PDA

View Full Version : The Germans



XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:13 PM
I noticed that the Germans created many futuristic planes' designs in the late WW2.

So futuristic that it is considered 'futuristic' even in today aviation world. Something too advanced, way too advanced.

My question is, why did they do that? Why did they designed planes that are so advanced? Considering the factors that resources and pilots are low in numbers at the time.

And are they so sure that the futuristic planes can beat the Allies prop. warplanes?

<center>

http://www.geocities.com/warhawk530/AVG.jpg


'It is the Courage, not the score, that counts ...' - Mohd Naqiuddin

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:13 PM
I noticed that the Germans created many futuristic planes' designs in the late WW2.

So futuristic that it is considered 'futuristic' even in today aviation world. Something too advanced, way too advanced.

My question is, why did they do that? Why did they designed planes that are so advanced? Considering the factors that resources and pilots are low in numbers at the time.

And are they so sure that the futuristic planes can beat the Allies prop. warplanes?

<center>

http://www.geocities.com/warhawk530/AVG.jpg


'It is the Courage, not the score, that counts ...' - Mohd Naqiuddin

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 01:43 PM
I`ve often wondered this. Even when it was just about all over they kept coming out with some ingenious ideas. I guess the Germans just had some pretty good technical guys who were willing to push that bit further with their theories- and try them. Some were crap, but a lot worked. The rest of the world were still more or less working to old ideas.
The fact that the US nicked most of them and a lot of the weapons we see today stemmed from the German designs prove it.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 02:20 PM
The Germans were not so unique in this. The same fetish for uber advanced ideas could be found in the *early* 1930s Soviet experiments which were decades ahead in concept, yet the designers often were tossed into prison by Stalin. Like the Germans a decade later, its almost like a desperate act of creativity, yet, largely because of purges of professional military and designers, USSR left with pants down naked in 1941. Astoninishing stuff, mostly unknown in the west.

First flying wing bombers and fighters were Chyeranovskii's, as well as numerous tailess single engine experiments.

Most amazing was Belyayev's amazingly glazed windowed twin boom forward sweep flying wing flying bomber DB~LK (you gotta see a pic). Flew 1940 and outperformed rival IL~4. Can't describe in words.

Karhkov KhAI's (maker of FB's R~10) KhAI~3 flying wing with two side by side glazed canopies, and KhAI~4 tailess Burt~Rutan~esque pusher prop.

Kalinin's monstruous 6-engine K~7 twin boom bomber, originally designed to carry 120 passengers in wing, and twin engine flying wing bomber K~12.

BOK's flying wing bok-5...basically looks like flying wing I~16.

Vakhmstrov's TB~3 + fighter combinations, which we will soon get a very minor taste of in FB.

All designers added ramjets to their biplanes fighters.

Greatest attempts at high altitude flight.

Also, Soviets made more 1930s attempts at ornithopters (flapping wing machines).

You should see some of the other exotic yet practical designs made, yet VVS, like all other airforces, was very conservative in accepting new designs.

Odd that there was so much enthusiasm for wild experiments, as flight test failure often resulted in arrest (and later releace). Kalinin was shot.

Cpt.LoneRanger
07-07-2003, 02:24 PM
I think there were many reasons.

For one of the most important, Hitler himself forced the programs for new and revolutionary weapons, as he knew technical advantage was also an advantage in the war.

We see that in the programs that lead to the V1 and V2, but also in other areas. There is still a saying among the GI-WW2-Veterans, that says the MG42 was only invented to show the rest of the world, how a good MG can work. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Besides that, German engineers experimented very early on new and revolutionary designs. They began even before the WW2, but with lack of funds, most of them were laid on ice, until the famous BattleOfBritain, where Hitler realized, that the current arsenal was not designed for this kind of task.
Still, most of the designs were declined or failed due to the lack of resources, the destroyed facilities or simply because their ideas only work with modern technology.
The same applies to the nuclear bomb. There were plans to deliver a nuclear warhead to Washington, DC or NewYork, to force the US to retreat, but the lack of facilities and supplies delayed the production. There was even a plan to supply Japan with the neccessary know-how, to build a nuklear weapon, but the sub with the data was sunk.

After the war most of the engineers were.... "invited" by the US or Russian government to work for them and in fact, the space-program of both nations was lead by former German engineers. (Werner von Braun, etc)

Even now, there are still projects, that originated on German designs, like the B2-Spirit, for example /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 02:34 PM
-
- Even now, there are still projects, that originated
- on German designs, like the B2-Spirit, for example

how advanced the germans back then can be.

to my knowledge, b2-spirit is one of the best a/c currently. sort of like the f-117 nitehawk.




<center>

http://www.geocities.com/warhawk530/AVG.jpg


'It is the Courage, not the score, that counts ...' - Mohd Naqiuddin

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 02:38 PM
any website on those advanced germans a/c?

<center>

http://www.geocities.com/warhawk530/AVG.jpg


'It is the Courage, not the score, that counts ...' - Mohd Naqiuddin

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 02:46 PM
Infact, many believe that their numerous programs of secret weapons and futuristic warplanes infact didn't help the germans during the war, as the ressources they used for these couldn't be used for more realistic and useful programs.

The extremely high number of programs they tried to use while having limited means and the LW's lack of massive training program (the formed few but efficient airmen first, and then, as the need for new aircrews raised, many badly trained ones) cost them a lot in the air war against the allies (which, however, they couldn't have won simply because they had not enough ressources, material and human ones, to confront the more and more aicraft with better and better pilots the allies had).

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 02:49 PM
Yep, though there are several bad links on the page. There's still plenty of info.
http://www.luft46.com

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 02:53 PM
Becouse Germans there are the ├┼ôbermenschen /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://trombke.bei.t-online.de/ossi_sign2.jpg.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 04:16 PM
They were UberUber !!Look!

http://www.reichsflugscheiben.de/

http://www.kheichhorn.de/html/body_sonderwaffen.html

++ 88.IAP_Manuc ++

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 05:23 PM
Because we are eatin a lot

- Sauerkraut
- Schnitzel

drinkin to much German Bier

and some of us Idiots watching to much Fu├čball ;-)))))

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 05:27 PM
krause wrote:
- Because we are eatin a lot
-
-- Sauerkraut
-- Schnitzel
-
- drinkin to much German Bier
-
- and some of us Idiots watching to much Fu├čball
- ;-)))))


http://forum.gamestar.de/vbb/images/smilies/prost.gif


<hr><p align=center><font size=+1>Servus!
</font>
http://mitglied.lycos.de/anonym80/Signatur.gif (http://520082849836-0000.bei.t-online.de/)

"Es gibt keine schlechten Flugzeuge, nur schlechte Piloten"
<hr>

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 05:34 PM
http://www.bierfranken.de/gfx/bier.jpg


http://trombke.bei.t-online.de/ossi_sign2.jpg.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 05:38 PM
The B2 design did NOT originate from the German's, please check it again. The United States had working prototypes even before the German's version, you might ask to why the USA had not used it, it was simple, they made a final decision to just mass produce 'regular' technology into they armed forces instead of developing new ones that they can't prove if it will work or not against their enemy.




http://fluxout.homestead.com/files/Thx-32x.jpg


"You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to frighten you"

Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 05:45 PM
I don't think the German futuristic aircraft programs badly affected the number of aircraft produced or resulted in the loss of the air war. In the spring of 1944 the Lutfwaffe underwent a major reshuffle and switched almost entirely to fighter production while the factorys where dispersed around the country making them less vulnerable to air attack. In september 1944 some 1,605 Me 109's where delivered to the Luftwaffe out of a total of 14,212 for that year. The last 3 months of the year saw another 3 thousand delivered and 100's more where foudn in the factories on the assemble line. It is estimated that over 33,000 Me 109's where built during the war more than any other plane in the world.Pilots would often show up a depots and find 100's of the latest Me 109s like the G-10 G-14 and K series just sitting there and they where told take one and bugger off. The found it simpler to take a new plane rather than repair and old one. The problem was fuel and pilot training. Perhaps in other area's of the war it had an effect like the V-1 and V-2 rockets could of produced numerous tanks and equipment that possible could of made some kind of difference. Or once the Me 262 became available to concentrate on that for the immedaiate future as opposed to developing other plane that would of not been available in the near future,

Just my 2 cent on the topic

Cpt.LoneRanger
07-07-2003, 06:16 PM
NTESLA wrote:
- The B2 design did NOT originate from the German's,
- please check it again. The United States had
- working prototypes even before the German's version,
- you might ask to why the USA had not used it, it was
- simple, they made a final decision to just mass
- produce 'regular' technology into they armed forces
- instead of developing new ones that they can't prove
- if it will work or not against their enemy.


Sorry, but the original design was developed as a long range bomber by the German Luftwaffe. It was first developed as a plane with 2 propellers, one facing aft, one on the nose. It was later redesigned to fit 2 turbine engines, but it still was too unstable, since it had no tailfin and it couldn't carry more load, than any existing bomber, so it was cancelled.

After the war the developements tried several versions of the Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe and all those little toys developed in Penem├╝nde.
The wing-only-design was then reactivated, when the stealth technology became a top priority and with the modern technology, it was now possible to keep such a design in the air.

Ironically, I've only been 4 weeks to the US, but watched exactly this on the history channel. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

Cpt.LoneRanger
07-07-2003, 06:29 PM
PS:

Look for the Gotha Go229 A-0, if you don't believe it!

It's the jet-propelled version. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 06:41 PM
I don't think the German futuristic aircraft programs badly affected the number of aircraft produced or resulted in the loss of the air war. In the spring of 1944 the Lutfwaffe underwent a major reshuffle and switched almost entirely to fighter production while the factorys where dispersed around the country making them less vulnerable to air attack.

not only less vulnerable in 44 the allied wasnt first priority to bomb factorys any longer, it was clearly seen taht the war is already won.
So they switched to bomb Dresden and co.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 07:16 PM
Doesn't really matter how many planes you produce if you haven't got any pilots, fuel or can't transport them to where they need to be.

Dresden is another issue (what you Pipgig say is somewhat wide of the mark from a historical perspective) - and one of many acts that may seem questionable today but were undoubtedly borne of a desire to win the war and also to show British domestic opinion that Britain was fighting back.

One might argue that the British approach to area bombing is a logical continuation of tactics learned from the Nazis from Guernica to Coventry to Leningrad. In fact the Germans were bombing civilians in London in WW1.

Doesn't make it right as we look at it today maybe but I don't think WW2 was fought with any particular regard for 21st century morality.

Cpt.LoneRanger
07-07-2003, 07:17 PM
- not only less vulnerable in 44 the allied wasnt
- first priority to bomb factorys any longer, it was
- clearly seen taht the war is already won.
- So they switched to bomb Dresden and co.

Hmmmmm...?

After the first major attack on London, RAF attacked Berlin in a daring mission. It was a night mission and the RAF, with this success in mind, tried to bomb several targets during daylight in the following weeks. It took heavy losses.
When the US-AirForce joined the bombing raids, they took the role of daylight attacks against factories and other key production facilities and supply lines, whereas the RAF bombed the cities at night.
It was that way until late in the war, when the level-bombardments were concentrated around the area of Berlin and the fortifications around it.

The incident in Dresden, which was only the one with the highest number of human casualities, was a plan to hit the civilians an revugees in the city and was planned and coordinated by the RAF-command. The first wave were RAF-Bombers, that set the city afire. The second wave, RAF bombers, too, dropped Frag-Bombs and HE-Bombs to hit the fleeing people and destroy the water lines. The third wave consisted of B17, that dropped frag-bombs on the areas the RAF had missed. For the next 48 hours ground attack planes shot every refugee, that tried to flee out of Dresden.
They declared this attack as a warning, that there was no way they could win the war, but it had almost been the end of Churchills career.
This kind of massive bombardement was cancelled thereafter.

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 07:20 PM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
- Even now, there are still projects, that originated
- on German designs, like the B2-Spirit, for example



Uh...no. Not by a longshot.

The B-2 was not "based" on anything...the physical appearance of a plane is not sufficient to claim such an absurdity.




---------------------------------

From a big bird in the sky,
All will jump and some will die.
Off to battle we will go,
To live or die, hell, I don't know.
Hail oh hail oh INFANTRY!
Queen of Battle, follow me!
An Airborne Ranger's life for me,
Oh, nothing in this world is free.

Cowace2
Commanding Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"

http://www.7jg77.com

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 07:37 PM
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/bombers/xb35-9.jpg



This is the design the Northrop B-2 Spirit is based on, the Northrop XB-35.
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/bombers/b3-66.htm
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/bombers/b3-67.htm

And the jet powered version:
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/bombers/b4/b4-36.htm
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/bombers/b4/b4-37.htm
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/bombers/b4/b4-38.htm

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/bombers/b4/xb49-1.jpg



"Blackburn finally got to make a plane the way they wanted to, they got a solid block of aluminium and drilled holes in it".
Comment on the Blackburn Buccaneer.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 07:58 PM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
-- not only less vulnerable in 44 the allied wasnt
-- first priority to bomb factorys any longer, it was
-- clearly seen taht the war is already won.
-- So they switched to bomb Dresden and co.
-
- Hmmmmm...?
-
- After the first major attack on London, RAF attacked
- Berlin in a daring mission.

i dont know waht year do u mean.

It was a night mission
- and the RAF, with this success in mind, tried to
- bomb several targets during daylight in the
- following weeks. It took heavy losses.
- When the US-AirForce joined the bombing raids, they
- took the role of daylight attacks against factories
- and other key production facilities and supply
- lines, whereas the RAF bombed the cities at night.

right and it was not nesseseary to bomb cities not after 44 they even bomb cities into may 45 just for fun.
they just bomb cities for the reason becouse it still wasnt bombed.

- It was that way until late in the war,

and of the war.

when the
- level-bombardments were concentrated around the area
- of Berlin and the fortifications around it.
-
- The incident in Dresden, which was only the one with
- the highest number of human casualities,

only the 1, it was not only the 1 it may was the first /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

was a plan
- to hit the civilians an revugees in the city and was
- planned and coordinated by the RAF-command.

ahhh well done.

The
- first wave were RAF-Bombers, that set the city
- afire. The second wave, RAF bombers, too, dropped
- Frag-Bombs and HE-Bombs to hit the fleeing people
- and destroy the water lines. The third wave
- consisted of B17, that dropped frag-bombs on the
- areas the RAF had missed. For the next 48 hours
- ground attack planes shot every refugee, that tried
- to flee out of Dresden.
- They declared this attack as a warning, that there
- was no way they could win the war,

ahhh now its all clear.

but it had almost
- been the end of Churchills career.

noway churchil said something taht we may should think about teh importants or nessecary of such strafing acts.
but it dont changed anyting.

- This kind of massive bombardement was cancelled
- thereafter.

sorry but it was not cancelled at all.
maybe after wwii.

-
- greets
- Cpt.LoneRanger
-
-

baazaak said it very well the morality taht we have now was just came after WWII, becouse WWII.

i must say if i had been a fighter pilot i would more try to be a night fighter (Wilde Sau).
I m very impressed from the Americans taht they taked that major risk to bomb at day just to see the target for a precision bombing for selected targets only.
My Grandmas mother was killed on a RAF (just for fun) bombing day and she was inoccent.

Cpt.LoneRanger
07-07-2003, 08:35 PM
1. They bombed the cities to "convince" the Germans in the uncontrolled areas to turn against the regime and kill Hitler themselves to end the war before the costly battle of Berlin.
Infact that was the theory on all attacks against residential area, including Dresden.

2. The RAF and the USAF continued bombing raids on major German cities before and after the attack on Dresden, that's true, but Dresden was the one with the largest armada of bombers and it was the one with the most civilian casualities, since the city of Dresden had absolutely no military targets around it (that's why all the Flak was ordered to areas around Berlin, L├╝beck, Bremen and Hamburg.)

3. Churchill called it a revenge and declared it to be a legitemit target, as the plan was to show the German citizens that it's better to give up fighting. Nevertheless there were many critical voices, escpecially from USAF-commanders and Churchill made a public speech, to declare the military aim of this operation - even though there was none...

4. There were only a few operations that included as many bombers as the raid of Dresden after that attack. Carpet bombing wasn't cancelled, but strafing aircrafts were ordered to fire on military vehicles only, after the incident, for example.


greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 08:52 PM
Pipgig

RAF retaliated with first Berlin raid in 1941.

It was never just for fun. Arthur Harris believed that bombing could break the will of a people to resist and carry on fighting (even Speer said '6 more Colognes and we are finished', so he acknowledged bombing's impact). That was proved to be incorrect both from the British point of view and the German one, though ironically area bombing's ultimate expression in the A bomb brought the war to an end.

From a historical perspective you can argue that it wasn't necessary to bomb cities after a particular point, but that really only tells us about our perspective now, rather than then. It was necessary at the time because that was the view of things.

However tragic, many, many innocent people died in the war, probably more than non-combatants and from all nationalities. If we all look in our family trees I'm sure most of us can discover people in our families who died in that time.

Cpt.LoneRanger
07-07-2003, 10:34 PM
Right, bazzaah2

Tragically it even took 2 A-bombs!!!


A good point, that it seemed an alternative that time, but not only that time, since this was rather common believe during the whole cold war!

Ironically enough, that US-Generals protested against these kinds of airraids in the beginning ...
(But that was also due to the fact, that the US-government wanted to keep the option to make Germany a potential Ally against the SovjetUnion after the war.)


greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

(I didn't comment on that "for fun" thing intentionally...)

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 11:45 PM
If you look at the history of Maths and Physics research, you'll see that Germany dominated these feilds during the 19th and early 20th century. This implies that they had a strong base of scientists and technically minded people sitting around in the 30s. Given creative people, designs like the Me262 are inevitable.

XyZspineZyX
07-07-2003, 11:48 PM
Taz- come over to the dark side

<center><img src=http://homepage.ntlworld.com/caroline1/flag.jpg></center>



sniper-690