of system to rate specific obstacles in order to help builders to try to form a track of a specific level. As storm quite rightly pointed out above, many techniques span a broad range of levels and the only way to truly rate a track is by treating every track individually.

I am going to propose something that i feel would be the best way to build a solid track grading system to rate tracks.

Many moons ago i played a game called FFR (www.Flashflashrevolution.com). Some people may have heard of it but basically its a flash based music/rhythm game similar to something like DDR. a few years back they decided to switch their rating system from a 1-12 scale to a 1-100 scale. With this change came a very nice feature and a feature that i feel the ninja community could benefit greatly from if adopted correctly.

They build a forum dedicated to difficulty placement disputes. The way this would work for trials is we would select our scale (id suggest a 1-10 scale) and then select a base track for each difficulty. Each track would then be placed into a list by a few people to a fairly accurate scale. After that, the community would be able to start a thread in a dedicated forum section in regards to moving a specific track to a specific level if they feel it was wrongly rated. These threads would require an explanation for the suggested move as well as a fairly good comparison to one of the base tracks. A discussion would then form in the thread and eventually a decision will be made by the community as to whether or not the track should remain where it is or be moved to the suggested location (or sometimes a totally different location depending on the discussion). As new tracks are added to the list initially they will also be placed by a small group but can be disputed at any time.

Hopefully i described that well enough for you guys to get the idea. feel free to check out the FFR forums is you need an example of what i mean. http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/forumdisplay.php?f=76

Naturally each list would have to be managed by someone on the respective console, but as for xbox one, im more than happy to put myself forward to compile a preliminary list with a few other people... any volunteers? :)

BiG_SH0T_ROB
05-08-2015, 05:12 AM
StormPsykoz would make a good ambassador imo
but like he said the game is slowly dying so it might be too late :(

StormPsykoz
05-08-2015, 08:11 AM
I started uploading my ninja tutorials on Youtube : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3ezCKb3xGo

Tell me what you think about it :)

Also thanks rob for the nomination lol. Fusion is slowly dying indeed but it still has quite some activity. At least compared to evo.

PloosKy
05-12-2015, 11:32 PM
I'll be a ninja ambassador :eek:

StormPsykoz
05-13-2015, 12:29 AM
plop you're the barnacle ambassador :eek:

StormPsykoz
05-18-2015, 07:02 PM
Please RL don't let this thread die... It's been almost 1 month since the announcement, and we stil haven't heard any news about that since then :(

Also, I'll say it again, I don't mind being an ambassador if you really need one.

Haarmes
05-18-2015, 10:03 PM
yeah i would like to help make this happen somehow but i really don't have any clue what is asked from us still ^^ if we want to make some label on the tracks that get crossplatformed that what level they are there could be forum post of the tracks that are going to get crossplatformed and people would just comment on the forums what they think the levels of those tracks are. i think that way you could get somekind of accured answer.

Papasmur
05-19-2015, 05:59 PM
Is this thing dead yet?

DannersMac
05-19-2015, 09:03 PM
I haven't actually posted on this forum for a really long time now but I saw this announcement and its such an awesome idea I wanna throw in my two cents.

Whilst I personally believe (and have done for some time now) that 'levelling' ninjas is a fundamentally flawed system and haven't bothered myself much with doing so for quite some time, I DO definitely appreciate that it has some useful implications for helping new players into playing ninjas, which seems to be a very important aspect of what Shifty has been saying. So for all intents and purposes I can totally get behind having a ninja level system, although to simply have someone be the sole ambassador might be a little ambitious, although like others have said Psykoz seems like a great candidate with a constantly updating YouTube channel.

I think it was said before in this thread (I kinda skimmed through) but ideally what you just have to have is something similar to what we had with the Evo ninja thread. Ninja levels are subjective and there is no way someone can say objectively the difficulty of a track or even a certain obstacle, so what we can do is just get the general opinion and use that. If 85% of people say level 2, then rate it level 2. Its not an exact science but its the best way to do it. As long as you have a thread ongoing where people discuss tracks then you could easily implement an 'official' level system like our 'unofficial' ones we used to have. I fear a thread like that would not do as well on the current forum as with the Evo ninja thread but hopefully it can work out.

As for what is required of someone to work their way through the levels is also kind of up for debate. I think generally people would agree that fenderhooks and backwards wheelies would be required for level 1. To be honest though I'd much prefer seeing less gimmick-heavy tracks if they were to go cross platform, although I appreciate that it makes it even harder to specify what is required of a player. An excellent example of the level of difficulty in a track in regards to what level you should call it can be found in the game already (and they are almost entirely devoid of gimmicks.) The ninja versions of the in-game extremes range from level 1 (Eye of the Storm eg.) to level 3 (Inferno IV) and maybe even level 4 (Meteorain.)

But yeah I'd love to see this idea implemented (not sure if it has or hasn't already) so I wish you the best of luck with it.

LzZzR
05-20-2015, 01:32 PM
Hi, Im LzZzR , Ive been working on the cross platform Uplay Recommended tracks and now Ill be working closely with you ninja riders and builders to get some great ninja tracks cross platform as well.
To help the conversation we have collected data on some of the ninja tracks recommended by the players in the Ninja Track Nomination thread. We collected a lot more stats than what we are going to look at today but after looking over the data we selected what we thought were the most interesting data sets that might give some insights into track difficulty. These top 4 data sets were combined and the tracks are given a track rating and arranged in order from the most difficult to the least difficult.

The tracks are rated using the following stats:
1. Completion % (How many attempts end up in completion)
2. Median faults for first completion
3. Minimum faults for first completion (Minimum across all players)
4. How many times the track was started before completing the track (median for players who have completed the track)

The points for each factor are scaled between 0-1 and the difficulty score for each track is just the sum across all four factors. So the aggregate score ranges from 0-4:

http://i.imgur.com/ITYWbZZ.png

Overall the graph appears in line with the suggested difficulty ratings given by the players who recommended the tracks. Next step is up to you, the ninja community, to decide how to interpret this data. Should the Track Score be translated into a ninja level? What is it about these particular tracks that you think makes them more or less difficult and how can we use that to help us define ninja levels. How many ninja levels should there be? Some have suggested abandoning ninja levels all together and make ninja a singular difficulty that simply means above extreme.
There is plenty to consider here and wed like to know your thoughts.

Haarmes
05-20-2015, 02:58 PM
i thought about this data for a bit and i think it's really cool idea. it's seems to me that it still need some tweaking. i haven't played some of these tracks but i'm pretty sure "Preposterous" is considered a level 5 and charred remains is level 3. and to me it seems like there isn't really that big of a gap there. maybe the fact that some cp's on charred remains are kinda inconsistent and you can fault 100 times kinda easilty on them so maybe this makes the score higher? other thing that i don't really know if it affects the scoring is that these tracks are on single platform and i think most really good ninjas play on X1 if i'm not mistaking. and i think this can lower the score on some tracks maybe?

PloosKy
05-20-2015, 06:17 PM
Hey, I really like to see actual statistics brought up. The system now is nothing but personal opinion and bias, although it still gets to the point. This list looks pretty accurate. Although Templosif isn't the hardest track in the game, it is the hardest on this list and probably the most voted for track besides ascension ninja. Just from my experience playing this game(3 years) I have a pretty good idea of all the tracks and their differences in difficulty. So, if this statistical system is used, there's people that can always double check in case there's any errors. - I really want Templosif cross - plat :)

I think there should be a graph for votes, because there's some really good ninjas not mentioned here.

Hairy Cabbage
05-20-2015, 06:25 PM
@LzZzR

If you can create an "official" redlynx rating system that requires no personal opinions whatsoever than im 110% for that. No arguments, no complaints, just 1 formula to calculate the difficulty of a track... Make it happen...

p.s. it would also be nice to see some tracks that were ACTUALLY suggested on that chart also. Where is freezing point? where is Shafted? where is Childs Play? They should lie somewhere between propost and charred on the graph.

Showing more high level tracks like those would given an indication to players that this formula is working. Give more examples to help people believe in the system and people will be more likely to accept it over the joke of a system people are currently using.

scarrha34
05-20-2015, 09:04 PM
I think this is a really good idea but I see a few problem with this :

First, tracks that are more popular are gonna be played by more players, the problem will be that for 2 tracks of the same lvl, the less popular one will be completed only by the best, and best players will fault less than other, while the popular track will attract player with a lower skill lvl and those players will fault more and increase the rating of the track.

Quick example:
A lvl 5 track is created but only 1 player plays it, he complete it with 2 Time out and 200 faults. Then a lvl 3 track is created but played by a lot of players, some will pass it easily but some will restart 20 times and complete it with 400 faults. So with your system the lvl 3 may be rated higher than the lvl 5.
Obviously that's not a major problem, because this won't happenned really often, but still.

Second problem is how do you include the length of the track and the length of checkpoints ? Cause if a track is 50 CP long it's gonna be rated high even if those CP are just extreme, so we need to agree on wether or not we include the length in difficulty lvl.
Same problem with CP length, If you make a 2min long CP with lvl 1 obstacles it will be rated high while if you create a 5 sec lvl 5 CP it will be rated low.

Final problem is the type of track : We need to make difference between a climb track, a back/front wheel track and a normal technical track. Cause some players may be monsters at climbing but really bad at B/F wheel stuff. For that we just need something telling us what type of ytrack it is.

That's it for now I think but the rating system seems still really good.

Smilies2019
05-20-2015, 09:26 PM
personaly i think you'll make it more dificult then the ninja's itself.
Keep it simple : beginner - easy - medium- hard - extreme - NINJA

First there was just level 1-2-3-4-5
Now its easy 4 - hard 2 - easy 1 etc etc etc...and people already talking about a level 7....where does it end?

So i would say, forget that level system to make it xplatform....just check the TAG NINJA

Or make an ingame system like VOTE: ride a ninja and VOTE for level? easy does it

scarrha34
05-20-2015, 10:28 PM
personaly i think you'll make it more dificult then the ninja's itself.
Keep it simple : beginner - easy - medium- hard - extreme - NINJA

First there was just level 1-2-3-4-5
Now its easy 4 - hard 2 - easy 1 etc etc etc...and people already talking about a level 7....where does it end?

So i would say, forget that level system to make it xplatform....just check the TAG NINJA

Or make an ingame system like VOTE: ride a ninja and VOTE for level? easy does it

The ninja lvl is evolving a lvl 5 from 3 years ago is lvl4 now and ninjas get better every day so we need more lvl to represent the fact that the skill is higher than before. It will end when people will stop to improve.

When you say easy -medium-hard-extreme-ninja, I feel like you don't know anything about ninja, the skill difference between a lvl1 and a lvl 2 is higher than the skill difference between a beginner track and an extreme.

Create an ingame vote is not a bad idea, but some players just have no idea about what ninja lvl is currently and they may vote stupidly.

LzZzR
05-21-2015, 07:33 AM
i thought about this data for a bit and i think it's really cool idea. it's seems to me that it still need some tweaking. i haven't played some of these tracks but i'm pretty sure "Preposterous" is considered a level 5 and charred remains is level 3. and to me it seems like there isn't really that big of a gap there. maybe the fact that some cp's on charred remains are kinda inconsistent and you can fault 100 times kinda easilty on them so maybe this makes the score higher? other thing that i don't really know if it affects the scoring is that these tracks are on single platform and i think most really good ninjas play on X1 if i'm not mistaking. and i think this can lower the score on some tracks maybe?

The fact that the official ninja tracks are cross platforms seems to have that effect on the statistics. Perhaps it's a good idea to add other crossplatform ninjas on the graph like Lopistum?



p.s. it would also be nice to see some tracks that were ACTUALLY suggested on that chart also. Where is freezing point? where is Shafted? where is Childs Play? They should lie somewhere between propost and charred on the graph.

Showing more high level tracks like those would given an indication to players that this formula is working. Give more examples to help people believe in the system and people will be more likely to accept it over the joke of a system people are currently using.

The tracks on the graph are from the suggestions made by the players. I picked some from the thread while trying to get a variance in difficulty levels. I'll add more tracks and give a new graph if you'd like.



Second problem is how do you include the length of the track and the length of checkpoints ? Cause if a track is 50 CP long it's gonna be rated high even if those CP are just extreme, so we need to agree on wether or not we include the length in difficulty lvl.
Same problem with CP length, If you make a 2min long CP with lvl 1 obstacles it will be rated high while if you create a 5 sec lvl 5 CP it will be rated low.

Final problem is the type of track : We need to make difference between a climb track, a back/front wheel track and a normal technical track. Cause some players may be monsters at climbing but really bad at B/F wheel stuff. For that we just need something telling us what type of ytrack it is.

That's it for now I think but the rating system seems still really good.

I think the length of a track affects the difficulty level. Look at Gigatrack from Evo, it was a medium track but it was so long it was harder than other medium tracks.

The different types of tracks might be a problem, but I think the statistics will still provide an accurate estimate on the difficulty level.

scarrha34
05-21-2015, 08:53 AM
Allright when I first play Gigatrack I had difficulties but now if I play it again it will only be a long medium track, not harder than the other. But maybe you are right cause in the end you are mixing result from both good and bad players (no offense).
For the first point you didn't answer but I think there is already some problem with the rating of some tracks cause of inconsintantcy or other problems.
For example I think that main drain is way harder than charred remains (I d like confirmation from other players) but the problem is charred remains was really inconsistant so even good players fault a lot while main drain is really consistant so good players didn't fault a lot. Also main drain is really long but charred remains is short, so if we agree that a longer track is harder, main drain should be rated higher than charred remains.
Another problem is between preposterous and templost, I don't know wich one is harder but the gap between both seems too big. I think it's because: first preposterous was a well known track on evo so players who passed it knew the track already, secondly the lvl of ninja players on One is higher than on PS4 so a track from PS4 will be rated higher than one on One.

Smilies2019
05-21-2015, 10:12 AM
When you say easy -medium-hard-extreme-ninja, I feel like you don't know anything about ninja.

i didnt ment easy ninja - beginner ninja etc lol
i ment...just put ninja as a official difficulty in the game.
And i do know what a ninja is, i build ninja's for almost 3 years now.

StormPsykoz
05-21-2015, 10:30 AM
Really nice to see some new stuff ! :)
This graph might be a very useful thing indeed. But like Haarmes said, it needs some tweaking.


For example I think that main drain is way harder than charred remains (I d like confirmation from other players) but the problem is charred remains was really inconsistant so even good players fault a lot while main drain is really consistant so good players didn't fault a lot. Also main drain is really long but charred remains is short, so if we agree that a longer track is harder, main drain should be rated higher than charred remains.
Another problem is between preposterous and templost, I don't know wich one is harder but the gap between both seems too big. I think it's because: first preposterous was a well known track on evo so players who passed it knew the track already, secondly the lvl of ninja players on One is higher than on PS4 so a track from PS4 will be rated higher than one on One.

The Main Drain is easier than Charred remains NJ. And a PS4 track will never be rated higher than a Xbox One track, that doesn't make sense. Templosif is MUCH harder than Preposterous.


personaly i think you'll make it more dificult then the ninja's itself.
Keep it simple : beginner - easy - medium- hard - extreme - NINJA

First there was just level 1-2-3-4-5
Now its easy 4 - hard 2 - easy 1 etc etc etc...and people already talking about a level 7....where does it end?

So i would say, forget that level system to make it xplatform....just check the TAG NINJA

Or make an ingame system like VOTE: ride a ninja and VOTE for level? easy does it

The actual levels are fine. I'd honestly prefer to talk about a track as level 1-2-3-4-5-6 rather than "easy ninja, hard ninja, ..." And level 7 will never be a real thing for sure.

And about the vote system, I think that could lead quickly to some mess-ups, with people doing troll votes (Voting level 1 on a level 3 track, for example).

LzZzR
05-21-2015, 10:46 AM
What exactly needs tweaking on the graph? If you have any ideas it would be greatly appreciated.
Is there a track that has an inaccurate rating on the graph?

StormPsykoz
05-21-2015, 11:15 AM
Well, I played most of these tracks on the graph and for example, seeing Charred Remains NJ so close to Preposterous kinda puzzles me. I passed Charred Remains NJ first try, and timed out 2 times on Preposterous.

Or maybe it's just because there is no level 4 tracks. Please can you do the same graph with the following tracks please :

Ice Ninja Climb - Dolce-Felice (PS4)
Dead Rig - Trraav (X1)
Masamune [7] - real_seven (PS4)

Govna company - Jeruhnq (PS4)
Freezing Point - ConfusedMuscles (PC)
Shafted - Hairy Cabbage (X1)

Wesleyden - Mount Confirmation (PS4)
slikscythe - Dawn of a Ninja (X360)
Hallowvale - PMS Creations (X1)

SP- Netherion - Storm PsykoZ (X1)
Mr Fap's Inhuman - ll Ghetto x (X360)

I separated the tracks in groups, 1 group for each ninja level from level 3 to level 6.

Also i'm putting here my own opinion about the tracks from the easiest to the hardest, to see if I will match the graph or not :

1) Dead Rig
2) Ice Ninja Climb
3) Masamune [7]
4) Freezing Point
5) Govna company
6) Shafted
7) Dawn of a Ninja
8) Mount Confirmation
9) Hallowvale
10) SP- Netherion
11) Mr Fap's Inhuman

Thanks :)

Smilies2019
05-21-2015, 11:42 AM
no offence....but level 1 and 2 ninja's is for more public then 3+ ninja's
i mean...this is al about ninja xplatforming.
and picking or discussing only level 3+ ninja's is not fair.
Because from PC i only see Freezing Point. its a great track but not many can pass it.


just my personal oppinion:)

LzZzR
05-21-2015, 11:43 AM
@StormPsykoz
Unfortunately another graph is already under progress so I cannot have that list for the next graph. However some of those tracks were already added to be included in the next graph: Freezing Point, Shafted and Hallowvale. Perhaps you can try to estimate where these 3 tracks will end up in the next graph?


no offence....but level 1 and 2 ninja's is for more public then 3+ ninja's
i mean...this is al about ninja xplatforming.
and picking or discussing only level 3+ ninja's is not fair.

just my personal oppinion:)
I agree ninja level 1 and 2 should take priority but harder level tracks will not be excluded.

StormPsykoz
05-21-2015, 11:57 AM
Oh okay then. Actually I removed level 1/2s because I just wanted to see the gaps between higher level tracks, then compare with the other graph which has many level 1s/2s.

I'm pretty sure Hallowvale will be one of the top tracks. Shafted will follow behind. I don't really know about Freezing Point.

scarrha34
05-21-2015, 12:41 PM
i didnt ment easy ninja - beginner ninja etc lol
i ment...just put ninja as a official difficulty in the game.
And i do know what a ninja is, i build ninja's for almost 3 years now.
I know what you meant, i am just telling you that there is more than just 1 ninja lvl cause as I said before the skill difference between 2 ninja lvl is much bigger than between a biginner and an extreme.

scarrha34
05-21-2015, 01:07 PM
Really nice to see some new stuff ! :)
This graph might be a very useful thing indeed. But like Haarmes said, it needs some tweaking.


ils sont en jeu
The Main Drain is easier than Charred remains NJ. And a PS4 track will never be rated higher than a Xbox One track, that doesn't make sense. Templosif is MUCH harder than Preposterous.



.

Why a PS4 track would never be rated higher than a One track, we all know that players are better on One than on PS4, I am talking particularly of Peqz Plopi Shayne, Red Tiga and Estiloo who, I think, are better than anyone on PS4, so they will fault less than players on PS4 and so they will reduce the rating of any track they are playing.
For the Prep/Temp rating, I didn't complete those so obviously I don't know what i am talking about but corect me if I am wrong but you don't play on PS4 do you ? And if you had done Prep before on evo it will obviously look easier now.

And for the main drain/charred remains comparison, personally I TO 3 times on each track but for charred remains it was at last CP while for the main drain it wasn't even half the track.
Because you are really good you wont have any problem passing consistent obstacles, so a track like main drain will look easy for you, but because charred remains is so inconsistent you will have trouble and you will fault more even if it's objectively not that hard.

I think we need more opinion on the subject, we can't decide if this is correct if we are only 2.

Hairy Cabbage
05-21-2015, 01:11 PM
Look forward to seeing the new graph. When can we expect to see it? :)


As for predictions in comparison to the old chart (assuming you use the same rating criteria):

Shafted and freezing point should both be situated in between Charred and Prepost (with shafted probably taking the higher rating slightly)
As for Hallovale, i think it will probably be rated higher than templosif but probably not by much (could also be slightly lower).

Hairy Cabbage
05-21-2015, 01:15 PM
Why a PS4 track would never be rated higher than a One track, we all know that players are better on One than on PS4, I am talking particularly of Peqz Plopi Shayne, Red Tiga and Estiloo who, I think, are better than anyone on PS4, so they will fault less than players on PS4 and so they will reduce the rating of any track they are playing.
For the Prep/Temp rating, I didn't complete those so obviously I don't know what i am talking about but corect me if I am wrong but you don't play on PS4 do you ? And if you had done Prep before on evo it will obviously look easier now.

And for the main drain/charred remains comparison, personally I TO 3 times on each track but for charred remains it was at last CP while for the main drain it wasn't even half the track.
Because you are really good you wont have any problem passing consistent obstacles, so a track like main drain will look easy for you, but because charred remains is so inconsistent you will have trouble and you will fault more even if it's objectively not that hard.

I think we need more opinion on the subject, we can't decide if this is correct if we are only 2.

I don't think you understand how a difficulty scale works. The scale does not change depending on how good players are. Extreme tracks on ps4 are not rated as hard tracks on xbox one simply because xbox one has better riders. The same is said for ninjas. A difficulty rating scale is something that theoretically should never change which is why a rating system based on statistics rather than player opinions is by far the better option.

People also need to stop thinking of ratings on a 1-6 scale or whatever. If a totally new scale is a better option then people need to leave the old scale in the past. We don't have to try and form a new rating system to adhere to an old scale.

LzZzR
05-21-2015, 01:43 PM
The statistics have been analyzed so here is the 2nd graph:

http://i.imgur.com/cEwBk9y.png

Note that Freezing Point should likely be higher but it had less plays compared to the tracks above it so it threw off the results a bit. Other than that the results should be on point.

The graph uses the same scoring system as the first graph. The score for the tracks that were in the first graph have changed a bit because the score is made by comparing the tracks in the graph so adding more tracks changed the track scores.

What do you think of this data? Is it accurate? Can we use it to evaluate ninja levels or does it still need some tweaking?

scarrha34
05-21-2015, 01:55 PM
I don't think you understand how a difficulty scale works. The scale does not change depending on how good players are. Extreme tracks on ps4 are not rated as hard tracks on xbox one simply because xbox one has better riders. The same is said for ninjas. A difficulty rating scale is something that theoretically should never change which is why a rating system based on statistics rather than player opinions is by far the better option.

People also need to stop thinking of ratings on a 1-6 scale or whatever. If a totally new scale is a better option then people need to leave the old scale in the past. We don't have to try and form a new rating system to adhere to an old scale.

I think you understood the opposite of what I was saying. I am not saying that we need to make a different rating system for different platform, no, I am saying that THIS rating system is problematic because of the difference of skill between platform.
Let me explain more precisely:
Let's take the exact same track on One and on PS4. Let's say that on PS4 5 players will pass it with 3 TO and 200 faults, now the same track played on Xbox One will be passef by 10 players, 5 with the same skill lvl than those on PS4 (3TO and 200 faults) and 5 who just are the top 5 players I mentionned earlier, and those players will pass it with only 1TO and 100 faults.
So with the current system the track will be passed by more players on One, so the point refering to the number of player passing the track will be lower on One than on PS4, same thing with the minimum number of fault, lower on One than on PS4, and same thing with the average number of TO and faults, lower on One than on PS.
So THERE IS a problem withthe current system if the skill lvl is different from one platform to another, and I think we agree on that right ?

fleskeknoke
05-21-2015, 02:20 PM
very exciting stuff here...!
keep going, lots of good points.. needs a litle tweaking yes but this graph thing is a great step in the right direction it seem.

Hairy Cabbage
05-21-2015, 03:31 PM
The statistics have been analyzed so here is the 2nd graph:

http://i.imgur.com/cEwBk9y.png

Note that Freezing Point should likely be higher but it had less plays compared to the tracks above it so it threw off the results a bit. Other than that the results should be on point.

The graph uses the same scoring system as the first graph. The score for the tracks that were in the first graph have changed a bit because the score is made by comparing the tracks in the graph so adding more tracks changed the track scores.

What do you think of this data? Is it accurate? Can we use it to evaluate ninja levels or does it still need some tweaking?

Something certainly needs tweeking.

Childs play and hallowvale with 1.5 rating? no
Shafted with 1.7? no

Those 3 tracks should all be somewhere in the same region as contra

RetiredRonin
05-21-2015, 04:08 PM
So, LzZzR, Shogun and I had some exchanges abut this, and it's Official.

StormPsykoz is the test subject for the Ninja Ambassador project. Congrats, Storm. You'll have a bit more weighted points of view in the ongoing discussions, so please make sure to take the other Ninjas into account. It'll be a bit of work, but you get a huge "Thank you" from us for stepping up for the task.

StormPsykoz
05-21-2015, 04:36 PM
Once again thanks to all the RL team for letting me take that seat ! :)

Jeruhnq
05-21-2015, 04:46 PM
Hi LzZzR,

Very nice work with the graph and glad to see the developers liked my initial idea :)

However i noticed some things who need improvements with this graph imo :
- You should use another stat with : "5. Total time played on the track for the first completion"
- Use only tracks where everyone could play (crossplatform tracks) OR use only tracks who are on 1 Platform (1 graph for 360, 1 graph for pc, etc..)

Another idea :
- Rate tracks by themself, not by depending of all tracks. In the 1st graph we can see Templosif with 3.571 points and in the 2nd graph the track has 2.855 points, it doesn't seem logic to me.
- Following this idea, if people want to keep the lvl system, you could define the lvl of tracks by their points (if the tracks aren't affected by the other tracks as i said before). For example, if a track is higher than 3.000 points, it's a lvl 5.




If you can create an "official" redlynx rating system that requires no personal opinions whatsoever than im 110% for that. No arguments, no complaints, just 1 formula to calculate the difficulty of a track... Make it happen...
203% agree with this ^
That would be good for everyone and why not for a futur Trials game with a ninja categorie :)


edit:
Congratz to Psykoz for his promotion ;)

scarrha34
05-21-2015, 05:27 PM
I think you should wait until tracks are crossplatform, then make the same thing. You should also change a little bit the first point, cause from what I understand the first point is a number but it should be more like a ratio, this way it wont depend on how many players tried the track. That's probably the reason why child play or Hallowale are missplaced, cause a few players tried it.
Replace the number of completion by (number of completion)/(number of players who tried the track) or something like that.

Hairy Cabbage
05-21-2015, 06:52 PM
So i think the real question is, now that we are making progress towards a tight new (and hopefully more accurate) unbiased rating system, when will we actually start to see levels making the leap from platform to platform? At the end of the day, this is what we are all looking forward to.

EDIT: just a slightly trivial request here, but if you dont mind, could you please rotate any more graphs you make by 90. they are so much easier to read that way, thanks. :)

StormPsykoz
05-21-2015, 10:41 PM
I think the graphs can be useful to scale tracks from the same level from the easiest to the hardest.

Let's take an example. I don't know what's going to be the next level 5 track I'll try. I'm hesitating between 3 tracks :

KILLinferno by li Shayne il
Deathline by Plopikoosy
Revelation by li Shayne il

Perhaps if we do a graph with these 3 tracks we can get an idea of what track I should play first, then what's the 2nd track I'll play and so it goes.

Another example with 3 level 3 tracks :

Bladeworks by Plopikoosy
Excalibur by Plopikoosy
Monkey Village by lolmon

If one doesn't know what's the easiest/most accessible track to play between these tracks, then we can put them on a graph and we'll have an answer.

That idea sounds better than putting tracks from different levels into one graph IMO.


Another idea :
- Following this idea, if people want to keep the lvl system, you could define the lvl of tracks by their points (if the tracks aren't affected by the other tracks as i said before). For example, if a track is higher than 3.000 points, it's a lvl 5.)

That's also a good idea, I thought about this one earlier.

RetiredRonin
05-22-2015, 01:15 AM
That idea sounds better than putting tracks from different levels into one graph IMO.

The point of these graphs are to show a visual representation of difficulty that is not as subjective. To do this, at least in this stage, tracks from the easiest (HA) to the most difficult edges should be included.

LzZzR's graph, to me, perfectly illustrates 5 separate difficulty levels (with SP. Penance & Stadium Ninja as outliers), though that could absolutely be attributed to the selection of tracks, and not a real split in the difficulty of all created tracks. There are large gaps between what I have boxed out. The gaps are smaller on the easier side of the spectrum, as I would expect, but become more pronounced the more difficult a track becomes. Much like the gaps between Beginner and Easy, and Easy and Medium as opposed to Hard to Extreme.

http://i.imgur.com/Mm5CXMd.png

Well done, LzZzR, but I agree, maybe rotate any future graphs clockwise 90 degrees. :D

StormPsykoz
05-22-2015, 06:25 AM
^ Good thing pointed out there. Jeruhnq's idea could coordinate very well with that.

I put some borderline values as a beginning. What does everyone think about these ones :

Level 1 : 0.001 -> 0.499
Level 2 : 0.500 -> 0.749
Level 3 : 0.750 -> 1.499
Level 4 : 1.500 -> 2.499
Level 5 : 2.500 -> 3.499
Level 6 : 3.500 -> 4.000

Is there some changes to make ? And should we use this as the new rating system ?
Although I'm well-aware that it'll cause confusion for some players (Hallowvale going down to level 4 will certainly make some noise lol).

scarrha34
05-22-2015, 08:27 AM
Yeah now I can say that I passed lvl 4 tracks.
More seriously there is still a problem with Hellowvale, child play and probably shafted. For Hallowvale I think it's because the track was released first with individual CP, so players had training on it and they probably TO and fault less because of that.
For child play I don't really know what's the problem but it's definitely way harder than Way of the machine. So maybe it's because not a lot of players tried it while WOTM was really popular, in the top of the ninja section for a long time.
By the way how did you do to mix Redlynx ninjas that are cross platform with track from One or PS4 only ? Because the total number of players is not the same, so the totat number of completion could be affected.

Haarmes
05-22-2015, 10:57 AM
few things i noticed. i think the redlynx ninjas are still higher than they should be, and maybe this is because they were on the uplay recommendet tracks when they were crossplatformed and people played them way more? i think there is a huge group of people that play uplay recommendet tracks on TC and pretty much nothing else. and i figuret that if you make these redlynx NJ scores 60% ( X 0.6 ) of what they are now i think they are farely accuret. i don't know if this is a legit way of doing it if the crossplatted ninja tracks are appearing on the ninja tabs on tc and not the uplay recommendet like i think they are going to :P

IImayneII
05-22-2015, 11:33 AM
I am only following this thread on and off, so forgive my rambling, but to me it seems like there is maybe a bit too much focus going towards the statistics now, with trying to set boundaries based on them and trying to adjust some of the tracks into their proper categories. While that is fine, I don't think there should be alot of focus on it. I think with going off from the statistics it will end up with a system that rates tracks post-publishing, while I would rather see a system that is usefull during the creation of a track so builders can implement the right obstacles for a certain difficulty instead of having to wait for people to play the track and base the difficulty off that. Because when you base the difficulty off the statistics I feel like it will be a too variable system. Since depending on how many veteran ninja riders/new players play a track, I assume the score will still vary.

scarrha34
05-22-2015, 12:16 PM
few things i noticed. i think the redlynx ninjas are still higher than they should be, and maybe this is because they were on the uplay recommendet tracks when they were crossplatformed and people played them way more? i think there is a huge group of people that play uplay recommendet tracks on TC and pretty much nothing else. and i figuret that if you make these redlynx NJ scores 60% ( X 0.6 ) of what they are now i think they are farely accuret. i don't know if this is a legit way of doing it if the crossplatted ninja tracks are appearing on the ninja tabs on tc and not the uplay recommendet like i think they are going to :P

That's pretty much what I said and that's why I asked for the way they mixed Cross plarform tracks and single platform tracks but you can't just arbitrarily choose a number.
I don't know how they did but I think the problem is coming from a mistake in proportion, cause if you compare result from different population number you need to use proportions not simple numbers. If the ninja population is bigger on One (I think it is) you need to report the score to the total population accross platform with weight equal to the proportion of ninjas per platform.

scarrha34
05-22-2015, 12:21 PM
I am only following this thread on and off, so forgive my rambling, but to me it seems like there is maybe a bit too much focus going towards the statistics now, with trying to set boundaries based on them and trying to adjust some of the tracks into their proper categories. While that is fine, I don't think there should be alot of focus on it. I think with going off from the statistics it will end up with a system that rates tracks post-publishing, while I would rather see a system that is usefull during the creation of a track so builders can implement the right obstacles for a certain difficulty instead of having to wait for people to play the track and base the difficulty off that. Because when you base the difficulty off the statistics I feel like it will be a too variable system. Since depending on how many veteran ninja riders/new players play a track, I assume the score will still vary.

You right when you say that it will vary depending on the players, especially when we know that there is very few ninja players, statistics don't like small numbers.
But I don't see any way to judge the difficulty before any kind of statistics or during the creation of the track. It's not like you good give a grade to an obstacle.

IImayneII
05-22-2015, 02:22 PM
It's not like you good give a grade to an obstacle.

I don't see why not, it's like that for every other difficulty besides ninja's. Obstacles are a bit harder to define, but things like certain techniques/combo techniques can defenitly be linked to certain ninja levels. I would use the stats graph to pull obstacles/techniques used in those tracks and link them to certain difficulties. Ofcourse there will never be a 100% perfect system, but tagging difficulty after publishing a track feels like a bad idea. I feel it's the same with other difficulties, you don't make a track, publish it and tag the difficulty afterwards compared to how people do on your track. T

he most important thing imo is for creators to know how obstacles/techniques scale trough the seperate difficulty levels, not tagging a difficulty to a track afterwards because it's going to be the same problem as we have now. People will get better at ninja's, stats will change, and harder ninja's will get statistically lower ninja levels tagged to them. Even things like tagging a track with a certain level in the name influences the stats because the higher it is tagged, te lesser people who will try it. If only the real pro's take on high levels, they might make a track look easier than it really is, unless that's accounted for in the statistics, wich I have no idea if it is atm.

TLDR
I think the stats will be a good way to try to find a consistent general rule of thumb for difficulties, but imo if you are going to tag the difficulty based on those stats it's going in the wrong direction. They should aid in setting up a consistent system, not define the difficulty based on how well people do on them.

Hairy Cabbage
05-22-2015, 03:34 PM
I think Scarrha had just touched on something i also thought of last night. The fact that some higher level ninjas release with checkpoints will taint the actual rating of that track making it considerably lower than it perhaps should be. I dont think there is really anything we can do about this.

StormPsykoz
05-22-2015, 07:03 PM
Quick question : Are the ninja track drops going to be each week like the UGC track drops ?

scarrha34
05-23-2015, 10:24 AM
I don't see why not, it's like that for every other difficulty besides ninja's. Obstacles are a bit harder to define, but things like certain techniques/combo techniques can defenitly be linked to certain ninja levels. I would use the stats graph to pull obstacles/techniques used in those tracks and link them to certain difficulties. Ofcourse there will never be a 100% perfect system, but tagging difficulty after publishing a track feels like a bad idea. I feel it's the same with other difficulties, you don't make a track, publish it and tag the difficulty afterwards compared to how people do on your track. T

he most important thing imo is for creators to know how obstacles/techniques scale trough the seperate difficulty levels, not tagging a difficulty to a track afterwards because it's going to be the same problem as we have now. People will get better at ninja's, stats will change, and harder ninja's will get statistically lower ninja levels tagged to them. Even things like tagging a track with a certain level in the name influences the stats because the higher it is tagged, te lesser people who will try it. If only the real pro's take on high levels, they might make a track look easier than it really is, unless that's accounted for in the statistics, wich I have no idea if it is atm.

TLDR
I think the stats will be a good way to try to find a consistent general rule of thumb for difficulties, but imo if you are going to tag the difficulty based on those stats it's going in the wrong direction. They should aid in setting up a consistent system, not define the difficulty based on how well people do on them.

You are right in theory but in practice I think you can't do it.
The difficulty lvl of an obstacle depend on the player, for example I have passed a lot of lvl 3 tracks based on pure technic or on back/front wheel stuff but when it comes to climbing tracks I have problem passing even lvl 2 tracks. Other players have the opposite problem. That's why we use statistics, cause we are all different and we wont have difficulties on the same obstacle.

Then you said that we can judge lvls by technic involved, yes and no, let's take a wall climb, the technic is the same if you have a 10 meters wall or a 50 meters wall but the difficulty is different. That's just an example but it's even harder to judge for other kind of obstacles. And you also have to take into account the fact that most tracks don't have 1 CP for 1 obstacle, same problem for long tracks, a 50 CP long track with lvl 1-2 obstacles can be considered of the same lvl as a short lvl 3.

In the end it's more about the obstacle in itself than just the technic involved, most purely technical ninjas use basic technics, that you learn playing lvl 1 tracks, but you can push it to his limit and create lvl 5 with it ( the best example for me is obviously Hallowvale).
Finally what I think you suggest is to create a sort of comparative table with ninja technics (or for me obstacles) and the associated lvl. It's not a bad idea in itself but it will be 3 pages long and it will get bigger every time a track is released, cause every obstacle is unique, and more importantly no one will ever watch a table while creating a track.

IImayneII
05-23-2015, 06:05 PM
You are right in theory but in practice I think you can't do it.
The difficulty lvl of an obstacle depend on the player, for example I have passed a lot of lvl 3 tracks based on pure technic or on back/front wheel stuff but when it comes to climbing tracks I have problem passing even lvl 2 tracks. Other players have the opposite problem. That's why we use statistics, cause we are all different and we wont have difficulties on the same obstacle.

Then you said that we can judge lvls by technic involved, yes and no, let's take a wall climb, the technic is the same if you have a 10 meters wall or a 50 meters wall but the difficulty is different. That's just an example but it's even harder to judge for other kind of obstacles. And you also have to take into account the fact that most tracks don't have 1 CP for 1 obstacle, same problem for long tracks, a 50 CP long track with lvl 1-2 obstacles can be considered of the same lvl as a short lvl 3.

In the end it's more about the obstacle in itself than just the technic involved, most purely technical ninjas use basic technics, that you learn playing lvl 1 tracks, but you can push it to his limit and create lvl 5 with it ( the best example for me is obviously Hallowvale).
Finally what I think you suggest is to create a sort of comparative table with ninja technics (or for me obstacles) and the associated lvl. It's not a bad idea in itself but it will be 3 pages long and it will get bigger every time a track is released, cause every obstacle is unique, and more importantly no one will ever watch a table while creating a track.


While you make some good points, both views have their flaws and benefits.

While the difficulty level of an obstacle depends on the player, the difficulty tag on a track still stays the same for everyone, that's why you should use the statistics as a guide tool. Just because certain players are not 'skilled' enough on certain obstacles doesn't mean the obstacle is in a higher tier difficulty. The obstacle difficulty doesn't change because a certain amount of people have trouble with it, if that was the case than extremes should be tagged ninja for 90% of the community.

And I feel that this is just the core of the problem at the moment. If you base difficulties on how players perform on the tracks, then what if a big group of them get alot better during the next year? The statistics would change, and general harder tracks would fall into easier categories. Wich is the problem that is happening now, people rate ninja tracks easier because they just got better at them over time.

Yes, categorising techniques isn't set in stone, just like any other difficulty. But like the official difficulties, there are general techniques to be used at certain difficulties. It's probably just going to be a bit harder to define them for ninja's, but I don't see a problem with this. For me, as a builder, the most important thing is having an idea on what obstacles to use to make a consistent track. If you have no guidelines you can still end up with tracks that have obstacles all over the place and get thrown into higher difficulties because on 1 or 2 obstacles that shouldn't be in the track in the first place. Wich may create a wrong view of them because of it.

And yes, specially for ninja's the obstacles tend to be alot longer, that's why I mentioned techniques/combo techniques. If you do a wall climb into 2 bunny hops, that can still be considered one obstacle for a ninja track. And at least for me, longer tracks shouldn't be categorised in a higher difficulty because they are long (unless they take up like 20min to finish them). A long extreme track, is still an extreme track. It doesn't magically turn into a ninja because of that. I would rather call it an endurance extreme then than a ninja.

True, maybe I'm a bit too much focussed on techniques, and should take both sides, techniques and obstacles, into account. I agree it won't turn into a perfect list, but there are certainly some things you can use in for example a lvl3 that should never exist in a lvl 1 or 2. While that probably isn't the majority of the obstacles, it could create a guideline. And a "list" is maybe a bad word, as there is no list for the official difficulties either. But if it can work for those, then I don't see why it wouldn't work for ninja's too.


TLDR

I honestly have no idea what I suggest, I'm just pitching in because like as a builder I feel that guidelines for certain difficulties could be alot more helpfull than rating tracks post-publishing. If you go with statistics based on how people performed on the tracks, when people improve over time, ninja's willl once again be tagged easier than they really are. Wich was the problem in the first place, that's why it should be taken as a guideline to make a better system, if that's even possible.


PS

I still like the idea RL proposed to start tagging ninja's with the ingame difficulties, rather than levels. It would make everything more in line with what's officially in the game and makes more sense for me at least (maybe makes it easier for RL to officially implement ninja's in a new trials game). It is also a good option to cap ninja levels, if people start making even harder tracks (if that's even possible), it could open up a whole new area to explore instead of having to call them ninja level 7...8...9, it could introduce a whole new category and maybe stabelise difficulty ratings (not tagging them easier than they really are because people get better). Dibs on calling it the "samurai" category :D



PS*

And while I think about it, I read something in the thread about that it is not good to compare tracks over all difficulties (or compare them at all). But, imo, the only statistical system that is interesting is comparing all tracks over all (nina) difficulties. Because when the ninja community improves as a whole the statistics would still be the same compared to each other. The easy ninja's would still be at the bottom and the harder ones on top. If you would rate them seperatly by points, their stats would drop and harder tracks would fall into easier categories again just because the skill level went up. And I just realise this kinda negates the problem I had with the statistics system, I guess my main gripe with it is that it's post-publishing. I would rather see some pre-publishing guidelines, but from what I can tell, the most beneficial system would be to have both systems, since they seem to be complementary to a certain degree.

Smilies2019
05-23-2015, 08:30 PM
i totaly agree with you IImayneII
people are getting better so tracks wil be easier.
Example inferno 4(NJ) was a level 4 now a level 3 and only because people getting better or grind until they got lower faults
So yes...an extreme is an exteme...but if u compare all extremes in the basic ( No dlc) they are getting harder and harder
But its stil extreme, while 1 year ago extreme inferno 4 was called a ninja level 1.

I think this discussion is taking way to long and should just be stopped.
Call them ninja and xplatform them :p

TeriXeri
05-24-2015, 11:54 AM
All I can say about ninja difficulty, it should be completely seperate from extreme in a next game (or add it to Fusion if possible) so there's no need to look up ninja tags anymore and it's visible right from the main feed even tho there are seperate ninja feeds now, they still would show on things like "new trials track" every now and then :)

Of course people could still add Ninja to the title if it were like a ninja version of a track that has multiple versions of difficulties.

The "level" system is flawed as every player has different perception of difficulty and skill levels.

StormPsykoz
05-24-2015, 09:46 PM
The level system isn't flawed, it's the way we rate tracks that cause problems.

And no matter if the levels are defined as level 1 to level 6, beginner to extreme, or w/e, if we keep using the actual rating system, there will still be debates about the level of a track. Because like TeriXeri said, every player has different perception of difficulty and skill levels.


i totaly agree with you IImayneII
people are getting better so tracks wil be easier.
Example inferno 4(NJ) was a level 4 now a level 3 and only because people getting better or grind until they got lower faults
So yes...an extreme is an exteme...but if u compare all extremes in the basic ( No dlc) they are getting harder and harder
But its stil extreme, while 1 year ago extreme inferno 4 was called a ninja level 1.

I think this discussion is taking way to long and should just be stopped.
Call them ninja and xplatform them :p

Inferno 4 has always been defined as an extreme track.
Inferno 4 NJ has always been defined as a ninja level 3.

StormPsykoz
05-25-2015, 11:13 AM
Also I have 2 extra questions to LzZzR : Now that we know there will be crossplatform ninja track drops, will they be on thursday like the Uplay track drops ?

And how often is there going to be a track drop ?

LzZzR
05-27-2015, 07:44 AM
Also I have 2 extra questions to LzZzR : Now that we know there will be crossplatform ninja track drops, will they be on thursday like the Uplay track drops ?

And how often is there going to be a track drop ?

The ninja tracks will be separate from the Uplay track drops. The amount of tracks and the time they are uploaded will depend on how much time I have to work on the ninja tracks as I have other tasks with more priority such as the Uplay tracks. At the time being I cannot give you anything conclusive, but I would try to aim for a minimum of 1-2 tracks weekly, more if I have the time.

StormPsykoz
05-27-2015, 09:50 AM
Okay thanks for answering ! :)

LzZzR
05-27-2015, 11:00 AM
Hey everyone,

Forest Settlement Ninja, Ascension (Ninja) and Govna company are now available on X1, PS4 and PC.

StormPsykoz
05-27-2015, 12:40 PM
Yayyyy

But where is Freezing Point ? Is there some issues with porting it ? :confused:

LzZzR
05-27-2015, 12:54 PM
Unfortunately there were some corruption issues with Freezing Point. The track will uploaded as soon as the issues are resolved but I have no estimate on that yet.

xJamaicanX
05-27-2015, 04:51 PM
Unfortunately there were some corruption issues with Freezing Point. The track will uploaded as soon as the issues are resolved but I have no estimate on that yet.

It's probably the penguins. Get rid of them and try again :)

Smilies2019
05-27-2015, 08:35 PM
awesome..finaly ninja's xplatformed...but.......
Ascension (Ninja) and Govna company came to PC and gues what

Ascension (Ninja) has been passed by 8 people so far ( i timed out on sec last cp)
Govna company has been passed by just 1 person (not me)

awesome ninja's but they are way to hard for most people...
Do you want to reach a big playerbase or just the smal amount of pro ninja riders (PC is already dying)
i tought level 1-2 ninja's were priority?

And i dont get why u need an Ninja Community Ambassador if there isnt a level added to the title of the xplat ninja

StormPsykoz
05-27-2015, 11:20 PM
Why would you add a level to the title of the track ? We can always discuss this on the forums. It's pointless to add that.

Plus, of course there aren't many rankings on PC. Just look at the number of ninjas there. And I don't think Ascension is too hard to be honest.

Papasmur
05-27-2015, 11:40 PM
Smilies, let ps4/xb1 players first get what they want since the ninja community is way bigger on those 2 platforms and we will get our 2s later :)

aMcConghie16
05-28-2015, 12:24 AM
Will 360 be getting new nj tracks?

Smilies2019
05-28-2015, 12:41 AM
Why would you add a level to the title of the track ? We can always discuss this on the forums. It's pointless to add that.

Plus, of course there aren't many rankings on PC. Just look at the number of ninjas there. And I don't think Ascension is too hard to be honest.

yes Ascesion isnt hard..but im talking about the amount of people who are able to pass it.
Im talking for the whole PC community, not just myself.

And for the level added to the title: wasnt that the discussion all about on the forum? to finaly get those levels?
And not every trials player use the forums.

PloosKy
05-28-2015, 06:52 AM
Uplay drops are for the easier tracks, the point in this ninja cross plat system is to bring the well deserved hard tracks cross platform. The hardest ones may not be passed but there will be easier tracks being cross plated + uplay drops. There's enough to go around, and on Xbox One almost every track can be passed.

TeriXeri
05-28-2015, 09:34 AM
awesome ninja's but they are way to hard for most people...
Do you want to reach a big playerbase or just the smal amount of pro ninja riders (PC is already dying)
i tought level 1-2 ninja's were priority?


On PC the last few months especially, seems the majority of native PC tracks being released (not counting FusionCommunity additions) is extreme (mostly ninja) with most of the time far less then 100 people finishing them.

So I am happy we at least got the seperate feeds now.

I guess it's great we get cross platform hard ninjas for the people who wanted them , and I understand the console community is way bigger still, since this is seperate from the regular uplay drops it can work.

I also hope there will be a few crossplatform level 1-2 in the mix once in a while so I can try my hand at them.

IImayneII
05-28-2015, 12:24 PM
Why would you add a level to the title of the track ? We can always discuss this on the forums. It's pointless to add that..


I wouldn't say pointless. I tought one of the reasons of the thread was to categorise the ninja's in their prope difficulty. I already mentioned it, but to me, discussing a difficulty afterwards is pointless. If I go on TC to play ninja's I want to know the difficulty before playing them. I don't want to test every ninja seperatly to see if I get stuck on the first obstacle or not.

LzZzR
05-28-2015, 12:35 PM
A very important part of the first drop is to gather more cross platform statistics in order to keep improving the scoring system. As we reach the conclusion on how the tracks will be rated it's possible to have a list of crossplatformed ninja tracks and their difficulties.

As this drop was very difficult you will get some easier tracks next time.

StormPsykoz
05-28-2015, 02:04 PM
I wouldn't say pointless. I tought one of the reasons of the thread was to categorise the ninja's in their prope difficulty. I already mentioned it, but to me, discussing a difficulty afterwards is pointless. If I go on TC to play ninja's I want to know the difficulty before playing them. I don't want to test every ninja seperatly to see if I get stuck on the first obstacle or not.

You can always check that on a tracklist, or ask other ninjas' opinion about it. Checking the leaderboards, watching replays are also alternate ways to have an idea about the difficulty of a track.

And I don't want to add a level to each of my track titles, first, because of what I mentioned.
Second, I'm the creator so my opinion on the level of my own track is the most subjective among all players.


A very important part of the first drop is to gather more cross platform statistics in order to keep improving the scoring system. As we reach the conclusion on how the tracks will be rated it's possible to have a list of crossplatformed ninja tracks and their difficulties.

I already did that on my Xbox One tracklist : https://sites.google.com/site/fusionntl/crossplatform-ninja-tracks
I also added tracks that have been recommended.

IImayneII
05-28-2015, 02:48 PM
You can always check that on a tracklist, or ask other ninjas' opinion about it. Checking the leaderboards, watching replays are also alternate ways to have an idea about the difficulty of a track.

And I don't want to add a level to each of my track titles, first, because of what I mentioned.
Second, I'm the creator so my opinion on the level of my own track is the most subjective among all players.





I tought the statistics where to get to a main general idea on what the difficulty of certain ninja levels are. Ofcourse it's not going to be the same for everyone, but that's because some people can do certain techniques better than others, that doesn't mean the difficulty is different. And I tought that's why there where statistics presented by RL. To try using them to define the proper difficulties better, not to use those statistics to categorise all tracks in a certain difficulty.

If I'm bad at a certain extreme obstacle, that doesn't mean it should be tagged a ninja obstacle because I am bad at it. I tought the idea was to get an objective feel about nina obstacle difficulty, not linking difficulties to a track when it's published. Because for example, when people can't distinguish level 1 and level 2 obstacles you can have one lvl2 obstacle in a lvl1 track that bumps the difficulty of the track to lvl 2 ninja for no reason besides it being badly designed.

Like you say yourself, as a creator your opinion on the level is subjective. And I tought this thread was looking for a method to avoid that subjectivity because it gives way for inconsistent difficulties. All I see now is a method that keeps the subjectivity of making a track and just tries slapping on a certain difficulty later depending on how people perform on it. Besides, if you ever want RL to implement ninja's officially in trials there should be descent guidelines for each ninja difficulty.

And yes I know this isn't an easy task, but it feels like this area isn't being explored anymore and everyone just settled on using statistics to add them to a certain difficulty. Maybe that was the goal all along and I just misunderstood but to me this method doesn't work well enough. Like I said, it doesn't take subjectivity out of creating a track. People can make a track with a combination of lvl1/lvl2/lvl3 obstacles and it would probably be rated lvl 3 by using statistics just because of one/two lvl3 obstacles that shouldn't even be in the track. Or it would be rated lvl2 and have lvl3 obstacles in the track.

Creating a track is always subjective, even on lower difficulties. But general rules seem to work for all the official difficulties so I don't see why you wouldn't explore the same path for ninja difficulties

RetiredRonin
05-28-2015, 03:07 PM
I feel like mayne is on the right track here. I was not aware we were making an out of game listing of these tracks with the difficulties. There needs to be something that builders can compare to and see how new or in progress tracks stack up in terms of difficulty so players on TC don't need to leave the game to see how difficult a specific track is. It really needs to be visible from the track info screen in TC.

MajorScam001
05-29-2015, 01:37 AM
Hi,

I’ll start by saying…I’ve only ever posted once before (as you can see) so for fear of upsetting some of you, I feel I should state the following disclaimer: “I do not claim to be in any way shape or form a ninja rider” I could possibly/maybe/if am lucky after multiple restarts and rage quits, finish what most of you would probably class as a level 2. But I’ve played trials games religiously since the flash days, therefore believe I have a good understanding of most things trials (apart from the editor, cough-cough)

Anyway...having just read this thread I ‘jotted’ down the following.......

Any track with a fender grab, back wheel under-swing, prolonged incline above ‘x’ degrees, requires mild throttle control, has a chain of 2 or more consecutive extreme obstacles in one check point, has jumps/gaps or walls that require basic slide assistance or bike/rider manipulation (during take-off, in the air or on the ground) or very basic wheel balance/jumps (either front or back) a level 1

Any track with a prolonged incline above ‘x’ degrees, requires stable throttle control, has slightly modified extreme obstacles (to make them harder), has jumps/gaps or walls that require either slight slide assistance or bike/rider manipulation (during take-off, in the air or on the ground) or basic wheel balance/jumps (either front or back) a level 2

Any track with a prolonged incline above ‘x’ degrees, requires hardened throttle control, has modified extreme obstacles, has jumps/gaps or walls that require either proficient slide assistance or bike/rider manipulation (during take-off, in the air or on the ground) or proficient wheel balance/jumps (either front or back) level 3

Any track with prolonged incline above ‘x’ degrees, requires acute throttle control, has heavily modified extreme obstacles, has jump/gaps or walls that require either acute slide assistance or bike/rider manipulation (during take-off, in the air or on the ground) or acute wheel balance/jumps (either front or back) level 4

Any track with prolonged incline above ‘x’ degrees, requires ‘god like’ throttle control, has heavily modified extreme obstacle which require god like execution to pass, has jumps/gaps or walls that require either god like slide assistance or bike/rider manipulation (during take-off, in the air or on the ground) or god like wheel balance/jumps (either front or back) level 5

Note lower levels fit into higher levels but higher levels obviously don’t fit into lower levels.

‘x’ = an as of yet undecided value per level (increasing each level. For example 70 lvl 1, 80 lvl 2, 85 lvl 3, 90 lvl 4 and 95 lvl 5)

Basic = average

Proficient = above average

Acute = on the limit of ‘do ability’ (requires almost perfect execution i.e. 90% or above)

God like = at the limit of ‘do ability’ (requires perfect execution i.e. 96% or above)

I’d written it, so just thought I’d share it……….

love you

scarrha34
05-29-2015, 09:16 AM
Is it a troll ?

LzZzR
05-29-2015, 11:18 AM
Freezing Point is now available on PS4 and X1. Give it a try!

Hairy Cabbage
05-29-2015, 01:27 PM
Hi,

I’ll start by saying…I’ve only ever posted once before (as you can see) so for fear of upsetting some of you, I feel I should state the following disclaimer: “I do not claim to be in any way shape or form a ninja rider” I could possibly/maybe/if am lucky after multiple restarts and rage quits, finish what most of you would probably class as a level 2. But I’ve played trials games religiously since the flash days, therefore believe I have a good understanding of most things trials (apart from the editor, cough-cough)

Anyway...having just read this thread I ‘jotted’ down the following.......

Any track with a fender grab, back wheel under-swing, prolonged incline above ‘x’ degrees, requires mild throttle control, has a chain of 2 or more consecutive extreme obstacles in one check point, has jumps/gaps or walls that require basic slide assistance or bike/rider manipulation (during take-off, in the air or on the ground) or very basic wheel balance/jumps (either front or back) a level 1

Any track with a prolonged incline above ‘x’ degrees, requires stable throttle control, has slightly modified extreme obstacles (to make them harder), has jumps/gaps or walls that require either slight slide assistance or bike/rider manipulation (during take-off, in the air or on the ground) or basic wheel balance/jumps (either front or back) a level 2

Any track with a prolonged incline above ‘x’ degrees, requires hardened throttle control, has modified extreme obstacles, has jumps/gaps or walls that require either proficient slide assistance or bike/rider manipulation (during take-off, in the air or on the ground) or proficient wheel balance/jumps (either front or back) level 3

Any track with prolonged incline above ‘x’ degrees, requires acute throttle control, has heavily modified extreme obstacles, has jump/gaps or walls that require either acute slide assistance or bike/rider manipulation (during take-off, in the air or on the ground) or acute wheel balance/jumps (either front or back) level 4

Any track with prolonged incline above ‘x’ degrees, requires ‘god like’ throttle control, has heavily modified extreme obstacle which require god like execution to pass, has jumps/gaps or walls that require either god like slide assistance or bike/rider manipulation (during take-off, in the air or on the ground) or god like wheel balance/jumps (either front or back) level 5

Note lower levels fit into higher levels but higher levels obviously don’t fit into lower levels.

‘x’ = an as of yet undecided value per level (increasing each level. For example 70 lvl 1, 80 lvl 2, 85 lvl 3, 90 lvl 4 and 95 lvl 5)

Basic = average

Proficient = above average

Acute = on the limit of ‘do ability’ (requires almost perfect execution i.e. 90% or above)

God like = at the limit of ‘do ability’ (requires perfect execution i.e. 96% or above)

I’d written it, so just thought I’d share it……….

love you

Tracks CAN'T be rated based on the obstacles. It has been said many times before, and it looks like it will be said many more times in the future. There are so many issues with your suggestion that its not even worth starting to try and list them all. Just take a second to think about it and you will see why your entire suggestion wouldnt really show the difficulty of a track.

Here is just a single example of why it wont work:

Take the two obstacles below. The obstacle on the left is a high 90 degree wall which would be level 4 using your conditions. The obstacle on the right is a 95 degree wall which would be level 5. The level 4 obstacle is a LOT harder than the level 5 obstacle?

http://i.imgur.com/PQRiw8D.png
The moral of this example? greater angle =/= harder obstacle.

IImayneII
05-29-2015, 03:26 PM
Tracks CAN'T be rated based on the obstacles.

I think you mean tracks can't be rated based on oversimplified parameters of obstacles. Tracks get rated by their obstacles all the time.

LzZzR
06-05-2015, 11:00 AM
New ninjas! Pirates-Gold, Sedonia and Gotei Gakusei are now available on PS4, X1 and PC!
And don't forget the to check out The Punisher I and II by VEGASTRASH01.

StormPsykoz
06-05-2015, 11:24 AM
Sweet :)

smilies123
06-05-2015, 12:07 PM
awesome tracks...love them.

LzZzR
06-18-2015, 11:07 AM
New ninja tracks available! Six-hundred feet under, Inertia and Gargantua [7] are now available on PS4, X1 and PC!

StormPsykoz
06-19-2015, 01:41 PM
Sweet :)

About the way I pick the tracks, I thought about something new :

2 easy tracks (level 1-2-3) & 1 hard track (level 4-5) per drop.

I decided to change due to many people requesting harder tracks, and that way I can satisfy all kinds of ninja players :p

LzZzR
06-29-2015, 07:28 AM
Beyond the Tree Tops, Prospector and Templosif are now available on PS4, X1 and PC!
Good luck with Templosif, it's brutal.

StormPsykoz
06-29-2015, 08:31 AM
I'm gonna have fun with Templosif lol. Good luck as well to anyone else who tries it :)

Edit : welp

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2015/27/1435572477-lol.png

Hairy Cabbage
06-29-2015, 03:22 PM
^o^

fleskeknoke
06-29-2015, 03:46 PM
^^
opps... thats not for me
but really really nice to see such hard tracks being crossplatform =)

StormPsykoz
07-14-2015, 12:35 PM
New crossplatform ninja tracks are up :)

Shafted, Treatment Plant Ninja & Wooden lair. Good luck with Shafted lol.

aMcConghie16
07-16-2015, 12:01 AM
Hey SP just got an xboxone loving the new ninja tracks:)

StormPsykoz
07-20-2015, 11:08 PM
Glad to see you're liking them :)

I just made some updates to my ninja tracklist site, introducing first a new way to rate tracks : https://sites.google.com/site/fusionntl/home/borderline-ninja-tracks

An important thing that everyone should read & understand before saying "it's subjective, it won't work" : It's the way I will rate tracks, and I won't take any opinion in account. If you don't agree with me on some tracks' ratings, you're free to do so but I won't start/take part to any debates about that. Listening to everyone's opinion for a rating is just not possible nowadays.
Plus, there won't be any further changes to the tracks that are already listed & rated. Same for the tracks that I haven't listed yet. If I put a track in the level 4 category, then it will stay as level 4 & will never change. Once again, you're free to disagree, but I won't change my opinion.

I'm also preparing a guide to show the most efficient progress through the ninja levels & tracks. This will take some time to write but I will inform you when it's done :)

LzZzR
07-21-2015, 10:41 AM
As I don't feel this is the right place to discuss Crossplatform Ninja Tracks I moved the discussion to a new thread: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1203332-Community-Ninja-Tracks