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EmptyCrustacean
04-15-2015, 10:29 AM
I'm sorry but Revelations is rubbish.

Of all the AC games it doesn't have anything innovative and it's clear Ubi put it out as filler because they needed more time to work on ACIII.
The hook blade was a gimmick. The sliding down ropes was a gimmick. And Jesus, what's with the horrid facial features? What happened to Desmond's face?
He looked like a burn victim.

Don't get started on that awful den defense mechanic!!! I actually found myself deliberately failing it just so that I could infiltrate the den and kill the captain myself which was way more fun. And the Master Assassin quests had to be the most tedious thing I've ever done in a Ubi game - and that's coming from someone who did ALL of the fixer missions in Watchdogs!!!

Also, the entire point of historical settings in these games is that it's supposed to be unique to the protagonist:

Altair is Syrian so part of the game took place in Syria.
Ezio is Italian so his journey took place in Italy.
Connor is American so it took place in America.
Edward is a Welsh Brit so... oh let's not talk about that.
Arno is French so it took place in France and so forth!

Ezio has no business being in Constantinople. Yes it was more diverse back then with many different cultures but I'd rather see a Greek or better yet a Turkish protagonist.

And yes, the Altair/Ezio story is nice but that could have been a 30 minute extra feature on YouTube or even included in Brotherhood somehow; it does not justify a full length game!!! The MD story was practically short changed, with Desmond remaining in a coma when he should have been dealing with the emotional reprecussions of killing Lucy and discovering she was a Templar. Instead, Lucy's funeral is reduced to a mere line and the fact that they even held a funeral for her with Shaun attending proved that they still cared for Lucy even if she betrayed them. That was far more interesting than the exposition fest which basically just provided Ubisoft with an excuse to give closure to Altair's story. That whole Sync Nexus thing is such a butt-pull and full of inconsistencies that it's not even worth talking about.

Lastly, the soundtrack is so forced!!! By far the second worst after Unity's. Felt like somebody doing a parody of Jesper Kyd which is strange since the soundtrack is, indeed, by Jesper Kyd!!!

The only part of the game I liked was that sort of underworld sequence but even that's undermined somewhat by the awkward climbing structure.

I really hope that Unity is not a game that fans will just come to accept over time. Ubisoft need to be shown that it's not acceptable to put out crap year after year in the hopes that fans will just be greatful for what they can get.

Markaccus
04-15-2015, 10:40 AM
I agree it wasn't a great game. It was just brotherhood lite in a different city. However, Ezio did have business there, as he was researching the origins of all the turmoil he had been through in his life, and this led him to the middle east and finally, Altairs Library, and it completed his and Altairs story nicely.

Shahkulu101
04-15-2015, 11:04 AM
It's not one of my favourites but I enjoy it for it's gorgeous, atmospheric location, the emotional story that was a great send-off for Ezio and I happen to think the ambient music is just beautiful and the best in the series.

That being said, it was a very flawed game - it was basically Brotherhood reskinned but with less side missions. I wouldn't want to see a title like Revelations being brought out again because it's a prime exampe of why yearly releases are a bad idea (though for a game made in 10 months it's impressive), but I can enjoy the things it does well. It's got the best location in the Ezio trilogy, and is best written in my opinion too with the Templar's actually having a bit of nuance, particularly Ahmet, and Ezio being a more believable human being who makes mistakes and isn't always perfect.

I don't think it's a case of people accepting the problems, but people looking back retrospectively and appreciating some of it's qualities even though the game is very flawed as a whole. A bit like AC3 which had a turbulent reception at first but as time has passed people are appreciating it a little bit more despite the fact they may not actually "like" it very much. I dislike AC3 a lot but I can't deny it laid the groundwork for the fantastic AC4 with it's introduction of naval, and pioneered the tree running system among other things.

VestigialLlama4
04-15-2015, 11:27 AM
Revelations is NOT popular. It's just that after a period of time, the fans who complained about the game don't have the energy to fight the same fight again leaving the people who like it to talk about it. Never mistake fansites for any good barometer of game popularity. The best-selling title in the entire Assassin's Creed Franchise is AC3, not the Ezio games, not the Pirate game and least of all Unity. But if you go by fansites, you'll find that most people don't accept this reality.

Personally, I prefer REVELATIONS to BROTHERHOOD. Brotherhood as a game is very systems-driven, but it has a plot that's not enough for a DLC and ideally it should have been one. Revelations on the other hand is a side-game that knows and accepts its a side-game. Istanbul is also the best city in the entire franchise. So it's a game that has a lot going for it. Storywise, its light and not serious, so its a nice change of pace from the save-the-world avenge-loved-one's-death plot the other games have, it manages to end on a nice optimistic note and that's pretty good in my view.


Also, the entire point of historical settings in these games is that it's supposed to be unique to the protagonist:

Altair is Syrian so part of the game took place in Syria.
Ezio is Italian so his journey took place in Italy.
Connor is American so it took place in America.
Edward is a Welsh Brit so... oh let's not talk about that.

Well most pirates were Welsh Brits. So it's apposite. But I see what you mean, ideally they should have made a Turkey-based AC game with a Turkish/Anatolian/Armenian/Jewish/Greek hero (Ottoman Empire was pretty diverse you know). Still the way they handled Revelations made it work for the most part I think.


Arno is French so it took place in France and so forth!

A Frenchmen who speaks English with a BBC-Reject Posh Accent...


Lastly, the soundtrack is so forced!!!

Hey I liked the soundtrack for Revelations. Especially the main theme when you are moving through Istanbul, a nice rumbling chase music that's awesome. Lorne Balfe is fairly underrated in my view. In either case, at least Revelations tries to do a different soundtrack (And AC3 after it as well). unlike reusing the same themes from AC2 again in Brotherhood.


I really hope that Unity is not a game that fans will just come to accept over time.

That's not really up to you to decide. I hate UNITY but you have to accept that for some fans this will be their first AC game (on a new console and the like) so there will be some people who will like it a fair bit.

Markaccus
04-15-2015, 11:35 AM
Unity is not my first ac game, as i have played all if the main titles since the first one, but, despite it's flaws, i generally LIKE unity. It is fun to play, and i am enjoying a lot of the new bits and pieces. For me,game play is most important (it's a GAME after all) and anything else is a bonus. I doubt it will be ANYONES favorite, but I will always maintain it does not deserve some of the hate it gets.

IMO it 's a decent game that could have been fantastic had they spent more time on it.

VestigialLlama4
04-15-2015, 11:54 AM
I doubt it will be ANYONES favorite, but I will always maintain it does not deserve some of the hate it gets.

To be honest, it isn't nearly hated enough, or at least not for the right reasons. UNITY is the jump-the-shark moment for the entire franchise. It systematically destroyed everything the franchise was really about.

Markaccus
04-15-2015, 12:03 PM
To be honest, it isn't nearly hated enough, or at least not for the right reasons. UNITY is the jump-the-shark moment for the entire franchise. It systematically destroyed everything the franchise was really about.

We will agree to differ on this, then.

pirate1802
04-15-2015, 12:16 PM
I'm sorry but Revelations is rubbish.

That's your opinion mate, never be sorry for your opinion. Never! Just like I'm not gonna be sorry for countering your opinion with my opinion. :) Regardless, moving on..


Of all the AC games it doesn't have anything innovative and it's clear Ubi put it out as filler because they needed more time to work on ACIII.

Absolutely true. However one can say that for a lot of games in the franchise. Filler! There is no written rule anyway, that just because something is a filler it won't be good.


The hook blade was a gimmick. The sliding down ropes was a gimmick. And Jesus, what's with the horrid facial features?

All true.


What happened to Desmond's face? He looked like a burn victim.

That's insulting to burn victims mate. I doubt being burned sucks out all their personality.


Don't get started on that awful den defense mechanic!!! I actually found myself deliberately failing it just so that I could infiltrate the den and kill the captain myself which was way more fun.

I must be the only one who actually liked those tower defense minigames. Yes yes, you would say a tower defense thingie has no place in an AC game but then I'd point my finger towards Edward's ship and ask you if that has a place in an AC game. Why did I like it? Because, standing on a rooftop directing my troops really game me the feeling of being a master assassin, because this feeling you don't get anywhere else. Most of the time you are killing people, one on one, whether you're a grizzled octogenerian or a greenhorn bootlicker. Over here you are telling your riflemen to deploy on that rooftop, ordering your air assassins to rain down on your enemies and calling in offmap artillery strikes from time to time. You feel like an appropriate master assassin, not just one in name. Plus it was a tactical game, and it was not overtly easy. I loved it, and was quite shocked to find it gather so much ire. Oh well.


And the Master Assassin quests had to be the most tedious thing I've ever done in a Ubi game - and that's coming from someone who did ALL of the fixer missions in Watchdogs!!!

The Master Assassin missions are yet another feature in ACR I loved. Why? Because here again, you actually feel like a mentor. You recruited an assassin from the streets, you watched him level up, and now he/she is a master assassin. You (I mean I dunno about you specifically, but I certainly did) develop a bond with those groups of pixel. Oh look there, that's the blond chick who used to pickpocket people. Now she is a badass swordswoman and soon-to-be Master. All these missions also had specific antagonists and each of those antagonists had a story behind them. Each of them also had specific gameplay tricks needed to finish the mission. Juicy stuff.


Also, the entire point of historical settings in these games is that it's supposed to be unique to the protagonist:

Altair is Syrian so part of the game took place in Syria.
Ezio is Italian so his journey took place in Italy.
Connor is American so it took place in America.
Edward is a Welsh Brit so... oh let's not talk about that.
Arno is French so it took place in France and so forth!

Ezio has no business being in Constantinople. Yes it was more diverse back then with many different cultures but I'd rather see a Greek or better yet a Turkish protagonist.

Kind of agree and disagree at the same time. While yes, it would have been better to have a Turkish Assassin in Istanbul (Yusuf, for example. Someone on deviantart made a fancomic about him, complete with AC style memories and sequences, any Yusuf fans should check it out), but at the same time, I'm a sucker for this type of familiar-man-in-unfamiliar-land story. This is why, when just after AC3 people speculated that Connor might be going to France next and they winced and they waxed, I was thinking hey! Maybe this could be another Revelations-type experience.

Lastly, nobody has any business going anywhere. Absolutely nobody. They get a business to attend to, once the writers give them one. You could as well say Altair had no business going to Istanbul, or to China. Yet the writers found a way for him to. Edward had no business going all the way to Principe, nor did Connor in the Arctic. Yet they did. These are fictional characters we are dealing with, and these are their fictional businesses, created at the whim of Almighty God and Emperor Darby McDevitt.


And yes, the Altair/Ezio story is nice but that could have been a 30 minute extra feature on YouTube or even included in Brotherhood somehow; it does not justify a full length game!!!

One can say that about a lot of things. Brotherhood could have been a 3-sequence DLC, its main storyline was just embarressingly story, rivaling Rogue's. Does expanding this once-DLC into a full-fledged game and sticking a variety of fillers into it justify a full 60$ price !!!!!!! Depends on who you ask.


The MD story was practically short changed, with Desmond remaining in a coma when he should have been dealing with the emotional reprecussions of killing Lucy and discovering she was a Templar. Instead, Lucy's funeral is reduced to a mere line and the fact that they even held a funeral for her with Shaun attending proved that they still cared for Lucy even if she betrayed them. That was far more interesting than the exposition fest which basically just provided Ubisoft with an excuse to give closure to Altair's story.

I sleep through the most of the MD in AC games anyway, which is why these shortcomings affected me as much as the mosquito bite I received last night. But I'll tell you this though, in introducing William Miles, they introduced the first MD character I was marginally interested in. That they had him punch Desmond in the next game only made me like him more. Cool stuff.


That whole Sync Nexus thing is such a butt-pull and full of inconsistencies that it's not even worth talking about.

If you notice closely, all of the franchise is rife with such butt-pulls, better known as Mcguffins. What was the grand temple? What was the observatory? What are these boxes that cause earthquakes apparently? All butt-pulls, designed to serve as a reason to use the animus. Revelations is no different. Atleast its butt-pull related somewhat to the previous games.


Lastly, the soundtrack is so forced!!! By far the second worst after Unity's. Felt like somebody doing a parody of Jesper Kyd which is strange since the soundtrack is, indeed, by Jesper Kyd!!!

Probably the first time I'm hearing someone not liking the game's soundtrack. I'm not a musical expert so I can't describe properly all the nuances of its music, but I personally rate it very, very highly.


The only part of the game I liked was that sort of underworld sequence but even that's undermined somewhat by the awkward climbing structure.

'Twas magical isn't it? Though, the climbing mechanism was the same as in the older Ezio games, now just easier. Nor sure what was awkward in it.

Now onto the things Revelations does do well. Remember the Templar Den assassinations? Stalking around the neighbourhood, skulking around rooftops, darting out of view if caught by a guard and mingling with the crowd, it is literally the most refined iteration of the assassin-predator gameplay the series is about. They say AC3 would make you feel like a predator, but it were these side activities that made me feel like a predator. Circling around my prey, looking for a weakness, finding one and diving down to deliver the killing blow. Even better was the fact that these were not childishly easy. The captains were notoriously skittish and would run away should they spot you, denying you the chance to kill them again for a significant portion of time. Where is Shobhit.. he could go on and on about this stuff.

Remember when AC was supposed to be about Moral ambiguity? Then came about AC2 and its cartoonish army of mustache-twirling villains. ACR was a step back at the right direction. They were not AC1-type mindgrinders but atleast they were not AC2's did-evil-for-the lulz villains.

Istanbul was a beautiful, beautiful city. A shame that there was not that much to do in it, but damn if it was not filled with atmosphere. You could walk by, see people smoking hukkah and almost smell the tobacco, or the household smell emanating out of the poor district, rich district's expensive ittr or people's sweat as you walk in the bazaar, along with aroma of fresh fruits and spicy kebab. It was AC's Paris before Unity came along. It was also my first brush with this timeless city, and inspired me to read more about it and eventually led me to some great Turkish works, Pamuk obviously the greatest of them. And the beautiful thing is, the more I read Pamuk's Istanbul The more I marveled at how the game, though set far far earlier, managed to catch that basic essence of this city, the essence that travelers are familiar with, that immediately characterize a great city and never change with time. Pamuk says how Istanbul, despite being a modern city, carries an ancient undercrust. And as you walk among glittering highrises and modern apartments, somewhere you would catch a whiff of that ancient city, maybe the evening azaan from the local mosque,e, a roadside vendor selling trinkets, a veiled face or the scent of kebabs, and you would immediately be transported to that old city. I feel this old city would have been something close to how Revelations pictures it.

Revelations had its flaws, quite a lot of them infact, as others said. But it was still, a beautiful game. And I would not start liking it less because someone thought it was rubbish. Just my opinion. :p

EmptyCrustacean
04-15-2015, 02:25 PM
Revelations is NOT popular. It's just that after a period of time, the fans who complained about the game don't have the energy to fight the same fight again leaving the people who like it to talk about it. Never mistake fansites for any good barometer of game popularity. The best-selling title in the entire Assassin's Creed Franchise is AC3, not the Ezio games, not the Pirate game and least of all Unity. But if you go by fansites, you'll find that most people don't accept this reality.

Personally, I prefer REVELATIONS to BROTHERHOOD. Brotherhood as a game is very systems-driven, but it has a plot that's not enough for a DLC and ideally it should have been one. Revelations on the other hand is a side-game that knows and accepts its a side-game. Istanbul is also the best city in the entire franchise. So it's a game that has a lot going for it. Storywise, its light and not serious, so its a nice change of pace from the save-the-world avenge-loved-one's-death plot the other games have, it manages to end on a nice optimistic note and that's pretty good in my view.

Yes but AC3 was coming off of AC2 series. It was capatilising on the momentum that the Ezio games had created so people brought ACIII in droves and then was disappointed to find out it was nothing like the previous games. And Brotherhood ushered in the Brotherhood missions (hence the title), had some of the best mission design structures and side content (particuarly the underground sequences), the best MD puzzles and stories, and also brought in the mission constraints.


Well most pirates were Welsh Brits. So it's apposite. But I see what you mean, ideally they should have made a Turkey-based AC game with a Turkish/Anatolian/Armenian/Jewish/Greek hero (Ottoman Empire was pretty diverse you know). Still the way they handled Revelations made it work for the most part I think.

Yes, but the Caribbean - especially when you're including places like Kingston - is largely populated by people of Caribbean ethnicity and the protagonist should have reflected that.


A Frenchmen who speaks English with a BBC-Reject Posh Accent...

I hated it too. In fact, I was the FIRST to say that the only reason why they changed it was to appease Americans. Then people came back to me saying I was being offensive, petty, overreacting etc only for the voice actor to confirm I was right in a podcas lol. That said, despite what the accent was (or wasn't) Arno is supposed to be French.


That's not really up to you to decide. I hate UNITY but you have to accept that for some fans this will be their first AC game (on a new console and the like) so there will be some people who will like it a fair bit.

Didn't say it was. I just said I hoped people wouldn't forget the burn.

Markaccus
04-15-2015, 02:49 PM
Yes, but the Caribbean - especially when you're including places like Kingston - is largely populated by people of Caribbean ethnicity and the protagonist should have reflected that.




The original natives of the Caribbean had all but been wiped out by Europeans by that time. There would have been African slaves, Spanish and Brits. Over time, they have become naturalised caribbeans, but not natives.

http://countrystudies.us/caribbean-islands/5.htm

dxsxhxcx
04-15-2015, 02:58 PM
I don't see the problem with the protagonist visiting other countries...

SixKeys
04-15-2015, 03:18 PM
Agreed with OP on everything but the soundtrack. I do still think the ACR soundtrack is the weakest of the ones Jesper Kyd worked on, mostly because of the overabundance of Lorne Balfe's "aaahhh-aaahhh-AAAAHHH" motif on almost every single track. But the tracks that work really work, like "Welcome to Konstantiniyye", "Labored and Lost", "Galata Tower" and "Scheduled for Deletion".

ACB was also a cash grab, but it still felt like a much bigger game. It continued the story of the Borgia family, which felt like a natural thing for Ezio to tackle. It expanded upon the Villa upgrade system by making you upgrade an entire city, which also made sense within the plot as Ezio was removing Borgia influence from Rome. Every side mission (which offered hours upon hours of entertainment) was tied together by the narrative, which was Ezio gathering an army of the common people to take on the corrupt Borgias. Even the factions (Courtesans, Mercenaries and Thieves), who had been rather random in AC2, made sense in this new context. Their initial reluctance to join Ezio - due to having their own problems to deal with - was a logical reason for Ezio to have to act as their errand boy, to gain their trust and loyalty. All of Leonardo's war machine missions were unique and exciting: you got to steer a boat, shoot a machine gun, roll over people in a tank and fly an upgraded flying machine. Modern day story was relevant and plot-driven. At a time when a lot of people didn't care about Desmond's story, I daresay it was the shocking cliffhanger in the modern day portion of the game that made most people buy Revelations, more so than the promise of more Ezio. They just HAD to know what happened to Lucy.

Then came ACR. Plotwise, it made zero sense to have Ezio leave Italy and go to Constantinople. He had no stakes there, the brotherhood didn't need him. The Turkish assassins were thriving, they had a good leader in Yusuf, they had new weapons Ezio had never even heard of that gave them an edge in the fight against Templars. The city itself was thriving too, so it made no sense to go around buying shops. Templar dens were fun, a recycled mechanic from ACB, but having to do Den Defense after capturing one felt like a punishment. The hookblade really didn't add much to navigation. It was awkward to use, didn't always react the way it should, and I generally found the ziplines to always be going in the wrong direction from where I was headed, so there was rarely an opportunity to use them. Bomb stations were everywhere. There were more bomb stations than there were missions in the game, which is just ridiculous.What's the use of having a bomb crafting station on every street corner if there aren't even enough opportunities to use them? Most of the side quests consisted entirely of tutorials, like all of Piri Reis' missions. Running errands for factions felt pointless. And the worst side "quest" type by far was having to search for those damn books. Just climb a high spot, scan three glowing spots with Eagle Vision until you hit the right one, dig up an object. It was just a collectible that made you go through a lot of tedious tasks to obtain it. Like Petruccio's feathers except "upgraded" to make you run a lap around a building each time before you were allowed to collect one.

People like to b*tch and moan about Unity's plot ultimately being pointless, but ACR was almost as bad in that regard. Ezio searches for Altaïr's library only to finally get there and decide "you know what, I'm not gonna take this Apple after all, I'mma retire". He talked so much about wanting to find answers, to find a purpose for his life, only to literally turn around at the end and admit that he was never going to know it all. He was just a conduit for a message that he was never going to understand. He already seemed to have accepted this at the end of the Da Vinci Disappearance DLC, when he told Leonardo that the coordinates they found weren't meant for them and walked away smiling.

Modern day was the biggest insult of all. It felt like a joke. They used the cheapest plot device in soap opera history: make the character fall into a coma in order to halt the advancement of the big plot. Desmond finally meets the mysterious Subject 16, who seemed to want so urgently to speak to him in ACB. So many questions! "What did you mean when you talked about my son? What do you know about Lucy? Why do you keep acting so creepily, like you want to kill me and ride my *** back home?" Yet Desmond asked nothing, and 16 acted like they had all the time in the world and he had nothing urgent to talk about. We never did find out the answer to the biggest question on everyone's minds: what happened to Lucy? Oh, unless of course you bought the PAID DLC with more Portal-esque platforming missions that nobody cared about. Even there it was cheaply done. Lucy never talked to us directly, because that would have required hiring back her voice actress. So we just found letters from her with poorly made excuses that made no sense for her character. After everything she's seen through the Animus, after all the lies that have been exposed to her, she somehow believes the Templars have been right all along and that they will bring peace to the world? Yeah, right.

You wanna talk about jumping the shark? ACR did it loooong before Unity.

Markaccus
04-15-2015, 03:39 PM
Got to ask.... Two people have now used the phrase "jumping the shark". What the hell does that mean?? :D

VestigialLlama4
04-15-2015, 04:10 PM
Yes but AC3 was coming off of AC2 series. It was capatilising on the momentum that the Ezio games had created so people brought ACIII in droves and then was disappointed to find out it was nothing like the previous games.

Wrong. It continued to sell well until four months after its release and still does well in sales. You make it sound like it earned all its money on pre-orders and early releases. The game had pretty good word of mouth. Even Black Flag didn't make as much money as AC3 did, and that had a better critical response. The fact is most of AC3's critics were a vocal minority (abusing their command of video game critical sites) and nothing more.


That said, despite what the accent was (or wasn't) Arno is supposed to be French.

Well technically he's Half French Half Austrian (which doesn't come up in the game by the way, you would think it would cause him trouble given that France and Austria were at war in this time). His name Arno Victor Dorian doesn't sound very French either, its the least French sounding name in the entire game in fact. Arno is technically an old German derivation for "Eagle", it inspired names like Arnold while the French derivation should be Arnaud.

The fact is they very deliberately made Arno to be someone who's kind of this bland-generic universal guy with no personality. So he's French but doesn't sound French, nor does he look or act French, nor is his name very French. He's in Paris (revolutionary HQ) but he's actually from Versailles (aka Royalist HQ) and speaks and acts like a poncy, pampered toff at a time when common people (who Arno despises) were asking for their rights. In the earlier games, Assassins tended to be some kind of outsiders to the society, like Altair is an orphan who would never have been anything without the Assassins, Ezio's family were nouveau riche in Florence who only had status and privilege thanks to the Medici influence, Connor is of course the ultimate example while Edward Kenway is poor and Welsh in England and a Pirate in the New World. Arno doesn't have any of that (well an aristocrat in France IS a minority technically) and as such he's a pretty boring dude, and to me totally repulsive.


Didn't say it was. I just said I hoped people wouldn't forget the burn.

I don't think they will forget the burn. When every AC game came out, despite the criticisms or praise, people actually talked about the games or missions. In AC1, people discussed Richard the Lionheart, Abul Nuqood, Maria Thorpe, Malick, the finale and the ending where Desmond gets Eagle Sense, likewise AC2, everyone talked about flying over Venice and the fistfight with the Pope, In Brotherhood, everyone talked about Arrow Storm and the finale where Desmond stabbed Lucy. Even AC3, people talked about naval, they talked about treerunning, they complained about Homestead crafting, they talked of the Bunker Hill missions and Washington generally, they basically discussed images and moments from the game, which everyone played to the end (hence people complaining about the final Charles Lee mission or Connor saying "Where is Charles Lee").

In UNITY, the defining image is Arno's Dad without his face, Elise with her head becoming a pinata and other bugs. Nobody talks about the missions aside from complaining about the ending where You-Know-Who dies. It's not a game of memorable moments. Well the Baloon Ride between Arno and Elise is one instance I guess, but generally it hasn't created those iconic moments in the earlier AC titles.

VestigialLlama4
04-15-2015, 04:25 PM
Got to ask.... Two people have now used the phrase "jumping the shark". What the hell does that mean?? :D

It's slang. it means when a popular show slides into decline.

UNITY
- Does not innovate or bring anything new to the games.
- Does not improve or follow on the grayer storyline in the Kenway games.
- Departs significantly from the solid historical fidelity that drove the earlier games.
- Features stupid English accents for no rhyme or reason.
- Has the most pointless MD in games.
- Takes one of the most exciting and defining periods in world history and messes it up, (which is a failure that needs a great bit of talent to achieve).

GunnerGalactico
04-15-2015, 04:38 PM
Revelations isn't exactly on my favourite list of AC games. The only things that stood out for me were: Ezio's flawed personality, the location and fact that we got to play as Altair for a few short sequences (but even that was handled badly). On the plus side, I did enjoy the Master Assassin Quests and Piri Reis missions. The modern day aspect was the worst part of the game. I did try my hardest to find something that could redeem this game, but couldn't sadly. AC3 was a dream to play compared to Revelations :rolleyes:

Farlander1991
04-15-2015, 04:40 PM
Wrong. It continued to sell well until four months after its release and still does well in sales.

While there's no public tracking going on in digital sales, you do know that in retail by now both ACIII's and ACIV's sales are at 12 million with ACIII only slightly ahead? Which means that ACIV caught up with the originally bestselling game of the franchise and is on the way of getting ahead of it in sales. It's pretty safe to presume that digital follows the same tendency, usually they do.

ACIII total sales (http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=assassin%27s+creed+iii&publisher=&platform=&genre=&minSales=0&results=200) (this search includes Liberation, so just count that out)
ACIV total sales (http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=assassin%27s+creed+iv%3A+black+flag)

Markaccus
04-15-2015, 04:44 PM
It's slang. it means when a popular show slides into decline.

UNITY
- Does not innovate or bring anything new to the games.
- Does not improve or follow on the grayer storyline in the Kenway games.
- Departs significantly from the solid historical fidelity that drove the earlier games.
- Features stupid English accents for no rhyme or reason.
- Has the most pointless MD in games.
- Takes one of the most exciting and defining periods in world history and messes it up, (which is a failure that needs a great bit of talent to achieve).


I see. Thanks. Not a phrase i had heard before.

Not going to get into the Unity Like/dislike thing but i will say a couple of things....

Agree with the accents. Even cartoony french accents are better than some yourkshire bloke trying to be a french patriot.

The MD is non existent, appart from rifts so agree on that too.

I dont think it departs any more or less from history than any of the other games.

VestigialLlama4
04-15-2015, 05:09 PM
While there's no public tracking going on in digital sales, you do know that in retail by now both ACIII's and ACIV's sales are at 12 million with ACIII only slightly ahead? Which means that ACIV caught up with the originally bestselling game of the franchise and is on the way of getting ahead of it in sales. It's pretty safe to presume that digital follows the same tendency, usually they do.

ACIII total sales (http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=assassin%27s+creed+iii&publisher=&platform=&genre=&minSales=0&results=200) (this search includes Liberation, so just count that out)
ACIV total sales (http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=assassin%27s+creed+iv%3A+black+flag)

Thanks again for the links, Farlander1991. Very interesting. I wonder if you can track it down by yearly release. In any case my point still stands, AC3 didn't sell all those units at launch, so people trying to say that the people who bought this game coming on the back of the Ezio series aren't right.

Of course watching those figures you can also tell that Black Flag benefitted greatly from its PS4/Xbox One port. It became bundled with several new consoles. And for a few months Black Flag was one of the only AAA titles on the new consoles. AC3 sold supremely well entirely on the old generation in its final cycle (i.e. consoles were sold and cheaper versions were available).



I see. Thanks. Not a phrase i had heard before.

Internet slang includes phrases that need its own dictionary sometimes. I only found out last week what swag means.

Anyway, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark


I dont think it departs any more or less from history than any of the other games.

It totally does. A while back I started a thread that argued conclusively that UNITY makes the other games look like documentaries. I made a list of every error it makes (main and side missions). Some of the other commentors used your argument as well and I replied. It's a long thread but you can get a gist of it here.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/954025-ACU-History-A-list-of-demonstrable-lies-and-inaccuracies-**SPOILERS**

You can also listen to this nice YouTube channel where two professional historians comment over gameplay footage on how different AC Titles did history.

BLACK FLAG
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C9h3p5Efa4
LIBERATION/FREEDOM CRY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwJzj9g5HNI
(Which gets a B in terms of historical accuracy)

And then they comment on the hatchet job that is UNITY (which is rated F)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r47yZIYBUzc

(Some of the comments by the way are interesting, they imply that Ubisoft is kind of white-washing French history in these games. Also check out the Valiant Hearts episode as well).

Markaccus
04-15-2015, 05:17 PM
I just feel people ignore a lot of things in the old faves, but use the same issues as another stick to beat the ones they dislike. Ok, so Unity is condemned to the bottom of many peoples lists, but i personally think its tragic that modern gamers seem to micro-analyse games, and end up ruining there own enjoyment more than the game does itself. I read a lot of negatives about unity, so i simply decided i was just going to go ahead and play the game as it came, rather than letting the story issues and setting bother me.

VestigialLlama4
04-15-2015, 05:23 PM
I just feel people ignore a lot of things in the old faves, but use the same issues as another stick to beat the ones they dislike. Ok, so Unity is condemned to the bottom of many peoples lists, but i personally think its tragic that modern gamers seem to micro-analyse games, and end up ruining there own enjoyment more than the game does itself.

The fact is these are expensive games. So it damn sure be micro-analysed. After all who wants to spend 70$ and a lot of other micro-transaction cash for a game that is essentially worth a quarter or less than that.

Markaccus
04-15-2015, 06:08 PM
The fact is these are expensive games. So it damn sure be micro-analysed. After all who wants to spend 70$ and a lot of other micro-transaction cash for a game that is essentially worth a quarter or less than that.

Well i suppose to a certain extent,if you spend that much, then you want a game you are going to enjoy. On the other hand, while i do see why some things bother you, i don't understand why you let other things get you down. I suppose it is down to what we feel is important in a game in general, and whether we put that BEFORE what we think is important for AC games. I personally wont allow the story or how well the setting is used to spoil my experience. It isnt that important to me. The game play is spot on imo ( i know they fixed many bugs). There are some pointless filler-missions, but for the most part the side stuff entertains me adiquately to justify its inclusion.

Ubisoft are not going to please everyone all of the time. Its a risk we all take when we get a new game.

VestigialLlama4
04-15-2015, 06:17 PM
Well i suppose to a certain extent,if you spend that much, then you want a game you are going to enjoy. On the other hand, while i do see why some things bother you, i don't understand why you let other things get you down. I suppose it is down to what we feel is important in a game in general, and whether we put that BEFORE what we think is important for AC games. I personally wont allow the story or how well the setting is used to spoil my experience. It isnt that important to me. The game play is spot on imo ( i know they fixed many bugs). There are some pointless filler-missions, but for the most part the side stuff entertains me adiquately to justify its inclusion.

Look if AC's only interest as a stealth game then I would much rather play Mark of the Ninja or Dishonored or the original Thief or maybe Snake Eater. I generally prefer stealth games and the like. In terms of pure gameplay, AC is not especially special, even AC1. What makes those games work is how they used fairly basic gameplay elements to create a really comprehensive and complex sandbox. That was what made those games great, the fact that you were in the past in a way no other game ever came close to doing. The minute AC abandons that, as UNITY did, the games are destroyed and useless.

Markaccus
04-15-2015, 06:23 PM
Look if AC's only interest as a stealth game then I would much rather play Mark of the Ninja or Dishonored or the original Thief or maybe Snake Eater. I generally prefer stealth games and the like. In terms of pure gameplay, AC is not especially special, even AC1. What makes those games work is how they used fairly basic gameplay elements to create a really comprehensive and complex sandbox. That was what made those games great, the fact that you were in the past in a way no other game ever came close to doing. The minute AC abandons that, as UNITY did, the games are destroyed and useless.

In your opinion. Then i wish you luck with whatever games you take up. In me opinion,Unity is not even half as bad as you make out, and there are elements that make my optomistic (as long as they are more careful and less rushed) that ubi will nail it and filter out all the irritations and mistakes that caused all the realistic negativity.

Unity is not bottom of my list in either gameplay or content. AC3 is, along with rogue and acr. It isnt at the top, either.

VestigialLlama4
04-15-2015, 06:29 PM
... that caused all the realistic negativity.

"Realistic negativity" now that is a mouthful of a concept. So why is my negative reaction less realistic than others?

Markaccus
04-15-2015, 06:38 PM
"Realistic negativity" now that is a mouthful of a concept. So why is my negative reaction less realistic than others?

Your expectations on historical accuracy. The more recent the games get, the more we know about what actually happened, and the more restrictive the standards would have to be to fit. Thats not a fair expectation imo. Poetic license is what makes games like this work, and more liberties have to be taken, otherwise we would be watching documentaries in cgi form, rather than stabbing templars and finding magic swords, power-staffs and exploding brain-apples.

VestigialLlama4
04-15-2015, 06:56 PM
Your expectations on historical accuracy.

All I wanted was what Alex Amancio (Game Director of Assassin's Creed Unity) said in this interview with TIME Magazine (an actual journal of repute not a game publication):


What we actually try to do, and I think this is just a personal belief that we have, is to avoid reducing history. You can’t start taking sides, because that makes it biased, and what we’re really trying to do is expose every slice of history in the most unbiased way possible. It’s obviously incredibly difficult. History is always subjective, because it’s written by people, and no matter how objective you try to be, human nature makes it subjective. We try very hard to portray things as factually as possible.
http://time.com/3471390/assassins-creed-unity/

As the game finally shows, every word Mr. Amancio said turned out to be a bold-faced lie.


Thats not a fair expectation imo. Poetic license is what makes games like this work, and more liberties have to be taken, otherwise we would be watching documentaries in cgi form,

As it happens, real-life documentaries take "poetic license" too. The History Channel is about as "accurate" as AC. Let me give you a hint of where I'm coming from. In terms of historical accuracy, I'd rank the games like this:
AC1 - 50%
AC2 - 60%
ACB - 40%
ACR - 35%
AC3 - 65%
Black Flag - 65%
Unity - 7% (It gets the date of the beginning of the Revolution right, names of some important figures and events, which is about 0.5%, the rest is for getting a lot of architecture right).
(Rogue I never bothered to check since its a fanfiction and not a game. Liberation and Freedom Cry I don't know the period well enough to rank).

UNITY needed to be at a basic level merely 35-40% accurate. Since its a major title (that is Next-Gen Launch and not a side-game like ACB or ACR) it should concievably be 60-65% accurate.

Shahkulu101
04-15-2015, 07:01 PM
This thread isn't even about Unity, every discussion seems to turn into an argument about it whether it's relevant or not...

Markaccus
04-15-2015, 07:05 PM
Holy pre-cursor civilization, batman! Percentages? History Channel?

This is pointless. This. Is. A. Video. Game.
If you feel it is that bad, then by all means, play a different one. It isn't up to me to convince you otherwise, or order you to like Unity. But you wont be changing my mind either, no matter how many stats you throw at me. We clearly play these games for different reasons. Just because you dislike it doesnt mean i have to agree.

VestigialLlama4
04-15-2015, 07:15 PM
This is pointless. This. Is. A. Video. Game.

Then why did the game director Alex Amancio say (and it turns out falsely) about the game's committment to be fair to history to a magazine as distinguished as Time Magazine. Why don't you respond to that?


But you wont be changing my mind either, no matter how many stats you throw at me.

Those aren't stats those are rough ball-park figures. When we talk of historical accuracy everyone assumes you want 100%, I neither ask nor expect that.


Just because you dislike it doesnt mean i have to agree.

The point isn't to make you agree or disagree. If that was the case, you wouldn't be here posting these forums. You would actually be playing UNITY in your spare time instead of talking about it here.

If you are saying UNITY is a good AC game, then how can you explain that the game falls to such very low standards compared to the rest of the series. If you say UNITY's poetic license is no different than earlier titles, then how is it that UNITY fails so basically as a historical fiction?


This thread isn't even about Unity, every discussion seems to turn into an argument about it whether it's relevant or not...

Well the OP did mention UNITY in context of Revelations, so...

Markaccus
04-15-2015, 07:24 PM
I dont want to go so deep into discussion about it. And what are you on about playing unity in my spare time instead of being on the forums? I am on the bus atm, and i also post during my breaks at work when there is something to discuss. I dont have to explain why i like Unity, because gaming is recreational and not a political debate. However i have said why i think its still a good game and i am not going to repeat myself. You dont have to agree, but you have no right to tell my i am out and out wrong. These are opinions, not facts. And that comment about ball park figures and not stats... pedantry at its finest. Well done. End of convo. Feel free to have the last word, i already know you will.

VestigialLlama4
04-15-2015, 07:30 PM
You dont have to agree, but you have no right to tell my i am out and out wrong. These are opinions, not facts.

Logically speaking, opinions can be wrong while facts less so.


Feel free to have the last word, i already know you will.

What childishness is this. There's no such thing as a last word. Anyway...

Sorrosyss
04-15-2015, 07:30 PM
Say what you will about Revelations, it still told a better story than Unity.

But that's not hard. ;)

VestigialLlama4
04-15-2015, 07:32 PM
Say what you will about Revelations, it still told a better story than Unity.

But that's not hard. ;)

Hey hey, we finally got back on topic.
:cool:

But seriously, if UNITY had a modest story and setting like Revelations, it would probably be a better game.

Markaccus
04-15-2015, 07:37 PM
Ahahahahahahaha. Priceless.

Shahkulu101
04-15-2015, 07:39 PM
Hey hey, we finally got back on topic.
:cool:

But seriously, if UNITY had a modest story and setting like Revelations, it would probably be a better game.

You thought Paris wasn't even modest?

I get that the city doesn't have any real connection to the French Revolution because of the story elements...but judging the city itself - it's nothing short of magnificent...

Sushiglutton
04-15-2015, 07:46 PM
I was not invited to that meeting either :(

VestigialLlama4
04-15-2015, 08:05 PM
You thought Paris wasn't even modest?

I get that the city doesn't have any real connection to the French Revolution because of the story elements...but judging the city itself - it's nothing short of magnificent...

The point is there's no aesthetic or gameplay reason for doing Paris during the French Revolution if its not about the French Revolution, its as simple as that. If I want to drool over Paris, I can go to the real city, or I can watch amazing movies like Midnight in Paris. No render can compare with the real thing after all. There has to be a reason why we are in that city at one time and one place after all.

If the developers of Unity cared more about Paris as a city (i.e. Revelations-scale narrative) than they should have chosen the late 19th Century, the Belle Epoque which we briefly glimpse in the Time Anomalies, more monuments, more history, more things to climb. Revelations is modest because the game was entirely about Istanbul. It didn't care too much about Ottoman Politics and grudges and since it was an annual title made in a short window, it couldn't realistically do justice as well. So it took a simple tourist story and made a game entirely about the city and created a modest plot based on that, which nonetheless (thanks to Darby McDevitt, a writer who really does understand the potential of using history creatively) manages to correct a lot of anti-Turkish sentiment in Western media. The database entries authored by Clay Kaczmarek are incredibly well written, informative and the books likewise add to the sense of the city as crossroads. Compare that to the unforgivably bad writing that is in UNITY's databases (which is actually false history most of the time).

Altair1789
04-15-2015, 09:38 PM
I loved the city, soundtrack, and story (more towards the end). The gameplay wasn't very new but I wasn't too bothered by that. I would've really liked a Turkish assassin who looked for the Masyaf keys, but they wanted to close off Ezio's story. It probably would've also taken more time

king-hailz
04-15-2015, 10:18 PM
Well, It has the greatest AC city excluding AC Unity. It is absolutely gorgeous, plus it has the most emotional scene in the entire game for me. It had the same great game play as before, a magnificent soundtrack.

It was also the end of the the majority of people's favortite AC game and one of many people favorite gaming characters, Ezio. It also added more Altair and ended his story.

I'm sorry but if you say ACR is rubbish, then AC3 was dogsh*t. AC4 is also rubbish and ACU, well we know whatever I'm gonna say is gonna make this post get deleted or something....

Plus what you said about Ezio not having a game in turkey because he is Italian doesn't deserve a response it's so ignorant.

RinoTheBouncer
04-15-2015, 10:32 PM
I have disagree wholeheartedly with every word in the OP. I'm sorry, but AC:R and ACII are my most favorite Assassin's Creed games, along with AC:B. I can't even decide which one gets the NO.1 rank, so I give them all the same rank since they're all Ezio's story.

AC:R was a masterpiece when it comes to characters and their development, music, cutscenes, story, gameplay and setting. The soundtrack is my most favorite soundtrack from all the series, whether it's for the Desmond's Journey and The Lost Archive or the Ezio segment. This is probably the only Assassin's Creed soundtrack album that I can listen to outside the game, on my iPod or play it in the background on my computer and enjoy and feel every bit of it, without having to watch it's accompanying scene to feel it.

The cutscenes and dialogues were among the best that the series had to offer, and Ezio's was at his best there.

Now let me tell you something about Desmond's Journey and The Lost Archive, I absolutely loath first person and I adore the modern day segment and First Civ. sites. However, AC:R really changed my mind. I know I prefer the 3rd person MD, which takes place outside the Animus, however, there's something really special about this. I adore the architecture of the Desmond's Journey and The Lost Archive sequences, I could stare at those for hours, listening to the ambient music in the background that takes my breath away. So I don't see what's there to hate about those either.

Every work of art has its flaws or parts where you think "I could've done that part better", but to me, the things that I'd want to change in AC:R are so minor and so forgivable in comparison to the epic parts. The game totally nailed it with being so story-driven, so theatrical, so warm and detailed, so I can't really complain about anything related to AC:R.

If anything, it should be even more and more popular because there are a lot of amazing things in it that people tend to overlook while complaining about the few negative parts. Maybe it's because of my gameplay style and the parts that interest me about an AC game. I personally think that if a game delivered a well-written and powerful story that is beautifully executed, along with good gameplay, I'll be totally happy. I honestly couldn't care less about side missions or Den Defense or Forts or collecting flags or Animus Data Fragments and the likes. I love AC for its story and characters, both modern day and historic and I believe AC:R, as a finale for the Ezio saga delivered everything it promised to do.

SixKeys
04-16-2015, 02:33 AM
The point is there's no aesthetic or gameplay reason for doing Paris during the French Revolution if its not about the French Revolution, its as simple as that. If I want to drool over Paris, I can go to the real city, or I can watch amazing movies like Midnight in Paris. No render can compare with the real thing after all. There has to be a reason why we are in that city at one time and one place after all.


I've been to Paris in RL. Unity's render is much more appealing. :cool:

Dev_Anj
04-16-2015, 04:11 AM
You know, there's a saying, " Art is an imitation of real life so it's lesser than real life in a way, but it can also provides an experience that real life doesn't provide well, so it's also greater than real life in a way."

I-Like-Pie45
04-16-2015, 04:17 AM
I once spoke to a poodle and he told me that paris is the armpit of french creation

VestigialLlama4
04-16-2015, 06:00 AM
I've been to Paris in RL. Unity's render is much more appealing.

"I've been to Paris, Paramount and Paris, France, believe me Paramount [Studios] is better."
--> Ernst Lubitsch.

Unfortunately, Paris, Ubisoft isn't say even one-tenth as good as Paris, Paramount.

UNITY's Paris is this inert, flat, lifeless thing. Its useful for people who want a Google Street View kind of thing, but if people want that, use the actual Google Street View, no need to have 70$ stolen from you for a terrible, c--ppy product. What is the reason for us visiting Paris during the Revolution, if all we can say is "Paris is really pretty except for all the foul evil poor people asking for rights" which is I guess pretty much how stupid tourists feel when they visit Paris (or any city for that matter).


You know, there's a saying, " Art is an imitation of real life so it's lesser than real life in a way, but it can also provides an experience that real life doesn't provide well, so it's also greater than real life in a way."

I have never heard that saying before in my life.

My point is if Ubisoft wanted to do Paris they should do it in an era that focuses more on monument climbing and sight-seeing. There has to be a reason why we are there. In AC2, the point was to show-the-Renaissance-as-it-was-happening. Like when you meet Rodrigo at the Sistine Chapel at the end, you don't see Michelangelo's Ceiling (its ten years too early) they could have put that there easily but Desilets refused to do it because it would compromise the entire game. He likewise wanted to show Leonardo as this young, handsome gay guy rather than this classic Old Man image (an image by-the-way that has never been successfully attributed to Leonardo). If Unity's developers showed about a quarter of that artistic fidelity and commitment...well if they did they would undoubtedly not even make the game to begin with.


I once spoke to a poodle and he told me that paris is the armpit of french creation

Now that's what I'm talking about. This guy gets me.

VestigialLlama4
04-16-2015, 06:16 AM
AC:R was a masterpiece when it comes to characters and their development, music, cutscenes, story, gameplay and setting. The soundtrack is my most favorite soundtrack from all the series, whether it's for the Desmond's Journey and The Lost Archive or the Ezio segment. This is probably the only Assassin's Creed soundtrack album that I can listen to outside the game, on my iPod or play it in the background on my computer and enjoy and feel every bit of it, without having to watch it's accompanying scene to feel it.

The cutscenes and dialogues were among the best that the series had to offer, and Ezio's was at his best there.

You know you are right about the dialogues, cutscenes and facial animations. It's actually quite well done in REVELATIONS. I am thinking of that bit where Yusuf tells Ezio, "When were you ever young?" and the expression which Ezio gives is really subtle there. Revelations is a game about growing old and that's quite rare to do. And I love the soundtrack too, there's actually this one piece of soundtrack I am trying to track down, its not there on the official release from what I've heard. It's the main theme when you are waking around Istanbul, it has this local music theme but its a little more tense and suspenseful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9JPx9ZH2n0

It starts from 26:37


If anything, it should be even more and more popular because there are a lot of amazing things in it that people tend to overlook while complaining about the few negative parts.

That's true, but you know people mostly go by first impressions. When REVELATIONS advertising came out, people complained about another Ezio game and were geared towards hating it. When AC3 came out, fans didn't like the American setting, they didn't like playing a non-white character, they wanted more Ezio (when the previous year they wanted less Ezio). With Black Flag, people didn't want sailing and so on. Most of the time people don't do much aside from keep bringing the same first impressions over and over again.

pirate1802
04-16-2015, 06:29 AM
Actually, I have found that this is a hallmark of all Darby games. The side characters have relatively less screentime, but the time they do get, they become very memorable. And the dialogs are short and crispy. A lot of emotions and subtlity packed in a few sharp words. That 'When were you ever young' line, Edward's interaction with Lauren Prins, 'I'm just in it for some coins. So was I kid, so was I' are examples of this.

Dead1y-Derri
04-16-2015, 06:30 AM
I enjoyed the game to a small degree but I'll be honest and say it wasn't my favourite addition to the series.

VestigialLlama4
04-16-2015, 06:53 AM
Actually, I have found that this is a hallmark of all Darby games. The side characters have relatively less screentime, but the time they do get, they become very memorable. And the dialogs are short and crispy. A lot of emotions and subtlity packed in a few sharp words. That 'When were you ever young' line, Edward's interaction with Lauren Prins, 'I'm just in it for some coins. So was I kid, so was I' are examples of this.

There's that famous phrase right, "There are no small parts, only small actors". Economy is a principle that people don't respect much these days (not just in games but also movies and especially TV Shows). But while Darby McDevitt does write well, that's also there in the first games, like in AC1, every target is iconic and memorable but you only see them when you assassinate them (except for Hochmeister Sibrand who suddenly shows up in one of your interrogations out of nowhere) for a little bit. Robert de Sable for instance has a grand total of three scenes in the entire game. Black Flag was incredibly impressive in that you got to know every one of the pirates really well (except for Rackham but who cares for him). Which is why you shouldn't entertain for one second, the argument that UNITY couldn't tackle a period as complex as the Revolution since the earlier games did tackle a complex cast of characters fairly well.

In AC2, they kind of overdid it with Rodrigo Borgia periodically showing up and dropping an evil laugh now and again, they followed that again in BROTHERHOOD. In AC3, they likewise gave Haytham oodles of screentime when the only scenes that really matter are the ones with him and Connor. So the games have generally become less economical. In UNITY, all the Templars suck, but Germain is badly used since they build him up to be this really bad guy (he has one sequence where he and Arno interact, then we have all those dying flashbacks where we see Germain speaking and the like) but his motivation is "I'm a Sage and I'm EVIL". Even Borgia had a more complex motivation.

Dev_Anj
04-16-2015, 07:07 AM
I have never heard that saying before in my life.

My point is if Ubisoft wanted to do Paris they should do it in an era that focuses more on monument climbing and sight-seeing. There has to be a reason why we are there. In AC2, the point was to show-the-Renaissance-as-it-was-happening. Like when you meet Rodrigo at the Sistine Chapel at the end, you don't see Michelangelo's Ceiling (its ten years too early) they could have put that there easily but Desilets refused to do it because it would compromise the entire game. He likewise wanted to show Leonardo as this young, handsome gay guy rather than this classic Old Man image (an image by-the-way that has never been successfully attributed to Leonardo). If Unity's developers showed about a quarter of that artistic fidelity and commitment...well if they did they would undoubtedly not even make the game to begin with.


Obviously I didn't use the exact words, but there's definitely a saying like that.

Hold on, how does Unity not have monument climbing and sight seeing? And which era in history has ever focused on monument climbing and sight seeing?

As for AC 2, to be honest it's pretty obvious that they wanted to take a technically half accurate but exaggerated version of Renaissance Italy and make a game about killing people and climbing buildings while doing a bunch of quests. Honestly AC 2 barely had any important events from the Renaissance, the only ones I know are the uprising against the Florentine leader, the assassination of the cardinal, and Bonfire of the Vanities in the DLC. It's pretty amusing that you think Michelangelo's ceiling would ruin the entire game, as even if it were there, it would be in one area only. Showing Leonardo as a young man isn't very remarkable if you consider that he was made young because it was sensible for those years. That being said, historical accuracy was never the major focus, they took a lot of liberties with actual history to fit in their story and to put in details of their own. I'm not an expert on Renaissance Italy's history, but I think someone here will explain how inaccurate AC 2 is.

VestigialLlama4
04-16-2015, 07:35 AM
That being said, historical accuracy was never the major focus, they took a lot of liberties with actual history to fit in their story and to put in details of their own. I'm not an expert on Renaissance Italy's history, but I think someone here will explain how inaccurate AC 2 is.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/gamesblog/2010/nov/19/assassin-s-creeed-brotherhood-history

Historical Fiction (and pay attention to that word) is the thread that hangs the series together. Nobody really cares about the conspiracy stuff, that conspiracy stuff is useful only as metaphor to looking at the history.


It's pretty amusing that you think Michelangelo's ceiling would ruin the entire game, as even if it were there, it would be in one area only.

Its not me who thinks that. It was Patrice Desilets who insisted on keeping it out. He was the one who insisted that AC2 be fairly grounded in terms of solid historical facts.

Farlander1991
04-16-2015, 09:44 AM
Thanks again for the links, Farlander1991. Very interesting. I wonder if you can track it down by yearly release.

You can. Here are the breakdowns for AC3/AC4 by year:

AC3
2012 - 9,013,584
2013 - 2,499,381
2014 - 1,074,598
--total: 12,587,563

AC4
2013 - 7,044,149
2014 - 4,717,375
--total: 11,761,524

Not counting 2015 since it's still in progress (but AC4 got to 12 mil already). Also, as it's only retail, we don't know how much digital sales affect the picture, but a general rule of thumb for AAA projects like this is that the ratio stays the same (but digital sales are more longer running, especially when we talk PC - PC retail sales have already pretty much died out, but digital are supposed to be more thriving).

As you can see, the sales of AC3 dropped down wooping 73 percent between 2012/2013, while AC4 only 33 percent between 2013/2014. This in a way proves the point that sales of AC3 were very heavily influenced by hype (and marketing), and as soon as that all fell flat the interest dropped considerably, while for AC4 (which, btw, had two problems: being the next game after AC3 which was disappointing for many, and being released at a time of a new console generation launch when people are more careful with their purchases) the interest is dropped at a much lower late. 2015 will pass and AC4 is going to become more profitable than AC3, even if dropdown from 2014 in 2015 will be as high as 50% (unlikely to be more than that), it will still outgrow AC3 in sales.

VestigialLlama4
04-16-2015, 10:09 AM
This in a way proves the point that sales of AC3 were very heavily influenced by hype (and marketing), and as soon as that all fell flat the interest dropped considerably,

I suppose so. But hype and marketing alone couldn't have sold that many units either, so obviously some positive word of mouth did play a part in attaining that number. Thanks again for the figures.


while for AC4 (which, btw, had two problems: being the next game after AC3 which was disappointing for many, and being released at a time of a new console generation launch when people are more careful with their purchases)

Well Black Flag was also on Next-Gen releases and bundled with several consoles as well. It was one of the few AAA titles at the time the consoles launched. Still its good that its selling very well.

pacmanate
04-16-2015, 12:24 PM
I suppose so. But hype and marketing alone couldn't have sold that many units either, so obviously some positive word of mouth did play a part in attaining that number. Thanks again for the figures.

Oh it was definitely hype and marketing. They marketed this game as the definitive AC game, the one with most changes, new weapons, a seemingly colder protag. To state the obvious, their job is to sell copies of the game. If this means going OTT to gain revenue then that is what they will do.

Farlander1991
04-16-2015, 12:53 PM
Yeah.

AC3 had extraordinary E3 demos and reception. The Game Informer coverage was the most detailed and extensive out of all GI coverages for AC, and it was a huge event. TV spots were everywhere. It was the most pre-ordered AC game as well, with 10 time more pre-orders than previous titles. The gaming community was really, really, REALLY expecting AC3 to come out.

And the thing is, regarding AC3 feedback, it's negative not because the game is ****. The game is not. Colinal Marines was hyped as hell but as soon as it was released everybody was like, 'woah, woah, woah!'. When you first enter AC3 you don't know what you're getting into. You start with a character you never heard about. You get to the Templar plot twist. You make leap of faith from a skyscraper and meet Daniel Cross in the game for the first time. And the positivity from that beginning, of course, spread as well.

The disappointment that a lot of people felt was not because the game was outright bad and unpolished from the get go. The disappointment people got was gradual, that they realized only eventually. And after that time has passed and it sank in, THEN that particular word of mouth started to spread, hence the rampantly decreased sales at a later date.

That's my opinion on the matter, anyway. Problem with numbers is that you can explain them in lots of different ways, and we don't have enough data on our hands (which Ubi, well, has) for a more concrete conclusion.

VestigialLlama4
04-16-2015, 01:04 PM
And the thing is, regarding AC3 feedback, it's negative not because the game is ****. The game is not. Colinal Marines was hyped as hell but as soon as it was released everybody was like, 'woah, woah, woah!'. When you first enter AC3 you don't know what you're getting into. You start with a character you never heard about. You get to the Templar plot twist. You make leap of faith from a skyscraper and meet Daniel Cross in the game for the first time. And the positivity from that beginning, of course, spread as well.

The disappointment that a lot of people felt was not because the game was outright bad and unpolished from the get go. The disappointment people got was gradual, that they realized only eventually. And after that time has passed and it sank in, THEN that particular word of mouth started to spread, hence the rampantly decreased sales at a later date.

That makes sense and its also true. AC3 does have a weak finish and it is a flawed game definitely (and I don't mean flawed as in all-games-are-flawed, it definitely gets linear in the final sequences). The TYRANNY DLC is a great concept as well and a nice finale for Connor but it could have been far more creative as well.


Problem with numbers is that you can explain them in lots of different ways, and we don't have enough data on our hands (which Ubi, well, has) for a more concrete conclusion.

True enough, but I think you are closer to the mark than others are. Although I do think Black Flag's sales benefit greatly from its availability on next-gen consoles and the fact that it has very little competition there (it's only in 2015 that you have some good Next-Gen titles).


Oh it was definitely hype and marketing. They marketed this game as the definitive AC game, the one with most changes, new weapons, a seemingly colder protag. To state the obvious, their job is to sell copies of the game. If this means going OTT to gain revenue then that is what they will do.

I remember the marketing of AC3 very well too. My point is that marketing alone doesn't create sales. The fact is there are very few video games released in a year compared to number of movies or books, and if you have a good IP with recogniton, you will sell well (rather break even) at the very least.

Hans684
04-16-2015, 01:24 PM
Depends on why you play. In term of story Unity makes Revelations, Liberation(might as well add others like Bloodline), Black Flag and Rogue look like masterpieces since they at least has a reason to relive their lives and that data leads somewhere. Sure their reasons or how they might not be the best.

In Revelations Desmond is in coma(soap opera for most) and have to reach a Sync Nexus to get out by reliving every remaining genetic memory of Altaïr and Ezio(basically making every genetic memory important). Liberation is Templar Propaganda made by Abstergo Entertainment with Ubisoft(yes they exist in their own universe), one of your(as in you) purposes is to fall for the propaganda or discover the truth thanks to Erudito. You are the star of Liberation, you are a random costumer and if you fall for it or not is up to you.

In Black Flag your a flying iPad(research analyst) that's going to make games out of genetic memories(a cover for the real deal and the games is meant as propaganda). You are tasked to look for the Obervatory(not the only goal), Abstergo is also after Crystal Skulls and Blood Vials(from First Civs. time). Four goals and we know they use the Crystal Skull as untraceable communication, the Blood Vials found is researched on and empty Vials is used to collect samples of blood from people who's willing to donate to them for research purposes(that's how we got to play as Adéwalé), Berg went to the Observatory but it had destroyed by an earthquake long before that, Edward memories was used to create Devils Of The Caribbean(it didn't sell well) and as a bonus John from IT is a Sage and was shoot so Abstergo got a some First Civ. DNA without a Blood Vial. In Rogue the Assassins has already destroyed John from IT's body temporally stopping the Phoenix Project(meaning they need to find another(I'll explain later), while that's happening Berg is preparing for a Second Purge against the Assassins and uses Shay's genetic memories as a signal(and scare tactic so they might loose hope), it's about sending a message.

In Unity you search for another Sage but it turn out the bones are in a to bad condition to be used so you wasted your time and accomplished nothing. Games like Unity make games like Revelations shine as bright as suns, the only thing Unity does well is gameplay. The disappointment people had over AC3 also made Revelations shine, I'm not one of them. Connor, Haytham and is one of the best stories we have and what they did wasn't in vain. We saved the world from another solar flare(but Desmond had to die but that was expected. It was the end of his journey). We accomplish something in the other games, Unity is so deep in the ground even Liberation has more purpose. It's a filler with handheld standards that shouldn't be part of the act(It shouldn't exist).

VestigialLlama4
04-16-2015, 01:58 PM
The funny thing is I think future Assassin's Creed games are actually aiming to be more like Revelations. I mean at the end of the day, Revelations is basically a shiny toy. Its a nice scale model of Istanbul to hop, glide and zipline across, use bomb mechanics to test on NPC guinea pigs and other hijinks. As a game, UNITY has the same appeal in a nutshell, a nice shiny Next-Gen toy with a Paris model instead (though it has no cool gimmicks for traversal and crowd manipulation). They are both done by Amancio, and the reason why Revelations works is because it had a better and smarter writer than UNITY did.

The big sprawling story of AC2-AC3 is too much work (and too much research) to do satisfyingly in an annual release. With UNITY and VICTORY the objective is to do one-city sandbox games which is what Istanbul is about. You can say its what Brotherhood is about but that game followed on from AC2 and is properly an expansion of that rather than doing a new city and culture from scratch. Even Revelations works largely because Ezio is there so a lot of character development and creation is pre-done in essence.

UNITY would have benefitted if they didn't set it during the Revolution. That way they don't have to bother too much about period, setting and kind of missions and all kinds of real creative work that makes for challenging storytelling. If they wanted to make a game that's solely about Assassination missions in period then they should have as few distractions as possible.

pacmanate
04-16-2015, 02:21 PM
I remember the marketing of AC3 very well too. My point is that marketing alone doesn't create sales. The fact is there are very few video games released in a year compared to number of movies or books, and if you have a good IP with recogniton, you will sell well (rather break even) at the very least.

Yes but there is a reason AC3 sold well at first then declined significantly. It was because of the marketing. Do you remember the different TV spots? In America, there TV spots made it out that English were terrible and the game was going to be all patriotic. Then you had the UK TV spots which didn't make out the game to be US patriotic nor that English were bad guys.

The marketing team split the ads depending on territory for sales. Market it as patriotic in the US = More people will buy it. Also notice in the US TV spots I recall Connor only killing British soldiers, when it reality, you could kill Patriots or the British in the game, there was no definitive "side" Connor was on.

Then you get down to the media coverage. AC3 had overwhelming news coverage, from GI, IGN, Gamespot, Jeux. Not to mention magazines dedicated huge sections to it, it was on the front covers etc.

There is absolutely no argument that the whole marketing and media coverage drove AC3's sales. Heck I just looked at a 1 minute UK TV spot for AC3 just now and the game looks amazing.

VestigialLlama4
04-16-2015, 02:27 PM
Do you remember the different TV spots? In America, there TV spots made it out that English were terrible and the game was going to be all patriotic. Then you had the UK TV spots which didn't make out the game to be US patriotic nor that English were bad guys.

You expect to me believe that a single TV spot like made the difference in increased sales? The marketing of AC3 wasn't anything extra special or different. It's just that it had a unique setting that was rarely tackled in media (very few movies) and never in games, so obviously that would attract attention.


The marketing team split the ads depending on territory for sales.

That's pretty much Marketing 101, not some superior innovation or anything.


Then you get down to the media coverage. AC3 had overwhelming news coverage, from GI, IGN, Gamespot, Jeux. Not to mention magazines dedicated huge sections to it, it was on the front covers etc.

Well UNITY was covered by those sites too and it hasn't done nearly as good a launch. So what's the difference?

pacmanate
04-16-2015, 02:31 PM
You expect to me believe that a single TV spot like made the difference in increased sales? The marketing of AC3 wasn't anything extra special or different. It's just that it had a unique setting that was rarely tackled in media (very few movies) and never in games, so obviously that would attract attention.



That's pretty much Marketing 101, not some superior innovation or anything.



Well UNITY was covered by those sites too and it hasn't done nearly as good a launch. So what's the difference?

Not a single TV spot, all of them. Anyone who was around here in 2012 will probably remember how everyone noticed differences in the ads. Also, yes, its not Marketing 101, but I dont know any other game that had to make different adverts/trailers to suit a particular region.

Yes Unity was covered by those sites but not nearly as much at all. AC3 was like an info dump heaven, you had new information creeping up every week or so from E3 to release.

Farlander1991
04-16-2015, 02:40 PM
Yes Unity was covered by those sites but not nearly as much at all. AC3 was like an info dump heaven, you had new information creeping up every week or so from E3 to release.

Even before E3. The lead-up to first gameplay trailer, and the whole coverage that started from that moment.

AC3's marketing was insane. None of the other games had a marketing campaign on the level of AC3.

VestigialLlama4
04-16-2015, 02:42 PM
Not a single TV spot, all of them. Anyone who was around here in 2012 will probably remember how everyone noticed differences in the ads.

I was around then and it was just some pointless little tidbit.


Yes Unity was covered by those sites but not nearly as much at all. AC3 was like an info dump heaven, you had new information creeping up every week or so from E3 to release.

Well it might be because AC3 had tons of new features as compared to UNITY so you remember every promo saying something new and from that think it was overpromoted. Black Flag had tons of new information in the run-up to release too (and it got leaked and announced far earlier in the year than AC3 did remember). Same applies to UNITY.

I am not saying AC3 wasn't promoted heavily, but the reasons for that promotion are more basic, New Continent, New Setting, New Protagonist, New Gameplay. And yes while it was billed as the end of the MD story not a single TV spot or trailer touched on MD gameplay or Desmond at all. It's not like the marketing bribed the public or anything. You want a game that was overpromoted. Look at Arkham City or GTA V (which had this huge billboards in many cities, especially LA).

In a way, the shift to new protagonist after Connor with Edward has actually created problems because now there won't be any excitement or sense of "newness". Like when Edward Kenway and Black Flag was announced, it was like, "Okay, Blonde Dude, guess they're going back to white guys again".

Deezl-V
04-16-2015, 03:27 PM
I wouldn't say revelations was my favorite , gameplay wise, but it was my favorite story. It was a more mature, older and wiser ezio. An ezio that was out for the cause and truth of the whole reason why Altair existed. It made ac2 and acb connect so perfectly. That's why I found it to be the most interesting story. It really made me understand the whole purpose of Altair and ezio and the cause.
But other than the horrible den defend, it was an amazing game still to me. And to say his story should have kept him in Italy isn't right. He was seeking something. Just like Indiana Jones, which took him to place to place. So I have to disagree with you OP. I found acR the best story in he franchise because it was more than just being an assassin and working in the brotherhood. It was Altair x 100.

Markaccus
04-16-2015, 03:37 PM
I wouldn't say revelations was my favorite , gameplay wise, but it was my favorite story. It was a more mature, older and wiser ezio. An ezio that was out for the cause and truth of the whole reason why Altair existed. It made ac2 and acb connect so perfectly. That's why I found it to be the most interesting story. It really made me understand the whole purpose of Altair and ezio and the cause.
But other than the horrible den defend, it was an amazing game still to me. And to say his story should have kept him in Italy isn't right. He was seeking something. Just like Indiana Jones, which took him to place to place. So I have to disagree with you OP. I found acR the best story in he franchise because it was more than just being an assassin and working in the brotherhood. It was Altair x 100.

I did like the way it tied up Ezio and Altairs story. It was also a decent way to wake des up from his coma before AC3. The brotherhood aspect was overdone, in the way that it actually started to cost money to do missions in the med oncw you had control of an area. I played through this game twice,and appart from the tutorial den defence mission, i NEVER had to do it. Its easy to avoid if you keep an eye on the notoriety-meter. As you say, the gameplay was average at best, but as a filler until ac3 it did a good job. Pity ac3 was such a let down.

Jackdaw951
04-16-2015, 04:23 PM
The original natives of the Caribbean had all but been wiped out by Europeans by that time. There would have been African slaves, Spanish and Brits. Over time, they have become naturalised caribbeans, but not natives.

http://countrystudies.us/caribbean-islands/5.htm

The indigenous peoples were not wiped out completely. I was in Puerto Rico (my native land) about a year ago, and a taxi driver my gf and I hired to drive us around the sights mentioned he was "indio" ("Indian", as in the mistaken name that became the norm for natives of the New World), and my American friend asked if it was Carib. He reacted as if he had been slapped. "No, yo soy taino." Calling him carib was an insult, and I knew it the moment she said it. The caribes were constantly at war with the tainos. No love lost there.

They often say America is a melting pot. Maybe now it's slowly becoming one, finally. But if you really want to see a melting pot with some generations behind it, go to Latin America. No, the native bloodlines are not wiped out. They are simply blended with others now.

VestigialLlama4
04-16-2015, 04:28 PM
The indigenous peoples were not wiped out completely. I was in Puerto Rico (my native land) about a year ago, and a taxi driver my gf and I hired to drive us around the sights mentioned he was "indio" ("Indian", as in the mistaken name that became the norm for natives of the New World), and my American friend asked if it was Carib. He reacted as if he had been slapped. "No, yo soy taino." Calling him carib was an insult, and I knew it the moment she said it. The caribs were constantly at war with the tainos. No love lost there.

They often say America is a melting pot. Maybe now it's slowly becoming one, finally. But if you really want to see a melting pot with some generations behind it, go to Latin America. No, the native bloodlines are not wiped out. They are simply blended with others now.

Well we do have Taino characters in BLACK FLAG. Opia Apito is Taino, as are the Observatory Guardians (whom Torres massacred at the end) and one of the Templars Lucia Marques wants to complete a genocide on them. If you look at the Assassins, nearly all of them are indigenous peoples, the Mentor is Mayan and several others are Maroons/former slaves. Edward is a Pirate for most of the game remember.

The game focuses more on the pirates of Nassau who largely didn't interact much with the indigenous people.

Jackdaw951
04-16-2015, 04:48 PM
Well we do have Taino characters in BLACK FLAG. Opia Apito is Taino, as are the Observatory Guardians (whom Torres massacred at the end) and one of the Templars Lucia Marques wants to complete a genocide on them. If you look at the Assassins, nearly all of them are indigenous peoples, the Mentor is Mayan and several others are Maroons/former slaves. Edward is a Pirate for most of the game remember.

The game focuses more on the pirates of Nassau who largely didn't interact much with the indigenous people.

Well, there was a lot of "interacting" through the history of the region. That was part of what I was implying. :) Who did it and when is hard to tell now.

And the voice actress for Opia sounds like an Antillean woman speaking English with the typical thick accent. Haha! I'm going to have to look her up now, and see who she is.

They do make the Spanish look like the root of all New World evil in the game, with Lucia Marquez as the personification of it.

Megas_Doux
04-16-2015, 04:49 PM
AC III had the BIGGEST marketing campaign in Ubi´s story by 2012 and that´s an stated fact. The following is based on personal observations though, but I will say up to this day AC III still holds that title. The game was, literally, EVERYWHERE. I mean, dozens of trailers, covers in magazines and adds.. Every time I went to IGN, Youtube, GT and such there was an AC III ad and not only that but also in TV. I was living in the US because of a interchange within colleges, the game was advertised on prime time events like MLB finals, NBA, NFL games, the UEFA Champions league final, the 2012 Euro final, Tennis tournaments, etc etc etc, ETC.

It almost rivaled the likes of any Activition game, hey UBi even won an award on that regard.....

Markaccus
04-16-2015, 04:49 PM
The indigenous peoples were not wiped out completely. I was in Puerto Rico (my native land) about a year ago, and a taxi driver my gf and I hired to drive us around the sights mentioned he was "indio" ("Indian", as in the mistaken name that became the norm for natives of the New World), and my American friend asked if it was Carib. He reacted as if he had been slapped. "No, yo soy taino." Calling him carib was an insult, and I knew it the moment she said it. The caribes were constantly at war with the tainos. No love lost there.

They often say America is a melting pot. Maybe now it's slowly becoming one, finally. But if you really want to see a melting pot with some generations behind it, go to Latin America. No, the native bloodlines are not wiped out. They are simply blended with others now.

Oh absolutely,they were not totally wiped out, as while playing we do encounter a handfull in certain missions, but they were very sparse. I think all but the most educated of historians would have found it difficult to relate to using a carib, arawak or taįno assassins, as there is very little common knowlege compared to N.American tribes. I am not against it, but if we are using a pirate-assassin, then Welsh or South-west english was probably the right choice.

Locopells
04-16-2015, 04:58 PM
Topic, guys...

SixKeys
04-16-2015, 06:43 PM
You can. Here are the breakdowns for AC3/AC4 by year:

AC3
2012 - 9,013,584
2013 - 2,499,381
2014 - 1,074,598
--total: 12,587,563

AC4
2013 - 7,044,149
2014 - 4,717,375
--total: 11,761,524

Not counting 2015 since it's still in progress (but AC4 got to 12 mil already). Also, as it's only retail, we don't know how much digital sales affect the picture, but a general rule of thumb for AAA projects like this is that the ratio stays the same (but digital sales are more longer running, especially when we talk PC - PC retail sales have already pretty much died out, but digital are supposed to be more thriving).

As you can see, the sales of AC3 dropped down wooping 73 percent between 2012/2013, while AC4 only 33 percent between 2013/2014. This in a way proves the point that sales of AC3 were very heavily influenced by hype (and marketing), and as soon as that all fell flat the interest dropped considerably, while for AC4 (which, btw, had two problems: being the next game after AC3 which was disappointing for many, and being released at a time of a new console generation launch when people are more careful with their purchases) the interest is dropped at a much lower late. 2015 will pass and AC4 is going to become more profitable than AC3, even if dropdown from 2014 in 2015 will be as high as 50% (unlikely to be more than that), it will still outgrow AC3 in sales.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/55/eb/ac/55ebaccd614021eac2e1ce4f79bf84e7.jpg

VestigialLlama4
04-16-2015, 06:47 PM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/55/eb/ac/55ebaccd614021eac2e1ce4f79bf84e7.jpg

I was wondering when you would show up and gloat. Have your moment in the sun.

Jackdaw951
04-16-2015, 07:45 PM
Topic, guys...

Oh, sorry . . .

Revelations. This is the game that drove me away from the series, but only for one game (AC3). One and a half, counting the fact I abandoned Revelations midway through. I keep thinking of revisiting it, but I always have better things to play. like Rogue right now. I had not noticed that it became more popular, or discussed. This thread is my first indication of that.

Markaccus
04-16-2015, 07:59 PM
Oh, sorry . . .

Revelations. This is the game that drove me away from the series, but only for one game (AC3). One and a half, counting the fact I abandoned Revelations midway through. I keep thinking of revisiting it, but I always have better things to play. like Rogue right now. I had not noticed that it became more popular, or discussed. This thread is my first indication of that.

It is worth sticking with if you can. It brings a nice close to ezio's story,and Altairs life. If you can earn enough cash and buy all the books, including the ones in the underground city, and find all the hidden books, it just about ties up all ezios loose ends.

Ironically, since Rogue is keeping you from going back, i will tell you i quit rogue before the end due to it being a non-event imo :D