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View Full Version : Why not make all maps available offline



ddsflyer
04-08-2004, 12:33 PM
Is there a technical reason that all the maps cannot be made available offline in the future in the QMB?

Baron pilots do it with class!

ddsflyer
04-08-2004, 12:33 PM
Is there a technical reason that all the maps cannot be made available offline in the future in the QMB?

Baron pilots do it with class!

DuxCorvan
04-09-2004, 08:44 AM
Bump!

I want all maps in QMB. Only three maps is absurd.

MAstaKFC
04-09-2004, 09:37 AM
I agree too. With only 56k dialup now, I usually fight my battles offline and tinker with the QMB. Can we please have more maps included? Thanks!

Chuck_Older
04-09-2004, 10:19 AM
Sounds reasonable


In the meantime, I urge you to become familiar with the FMB. It is actually quite easy to use

*****************************
Punk Rockers in the UK, they won't notice anyway. They're all too busy fighting for a good place under the lighting~ Clash

oFZo
04-09-2004, 10:26 AM
Learn FMB, it is VERY easy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-oFZo

Eurotroll

"I have given you all the seed bearing plants and herbs to use." - The Bible

ddsflyer
04-09-2004, 11:36 AM
FMB is too tedious. I'm waiting for Uber Demon to finish his adaptation to Aces update but I still think there is really no reason not to have all the maps available offline!

Baron pilots do it with class!

[This message was edited by ddsflyer on Fri April 09 2004 at 03:51 PM.]

lbhskier37
04-09-2004, 12:41 PM
Oleg has previously stated that making more maps available in QMB take a ton of work. I can imagine because you would have to program waypoints for everything put in there, including ground vehicles.

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/pics/Killasig3.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&whereauthorid=lbhkilla&comefrom=display&ts=1049772896)
Official "uber190n00b"
"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be." Adolf Galland

plumps_
04-09-2004, 12:42 PM
It's not a technical reason. The reason is that pre-programming all the possible missions we can choose in QMB for all the other maps is even more tedious than using the FMB.

It was a nice surprise to see a new map in the QMB in AEP while in FB they had only the same maps as in IL-2.

-----------------------------------
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ddsflyer
04-09-2004, 04:25 PM
It seems to me that the maps are already there in the program, they just need to be ported to QMB. I would like to hear from someone like Oleg with the technical expertise to say why or why not.

Baron pilots do it with class!

plumps_
04-09-2004, 05:01 PM
So you want to fly on empty maps, without any aircraft or targets? Try to be serious.

This has been discussed a hundred times. Use the forum search, maybe you'll find Oleg's answer. But why don't you believe those who have been reading these forums for a long time?

-----------------------------------
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ddsflyer
04-09-2004, 05:38 PM
Ooooh, nasty. Maybe I would just like a change of scenery.

Baron pilots do it with class!

LEXX_Luthor
04-09-2004, 06:00 PM
You know, for pure air~air dogfight, it should be very easy to have all maps in QMB. You can keep waypoints the same and change maps, provided no aircraft is set to takeoff or land.

I do this all the time in FMB. I have a mission set up for a pure dogfight over Smolensk, then want the same thing over Stalingrad Winter map. All I do is go into mission text file and change map name--you find the correct name by making a mission for each map and saving it to look at with WordPad or something.

But, this won't allow any surface units or aircraft taking off or landing.

Chuck_Older
04-09-2004, 06:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddsflyer:
I would like to hear from someone like Oleg with the technical expertise to say why or why not.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The answer may easily be: We are busy working on Battle of Britain and PF

Which is not a cop-out, or an unreasonable answer, BTW

*****************************
Punk Rockers in the UK, they won't notice anyway. They're all too busy fighting for a good place under the lighting~ Clash

Cpt_MiB
04-09-2004, 08:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by plumps_:
So you want to fly on empty maps, without any aircraft or targets? Try to be serious.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

actually i do that quite a lot, its nice to explore the different areas of the map you cant get to while in a mission

artjunky
04-09-2004, 09:20 PM
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> Learn FMB, it is VERY easy </pre>

FMB is fairly easy to learn but not very good. It's a VERY slow process to make and load a mission. Even if you have already flown something that you like to fly, it's difficult to find again in the labyrinth of missions with no descriptions. I would fly tons of missions if there were a way to look through them with out having to load each and every mission one by one before you can even tell what is in it. This is a MAJOR flaw.

This original post, like all the reast that I have seen for the past 2 years indicate that there is a structural flaw in the programmatical design of the FMB. All the complaints point to the fact that FMB doesn't work and QMB is hardly extensive enough.

I have heard people mention Uber Demon as a solution. My problem with Uber Demon is that it is much too convoluted to use. It just isn't intuitive enough. The attraction of QMB is that it is unanimously intuitive and works exactly the way people expect a sim of this quality to work. Perhaps an update is in the works for redesign in future versions. In that case, I can wait. But to say that things are just fine takes a bit of self deception. Let's demand better. Perhaps we will get it.

&lt;p align="center"&gt;img src="http://www.artjunky.com/phantomfighters/images/419x100phantomfighters01.gif" alt="Phantom Fighters" width="419" height="100" border="0"&gt;&lt;/***

Chuck_Older
04-09-2004, 09:35 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by artjunky:
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> Learn FMB, it is VERY easy </pre>

FMB is fairly easy to learn but not very good. It's a VERY slow process to make and load a mission. Even if you have already flown something that you like to fly, it's difficult to find again in the labyrinth of missions with no descriptions. I would fly tons of missions if there were a way to look through them with out having to load each and every mission one by one before you can even tell what is in it. This is a MAJOR flaw.

This original post, like all the reast that I have seen for the past 2 years indicate that there is a structural flaw in the programmatical design of the FMB. All the complaints point to the fact that FMB doesn't work and QMB is hardly extensive enough.

QUOTE]

I do not understand you on two points:

1) If you can't find a mission, I don't know what to say, except: you have mistakenly thought that the missions should be saved in FMB. This is not a Major Flaw, rather, I feel you have overlooked something:

Your completed missions should be saved in Single Mission folders ("Save As", in the FMB). Then they are accessed through the Single Mission menu, just like Single missions that shipped with FB. In FMB, there is a provision to make a breifing and a short description. The short description is what you need to organise your missions.

If you save all your missions in FMB, you are missing out on the ability to peruse your missions. But that isn't FMB's fault- you just overlooked one of it's features http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I save missions in the FMB when I want to use that mission as a template. The finished product goes into a mission folder. There's a selection tree. You may have to make a folder sometimes (Like my Bf-109 E4 folder).

and,
2) What exactly doesn't work in FMB? You say it "doesn't work". Could you explain?

*****************************
Get your car outta that gear ~ Clash

LEXX_Luthor
04-09-2004, 11:26 PM
For quick mission building FMB works great once you learn it but for making detailed realistic missions, FMB is a real Bear.

artjunky:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This original post, like all the rest that I have seen for the past 2 years indicate that there is a structural flaw in the programmatical design of the FMB.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is much insight here. AI does not operate on large enough scale. The 4 plane maximum is not enough when you want to launch many aircraft and have them join in a desired formation. Takes extreme FMB skill and even more mission testing to accomplish this.

A great example of total FMB programming failure is the lack of a Full Zoom Out command--clicking on that tiny scroll bar is a pain. FMB is a pain even for me, but then I push it beyond what it was designed for, and it still has infinite buried deep within. Very deep.

For quick mission building, I suggest making mission templates that can be easily modified for use with different aircraft types. Also, name the file 0Fb109Email.mis for example. Mission that I use most often I put zero (0) in front of the name as the files are listed alphabetically and numbers come before letters.

GRYPHON_401Cdn
04-09-2004, 11:50 PM
See the 'New Maps for Old' post. It may be possible to get lots of new online maps without much effort from Maddox games. The QMB has a programmatic time penalty that doesnt bode well if they are working on a new game.

Chuck_Older
04-10-2004, 07:15 AM
I agree with some of that Lexx, but it's not total programming failure at all. It works, doesn't it? It's not as if there is no feature that allows zoon, correct? Four plane groups- yes I hate that- but that is another inconvenience rather than failure- failure means that planes wouldn't get on the map at all.

It is unintuitive and difficult to understand why they did it that way, but it does work.


I also would argue that no matter how poor the AI is, that doesn't mean that the FMB doesn't work. It's not the Full Artificial Intelligence Buider, after all.

AI problems and FMB problems exist, but I can't see how they are products of each other regarding the FMB.

*****************************
Get your car outta that gear ~ Clash

LEXX_Luthor
04-10-2004, 08:50 AM
Yes it works but the sad thing is that FMB development stopped cold long ago. Think about the missed possibilities of what we could be using now. Uber FMB. UFMB. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

AI and FMB should be integrated somehow, maybe in future flight sims. Placement of Chinese ground observers for Flying Tigers or for FP island coast watchers for example.

Perhaps more important is that mission files are text files and can we can write programs that read the eventlog file and then write new mission files. This was brilliantly simple thinking on the part of Oleg. By comparison the LOMAC Bizzaro files are a disaster given LOMAC gave up early on dynamic campaigns.

artjunky
04-10-2004, 09:34 AM
Yes, the zoom thing is one of the more annoying things.

I should clearify something about my "complaint." When Forgotten Battles came out, one of the new features was search lights at night. I have yet to fly a mission with searchlights. I have gone looking in FMB for a mission that had this "feature" but because of the nature of FMB, I couldn't find a mission of this sort. Forgotten Battles and the FMB fails here because it doesn't allow you to view the description of the mission until it is loaded. To compound the problem, most people don't build missions with very good descriptions.

The way I see it, FMB lacks an interface on the outside of the mission builder that allows you to see the contents of the mission. When people build missions, if FMB were structurally adequate, there would be a way to select a pulldown of general characteristics for that mission. Those general descriptions would then show up in some sort of interface when opening a mission. As it works now, you pretty much have to open the mission before you can see what the mission is. Total waste of time.

Target Pulldowns
1. Air to Air,
2. Air to Ground
3. Sea Mission
...
Location Pulldown
1. Normandy
2. Moscow
...
Enemy Planes Pulldown
Time of Day pull down.

If this were put in place, people wanting to choose from missions could either see descriptions of mission or search for missions using the pull downs.

I do web design for a living and am required to spend a great deal of time learning new technologies in my spare time. It doesn't leave much time to play and I, for the most part, don't want to have to become an expert in the finer details of FMB. You know, I just want to fly. I want to open the game pick a few variables and go. I fly mostly online or QMB. Occasionally, I fly a campaign. It's about flying not building.


The attraction to QMB is it's simplicity, one can sellect his or her plane, pick a few other variables and within minutes, you can be flying. During that time in QMB, I tweek it just slightly. I add a few bombers or take a few away. I give them ammo or take it away. I ad one or two fighters...In each of these, it takes only seconds and I am back to flying.

FMB just needs more of this sort of streamlining. That's all. Oh, yes, it's clunky too.

Chuck_Older
04-10-2004, 10:20 AM
AJ, I am so confused by your standpoint...all you have to do is name the mission something like "P-38vs4XJU88Finlandhazy" to remind yourself that it's a flight of P-38s that you fly against 4 JU-88s over Finland in poor weather. Then, in the short descrpition, you put in details to specify the finer points if need be.

Then, under single missions, you select the mission subfolder and use the menu there.

I appreciate you are busy. So am I. Especially now, because the good weather is here and I have to prep my car for a car show on the 2nd of May. I still need to work 40+ hours a week, insulate an attic for a cousin, repair another cousin's car, and do work on my Dad's house and property. So you aren't surprising me by saying: Time is precious.

But what I'm reading in your post is that you don't care if there is a way to do what you need FMB to do regarding mission descriptions, you can't or won't be bothered to find out how.

That's a shame, because it would do exactly what you're looking to do, and it is literally as easy as clicking "Save As" rather than "Save", and then select a folder: Dogfight, Single Mission, Coop. Under Single Mission (which is how you would save an FMB file to make a QMB type mission) you then select country, and then aircraft.

It's literally an extra three or four clicks on the mouse. If need be, you might be forced to make a new folder and name it for the aircraft or country. But it's just an empty folder named "US" or "Bf-109E4" or whatver is missing.

I just can't beleive you think a couple clicks and a drag n drop is work- I know better http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

And FMB will save a template mission in the FMB folder, so you can just do those little tweeks you mentioned: adding a bomber, taking away a fighter, etc. If you have a mouse wheel, I find it actually easier to select an aircraft type in FMB, because you can see and select the plane without being under "aircraft customization" like in QMB.

Seriously, in the time it took to reply to this thread, you could have learned to make FMB do what you want it to do, and make it categorise your missions with a descriptive name and short message to clarify if you needed it to, all while looking like it was a mission that shipped with FB.

Is it intuitive? Nope. Is it easy and quick to make a simple QMB type mission with FMB? Yup.

I can't make you do it, but telling me it's just too hard or takes too long to understand FMB sounds like an excuse. I'm all for convenience myself, but you make it sound like learning Latin. It's more like learning the hokey pokey http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

*****************************
Get your car outta that gear ~ Clash

artjunky
04-10-2004, 10:29 AM
http://www.artjunky.com/phantomfighters/images/FMBscreen01.gif

Yes, creating your own own mission with a descriptive title in the name is fine. I'm just saying for those of us, with busy lives, that don't really want to deal with building missions, this interface is the problem.

There is nothing on the front to indicate what you are opening. The only delineation is Net, Campaign, and Single. Other than the country, you have to open each mission to find out what is in it.

artjunky
04-10-2004, 10:41 AM
There are thousands of missions out there that on any day would work to fulfull my sim desires. With SO many missions already created, why would I need to build one?

My complaint isn't that there is no way to name missions with descriptions that make sense but that FMB doesn't facilitate easy access to the nature of each mission without opening it. In my case, that is whare QMB succeeds. It is easy to use and VERY quick.

Within seconds, I am flying. FMB, cannot claim the same turnaround.

The solution is to make FMB easier to use or to reprogram QMB to access more maps and situations.

artjunky
04-10-2004, 10:55 AM
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> Seriously, in the time it took to reply to this thread, you could have learned to make FMB do what you want it to do, </pre>

In a way you are right,I know, and talking about this is all such a waste of time.

My point here is to say that FMB can really use an upgrade. The first reaction, invariably, of everyone I know who first tried to operate FMB was, "This sucks!" And it really does stink.

But I have to laugh at myself because this really shouldn't be taken so seriously. And for that reason, I'm going to politely bail out of this conversation for now.

LEXX_Luthor
04-10-2004, 11:47 AM
Well, the problem with FMB is that its so great it just begs for being even better but they stopped developing it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

LOL how many FMB people here goto http://www.il2skins.com and scroll down the plane list and PANIC that they will let the mouse slip outside the list box? FMB usage causes me to have Panic Attacks whenever I scroll through any list box now in any program.

UberDemon
04-10-2004, 12:45 PM
[I posted this in the General Discussion, but I think I can add to the info here since I had a bit of experience with the QMB template building process.]

Actually I can shed some light into the QMB process, because I actually built a set of templates for Oleg. Unfortunately the Small Finland Gulf set I made did not get included for one reason or another by Oleg's team. No matter, I may include those templates in one of the UQMG upgrades in the future.

The QMB templates are based in a single mission. Each mission has to be built from scratch, and tested for overall performance. There are several criteria for the mission, and I know what they are, but I will not discuss that here because it would take way too long.

There are 4 types of mission per team. Each mission is different. So to build a full template for QMB means designing 8 fully operational missions for each map. And off course testing them. (So each team gets a Air Combat, one Attack to Ground Units, one Attack to Bridges, and one Attack to Airfield mission)

All objects in the mission are included, except for AAA batteries (and I mean only the AAA guns), which are optional. Basically every mission will be the same because you will have the same objects in the ground, if there are any included in the mission.

So there is no programming per se for the mission. It is solely a built mission which is included within the FB files.

Once the missions are deemed useful then they have to import the 8 missions into the FB files, and have to do some programming for the FB GUI to include the map as a choice in the QMB menu.

The biggest part of the work is building the missions.

If you are not working on the missions full-time, and you are a guy like me, who has to use weekends and nights to work on this hobby... then you are probably talking a week worth of work just to build the missions. If everything goes perfectly...

So to enable all maps, that is 31 maps minus the 4 included, that is 27... That is roughly 27 weeks for one person to work on it on spare time. I'd say that a full set of missions could be built in 2-days if the person works full-time. You are still talking one and a half months worth of work just on that...

It is pretty overwhelming.

Now, UQMG, the program I wrote is much more complex than the QMB. It took me roughly 3 years to achieve what it is now. UQMG is different from QMB because QMB is a mission generator, based on a already built mission. UQMG is a misison builder, meaning it actually builds missions based on several data sets.

IN anyway, I hope this adds to this discussion.

Also, please note I am working on an upgrade for UQMG that will include AEP.

Demon/UberDemon
www.uberdemon.com (http://www.uberdemon.com)

ddsflyer
04-10-2004, 09:39 PM
Artjunky just hit the nail on the head. Streamlining and variability is what I want. My playing habits are similar to his. I am a busy professional (you can tell what by my login name) and have neither the time or inclination to spend my time using FMB. When UberDemon's AEP version is finished I will rejoice but for really quick and instant gratification, QMB is the best.

Baron pilots do it with class!